When is the charge of anti-Semitism legitimate?

[yurbud]

Whenever someone criticizes Israel at all even if it is well within the bounds of debate that occur in Israel itself, someone cries 'anti-semitism.'

That is bullshit.

Just about all of us would agree that someone who is openly a nazi or tries to say the Holocaust didn't happen or wasn't that bad is clearly an anti-semite.

While it's easy to define what clearly ISN'T, criticism of Israel an Israeli might make himself, and what clearly IS, being pro-nazi, a definition or examples that are reasonable for day to day use are needed.

As a goy, there is a perplexing element of this to me. I'm around 40 and white. My whole life, I and the friends I grew up with never thought of Jewishness as dramatically different from having Italian, Polish, or Norwegian ancestry. So when someone accuses me of anti-semitism, it doesn't embarrass me or make me feel guilty, it's like someone saying I'm anti-Irish or anti-left-handed. It either confuses me or says more about the person making the accusation.

Anyway, I'm wondering if someone has a definition or examples of anti-semitism that's useful for real life situation or that you have run into in real life.

[ulysses]

1. use of the term "Jew-boy" for one.

[Ravenseye]

29. I call one of my jewish friends that all the time

...in return he calls me Raghead...

But yeah. Derogatory words, used to hurt, (jewboy, kike, hebe, etc) would be a good example of anti-semitism.

[fujiyama]

60. But you use it with a friend

I'm guessing you wouldn't go up to a random Jew and call him that.

[Ravenseye]

101. Of course not

That was sort of my point. Words can be used in joking relationships that otherwise are extremely harmfull.

[B Calm]

105. Next time when he works a little overtime don't call him

a money grubbing little Jew Boy because that will offend him....

[Ravenseye]

107. LOL

Sorry. I just had to laugh at that...picturing me say that too him. I think he'd actually laugh. It'd be interesting to hear his comeback to it. Honestly, much worse has been said between the two of us, to the point where we've talked about how if people heard us in public with the things we say it wouldn't be good.

I mean we say really bad things. Things that if you didn't know our relationship would make what Mel Gibson said pale in comparison. As it is we've made ourselves laugh so hard sometimes that it's actually been painful. I think it's a good way for us, in private, to really take power out of those words that had hurt us both in the past coming from actual racists and assholes.

[leftofthedial]

2. when the accuser has no real arguments to counter the criticism

it is the same as calling someone who opposes the bush cabal "anti-American"

[yurbud]

4. ah! wrapping yourself in the flag--just a different one

[jonnyblitz]

5. they are trying to blur the lines like the bushbots do.

by implying if you are against what Israel is doing you are a jew hater or whatever. almost EVERY damn one of the supporters of Israel's actions on here does that crap. criticizing Israel = hatred of jews. people are getting sick of it and nobody pays attention or takes them serious when an actual instance of anti-semitism does occur. A few of the harshest critics here at DU are jews, for chrissake!! They are fouling their own nest in the long run, anyways.

[yurbud]

7. ironically, when it was JUST Israel advocates doing it, it worked better

But Bushies have thrown around anti-American and traitor so much that they spoiled the move.

Kind of like 'fascist' in the 60s and 70s. We wasted the accusations power on Nixon, who looks like George McGovern compared to Bush.

[CTyankee]

75. No, I heard a Jewish commentator saying today that

liberal, pro peace Israelis are behind Israel in this current effort, so what is being presented here on DU is not what is going on in Israel.

I think the big question is (and I will ask it of you): What if what you are recommending as the proper action of Israel results in the destruction of Israel? Is that something you would like to see?

[Zhade]

83. Um, then he's lying or ignorant.

Btselem, for example, is NOT in favor of Israel's indiscriminate bombing of innocent Lebanese to get at Hezbollah.

This "Jewish Commentator" didn't happen to be a PNAC member, did he?

[CTyankee]

102. I think he was on Al Franken's show. n/t

[barb162]

108. I bet Btselem isn't for Hezbollah's rockets hitting Israel

You know, that indiscriminate bombing and killing of innocent Israelis by Hezbollah with their rockets hitting any old place in Northern Israel. Hezbollah doesn't care whether they hit Israeli hospitals, schools, houses, innocent little kids, etc.

Your information didn't happen to come from Electonic Intifada, did it?

[respublicus]

81. when they are against Semites - the Semites are mainly Arabs though

so European colonists exterminating the Arabs in Palestine are the real anti-Semites?!?!?

[eleny]

3. Is there any distinction between Jewish people and the gov't of Israel?

I read that there were Jews in Israel who are protesting Israel's actions now. If they can disagree, I suppose people outside can disagree.

[yurbud]

6. I think that group doesn't have the political clout here the others do

[eleny]

11. I'm not talking about clout

I'm just bringing up the point that there are Israeli Jews who disagree with their government's actions. So I'm concluding that there are times when people can disagree with Israel if its own citizens do.

Not exactly speaking to your point. But it's been on my mind for days now.

