Is anyone here a "cyber-soldier" for Israel?

[Harper_is_Bush]

As per this article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html

?

[Ezlivin]

1. Poisoning the well

With all these "propagandists" online our chances at a free and open forum are gone.

It's a subtle way to kill the internet's usefulness.

[rockymountaindem]

2. How is this killing the internet?

Their words aren't stopping you from speaking.

[Ezlivin]

4. An example: Amazon book reviews

You go to Amazon to check out a book by a progressive. It has gotten many nasty reviews. Do you buy it? Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't. And there are other shoppers who may not be as insightful as you, who don't realize that the reviews are tilted by an organized conservative attack.

You go to a forum and everyone is supporting X. You support Y, but seem to be hopelessly outnumbered. Do you stay and argue your point or do you move along?

If you knew you were entering a truly free forum and most people opposed what you had to say, you may reconsider your position. You may look at the sheer numbers of people opposing you and re-think your ideas.

Did you come into this forum expecting to hear from people naturally motivated to speak out or to hear people paid to be propagandists?

No one stopped the Democrats from protesting, but that didn't mean that the organized protest that the Republicans put together in Florida in 2000 wasn't effective.

How do you hear the people's voice?

How do you separate the propaganda from a genuine desire for change?

If the internet is only good at spam mail and propaganda, it is ruined.

[rockymountaindem]

6. I don't think you can make propaganda in a discussion forum

because everybody is on an equal footing to read, analyze and reply, as well as bring in outside research from other sites etc. Propaganda, in my view, take advantage of the fact that people don't know any better, but in a discussion forum if you don't know any better that's one's own problem. I do understand what you're saying about the Amazon book reviews though.

[Ezlivin]

7. Chilling effect

I agree that we are all on an "equal footing to read, analyze and reply" (as you did).

But there is the chilling effect of propagandists. For example, let's say that you make a critical statement concerning Israel's actions. And then you are "jumped" on by a bunch of people. They tear you up one side and down the other. What are the chances that you will stay and fight it out? It is very wearying to fight in a pitched battle, particularly when your opponent is well-organized, motivated and paid. You are just arguing out of your own motivation (let's say it's sharing what you believe is the truth).

If every time you open your mouth you are shouted down by a chorus, how long will you hold out?

I believe that the presence of thousands of paid propagandists has a chilling effect on our free speech.

[rockymountaindem]

10. Ok, I understand what you're saying now

Perhaps the tactic of swarming is unfair, and will shut down those who are not really dedicated to getting out their point of view. Of course, one can always ignore harassers, or try to fight with all of them, but I agree with you that most people will not do that. So yes, I can see why this would be a problem if carried out effectively. I guess there's nothing anybody can do about it though.

[Mandate My Ass]

3. I don't think anybody is buying the spin

that these posters spew here line for line parroting the MSM.

[chimpymustgo]

21. But the onslaught is changing the dynamic of places like DU.

That article explains a LOT. Out of nowhere...spammers...VERY bloodthirsty, very war-mongering, very un DU-like. I hope this shit will be over soon, and they'll crawl back into their caves.

Peace.

[CTyankee]

28. What is going on is the First Amendment in action on the web

Like it or not, that is what is happening. So what? If Israelis are able to find spots where anti=semitism is being preached, why should they not ask their followers to respond with good arguments?

How many posts have you responded to that say "DU this poll! It's being freeped!" I know I have responded to practically every one.

What is this? Do we want to shut down any opinions from Israel? Sometimes I think so many DUers just want Israel to go away...

[Mojorabbit]

5. I have a Jewish friend

who sent me talking points. I am so pissed off. If we cannot have an intelligent conversation using our own minds then I don't want to have the conversation. I don't need outside talking points. I have my own views. I think it is dishonest esp between long time friends. I won't let a govt determine my conversation.

[BooScout]

8. Not me...........but there was one here yesterday.....

They were quickly tombstombed for posting falsified photographs.

[Jim Sagle]

9. Omigod....jooooooooooooos on the Web! Sssssscary!!!!!!!!!

:scared:

[Harper_is_Bush]

11. Jews on the web is scary? Why?

Don't be so hateful.

[Jim Sagle]

12. I guess I should have included the sarcasm tag.

[Harper_is_Bush]

13. No, I got it. I just thought you'd like to explain your sarcasm.

The scary thing is hardly "Jews on the web", or as you called them: "jooooooooos".

The scary thing is an organized movement dedicated to spreading propaganda.

And it includes evangelical Christian groups as well, according to the article.

Why is it necessary to attempt to manipulate public opinion? If people act responsibly and honestly there's no need for that. I suppose in light of the outright desctruction of Lebanon in a punitive manner and the 25-1 civilian death ration it becomes necessary to mobilize thousands of internet "soldiers" with internet information packs and megaphone software so they can go forth and repeat the mantra that Israel has the right to defend themselves over and over and over, until people buy the lie that all their actions in Lebanon are self-defense.

[Jim Sagle]

15. You're being manipulative right now - by trying to rule pro-Israel

commentary as suspect and under remote control.

I'll have none of it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

18. And you are implying an anti-semite agenda with your "jooooooos"

comment, portraying those who might find it disturbing that an organized internet campaign by thoudands to sway opinion in favor of Israel (complete with internet trolling software and talking points) as being intollerant of Jews.

I'll have none of that.

[originalpckelly]

14. Forget actual Israelis, we have our own lovely bunch in America:

http://giyus.org/

I really thought this was a site put up by a bunch of antisemitic Arabs, but this is REAL. That is pretty fucked up. 10,000 people in America are now actively working to sway public opinion towards favor for the foreign government. If this was any other government in the world, it would be met with open criticism.

[theHandpuppet]

16. Respectfully, I have to disagree with you on this issue

To me this is an issue of free speech. If 10,000 Americans want to sign up as a grassroots lobby for Israel I see that as their right. This is one reason I'm a supporter of the ACLU -- it doesn't matter whether or not I agree with someone's views, their right to express those views is part of what makes this a democracy.

[jonnyblitz]

17. you missed the point of concern. the poster is concerned

with the Israeli government involvment with this. one country trying shape opinion in another country(USA).

[theHandpuppet]

19. This wasn't clear on my visit to the website

I wonder if that is deliberate? Still, it doesn't change my opinion.

[jonnyblitz]

20. I am not all up in arms about it. I find it amusing more than

anything. I am sure if there was software for a cause i was interested in I would be all over it. :shrug:

[bvar22]

24. Would it change your view ....

...if the astro-turfers were PAID by a foreign government?

Would it change your view if someone (government, corporation) employed TEAMS of PROFESSIONALS to mis-represent themselves as independent grassroots on anonymous forums?

[theHandpuppet]

27. Well, whether or not it bothers me is not the point

I suppose what would bother me the most is the matter of misrepresenting oneself on anonymous forums. But I also know that happens all the time -- even here on DU. Forums all over the are rife with plants and paid shills for corporate interests, political parties, etc. I'd be more concerned about such activites being waged and funded by our own government than some foreign entity.

Still, the fact that some lying cowards wish to misrepresent themselves on a forum doesn't change my opinion about freedom of speech. I know it's a touchy subject and one could argue strongly (and rightly) against my own opinion, but once we start making exceptions with regard to free speech we open the door to censorship -- know what I mean? It's a tough one.

[bvar22]

33. It is a tough one.

I agree.
They are here on DU. With their resources, they would be foolish not to try to peddle their "One World run by Corporations and enforced by Military Might" propaganda here.

All anyone can do is recognize the patterns and talking points.

[Joanne98]

22. It's not working.

[PCIntern]

23. No...but

hazardous duty pay required for DU assignment I understand...

[Zhade]

25. Yes, but I'm sure they'll deny it.

NT!

[formercia]

26. What troubles me

is that when someone makes an anti-zionist comment, it seems to bring out a counter attack by people claming it to be anti-semetic, when in fact, Zionism has less to do with religion and more to do with an ideology, and a whacked out one at that.

[CTyankee]

29. What is whacked out about Zionism?

I'd really like to know.

Thank you.

[jonnyblitz]

30. google "zionism" and find out!

:scared:

[PCIntern]

31. There you go again...

a non-answer...

you go around posting hyperbole...google 'anarchist'...

[CTyankee]

32. Care to narrow this a little? I really want to know why

pro Israel policies disturb you. Really.

If you are not of Middle East background, I'd really like to know what your problem is with the existence of Israel. Care to tell me?

[formercia]

34. I have no problem with Israel

or their right to defend themselves. It's the right-wing fascist element that is doing to the palestinians what the Nazis did to them. Have they no shame. Have they not learned from history?

[Truthiness Inspector]

35. Is anyone here a "cyber-soldier" for Hezbollah? n/t

[Jara sang]

36. I'm not but suspect some here are.

[pinto]

37. Locking.

The conspiratorial overtones introduced to the thread are inflammatory.