Time for Tough Love for Israel from America and American Jews

[jaysunb]

Like the idiots who conspired with Bush to get us into the Iraq quagmire, the fools in Israel failed to plan ahead. Sure, Israel's superior military might enabled Israel to wreak massive damage. But, like the USA, Israel now finds itself in a situation where it is fighting an entity that fades away, lurking in the shadows, able to put the Israelis on the defensive, just like they did before Israel left Lebanon the last time, six years ago. Like superpower, like surrogate state.

The problem is, the USA wields so much power over Israel that Israeli politics is profoundly influenced by US policy. Bush policy has basically been simple-- let Israel do anything it wants to do. In some ways, the USA is like the parent and Israel, as dependent as it is upon the USA, for billions of dollars a year, in support, is like the child. And parents do LOVE their children. So it's no wonder that the US treats Israel kindly. The problem is, Israel has been misbehaving. Now, kids misbehave and, when they do, parents respond responsibly-- with love-- but responsibly. Sometimes kids misbehave because they misunderstand or get mixed messages from their parents. Sometimes the kids are troubled. Regardless, it is the job and responsibility of good, loving parents, to take the child in hand and deal with the bad behavior. Sometimes tough love is in order.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_rob_kall_060728_time_for_tough_love_.htm

[JHH]

1. "Israeli politics is profoundly influenced by US policy" NOT

US politics is profoundly influenced by Israeli policy

[jaysunb]

2. Tail wagging the dog, you say ?

n/t

[Totally Committed]

3. It's actually EXACTLY the other way around...

sad, but true. AIPAC is a very powerful lobby.

TC

[Jade Fox]

4. That is such nonsense....

Israel does nothing without US approval. It can't. Without the support of the big Western powers, Israel would be in a whole lot of trouble. It is a small country surrounded by enemies.

The idea that Israel leads the US around by the nose is simply anti-semitism.

[BillZBubb]

7. Oh what friggin' bullshit! The old "anti-Semitism" lie again.

Israel is a state. It behaves as any state with certain goals and objectives. It doesn't matter if it is a Jewish state, a Muslim state, or Hottentot state. If it does something wrong, it has done something wrong.

US policy is strongly influenced by what Israel does, not the other way around. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism and much to do with very smart political operations by Israel in the US.

[Jade Fox]

12. I'm talking about the fantasy that a small country....

like Israel could ever dick around a country like the US. I speaks of irrational fears and fantasies. You know, like bigotry. And the bigotry here, IMO, is subconscious hostility toward Jews.

[jaysunb]

17. NO IT'S NOT !

I've yet to see ANY hostility toward Jews on this board over the years. Yet, there's been an abundance of name calling every time Israel --in the name of her good people-- acts irrational.
Being loyal is one thing, but, blindly setting aside ones morals for the simple sake of loyalty is reprehensible.

[Zynx]

26. You have not seen "any" hostility?

That is utter nonsense. I have seen at one point or another posts accusing Jews of manipulating US politics, the media, banking, being involved in 9/11, etc...Granted, these posters are a minority, but my goodness they are there.

[daydreamer]

43. All wars in human history were fought in the name of loyalty, tribalism,

nationalism, patriotism...

[JHH]

20. size does not matter Israel looks after it own interest not the U.S.'s

If Israel thinks it can influence Washington to support its goals it will but it will not fallow Washington if it feel it is not in its own interest.

[bvar22]

44. May I politely refer you to this:

The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty in 1967.


http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/04/23/liberty.attack/

[JHH]

9. Arabs are also Semites

I was taught when I grew up "Never again" and I understood this to mean never again should we stand by and let one nation force a "finale Solution" by trying to kill all of another race who they did not like. Now we have a "jewish State" saying they want just that to kill all of another people as a Final Solution.