But about your "clout" point. I read one article that quoted from the Israeli peace movement about how it can take some time for people to protest and it picks up steam. Wait, I'll find it. .... Here is the paragraph:
"Many leaders of Israel’s traditional peace movement, such as the anti-settlement group Peace Now, opposed the rallies, some labeling them as “fringe.” But a protest spokesman noted that in the Lebanon invasion of 1982 it took more than 10 days of warfare to bring out this many protesters, marking the first crack in the official pro-war “consensus.” "
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/demo-j24.shtml

yurbud, even if the Israeli protesters don't have a lot of clout, they're still voicing opposition. And this is significant to me. It gives me permission to look at what Israel is doing in a more objective way. I can look at it like any other government and judge its actions. I can determine for myself if they're acting responsibly given that we live in a world filled with nukes. Are they in cahoots with the Bush administration to try and reshape the Middle East? I can ask questions like that more openly and not be concerned about being called antisemitic. It can't be ignored that Israeli Jews have protested their government. I want to know their reasons. If I agree with them, antisemitism is a moot point.

[yurbud]

31. that substantially agrees with my original post

[eleny]

34. Thanks, yurbud

I didn't think we were tangling. Sorry if my tone made it appear that way. My fault. I just figured that no matter how small in number the protesters are, it's a significant deal that they exist in Israel at all. Another point to your favor is the fact that Israel has more than one political party. Within Israel there's disagreement on how to run their country. So, although anti semites exist and probably even abound, I think it's okay to disagree with Israeli policies based on honest disagreement and arguments that stick to facts.

I hope this helps.

[yurbud]

39. I actually like the way they have their parliament set up better than ours

you have a lot of parties who have to put together a working coalition.

I thought ours was one of the worst until I realized that the Brits have us beat--whichever party wins a plurality gets to run things, however small their numerical lead is.

We should have something like proportional representation within states, instant runoff voting, and all those kinds of reforms that would expand democracy.

[WillyT]

12. I Heard Somebody On NPR The Other Day...

Don't remember who, or what show (was driving to work), but they said that the debate in Israel about the current hostilities, is far more robust and healthy than any debate here in the U.S. In fact, he posited that because American jews are much more one sided in their pro-military responses in debate about defending Israel, that it emboldens the right-wing military side of the Israeli equation (In Israel) to the detriment of debate in the U.S., and the peace-activists in both countries.

Thought it was a most interesting point.

:shrug:

[eleny]

15. Some people in the Bay Area of San Fran were protesting

Not a robust response from Americans.

[msongs]

8. psssst! Jewish people are NOT the only semites -define yer terms pls

"anti semite" is frequently code for anti-jewish or anti-israeli.

condemning hezbollah, or arabs, or palestinians can be anti-semitism, depending on the charges leveled.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/howarddean2008.htm

[yurbud]

9. those people should start using it to confuse the other accusers

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. Here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1762510

[Donald Ian Rankin]

53. No, it can't.

Antisemitism means "prejudice against jews", not "prejudice against semitic people". Hatred of arabs is not antisemitism.

It's one of many words, like piety, religion, adventure and decimate, that doesn't mean precisely what its linguistic roots might lead one to believe.

[Meshuga]

86. Go look in a dictionary...

Or check the link provided by in_cog_ni_to just above my post.

[Behind the Aegis]

94. psssst!

The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

---snip---

The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Assyrians). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."<8>

In recent decades some groups have argued that the term should be extended to include prejudice against Arabs, Anti-Arabism, in the context of accusations of Arab anti-Semitism; further, some, including the Islamic Association of Palestine, have argued that this implies that Arabs cannot, by definition, be anti-Semitic. The argument for such extension comes out of the claim that since the Semitic language family includes Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic languages, and the historical term "Semite" refers to all those who consider themselves descendants of the Biblical Shem, anti-Semitism should be likewise inclusive. This usage is not generally accepted. (emphasis mine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism">source

[tnlefty]

10. What is a goy?

ignorance admittedly showing :blush:

[TahitiNut]

13. That's Yiddish for 'gentile.'

:shrug:

[BayCityProgressive]

14. as I posted in another thread

there is nothing anti-semitic about criticizing Israeli policies. I am pro-Israeli and I criticize many things they do. Criticizing Israel for the same things other nations do, or criticizing Israel and NEVER anyone else, or calling Israel an apartheid state a nazi state, satanic, or some of the other things I have seen here could be seen as anti-semitic. By that logic, the US is a nazi apartheid state as well. I don't happen to believe that but maybe some here do believe that is what both nations are. In that case it could be a real argument. Personally I have criticized expanding Israeli settlements, The laws that are liek our Patriot Act that allow them to hold people without charges, and the power of the Orthodox community over other forms of Judaism in the country. Criticism is good if it is constructive. Just my perspective.

[tnlefty]

18. I don't think this was meant as a response to me. I asked a question

about a word, goy, that was used in the OP and it's meaning.

[sistersofmercy]

40. Part of your response makes sense but

How can you possibly claim those criticizing Israel aren't criticizing other governmnets as well? Furthermore if I only criticize Saudi Arabia's monarchy that makes me anti-Arabic? If I only criticize the Chinese governmnet that makes me a racist? If I had only criticized Pinochet that makes me anti-hispanic or anti-chilean? Please stop using weak arguments to justify falsely accusing critics of the Israeli government as anti-semitic. It's just absurd. It ranks up there with the innocent civilian population of the weakened country Lebanon should pay for a fringe element hiding and operating in their country, a defense for the bombing the crap out of the country's infrastructure. I think many here have plenty to say about injustice no matter where it comes from.

[Zhade]

82. Check out Israeli Arabs' voting rights status...

...and tell me it's not an apartheid state.

Even if it's not and one calls it that, it's STILL not anti-Semitic. To be anti-Semitic, one has to hate and hurt Semitic peoples just for being of Semitic origin.

[barb162]

109. Do you see Israeli Arabs fleeing to neighboring Arab states?

They don't. Why do you suppose that is? Because Israel is not an apartheid state and they have far more freedom in Israel than they would in surrounding Arab states.

If you happen to have a link suggesting Israeli Arabs are fleeing Israel, would you like to provide the link.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. It Really Is An Offensive Term

As a mixed religion person it gives me chills but that's just my own opinion.

[yurbud]

19. sorry. I like almost all the insults for whites better than white or

Caucasian.

Anglo
Gringo
Gabaucho
haoli
tabob
gaijin

Cracker and peckerwood don't sound nice, and if someone ever says honky, they have actually made themselves look goofy--like calling someone bozo.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Why Not Just Call A White Person A White Person Or Caucasian?

[yurbud]

35. white=white bread. Caucasian is like hispanic, doesn't sound like

anything a real person would apply to themselves.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. I Try to Call People What They Prefer To Be Called

That's all.

[yurbud]

95. please call me the supreme cacausoid, lord of all that is caca

[TahitiNut]

48. You regard "goy" as offensive?

It really isn't. In Hebrew, it (literally) means "nation." It has been adopted in Yiddish to mean any non-Jew. It's only offensive, imho, when spoken with offensive intonation (sometimes followed by spitting), just like the word "Jew" is only offensive in such a context.

Closer to being regarded as offensive would be the words "shiksa" and "shegitz" which are slang for female and male gentiles, the former stereotypically being blonde-haired and blue-eyed. Having once had good neighbors who were conservative Jews, I often volunteered to go to the store or pay the paperboy for them on their Sabbath ... and somewhat jokingly called myself their "shabbas goy" occasionally. I surely didn't regard it as offensive - just neighborly and supportive.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I Come From A Mixed Family

Lots of intermarriages.


I just prefer the word Christian or gentile. My fiancee is Christian or Roman Catholic. She's not a "goyisha maidela" or "shiksa".



But a person can call other groups whatever he or she wants I guess.

[Balbus]

17. Well, when a thread like the one attached below....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1755758

a thread debunked and thoroughly proven to be full of lies, yet is the highest recommended thread on DU today, you can be assured that anti-semitism is alive and well on DU. A lot of people on this board are looking for any reason, whether that reason is true or not, to hate the Jews.

[yurbud]

20. that was an odd post--are you sure people weren't voting up the debunking?

[BayCityProgressive]

22. I agree

people fall all overthemselves to apologize or make excuses for Iran, Hezbollah ect. You can't even be criticial of Iran on this board without 50 people posting "what you want to bomb Iran now..your Republican...your Zionist..PNAC enabler." and all the other knee jerk DU bullshit.

[tocqueville]

43. a bad informed political statement ISN'T anti-semitism

the poster quoted information from the ADL and probably jumped to conclusions. It's bad research. He didn't call Jews NAMES for their "racial" belonging.

the little trick of "anti-semitism" is pulled EVERY TIME somebody even dares to QUESTION Israeli assertions.

see the definitions of anti-semitism in Wikipedia in my post below. Calling somebody "antisemite" because one criticizes Israel's policies is as preposterous as calling somebody "Anti-American" becauses one criticizes Bush's war in Iraq. Note that the neocons use exactly the same trick, adding "they hate us for our freedoms", which is of course ridiculous when it comes from countries enjoying the same freedoms than the US and sometimes even more...

[oberliner]

56. but there is antisemitism sometimes, isnt there?

People present criticims of Israel that have no trace of antisemitism. In some cases, they will be wrongly accused of antisemitism and that incorrect accusation should be attacked and identified as unfair when it happens.

Other times the criticisms will pass without any accusation of antisemitism.

People also sometimes present criticisms of Israel that are laden with antisemitism. Those remarks are rightfully identified and should be condemned.

I am reminded of when Ann Coulter says that she isn't allowed to question anything the New Jersey widows say or else she gets accused of being insensitive.

Then she goes on to be insensitive in her remarks criticizing those women. People call her out on it, and she says, see, I told you I can't critize them without being called insensitive.

Some disingenous debators will use this same tactic in regards to Israel. Fortunately this does not happen on this board. Seeing it in the outside world, however, may lead some folks to a hightened sensitivity to the issue.

[tocqueville]

57. This phenomenon happens everytime "races" are involved

there were bigoted remarks about blacks on DU during the Katrina episode. Sometimes I read stange stuff about the French on DU too. Prejudices are very hard to fight and sometimes people can spread prejudices without even knowing they are doing it.

This "works" on all ends. A justified political attack on a Muslim leader can be be called "anti-arabic" as a mean of defense. The cartoon story for example was used that way. I am quite persuaded that the people that produced the Mohammed cartoons weren't racists. But it was perceived so.

[jonnyblitz]

45. so anybody who hit 'recommend" on that thread is anti semitic?

:rofl: :rofl:

[Balbus]

63. Not all - some are just stupid.

[SammyBlue]

21. When your criticisms sounds word for word like neo-nazi hate speech

I believe the anti-semetic claim is justified.

Read the criticism here, then go to one of those scum suckers websites and see what I'm talking about. Almost word for word.

When I was and where I grew up:

Repeatedly called kike, Jew bastard.
Being told Hitler didn't go far enough.
Having swasitkas drawn on my lockers and etched into the paint of my car.
Being told that Jews can't pay sports and that I am embarassing the school for playing.

In college:

Being told Jews weren't allowed in a fraternity chapter
Being told that Jews were destroying the world and Hitler was right
Being threatened with physical violence because I was a "fucking dirty heb." (I'm 6'2" and bench 550. . .I wasn't worry).
Reporting the anti-Semetism and being told by officials that it wasn't provable because it was "my word against someone else" and "you can't prove it happened."
Only getting University action when I threatened legal action and public action with the JDL.
Being told by black students that "you people stole me from Africa. I hate Jews."
Having Neo-nazi shit posted, stapled and glued to the doors and windows of my Hillel Chapter.

In adult life:

Being called a Christ Killer by the Protestants in my neighborhood
Being told that people didn't want me around because "shouldn't you be around your own kind."
Having my z28 egged and vandalized with anti-semetic keying at night.
Being told by missionaries that "I have refused to accept Jesus and I am going to hell because of it." I know that's standard but when it's peppered with "Jews are going to hell because of being Jewish," it's anti-semetism.

Should I continue?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Hmmm

"Being told that Jews can't play sports and that I am embarassing the school for playing."


Sandy Koufax was a pretty good pitcher.

Harris Barton was a pretty good offensive lineman.


Dolph Schayes was a pretty good basketball player





Lots of other examples I'm sure.


Oh, I'm a mixed religion kid but I'm sorry you experienced all that.

[Cleita]

27. Where did you grow up?

In the Aryan Nation compound?

I have known some anti-semitism among non Jews but nothing extreme like you mention and I went to school, worked with and socialized with Jewish friends. I am also 60+ years so any anti-semitism I encountered in those years was very few and far between.

[SammyBlue]

28. Podunk little mountain town in Upstate New York

where intolerance was ingrained and everyone was related to everyone else.

[TahitiNut]

30. Just because a neo-nazi might say "I'll have a ham and cheese sandwich"

... doesn't mean anyone who orders a ham and cheese sandwich is an anti-semite. This seems to be a distinction lost on some people who'd never ask for a ham and cheese sandwich.

:shrug:

[SammyBlue]

36. Way to deflect that the arguments sound word for word the same.

And you're comparing apples and oranges, like you always do, Tahitinut.

[TahitiNut]

55. Your uncivil and slanderous retort suggests a failure to comprehend.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1763289&mesg_id=1763957

[sistersofmercy]

50. Well that's terrible and inexcusable

Sorry that has happened to you but criticism of the Israeli government by no means makes me antisemitic. No doubt antisemitism exists you'll hear no argument from me about that. Sad but true is for every outspoken antisemitic there are more who are hidden. Here in St Louis I know someone who went to a party thrown by a very prominent family at Christmas time and at the party there was one prominent Jewish person. The hostess got drunk at the party and began doing the "heil hilter" thing. I heard about it the next day. It was appalling and unfortunately the poor jewish individual wasn't in a position to do or say a thing about it. I was always puzzled by his continued association with such obvious antisemitics though. And no I'm not blaming the victim. I make no excuses for hateful behavior of any kind.

[yurbud]

96. In NW where I grew up, people were only dimly aware of who was Jewish

The mayor of Portland and later governor was Jewish, and I didn't realize it until much later.

Maybe since back east is the point of entry for Europeans people keep closer track of that stuff.

[Cleita]

25. Ignore it. It's the new accusation the pro-Israeli warhawks like

to make against anyone who would question the right wing politics of the present Israeli government. It's the same as being called unpatriotic to question the warmongering of our administration. It just isn't true but it's meant to shut you up because otherwise they can't defend their position.

[cali]

26. Perhaps what we

can agree on is that criticism of israel, no matter how harsh is not antisemitic- but of course there are exceptions even to that rule. Comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto may not be antisemitic, but it rubs up against it. Accusing Israelis of being Nazis, aside from violating Godwin's law, also comes close. I'm not even Jewish and I can see that.
A few days ago we had a flurry of infatuation with the less than esteemed Pat Buchanan. I made the point that admiringly quoting Pat Buchanan on Israel, is akin to fawning over David Duke on Affirmative Action. We've had threads suggesting that Israel should be eradicated, and all the citizenry moved to Montana, or New Jersey or wherever. That's antisemitic. Accusing Israel of masterminding 9/11 and warning Jews to steer clear? Antisemitic. The US a puppet government of Israel? Yep, Antisemitic. Jews overrepresented in gov't, media, financial circles? Antisemitic.

Unfortunately, there is a nexus where criticism of Israel bleeds into antisemitism. I think the answer for me, is to assume that people aren't being antisemitic even if they're unwittingly using language that is.

[Cleita]

32. Pat Buchanan is anti-semite and proud of it. Make no mistake

about it. He wrote a book claiming that the Nazis weren't all wrong and the Holocaust was exaggerated and not as bad as we were made to believe. Not only is he anti-semitic but he tried to rewrite history because of it.

[tocqueville]

33. antisemitism is hostility towards Jews for their ETHNICAL background

Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution. The highly explicit ideology of Adolf Hitler's Nazism was the most extreme example of this phenomenon, leading to a genocide of the European Jewry. Anti-Semitism takes different forms:

Religious anti-Semitism, or anti-Judaism. Before the 19th century, most anti-Semitism was primarily religious in nature, based on Christian or Islamic interactions with and interpretations of Judaism. Since Judaism was generally the largest minority religion in Christian Europe, Jews were often the primary targets of religiously-motivated violence and persecution from Christian and, to a lesser degree, Islamic rulers. Unlike anti-Semitism in general, this form of prejudice is directed at the religion itself, and so generally does not affect those of Jewish ancestry who have converted to another religion, although the case of Conversos in Spain was a notable exception. Laws banning Jewish religious practices may be rooted in religious anti-Semitism, as were the expulsions of Jews that happened throughout the Middle Ages.

Racial anti-Semitism. With its origins in the early and popularly misunderstood evolutionary ideas of race that started during the Enlightenment, racial anti-Semitism became the dominant form of anti-Semitism from the late 19th century through today. Racial anti-Semitism replaced the hatred of Judaism as a religion with the idea that the Jews themselves were a racially distinct group, regardless of their religious practice, and that they were inferior or worthy of animosity. With the rise of racial anti-Semitism, conspiracy theories about Jewish plots in which Jews were somehow acting in concert to dominate the world became a popular form of anti-Semitic expression.
New anti-Semitism. Many analysts and Jewish groups believe there is a distinctly new form of late 20th century anti-Semitism, called the New anti-Semitism, which is associated with the Left, rather than the Right, borrowing language and concepts from anti-Zionism.<1> <2> <3> <4> Some of these analysts identify anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, arguing that anti-Zionism "advocates denial of the right to self-determination of the Jewish people."<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

criticizing (even wrongly) Israel for its POLICIES isn't anti-semitism. It becomes anti-semitism when you attack Israel with today mostly racial motives (the religious ones play a lesser role, at least in the West). If you say that "Olmert is an asshole because he is shelling Lebanon", it's a blunt political statement. If you say that "Olmert is a dirty Jew drinking the blood of Christian children", it's anti-semitism.

[TahitiNut]

46. While I wholly agree with your (comprehensive) answer ...

... it seems quite obvious that there are some who regard the actions of the Israeli government as the equivalent of secular sacraments in Judaism, or at least some sub-sect, and the policy pronouncements of Israeli 'leadership' as approaching infallible. In such erasure of lines between the secular and sectarian, it's not surprising that people possessed of such a viewpoint would regard antipathy toward the actions or policies of the Israeli political leadership as antisemitic. Sadly, it grossly trivializes antisemitism.

[tocqueville]

54. you are pointing at the bottom of the problem

but I am afraid it would be completely misunderstood by some. I tried once to discuss something similar in the Israel/Palestinian forum and of course was rapidly implicitely labeled as a neonazi...

[Liberal Veteran]

37. Something I've been wanting to point out about this.

The rote cry of anti-semitism that tends to crop up anytime someone criticizes something about Israel strikes me as really no different than when the right-wingers cry "America bashing" or "Blame America first" when someone criticizes the policies and actions of the US government.

It doesn't advance the argument. It's basically an ad-hominem attack that distracts from real discourse.

[cali]

42. What about the equally

rote cry of "If I say this I'll be called an antisemite", when no such accusation has been made? That's just another pre-emptive attempt to shut down conversation, and it happens every bit as often.

[Rex]

44. When the person(s) calls for the death of all Jews that live in Israel.

Pretty good sign they might be anti-semite.

[yurbud]

106. that sounds more like suicidal

[oberliner]

47. Anti-Semitic vs. Not Anti-Semitic criticism of Israel

Here's my take.

Not Anti-Semitic:

"Israel had no legitimiate cause to invade Lebanon and the IDF's callous disregard for the lives of innocent civilians is horrific."

Anti-Semitic:

"Israel's genocide of the Lebanese people is ironically similar to the way the Nazis exterminated the Jews in Germany."

Not Anti-Semitic:

"Israel has wanted to eliminate Hezbollah for a long time and were able to conveniently use the capturing of two of its soldiers as an excuse to pursue that goal."

Anti-Semitic:

"Israel, unique among the nations of the world, is a country of blood-thirsty monsters who are singularly devoted to stealing land and slaughtering women and children."

Not Anti-Semitic:

"Pro-Israel lobby groups are quite succesful at making sure their one-sided, extemely biased perspective on the conflict is favorably presented to lawmakers and the general public with great frequency."

Anti-Semitic:

"The only reason the US government supports Israel is because of the power and influence of Jewish lobbyists who are the real controllers of American foreign policy."


Would people say those are pretty fair distinctions?

[Karenina]

58. Good and fair.

The biggest stumbling block is the inability to really know what is in another's heart. Sometimes the tip-offs are very subtle, such as intonation or calling attention to someone's identity when it is not at all germane to the conversation. Many mouth off and are just ignorant. Those who refer to "thejews" as a monolith set my teeth on edge. Screaming "ANTI-SEMITE" in their faces or that they a) think Jewish blood is cheap b) make me nauseous c) never notice when Jews are murdered and don't care d) support "terrorists" e) want to see the Jews drivenintothesea f)g)h)i)... contributes -0- to the discussion.

I will take slight issue with one of your examples:

Anti-Semitic:

"Israel's genocide of the Lebanese people is ironically similar to the way the Nazis exterminated the Jews in Germany."

If I heard that from an American, my shit detector would start beeping. When I hear it from Europeans, it has quite a different quality.

[SammyBlue]

62. rebuttal using things said here.

Anti-Semitic:

"Israel's genocide of the Lebanese people is ironically similar to the way the Nazis exterminated the Jews in Germany." Israel is purposely targetting civilians and killing indiscriminately.

Anti-Semitic:

"Israel, unique among the nations of the world, is a country of blood-thirsty monsters who are singularly devoted to stealing land and slaughtering women and children." Again, Israel is purposely killing civilians and targetting everyone to die. They even targetted the UN.

Anti-Semitic:

"The only reason the US government supports Israel is because of the power and influence of Jewish lobbyists who are the real controllers of American foreign policy." Next time that straw man of AIPAC is used to show how "Jewish Lobbyists" are controlling policy by DUers. . .you'll see how anti-Semetic the posts get.

Any more comparisons? What I have said in rebuttal have been posted here at DU many times by many posters. Go through the archives.

[elana i am]

77. Sometimes peope are prone to hyperbole when they are passionate

about something. I try not to get my panties in a wad about hyperbolic statements.

[Douglas Carpenter]

84. I think those are fair distinctions -

[Beelzebud]

51. When is it legitimate to question state actions of Israel?

Does the fact that there are true anti-semites in the world give Israel a free pass to do anything they wish?

[TahitiNut]

59. See post #46

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1763289&mesg_id=1763957

[oberliner]

61. always

When is it legitimate to accuse someone of anti-semitism?

[TahitiNut]

64. Whenever it's more convenient than civility and intellectual honesty?

That seems to be at least one practice. :shrug:

[oberliner]

67. how about when one compares Israel to the nazis?

Would you consider that to be antisemitic or something that should be adressed with civility and intellectual honesty?

Or both!

[TahitiNut]

70. Would it be inconvenient? Too great an effort?

That's too bad. :shrug:

[oberliner]

73. Making the effort goes both ways.

If someone was to make that comparison, I think it would be fair to challenge them as to why they chose that analogy above all others and to also make a reasonable argument as to why that choice suggested antisemitic leanings.

Similarly, if I was discussing the election in Mexico with someone and they made a comparison involving Mexico that I found to be racist, I would challenge them as to why they chose that particular comparison to make.

Is it too inconveient or too great an effort to reflect upon why one is being accused of antisemitism rather than immediately assume that it is some sort of knee-jerk response to close down discussion of the issues at hand?

[Dorian Gray]

52. WIth Mel Gibson's rantings and ravings

during his arrest, I would consider it legitimate in that case.

[Zhade]

65. When someone hates Semitic peoples...

...(remember, Semitic does not just mean Jewish) for being of Semitic origin.

It's certainly not immediately warranted when someone criticizes Israel, which is not synonymous with "Jewish", that's for sure. For example, Albert Einstein criticized the idea of the Israeli state when he turned down the presidency, and only a truly uninformed idiot could argue with a straight face that Einstein was anti-Semitic.

[Behind the Aegis]

69. So many things wrong with your post.

Anti-Semitism has NOTHING to do with SEMITES! The only time it ever did was in the warped mind of the person who coined the term!

Also, you seem to think that Jews cannot be anti-Semitic. Two words for you: Roy Cohn! (that example also works well for people convinced that gays can't be self-loathing homophobes.)

[Zhade]

89. Okay, BtA. Educate me, don't berate me.

I may not be aware of the origin of the term, and may be going on its current usage. I admit to the possibility of being wrong.

"Also, you seem to think that Jews cannot be anti-Semitic." - I honestly don't know where that came from? I of course know that people of a group can be bigoted against their own group.

[Behind the Aegis]

93. Here is a good place to start...

The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

---snip---

The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Assyrians). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."<8>

In recent decades some groups have argued that the term should be extended to include prejudice against Arabs, Anti-Arabism, in the context of accusations of Arab anti-Semitism; further, some, including the Islamic Association of Palestine, have argued that this implies that Arabs cannot, by definition, be anti-Semitic. The argument for such extension comes out of the claim that since the Semitic language family includes Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic languages, and the historical term "Semite" refers to all those who consider themselves descendants of the Biblical Shem, anti-Semitism should be likewise inclusive. This usage is not generally accepted. (emphasis mine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism">source

[Zhade]

98. See? A more useful approach.

Thank you.

As to the "some, including the Islamic Association of Palestine, have argued that this implies that Arabs cannot, by definition, be anti-Semitic" argument, I agree - it's a dumb argument, because as you noted above people can hate the group they belong to.

[Meshuga]

85. Check this post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1762510

[Zhade]

88. Will do.

I'll reply later, thanks for the link.

[Meshuga]

92. You can also google...

Wilhelm Marr

[Behind the Aegis]

66. FWIW

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic. However, it is the motivation of those criticisms that can be called into question. I have seen a number of posters post 'anti-Israeli' information. That's fine. The ones I have an issue with are the ones that post 'anti-Israeli' information from people such as Pat Buchanan or Paul Craig Roberts. I have issue with the ones that post from obviously anti-Semitic sites. THOSE people are questionable, in my eyes! I also question those who attack ANYTHING having to do with Israel. I posted about the first Israeli to win the Wimbledon Doubles. The FIRST comment...."does he round people in concentration camps?" THAT is questionable, and in my opinion, not far from anti-Semitism. Then, there are the ones that keep 'questioning' "anti-Semitism" as NOT being just prejudice against Jews. THOSE people are walking on a VERY thin line! They are repeating the lies from Nazi websites and speakers, whether they know it or not!

Anti-Semitism in the life of Behind the Aegis...(not at ALL comprehensive...just some highlights)

-- 5th grade: Was threatened with a shotgun blast to the face (threat, I wasn't actually shot) because I was a "Christ-killer."
-- After coming back to school from the High Holy Days, was asked why I was gone. when I replied, I was told that was not a valid excuse and got a "zero" on a major test and was not allowed to make it up. (teacher did this)
-- Asked at Christmas time, if I could cover duty because I had nothing better to do (despite Hannukah being the same time that year).
-- in grade school, was asked if they could see my horns (I didn't even know what that meant until I asked my parents about my horns! LOL!).
-- Was told to go to a certain car dealer because I could "Jew them down."
-- in HS, was greeted one day with "Seig Heil" and Nazi salutes (though I think that had more to do with my being gay, than a Jew).
-- in HS, was asked if I like the smell of gas, then I hear a hissing sound (the person was making it), and I was told to "breathe deeply."
-- in college, was told "too bad Hitler didn't finish the job, then I wouldn't have to deal with you!"
-- my brother's fiancee's family, on finding out about the engagement..."Why would you marry a Jew?"
-- in Tulsa, I was asked if I was prepared to die for the sins of Israel.
-- on DU, told I wouldn't know anti-Semitism if it bit me in the ass.

[elana i am]

68. Like someone said above

I consider any cry of "anit-semetisim" an ad hominem argument.

While I only just started posting yesterday, I've been lurking here for over a year. This is a wonderful place, with very open-minded and non-judgemental people. I think that by virtue of being a progressive, humanist community, no one here could be called anti-semetic.

[cali]

71. Any cry of antisemitism an ad hominem?

So referring to someone as a jew-boy isn't something you consider anti-semitic, or accusing Israel of having been behind 9/11 and warning jews to stay away, that's not anti-semitic? Both of those and more have made appearances on DU. If you consider every charge of anti-semitism to be an ad hominem attack, you have a problem. I hope you'll reconsider and welcome to DU.

[elana i am]

74. Are you sure they weren't just trolls or ish-stirrers?

Because I can't imagine them being anything other than that. And I have yet to see anything like that here myself about any racial group.

[cali]

76. Some may have been

but there have been threads started by long time DUers, and posts by those with over one thousand posts. They tend to get deleted quickly, but yes, it's been a problem over the past two weeks.

[Jade Fox]

104. I was attacked all over the place yesterday...

for saying that irrational hatred of Israel and fantasies about the US being a puppet of Israel are rooted in Anti-Semitism, a statement which seems obvious to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1762894#1763023

And since I've been posting on DU for four years now, I would hope my non-troll status is secure.

[cali]

72. Any cry of antisemitism an ad hominem?

So referring to someone as a jew-boy isn't something you consider anti-semitic, or accusing Israel of having been behind 9/11 and warning jews to stay away, that's not anti-semitic? Both of those and more have made appearances on DU. If you consider every charge of anti-semitism to be an ad hominem attack, you have a problem. I hope you'll reconsider and welcome to DU.

[readmoreoften]

78. People throwing pennies at me as a kid because Jews are "cheap"

[readmoreoften]

79. People spraypainting....

Readmoreoften Sucks N***** Dick on the side of my house when I was eight or nine. Except it didn't say Readmoreoften; it said my real name. And I'm only half Jewish.

[readmoreoften]

80. When people denied my parents housing...

because they were a "mixed" couple: a catholic and a jew.

[Spinoza]

87. Double standards, exclusively applied against

Israel and Israelis is objectively anti-semitic (all its effects are anti-semitic) even if the propounders are not themselves subjectively anti-semitic. (i.e. they don't feel any personal bigotry or hatred against Jews per se.) This form of anti-semitism was applied by many 'good' Germans against Jews in the 1930s who--genuinely-- did not feel the race hatred of the Nazis, or the religious hatred of the European peasants of old, but none-the-less used the excuse that criticism of Jews was justified in some instances. ("Well, one can't denty that 'they' ARE 'rich', 'unduly influential', 'clannish' etc.") The substitution of Zionist or Israeli for Jew, even if its sincere, does not exempt the user from anti-semitism.

It should not need to be said that I am NOT saying that criticism of Israel, in itself, is anti-semitic. Even a cursory review of Israeli opinion shows constant public criticism, by Israelis, of almost EVERY aspect of Israeli culture and society, most expecially including foreign affairs. I venture to say there is more open criticism of Israel by Israelis than of the U.S. by Americans. (In great contrast to Israel's neighbors where public criticism of their own societies is, to say the least, limited.)

However, what IS anti-semitic is the constant double standards applied against Israel, the use of vicious, factually ridiculous tropes like comparing Israel, a nation of refugees who were the supreme victims of Nazi terror (2 million Jewish children under the age of 14 gassed) to Nazis; talk of Jewish 'cabals' (neocons?) Jewish 'power'; statements that Israel, alone among the nations of the world, has no right to exist, etc. Yes, some Jews make these statements and they are anti-semites. (By the way, the word 'anti-semitism' was first coined in the late 19th century by a German bigot who used the word only to denote hatred of Jews. It has nothing to do with Arabs or 'semitic' peoples in general.)

For a leftist perspective on left anti-semitism and double standars: snip>

"Exactly a year ago my trade union the AUT, voted to exclude Israelis at two universities from the global academic community (the campaigners saw this as a step to excluding everyone connected to an Israeli university). We were not supposed to include research or ideas from these blacklisted academics in our journals. These banned persons were not to be invited to conferences. We were not supposed to visit these universities. These punitive measures were proposed against Israeli academics but not against academics that worked in any other country that had a bad human rights record.

We were to continue dealing as normal with academics from the US, even though their state was responsible for the illegal prison camps at Guantanamo, even though their forces had been involved in the assault on Falluja, even though American soldiers were involved in the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody called for an international boycott of UK universities because of Britain's collaboration with these US projects. Nobody currently wants to boycott British and American academics because their states are turning a blind eye to genocide in Darfur.

Nobody asked us to exclude any other academics from the international community; not scholars from North Korea, Zimbabwe, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Sudan - or any of the many other states with human rights records worse than that of Israel"<snip

>snip "Aha! I hear you say. There is the slippage. This was not a boycott of Jews but a boycott of Israelis, of Zionists. If we say "Zionist" rather than "Jew" then its not anti-semitic is it?"<snip

>snip" Nobody in the campaign to ban Israeli artists, thinkers, writers, teachers, students and musicians hates Jews. But they nevertheless support a policy that is anti-semitic in effect."

Read the whole article. Its quite good. http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/david_hirsh/2006/04/antisemitism_on_the_left.html

[survivor999]

90. It is BS. And ineffective too.

Used to work with certain people.

[cali]

91. Are you actually

maintaining that any charge of antisemitism is bullshit, and invariably unjustified?

[yurbud]

97. a theory on anti-Semitism & class

on edit: added question at the end

I suspect that anti-Semitism is more virulent in the lower and upper classes.

If the only members of a group you meet are a few rungs higher on the socio-economic ladder, you could resent them as your seeming superiors, just as some poor and middle class people quietly resent Asians--because they are afraid they really are better.

Conversely, the rich dislike people who rise to their level through effort and merit, so they look for reasons to exclude them.

I can't think of any other reason why the rich would dislike them since the stereotypes of Jews are traits that wealthy people prize, cultivate, and reward.
, given that the most vociferously Christian among us have gone from being virulently anti-semitic to 'messianic jews' (or whatever you call it when Christians decide they are Jews too), anyone else have a theory for the persistence of anti-Semitism?

[Behind the Aegis]

99. interesting theory.

I wish I had more time to expand on this. However, I think it has more to do with educational level. I know the ADL did a survey, and income and educational levels were included. I can't remember what the conclusion was, except that those with less education tended to have higher levels of anti-Semitism, then those who at least finished HS.

[yurbud]

100. It might be a bit harder to collect the data for class since rich people

don't answer their own phones.

[Jade Fox]

103. The Seattle shooting......

was a good example.

This shooter did not seek out Israelis, but Americans who were Jewish to shoot. Why were those women responsible for the actions of someone else's country? Will any Jew do if you want to kill someone for the actions of Israel? For all the shooter knew those Seattle Jewish woman were opposed to the current actions of Israel. But apparently the only thing that counted was that they were Jewish. THAT is anti-Semitism.

[JackNewtown]

110. Mel Gibson's rant is a good, current example nt

[GAPeace]

111. Legitimate to people who hate Judaism, Jews for being Jews

Otherwise it really isn't anti-semitic IMO.