[sistersofmercy]

10. True enough

Anyone who would think otherwise is mistaken imo. Of course our government is well aware of what goes on in the region on a day to day bases. I believe even the Islamic fringe element understands it is American foriegn policy and that is why Americans are at risk. You are absolutely correct in asserting "Israel does nothing without US approval."

[WilliamPitt]

11. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING WHOOO!!!

God damn. Thank you, Jade Fox. I've been looking and looking and looking.

See, there's all this anti-semitism talk flying around here, rumors of anti-semitic comments and accusations of anti-semitism.

I had it in the back of my head that at least some of the charges of anti-semitism were full of shit.

So I want to thank you, for proving me right.

"The idea that Israel leads the US around by the nose is simply anti-semitism."

Um...no. That's a discussion of foreign policy and national security. It's a discussion about politics. There's plenty of evidence either way, and a good, healthy debate could ensue.

To call it anti-semitism is flat-out shrieking FUCKING bullshit.

So siddown with that crap.

And thanks again.

[Jade Fox]

13. See post #12.

[WilliamPitt]

15. See

That's a debate. A worthy one.

Some might think that lobbying firms have sway in DC. Tobacco, Insurance, Steel, Union, etc...and Israel does have a powerful lobby, and does have excellent fundraising abilities.

Is that anti-semitism? Or is that a rational, reasoned observation of DC politics?

Take it one step further...

Sure, Israel is beholden to us. But there aren't a lot of politicians willing to forego the campaign money (or the Electoral College votes in New York, especially if they're a Democrat).

Etc.

It goes both ways...and pssssst, this is a DEBATE, and it's good, and calling someone a hateful, despicabe name doesn't help.

There *is* anti-semitism, of course...but there's also DC politics...and Israel exists today because it got good at DC politics a long time ago.

So.

No name calling.

[Jade Fox]

22. When did I call someone....

a hateful despicable name? I said that irrational fears about Israel's power over the US constitute anti-Semitism.

And, when did I deny that Israel has a powerful lobby? :shrug:

"There *is* anti-semitism, of course.." Yes, there is.

[WilliamPitt]

23. To accuse someone of anti-semitism

is to level a hateful, despicable charge against them. It is a serious, serious thing to accuse someone of. If you don't understand the seriousness of the charge, maybe you should pause before using it so easily around here.

Damn. Done with you.

[Jade Fox]

25. Who did I accuse?

I was speaking to the bluntly made statement that the US is profoundly influenced by Israel and not the other way around, a fantasy rooted in hostility toward Jews, IMO. I was not particularly addressing the poster, and perhaps should have made that clear.

[jonnyblitz]

27. You accused whoever believes Israel leads the USA around

by the nose, that is who!! Its in your post #4! DAMN!! :crazy:

[Jade Fox]

31. I stand by that.....

because as you state it, it is a belief rooted in anti-Semitism, IMO.

[WilliamPitt]

28. No one

You floated it out there. That is worse than a straight-out accusation.

And you know it.

And it doesn't take the lightning out of the words.

And you know that, too.

[Jade Fox]

34. You don't know what I know....

Please, I'm trying to be civil here.

I think you are correct that floating it out there and not being specific was squirrelly. So I'll tell you who i'm talking about: I have met Leftist(unfortunately) all of my life who are obsessed with the evil of Israel. They are still alive and well and posting frequently over on Huffington Post. The depth of their obsession with Israel begs an explanation, and in my experience bigotry happens.

[WilliamPitt]

35. Cool

Civility rules.

I think we understand each other. I totally know what you're talking about. I'm glad you understood me.

Cheers, and peace.

[JHH]

39. Well you do not know me and I am the one you accused

I am not jewish but I did stay up all night with my jewish friends during the 6 day war praying that Israel would prevail. A true friend will point out when one's actions are not right and try to help them but standing by while bombs are dropped on children and not speak out is wrong

[JHH]

29. Me in reply to post #1

you said "The idea that Israel leads the US around by the nose is simply anti-semitism."

[Jade Fox]

36. And where are "you" in that statement....

I was responding to that idea, not to you personally.

[jonnyblitz]

37. you are just trying to play innocent and slick talk your way out

of this. you aren't fooling anybody. Financial oversight of lobbying groups is NOT anti-semitism. It might be if only Jewish lobbying groups were scrutinized. ALL groups are looked into at some point in time. Your implication that Jewish groups should be exempt is absurd.

[Jade Fox]

38. No. I stand by what I said.....

though it's clear I should have said it better.

I did not say financial oversight of lobbying groups was anti-semitism (you have an active imagination), and I did not say Jewish lobbying groups should be exempt from scrutiny, nor do I believe either of those things.

[atfqn]

47. I wonder if you also feel that

Israel should be exempt from UN sanctions or the return of the land they stole in 1967 or even the land they continue to steal to this day. Maybe the Palestinians or Lebanese should be exempt from foreign interdiction by a bully. But wait such comments about what is fair and realistic are probably anti-semitic...

[JHH]

40. To call a idea "anti-semitism" is a Bull Sh*t way to debate

The Bush administration is very influenced by Israel and to ignore where some of its policy's come form is missing the big picture

[rman]

51. You accused an idea, obviously not anyone who believes that idea

Of course anyone believing Israel leads the US around by the nose is not anti-semitic.
After all that's not what you said.

Personally i think the idea is wrong, but i don't think the idea is anti-semitic.

[daydreamer]

45. Except that fear is real, not irrational.

[sistersofmercy]

30. Good response

I wish someone would do a thread with an honest open debate. No name calling, just the facts. Is the UN shelter bombing justified? Was the UN bombing in Qana in 96 justified? The oil spill is it justified? Just once I'd like to see someone from the pro-Israel side of the debate write that those actions of the Israeli government were wrong. Just once. I have friends who won't admit it either. It's so frustrating when the debate ends with the question, "well, what should the Israelis do then?" It's not a question of what they should do but rather a question about what they shouldn't do. Frustrating when the debate is so unbelievably skewed.

[HamdenRice]

49. They are not just good lobbyists-there's the Israeli/Cuban feedback loop

It is not just that the organizations that lobby for Israel are skilled fundraisers and lobbyists. There is something more insidious. And just to show that this is not anti-semitism, there is another ethnic lobby that has almost exactly the same insidious advantage. It's a feedback loop enjoyed by both the Israeli lobby and the anti-Castro Cuban lobby.

It works like this: the AIPAC lobby lobbies for foreign aid for Israel. Some of that money indirectly is used to support Israel's various think tanks and institutes in the US, which have links to the lobby, which in turn lobbies for more aid, and on and on.

The same occurs with the Cubans. The US provides direct support for anti-Castro groups in Miami through various pro-democracy grants. These organizations then lobby for more grants, which are in part used for more lobbying.

Israel is itself a victim of this kind of feedback in its domestic politics. Most Israelis are actually not very religious or are conservative or reform Jews. But at its founding a deal was worked out whereby the orthodox received government funding for schools and other projects. These orthodox organizations built a power base, which they use in turn to lobby for ever increasing grants and authority over religious issues. The result is that the religious establishment has disproportionate power but does not reflect the religious views of Israelis.

In each case there are formal restrictions on the use of aid money for lobbying, but of course the grants free up money that is indeed used for lobbying.

Bush is planning to institute exactly this kind of awful feedback mechanism in US domestic politics through the faith-based organization initiative.

So I hope that everyone will agree that pointing out the feedback loop between aid to Israel and Israeli lobbying is not anti-semitic, unless you can convince me that anti-Castro Cubans and right wing American Christians are also somehow semites.

[Jade Fox]

14. To call any criticism of Israel...

anti-Semitism is nonsense too. That's not what I'm saying. Please read what I actually wrote.

[WilliamPitt]

16. This is what you wrote

Israel does nothing without US approval. It can't. Without the support of the big Western powers, Israel would be in a whole lot of trouble. It is a small country surrounded by enemies.

The idea that Israel leads the US around by the nose is simply anti-semitism.

You can go delete that last sentence if you want, but I've read it three times now. The point is hard to miss.

[Jade Fox]

24. Than perhaps I should have said...

that the "irrational" idea that Israel leads the US around by the nose......

There is rational criticism of Israel. And plenty of it.

[sistersofmercy]

19. Hey Will

I chose to ignore the anti-semitism card and only address the truer statement that "Israel does nothing without US approvel." The anti-semitism response is a programmed emotional response. Kind of meaningless really. I noticed once I made it clear that I don't support Hezbollah actions all the pro-Israel camp here no longer responded to my posts about atrocious behavior from the Israeli government. It's very telling imo that an honest debate of assessing blame is not possible.

[WilliamPitt]

21. See post 15

[Marr]

32. I agree with you completely.

Though Israel does have a strong lobby in the US, and many of our top officials have a strong pro-Israel bias, the fact is that Israel is dependent upon the United States and they function as a sort of US franchise outlet, if you will. They aren't just a puppet state, of course- they do act on their own and their policies affect US policy. But the US has alot of influence on Israel.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Listen, controversial interview on this issue but interesting....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5537557

Researchers Say U.S. Policy Influenced by Israel

Listen to this story...

Morning Edition, July 6, 2006 · "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" is a controversial paper written by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, professors at the University of Chicago and Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. They talk to Steve Inskeep about their view of the influence Israel exerts on Washington. It's a view disputed by many.

Windows Media
http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=ME&showDate=06-Jul-2006&segNum=3&NPRMediaPref=WM&getAd=1

Real Audio
http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=ME&showDate=06-Jul-2006&segNum=3&NPRMediaPref=RM&getAd=1

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

33. FWIW, Chomsky on Mearsheimer & Walt's paper

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9999

& the paper in discussion:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

duplicate

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Chomsky

Chomsky said Mearsheimer and Walt were wrong; that Israel is an instrument of American will and not vice versa.

[BillZBubb]

6. Agree with the conclusion, but not the premise.

America and in particular American Jews need to make an honest assessment of Israeli policy instead of kneejerk support for whatever Israel does. That doesn't mean Israel will do the right thing, but at least it will make them think twice in the future. Israeli policy profoundly influences US policy in the Middle East, not the other way around.

Right now, Israel gets a pass on anything and too many people are willing to lie, spin, obfuscate, and leave their morality aside to defend the undefendable.

The sad thing is being critical of Israel on blunders like Lebanon is really in Israel's best interest. Defending such stupidity hurts them gravely.

[jaysunb]

8. I think this is what he's saying....

at least that was my take on it.

[itzamirakul]

50. I think that this "honest assessment of Israeli policy" by American

Jews is probably the most difficult choice of all for them to make. And I empathize with them. It is a hard pill to swallow to say that some of your own are wrong to the point of being criminally wrong.

All of this goes back to the question that I have been asking for a few days now...that of dual citizenship. When does dual citizenship affect American policy?

[originalpckelly]

18. I think this child needs a trip to the woodshed...

to learn about the switch.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. The Op Ed Writer Patronizes American Jews

I don't think they are a huge monolith that needs to be told how to think or act on any issue and to suggest they should tell a foreign nation how to conduct its affairs is offensive.

Oh, I wouldn't hesitate to replace Jews with any religious , ethnic, or racial group.

[katinmn]

46. Rob Kall, the writer, is also Jewish and

he believes that people who favor diplomacy over aggression need to speak up. OpEd News has been doing a great job of airing all kinds of views on the Israel-Lebanon war.

The national dialogue on US-Israel policy is long overdue. Too bad it took a crisis of monumental proportion to get to this point.

Hats off to Rob Kall!

[jaysunb]

48. And, to you, as well...

:toast: