The TRUTH about "dangerous" Pit Bulls.

[johnaries]

From the American Canine Federation website:
http://acf2004.tripod.com/id8.html

The American Temperament Test Society (A.T.T.S.) has tested over 185 breeds of dogs in the last 25 years. The American Pit Bull Terriers rate higher than all other breeds. The A.T.T.S. is recogonized by the United Kennel Club and other well established organizations and they have testified as experts in several court cases. ....

...Unfortunately, it was discovered in the late 1800's, that if trained, the dogs could be used for the inhumane sport of illegal dogfighting. The dogfighters did not tolerate human aggression and culled any dog that showed aggression towards humans. Over 100 years of selective breeding for non - human aggressive dogs took place with the fighting dog lines, these were cross bred into the dogs used for companionship and herding livestock and guarding farms....

...Since 1936 in AKC the breed has been selective bred for conformation shows and companionship in the AKC, since the 1970's the breed has been shown in the UKC and ADBA. The AKC bloodlines are cross bred with the UKC/ADBA lines and what this tells us is for over 69 years the dogs have been selective bred for non - animal aggression. While some strains still have animal prey drive, most of the breed is now non animal aggressive. One must remember, the American Pit Bull Terrier is a "Terrier" and all terriers have prey drive, this does not make them vicious or dangerous. Many other non -terriers breeds also have prey drive and they are not considered dangerous.

http://acf2004.tripod.com/id4.html

The main cause of fatal dog attacks is irresponsible dog owners who do not properly train and socalize their dogs which leads to aggressive behavior and irresponsible parents who leave young children unattended around dogs.

Breed is not a contributing factor to fatal dog attacks and spay and neutering does not reduce canine aggression.

http://acf2004.tripod.com/id6.html

Why is this so? Most BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) is enacted in response to a highly publicized, and often sensationalized canine altercation in which a human is either hurt or killed. Since fatal attacks by canines are actually rare, when and if they happen, it is news fodder and it SELLS. Sensationalism is prevalent and a huge industry in the media world.

When enacting a law in response to such sensationalized stories, lawmakers do NOT take steps to ensure the stories are factual. Therefore, stories about a "pitbull" may really be about a "mastiff/lab" mix, or a "shepherd/boxer" mix, or any number of mixed breed dogs. Since there are at least 25-35 dog breeds that may resemble a "pitbull", it is extremely common for any canine bearing ANY resemblance to a terrier to be labeled a "pitbull."

There have been studies conducted in the past that are heavily relied upon by those who want to push for BSL. The fact is, those studies (there are only several) are not complete scientific studies, they were not done with complete variables, the evidence used was not adjusted for variables not taken into account, and the extrapolation from such studies is flawed due to the failure of not having set the foundation correctly to start with.

[Greyhound]

1. All true. I've owned a pit and she was wonderful, eventually.

I think the main problem is mostly media.

That said, there is a culture that is outside of the clubs and societies that does breed for aggression and, as you know, an aggressive pit is very dangerous. The fact that many gangsters use pits doesn't help the image either.

As I said in the other thread, This really pisses me off, and the dogs will pay the price.

[jayctravis]

227. The problem with pit bulls...

Many people don't understand how to take care of a dog. And even the best owner cannot account for every thread of dog psychology...who hasn't been around a completely friendly dog that was startled unexpectedly and snapped drawing blood accidentally, or was not used to children who tend to go straight at the "cute puppy" without regard that they might scare it into an instinctual bite.

Unfortunately pitbulls are strong and have those locking jaws. A child or adult without a lot of strength or experience with animals might not be able to fight the dog off or make it stop attacking. A psychologically fragile beagle with a biting issue is much less a danger than a pit bull.

[blonndee]

229. I agree with most of your post, except that the "locking jaws"

thing is a myth.

[Greyhound]

241. Yes, thank you for pointing that out (I wonder where this stuff comes

from)

BTW the "most vicious" dog, judged by number of reported attack per year by breed, is the Cocker Spaniel. Can't find a link right now, but was in Dog Fancy some time ago.

[Clarkie1]

2. Breeding of Pit Bulls should be outlawed, period. nt

[johnaries]

6. Why? Did you read any of the articles? Pit Bulls have a better

temperament than German Shephard or Collies! Even better than St Bernards!

Breed Name Tested Passed Failed Percent
AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 515 430 85 83.5%
COLLIE 801 633 168 79.0%
GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG 2786 2,316 470 83.1%
SAINT BERNARD 41 34 7 82.9%
http://www.atts.org/statistics.html

Should we stop breeding them, too?

[Lucy - Claire]

93. I haven't heard of too many children being mauled by a St Bernards.

My Grandfather had a bad tempered dog, that was destroyed after attacking someone that walk passed him. Yet I know that attacks by German Shepards are rare too and all breeds can produces unstable dogs. Pitbulls seem to be disproprationately bad tempered and one child killed is too many. When it was happening too often and people were being killed by their normally sweet tempered dog, then they had to taken off the streets.

[baldguy]

124. Never heard of Cujo?

Bad-tempered pitbulls are disproportionately in the news for it. Every breed of dog can be trained to be a killer. The ONLY determining factor is the temperament of the owner.

[Lucy - Claire]

159. My Grandfather had dogs all his life and only one was dangerous.

He loved his dogs, they were all well trained, friendly playful and fine companion dogs.
It was only that one German Shepard that was a nutter that had to be put down. It was not because he
was ill treated, he was never chained up in the back garden, was walked twice aday and went to work with my Grandfather. And he was on the lead/leash when he viciously bit a passer-by. It isn't always the owner, sometimes there is something wrong with the dog, it was in it's breeding and I have trouble trusting German Shepards too this day. It was a terrifying dog, for a small child. But German Shepard's rarely kill humans and they are brilliant working dogs, therefore they don't need to be banned.
And Pitbulls are illegal here because one too many killed a small child and often these small children have been killed in their own homes. It wasn't considered dispropertionate at the time the ban came in and it brought in other legislation such as agressive dogs have to wear a muzzle and dogs have to be on a lead.

[Greyhound]

242. You haven't heard, because they are not telling you.

There's no "news value" to dog attack stories. They are only reported in conjunction with some agenda. Nobody is try to outlaw St. Bernards. Do you remember the hue and cry for eliminating the "vicious" Dobermans in the 70's? Not a week went by without a story of some Dobbie attacking its owner or some kid or other pet.

Just remember that if it's in the M$M, it's a lie to sell you something, usually fear. :think:

[jmowreader]

247. Did you read the testing methodology?

They attach the dog to a six-foot leash, then walk it down a path in which it meets various challenges.

If the dog shows aggression, panics uncontrollably, or tries to retreat, it fails the test. It didn't say whether they take the dog through the whole course even if it fails an early section, but I'm going to assume they do because they send you a critique of the dog's performance. But a dog breed that tends to freak out, or hide behind its owner when faced with a threat, is going to score as badly as a breed that tends to attack.

Incidentally, there are a BUNCH of dogs on that list that scored higher than pit bulls, such as...

Alaskan Malamute: 84.2%
American Tunnel Terrier: 100%
Belgian Malinois: 90.2%
Black and Tan Coonhound: 100%
Bluetick Coonhound: 100%
English Cocker Spaniel: 93.2%
English Jack Russell Terrier: 100%
Irish Setter: 90.2%
Mastiff: 84.4%
Redbone Coonhound: 100%

This organization is a sales tool--nothing more. Don't look at the percentages. Look at the dogs taking the test. Except for two specific examples, it is very heavily weighted toward two kinds of dogs: ones that have a reputation for uncontrolled aggression like pit bulls, and ones that are billed as being good for children like bird dogs and midsized terriers. (The two specific examples are rottweilers and German shepherds, which are very popular with legitimate guard dog users. These dogs must be aggressive, but uncontrolled aggression in a guard dog is unacceptable. These two breeds account for about 28 percent of all the dogs tested. I pulled them out because they fuck up the numbers for every other breed.)

A breeder could use these numbers to prove how wonderful the temperament of her dogs is.

But other than that, it's bullshit--because backyard breeders and people who never interact with their dogs (you know, The Problem With Pit Bulls) aren't taking their dogs to be temperament tested.

[Critters2]

261. I never understand why pit bull people quote these

"temperament test" stats. The issue isn't whether a dog acts nicely in a controlled setting. The issue is how often a breed is involved in fatal attacks. So, apparently, pit bulls perform well in temperament tests AND are involved in 30% of all fatal attacks.

Not really all that comforting.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elehhhhna]

3. Uh them fighting dogs ain't AKC registered. I like this part:

"Breed is not a contributing factor to fatal dog attacks"

Yet, statistically, Pits cause more fatal attacks per 1.000 than, say, schnoodles.
'Splain that. If it's just that IDIOTS are attracted to this breed, well boy howdy THAT"S a heckuva conbination, Brownie.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

10. Schnoodles aren't a breed. They're an abomination.

Designer dogs merely rip off their customers, make a quick buck for the assholes breeding them, and contribute to the millions of mixed-breed dogs in this country.

Also, the American Pit Bull Terrier is not an AKC registered breed. They are recognized by the UKC. The AKC recognized the Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier, which for the average person is the same thing.

The "pit bull" type breeds are not dangerous dogs when raised properly. Their reputation is ruined by two groups of idiots: those that directly turn pits into dangerous dogs and those that lump all pit bulls into that category, instead of allowing themselves to think clearly and educate themselves.

[elehhhhna]

94. People aren't necessarily dangerous when raised properly. So?

Let's be pragmatic: IDIOTS love these dogs for the same reason women, children & the elderly loathe & fear them That's reality.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. I'm a woman and I love pit bulls.

I'm also responsible with dogs. My grandmother (who lives with me) also loved the pit I recently fostered and I was around them a bunch as a kid.

That's reality.

Reality isn't making ridiculous generalizations and assuming that if you label it "pragmatic," it won't be a ridiculous generalization anymore.

[elehhhhna]

98. NO ONES attacking you, your choice, or your dogs...

but get real, please?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

99. Why don't you open up and actually stop listening to sensationalized

crap about bad dogs with their bad owners and face the facts that most pit bulls are not dangerous dogs?

[elehhhhna]

104. because they run like hell and act nuts when they're staked. And most of

them 'round here ARE staked. And they bite people. Now ther's a really annoying Aussie Cattle Dog that nips, but she doesn't BREAK YOUR SKIN.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

105. You admit the problem is them being staked and mistreated.

Properly raised Pit Bulls are good dogs. If you leave them chained up and unsocialized (or worse), then you get a problem dog. That is the owner's fault. Don't blame the whole breed, because of irresponsible owners.

[elehhhhna]

127. Yes. We agree. It's the owners (though you MUST concede

there are exceptions).

The proliferation of asshat owners has reinforced (created, nurtured) the stigma about pits. And? Since we aren't in perfectworld, and budgets for animal-control have been decmated or eliminated, let's outlaw the dammned things. Sure, rotts wil be next. Oh, well. Your right to have a threatening animal ends where my right to not be disfigured, disabled, or plain old eaten alive on my own property by your "pet" begins. And please don't give me a load about "oh but a world without pitbulls..." Please. There are many, many better tempered breeds available.



PS I feel the same about unlocked/unsecured handguns.

[johnaries]

171. Actually, Pit Bulls has one of the best tempermental scores.

83.5% I've posted the ATTS scores many times. Pits score better than Collies, German shepherds, even the famous "Rescue Dogs" Saint Bernards!

[blonndee]

109. Chaining dogs is actually dangerous because it

makes them more territorial/aggressive. Dogs, no matter the breed, who are chained are often also neglected and not socialized, so yes, a dog that lives on a chain is likely to be aggressive. But not just pits.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

112. Exactly, it's weird, but they feel much safer in a run or fenced yard.

Even though they're confined, they're less likely to lash out because they feel they can run. The only time we would tie up one of our dogs in the yard was when we were outside in the yard with the dog. If we were inside, she was inside with us. It's cruel to leave them chained outside alone and it causes problem dogs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

245. The pit that killed the woman here in KC was in a fenced in yard

He jumped over the fence and attacked the woman in her yard, while she was gardening. I think we can determine that this dog did not feel safe in his fenced yard.

[elehhhhna]

129. Yep, an any dogwise person knows this. Good point.

[Protagoras]

158. "Most" is a nice qualification.

Most individual lots of things won't hurt you. "Most" times people drive drunk no one gets hurt. Yet there is a significant enough risk we do try and stop it.


There was an interesting link to a cdc report on dog attacks somewhere yesterday...might be worth revisiting.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

162. By most, I mean the ones who were properly raised.

It's the idiot owners creating dangerous dogs and there needs to be better enforcement of the current laws and harsher penalties for those who break the laws. That will work better than BSL.

As for the CDC study, it isn't that pit bulls are normally dangerous dogs. It's the fact that many criminals turn them into dangerous dogs, at a much higher rate than other breeds. If you ban pit bulls, they'll just move onto a different breed (which is already happening). Enforce what we have better and don't punish responsible owners.

Also, comparing pit bulls with drunk driving is like comparing apples and sea anemones.

[Protagoras]

167. Referring to concepts of "Significance"

We don't regulate most things in society because it's MOSTLY dangerous or deadly. We set thresholds...levels of significance. It's a statistical concept not a comparison between pit bulls and drunk driving. If I can recall that research methods class it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do...and it isn't equating EQUAL levels of significance...just that there are assignable levels of such.

Also there is a point both socially and within the breeding community where it doesn't matter how a problem began...it becomes large enough that it needs to be dealt with rather than being allowed to continue while everyone debates the chicken and egg crap.

Pit bulls DO hurt more people than other breeds. Pit bulls were bred to do things most other dogs were not. Pit Bulls are associated with an element of society that seems to encourage their bad reputation. Pit Bulls are percieved as a menace to old ladies and small children (with incidents to back that up) which can and does distress neighbors above and beyond most other breeds.

Now are MOST pits owned by responsible owners good dogs? I am sure they are. But I wonder about a few things given the above. Are there more BAD pit bull owners than X dog owners? Are there more naturally bad pit bulls than naturally bad other dogs? Is the COMBINATION bringing us to a level of danger where people are rightfully concerned? Is there some sort of effort needed to correct this that is cost effective?

I'm certainly not advocating getting rid of all pit bulls. I am, however, thinking we should do something besides simply say "BUT I"M A GOOD OWNER". I live in an upper middle class neighborhood and have most of my life...when I was younger and poorer we never had a pit in our area...yet as I've moved up the Socioeconomic ladder I've actually seen more of them. I've seen them get out and I've seen them menace people. I've even seen one attack a poodle. The owners weren't trailer park meth addicts. So I don't think that's entirely the problem.

The defensiveness about this animal is really interesting. I think perhaps we'd do best to set out a discussion that just says BREED X...and then discuss what levels of risk we'd allow ANY Breed to have before we treated it or considered it different.

I do believe that good training goes a long way toward controlling an animal...but dogs and people are not ENTIRELY blank slates...we are both biological and social beings...and as such we are sometimes not as predictable as the controllers would wish. So with Breed X is there a point where we begin to assess risk and limit it's presence in say...residential areas? Is there a point where we require special training or a special license? Is there a point where we level harsher penalties against the owners who choose to have Breed X if it hurts someone because they acknowledge they are taking Greater risks?

Donno...I just know that I've seen more problems in nice neighborhoods with the pits than other dogs...and I've been around enough owners, breeders, and trainers to have heard their stories and realize that despite all the glowing exceptions...something different is going on here and it can be worrisome.

[johnaries]

126. Perhaps you aren't, but I've seen many attacks on this board

on "people who own these dogs".

And while it is true that some people will buy Pitt Bulls because of the breeds undeservedbad reputation, most Pit Bull owners do not fall in this category.

I have a PitBull/Bulldog mix. But I didn't pick him because of his breeding. I picked him because he was a sweet, playful, loving puppy.

[IsIt1984Yet]

183. I am a woman who loves them. IDIOTS make broad-brush generalizations.

:eyes:

[johnaries]

11. Actually, they do NOT cause more fatal attacks statistically.

As the website explains, the CDC report claiming this was not a valid study.

Also, as it explains, most Pit Bull attacks are done by other breeds that are simply confused with Pit Bulls.

I used to believe that Pits were an agressive breed, too. Until I got the facts.

I'm now the proud owner of a rescued Pit Bull /Buldog mix. A very sweet dog, and very friendly.

[elehhhhna]

95. Look, i have apal who grew up in TX and his nuts Dad kept TIGERS!

They were sold off years ago.

Few years ago atiger killed a preschooler near here. TJ recognized her immediately (the tiger). He'd raised it. Broke his heart that she was a killer 7wa IIRC euthenized.


AS he said "She just did what tigers DO." (Not an excuse--an explaination)

Pits just do what pits DO, sometimes.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

100. Nice red herring there with the tiger bit.

:eyes:

[elehhhhna]

128. Hey, where did you get those pants? the SMARTY department?

[johnaries]

134. Well, how many generations of tigers have been bred to be

domesticated family pets?

[elehhhhna]

154. I know, I know. Just trying to point out (poorly?) that

animals resort to animal behavior and people shouldn't be so surprised.



I'll wager that 99% of the babies & toddlers attacked by dogs (and tigers!) were not supervised, were left alone with the animal/s, and/or have no idea/training in how to approach a dog (tiger, liger, polar bear, whatever...).

[johnaries]

172. Well, that is a good point. ANY animal is an animal, and there's

always a possibility that some primitive animal instinct will pop out of nowhere.

And, the same is true of the Human Animal. As we all well know.

[elehhhhna]

194. Human difference: it's "oaky" if it's via remote (bombs, missiles, etc.)

Never heard of a pit bull doing that!

[johnaries]

211. That doesn't explain hunting for sport. nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. Yup.

[mark11727]

4. Petey was a Pit Bull...

[Bucky]

102. Sure, Petey was a Pit Bull. But notice they kept on "replacing" Rascals

And now you know why. Apparently Petey was mauling them one at a time.

[johnaries]

130. Yeah, that explains all the scars and disfigurements on the kids

in later episodes.
:eyes:

[elehhhhna]

133. It DOES explain whatshisnames cowlick. Dog sucked on his hair.

[johnaries]

173. Then why would they call it a COWlick and not a DOGlick?

Sorry, just couldn't resist!
:hi:

[elehhhhna]

220. Perhaps it was really a cattle dog?

[elehhhhna]

131. golDAMN thta was a good one lmao.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

5. There you go with your newfangled logic again.

Great post. Unfortunately, you're probably preaching to the choir on it.

[Rex]

7. Everyone here who has this 'fear/anger' of pitbulls are fucking racists!

I've kept out of this since day one, but no more. All of ya. I can't believe I'm seeing racism against a species of canine. Unbelievable. I'm surrounded by neighbors who own rottweilers, pit bulls, malamutes and a mix of who knows what. I own a pitbull/german shepard mix. The only dogs I've ever met that wanted to rip me apart were trained to do so or completely feral. Dogs are a reflexion of their master. I've had to go one on one with a few dogs in my lifetime. They were not Pitbulls.

Inconceivable.

[Redstone]

8. Nice neighborhood. Glad I don't live there.

Redstone

[Rex]

9. I've never had a problem with any of the dogs here, humans yes.

So far the score is

robbery - 4 humans
robbery - 0 dogs

And you know why they didn't get to rob my house? Because I had a trained dog that the neighbors heard and called the police before they got through the front door.

Yeah it is rough here, you might not make it.

[Redstone]

14. Oh, I'd make it anywhere. And have.

Redstone

[elehhhhna]

136. sum, Red is like Doctor freaking Doolittle, fyi.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

163. I'm the same way.

I'm regularly the person that makes great friends with the attack cat and such.

[elehhhhna]

221. As am I but Red works magic on WILD animals! Like skunks.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

233. I have a wild turkey that visits the yard everyday and practically takes

food from my hand. I actually just got back in from doing some photography of the tamest tree frog ever. This frog actually let me move it around to different locations, so I could set up shots. It just rode on my finger. Never tried to jump or anything. It was kind of weird.

[Cocoa]

12. I'm terrified of pit bulls

of course it's absurd to call me a racist. That word is about people, not dogs.

In three years as a mail carrier I was attacked twice by dogs, neither one a pit bull.

But I'm scared of pit bulls more than any other breed, and I'm in favor of laws banning that breed.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

15. That's an irrational fear and it's wrong to base laws off irrational fears

[Rex]

22. Dam maybe you should tell Bush/Cheney that.

Sorry, just had to say it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. Well, I was actually tempted to put that in my response, but I decided

against it.

[Cocoa]

31. I think my fear is rational

it's based on my rational, though limited, knowledge of pit bull attacks I've read about in the news.

The laws aren't based on my fears, however. They are based on public safety needs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

34. The news is sensationalized and dangerous pit bulls (like any other breed)

are almost always a product of abuse & training to turn that dog into what it is. I have probably half a dozen friends with pit bulls and they're all great dogs. However, they have been treated with love, properly trained and socialized. I suggest you read through all the articles posted above with an OPEN mind.

[Cocoa]

42. I did read the above articles

and I agree about the abuse and training. But the laws are about preventing the tragedies, not about blaming the dogs. Laws against pit bulls might save lives.

Pit bull advocates have the right to form a lobby such as the one that produced the above literature, but ordinary people who know nothing about dog breeds have a right to be protected as well.

[johnaries]

44. But the laws WON'T help!

This post below says it well:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1767603&mesg_id=1767875

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

45. Oftentimes, those laws call for the euthanasia of any pit-type dog.

Do you support euthanizing innocent family pets, because of a few bad dogs? Do you own pets? If so, would you like for your pet to be euthanized because of a few bad seeds and public hysteria?

Better enforcement of existing cruelty & dogfighting laws coupled with much harsher punishments would be more effective and actually go after those who are creating the problem. Innocent people and animals should not be punished because of criminals.

[Cocoa]

57. have there been any studies on the effectiveness of various laws?

effectiveness is the key.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

60. Well, you didn't answer my questions but...

not as far as I know. And what I'm calling for is for the existing laws to be enforced more effectively and with harsher punishments?

I'd still like to know your answers to the original questions I posed to you.

[Cocoa]

72. my answer to your questions is no

except I take issue with the word "innocent" in relation to animals.

The issue with these laws isn't guilt vs. innocence. It's dangerousness vs. safety. If the discussion is framed as innocence vs. guilt then it won't address the problem as I see it.

[johnaries]

140. Fatal dog attacks are so rare to begin with that no study done

could be very accurate. There are only 12-25 fatal dog attacks each year NATIONWIDE! there are an average of 22 deaths each year from hair dryers. The dog attacks just get more coverage.

[elehhhhna]

142. True. They're generally more grotesque and perople have this weird

thing about being bitten to death. Makes for sensational news.

[johnaries]

174. Exactly, and people shouldn't write laws basd on sensationalism.

Especially laws that end up causing so much needless heartbreak as having your loving, loyal family pet confiscated and "euthanized" (murdered).
:cry:

[Cocoa]

182. the hair dryer deaths should be addressed as well

and they are. And before anyone rushes out to defend hair dryers, relax, the hair dryers aren't being "blamed." It's about safety.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/2006/monica_hair_dryer.html

Hair Dryers Recalled for Electrocution Hazard

July 19, 2006

Style Tronics Inc. is recalling about 19,000 of its Monica and Turbo 1200 hand-held hair dryers. The dryers are not equipped with an immersion protection plug to prevent electrocution if the hair dryer falls into water. Such electric shock protection devices are required by industry standards for all electric hand-held hair dryers.

Recalled hair dryerThe recall involves two models of pistol-type hair dryers: The Monica hair dryer has its model name and number, SW-117, written on the handle. It is made of black plastic and chrome, and the handle folds up. The Turbo 1200 model has model number DS-507 written on the back of the handle. The model name is written on the blower nozzle. They are green and white and green.

The dryers were sold at independent discount stores nationwide from April 2004 through June 2005 for between $3 and $5.

Consumers should stop using these hair dryers, and contact Style Tronics Inc. for a full refund.

[Karmakaze]

91. I once had call to spend time in an emergency room...

dealing with a relatively minor cut. Across from me was a two year old boy who had half his face ripped off. Apparently the beautiful family dog that had been with them for years did not take kindly to the new little intruder in their life, and one day he decided to do something about it and attacked the child.

The dog was a "totally placid, never hurt anyone" GOLDEN RETRIEVER/LABRADOR cross.

Tha majority of dog attacks do NOT come from the so called dangerous breeds. In New Zealand, the majority of deadly attacks are not even from the so called dangerous breeds.

But the story of that little boy with his face ripped off never made the news. I mean how do you scare the shit out of people with a gorgeous old Golden Retriever/Labrador??

[elehhhhna]

138. Hell, a lab ate that french woman's face OFF (transplant lady).

[Scout1071]

187. Actually, golden's have a tendency to be

aggressive towards small children. I've known 2 Golden's that eventually had to be put down because they became so aggressive with their families. Children and adults.

I had a yellow lab for 12 years (may he rest in peace) and we wouldn't have hurt a fly.

[Mugu]

203. Mean people have mean doggies. N/T

[LynneSin]

153. You are very right to feel that way

Thing about Pit Bulls is they are very protective of their owners even though, as I have posted towards the end, it doesn't mean that the pit bull won't go off on someone it knows well - like another family dog.

No one should tell you that pit bulls are safe and your fears are unfounded. Wilmington has had a rash of children who have been attacked by pitbulls (like 3 in the last year) and all of them were kids not from the actual owner but perhaps a relative visiting or neighborhood kid.

I still believe that all pit bulls should be muzzled when outside of the home. And I think that all Pits should be registered and neutered (I live in an urban area where neutering is NOT preferred since they can make like $400 a pup breeding them).

[Rex]

16. Nah I think it applies to other animals too

I see similar behavior between both. I'm sorry they terrify you, it must suck being afraid of an animal.

[Cocoa]

28. no, the word "racist" is about humans

not about animals.

You can use the word if you want to talk about dog breeds, but you will be using the word wrong.

[Rex]

30. Well then help me out here

Actually maybe I'm wrong. It won't be the first time. If you can think of a better word I'll use it.

It is like a person who approaches two felines, one an orange tabby and the other is a Siamese. The person kicks the tabby because he hates orange cats. What would you call that?

[readmoreoften]

83. Breedists. /nt

[elehhhhna]

139. Someone who doesn't know that siamese dislike strangers?

[Rex]

197. LOL!

:rofl:

But that is the thing, the guy loves Siamese cats! He is discriminating or 'profiling' the orange tabby for no other reason, but that it is orange and he hates orange cats. I think this type of behavior spills over into other thought processes. IE He hates a certain race of cats.

Why does racism only apply to humans? Let us say mentally I hate a race of rabbits, okay call them breeds but they are different sup-species and therefore a race. Is that not racism?

[elehhhhna]

222. No but it IS Breedism

[Rex]

231. Kewl then that is what I will call it.

Thanks.

[elehhhhna]

236. Malevolent Beastism is good too.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

19. How many tries does it take you to pick out the pit bull?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

I'm sure it takes a few.

[Rex]

21. Yeah they sure do mix and match dogs. My parents have always

owned Boston Terriers and I've always been amazed at the various sizes and shapes. Then again I own 5 cats and am amazed at the varieties and mixes I see in them and others I've owned.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

106. #16 is my guess

?

[blonndee]

111. I posted that yesterday and somebody posted

the picture of the correct answer. Just so you know.

I love pits, and know quite a bit about them, and it still took me about 8 tries to select the correct one. But then, I hadn't seen the picture of the right answer before! LOL

[elehhhhna]

141. The Thai ridgeback is GORGEOUS.

The rest are ugly. Sorry.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

165. Even the little Jack Russell & Bernese Mountain Dog?

[MadHound]

90. Wow, talk about an irrational disconnect there

Attacked twice, neither one a pit, yet you're irrationally scared of pits and want them banned? Talk about a disconnect:eyes:

A suggestion for you. Go out and get an eight week old pit pup. Raise the pup, love it, play with it, adore the puppy cuteness that is a pit bull. And as you raise and train this dog, watch as puppy cuteness is transformed into a loyal, gentle and loving dog that will be your best friend. I think you'll get over this irrational fear of yours within a couple of years. And have a wonderful friend to show for it.

[Cocoa]

122. you might have misunderstood me

the post I was responding to said that they were attacked by breeds other than pit bulls.

My response was that my position on pit bulls is not based on my own personal experience with pit bulls or any other dogs, it's based on the fact that I think pit bulls are more dangerous than other types of dogs, even the breeds that attacked me.

[johnaries]

145. But WHY do you think Pit Bulls are more dangerous?

There is no rational reason to think that!

As I said before, I thought the same thing until I did some research. Now I know that my previous stance was wrong and irrational, and based completely on heresay.

I'll admit it, I once held the same irrational stance. Now I know the truth. And my own personal experience supports what I now know to be true.

[Cocoa]

151. it's based on what I've read

I've also read the arguments against singling out pit bulls.

I've found some of the arguments convincing, some unconvincing. I don't claim to know the "truth," but I think pit bulls are a hazard. Other breeds too, like rottweilers and dobermans.

[elehhhhna]

143. ...and name it Dingo 'cause it's surely

going to eat your baby.

[elehhhhna]

137. We are BREEDISTS! oh noooooooooo.

[janx]

259. Both people and dogs can be racists

if they haven't been around enough. ;-)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

13. I've lived around pits, shepherds, dobies, rotts & their mixes my whole

life. Have I ever had a problem with any of them? Nope. Have I been attacked by dogs? Yes, a lhasa apso (multiple times...the owners finally put him down when he attacked their daughter unprovoked and ripped her face open), poodle, cocker spaniel, and two yorkies.

[Redstone]

18. I had a damn Chihauha jump up and bite me on the hip once, when

I was 13 and delivering newspapers. After I whapped him with my bicycle, he didn't do it again.

Redstone

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

33. My one neighbor had a retarded beagle...

great with people, but hated dogs. One day, the beagle attacked our German Shepherd, who once she got a hold of the thing, just picked him up. We ended up having to hit our dog with a shovel to get her to drop the beagle. Amazingly, the beagle was okay. Our shepherd would chew on rocks as a puppy, so her teeth were filed flat (we think that helped a lot). The beagle went home and attacked our shepherd again in a few weeks. Same scenario ensued.

Fortunately the beagle he was never seriously injured, but damn what a fucking idiot of a dog. What posseses a 20lb beagle to attack a 95lb German Shepherd...TWICE?

[johnaries]

47. Hey, I've seen lots of small dogs try to take on much larger dogs.

The larger dogs usually run away. "I ain't messing with him, that motherf--er is CRAZY!"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. My cats used to beat up the German Shepherd.

Our dog wasn't good with strange people (and as responsible owners, we took every possible precaution and never had a problem). Of course, when it came to the cats, she was the biggest baby ever and would just let them beat her up (of course, they were also great friends and the cats liked to sleep in the crate with her). The most ridiculous thing was when she went through her "pink bunny" phase. Imagine walking this huge shepherd down the street, who insists on carrying a 2' pink stuffed rabbit with her everywhere. You get a lot of strange looks and comments.

[elehhhhna]

146. Our baby (20 bs., maybe ?) Elkhound beat up a fullgrown Boxer once.

But was super lovey with the kids. He herded them away from the stairs loooong after they could safely manage them on their own.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

160. That same shepherd would let herself get beat up by the cats.

Of course, she would also discipline the cats, groom them, vainly attempt to herd them and liked it when they slept in her cage.

She wasn't good with strangers though, but had enough obedience training and we took the proper precautions, so it never became an issue. If the doorbell rang, she'd actually bark a couple times and walk into the basement (where her crate was). It was pretty funny actually. The oddest thing was anybody that she met as a puppy was always okay with her, even if she just met them once and didn't see them again for five years. I have no clue how she remembered stuff like that.

[elehhhhna]

223. Our blabbie Budward defers to the cats,

and comes runnig to "Here, kitty kitty". What a sweetie.

He leaves Queen Puff alsone but wrestles chases & kisses Mister Ricki the blk siamese...hubs calls them the Sisters.

[Rex]

20. I had a Malamute charge me, he was a puppy and still as high as my

waste. The thing was he was wagging his tail the whole time so I knew he wasn't feral and wanted to play. I guess people who don't live around dogs, can't read their visual cues. Dunno. Had to take a bat to a german shepard once. He was totally intent on killing me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

24. I had an apartment in a house where the landlords had a 130lb

unneutered male rottweiler. Caesar was a super nice dog, but would scare everybody that came over. Whoever came through the back door was greeted by him charging and barking his head off. Most didn't notice his little stump tail wagging. Once he got up to you, he'd just sit down and want a pet then follow you up the stairs until you got to my apartment.

Once we had a guy doing work on the house and Caesar came charging out at him. The way he descibed it was, "I was getting some tools out of my car and all of a sudden a dog that could take down a horse came charging out at me. I tried to use the car door as a shield, but he flew past me into the car. Then, he sat down on the passenger seat facing straight ahead like, "hey man, I wanna go for a car ride." They were friends after that.

[Rex]

29. LOL!

:rofl: I bet the guy loved Caesar after the car incident. It is quite amazing the complex emotions, 'intelligent' dogs can show. Humor, impishness, great sadness.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

36. Yeah, Caesar was a cool dog. I miss him.

The landlords were asshats, but they treated him very nice.

Caesar also had his own tire swing out in the backyard. He'd jump up, grab onto it with his jaws and I'd swing him. Man, he loved his swing. Of course, it was probably the only thing he'd ever bite.

[Rex]

41. My parents used to hang volleyballs in trees because the boston

terriers would bite at them for hours. We had to put them away sometimes. The not so smart ones would play until their tongues touched the ground. Sometimes they would be able to grab hold of the ball and every now and then they could actually clamp down a bust the ball open. They'd lock their jaws shut and would swing around with the ball. They LOVED it when they busted a ball!

[tenshi816]

96. A veterinarian told me years ago

that in his opinion German Shepherds were the most dangerous breed of dog. Note that I said "in his opinion", because he didn't offer any evidence to back up his claim.

However, I was friends in high school with a boy whose uncle was attacked and killed by his own German Shepherd. I've always wondered if the dog's owner had mistreated it and the dog just finally lost it one day.

My dog is a border collie. They're not normally a breed you'd think of as a guard dog, but I've never had a better one - Riley is fiercely protective of our home and I have to make sure that he's kept well away from the door when someone steps onto our front porch, because I have no doubt that he'd attack. It's like he becomes a completely different animal then, snarling viciously and lunging, trying to reach whoever it is.

Once I get him outside and away from the house, though, he reverts to being a complete gentleman - once he's away from his territory, he stops being aggressive and about the worst thing he ever does is try to herd people. I'm aware that Riley would probably be useless at protecting me if I were to be attacked while we're walking on the moor (as a neighbour was a couple of weeks ago, when a knife-wielding rapist attacked her in broad daylight on the same well-traveled footpath I use on an almost daily basis) because he's only territorial about our home and not the world at large.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. Of course border collies are a good guard dog. They're a herding dog.

They need to both keep the herd together and protect it from predators.

[tenshi816]

114. Well, yeah, I understand that -

it's his instinct to herd. He's a pet, though, so we've trained him not to bother the sheep on the moor - he tends to try and round up people instead.

My point about my border collie is that I was surprised to discover how territorial he is about our home and just how fierce he becomes when people come to the house, compared to how docile he is when he's not within his territorial boundaries.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

116. Yeah, lots of dogs are like that.

The father of the German Shepherd we had would go after anybody, except the kennel workers, if they went into his run. Take him outside the run and he was a 115lb baby.

Herding dogs view the family and the house as their flock & field. It's just what they do. Our German Shepherd would try to herd the cats. It was futile, but she tried.

I used to dogsit for a husky-lab mix. The first time I went over to the house, he tried to attack me when I went in through the front door. I called up the owners, because I didn't know how I'd be able to take care of the dog for a week. They told me to go in through the back door. I tried it and he was standing there wagging his tail at me. Apparently, the family used the backdoor only, but strangers always went to the front door. So the dog only felt it was necessary to guard the front door, but would let absolutely anyone in through the back.

[Lorien]

23. Me too. I've also done pet rescue

and the only dog that ever actually attacked me was a Pekingese. I've had a Lab and a St. Bernard lunge at me, but thankfully neither bit me.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

27. I briefly fostered a pit bull recently.

He was about a year old. His landlords were evicted and they left him chained in the yard with no food or water in a ghetto neighborhood. He was out there for about two weeks, before his rescue. Fortunately for him, he was abandoned close to a school. Kids were hopping the fence and giving his food/water & playing with him after school. He got out of there because the kids told one of their teachers about the dog they visited everyday and she checked out the situation and got the dog out of there.

He was a big sweetheart and even given the conditions he was abandoned under, not even food-aggressive in the slightest.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Am I a racist coz I'm shitscared of Blue Heelers?

I think they're called Australian cattle dogs over there. If so, tough titties. I was attacked by one when I was a kid and I've been scared of them ever since. The one that attacked me was a family pet and had never bitten anyone before, and I didn't do anything to provoke it when it did attack....

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

61. I think it's an irrational fear but...

unless you're calling for getting rid of all Blue Heelers, then no.

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

251. Completely irrelevant side comment...

   I LOVE it! It's the Great Seal of Ramonia!
   Or is that Ramonistan? :rofl: :yourock: :headbang: :woohoo:

[elehhhhna]

135. So, Rex, are you an infant, toddler, or octagenarian? Do tell which.

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. Dog breeds are human constructs.

They are manufactured for the traits that buyers want. In the case of pit bulls, for size, jaw strength, belligerence and temper.

Buy a product that is less violent.

[2bfree]

190. I'm a little lost on the "fucking rascist" comment.

I've never heard of a breed of dog being a race, maybe you have them confused with human beings. :(

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

249. Since you mention it...

   ... I've been attacked three times in my life (I'm 57) by dogs...
   The first was an attack-trained former K-9 "Hunter" brought illegally back from Viet Nam in the early 1960s (I think I was 11 or 12 at the time, so that would make it 1960 or 61) who jumped an 8-foot chain link fence and went after me... AFTER (I found out later) having been goaded by the neighborhood brat pack less than ten minutes before I came through the alley on my way to the local swimming pool...
   Second, (in '74 or so) was a friend's Shepherd, sitting in the front seat of her VW Beetle (his accustomed spot) while I was in the back... I leaned forward to hear her better and the poor dog snapped, catching my cheek... no permanent damage done -- not even a scar -- but the poor girl was more traumatized than I was!
   So was the pup.
   The last time was about a year later, and was, again, a Shepherd, this one trained as a wrecking yard guard dog. This dog leaped an 8-foot cyclone fence and attacked me from above... It was widely known in the neighborhood, however, that the owner of the wrecking yard was a bad-tempered old coot who used a choke chain to "train" his dog and loved to sic his dog on the neighborhood kids...
   I don't know what could have prevented the incident with my friend... it's likely, nothing could have; I just chalked it up to bad luck... and, no, that dog was NOT a reflection of his master: "C" was a sweet and gentle as any human I've ever known... nor was she particularly skittish or jumpy, being even-tempered enough to work with high-risk psych patients in the local hospital.
   As I said: bad luck... sometimes shit happens.
   The others, however, were, in my opinion, cases of either terrible negligence and criminal bad judgment (the first one) or outright maliciousness and malevolence (the wrecking yard owner).   Why, in the first case, do I not blame the bad kids? Not to absolve them of responsibility, but they WERE a known nuisance in the neighborhood... the owner left his HIGHLY ILLEGAL, attack-trained dog alone in the back yard where he had to know the poor animal would be at the non-existent "mercy" of this roving band of thuggish punks... the result was utterly predictable.
   There is a reason why "Attack Dogs" are not brought back from the combat zone. He had been this dog's handler and knew better... he could have been court-martialed for a) not "putting down" the animal when his tour was up, and b) bringing the animal back to The World...
   Not once have I ever been attacked by any of the several breeds of dog commonly lumped under the label "Pit Bull"... and (as I mention in another post in this thread) my ex-sister-in-law raised REAL Pit Bulls for several years in her home.
   The REAL difficulty, as I see it, is that most pet owners don't really understand the fact that their pets are, in fact, ANIMALS... with very non-human ways of reacting and responding to the world. Most pet-owners will, of course, say "But of COURSE I know my Spike (or Mr Whiskers) is an animal"... but most treat their critters as if they truly were human... they have no visceral acceptance of the "different"-ness of their animal companions... and therein lies the difficulty.
   In most cases, small negligences are relatively harmless, but with larger, stronger breeds, or breeds which are closer to their hunting, predatory ancestry, even a small negligence is potentially too much... Personally, I'd like to see anyone wanting to "own" anything more mobile than a carp have to be trained, tested and licensed in the same way as someone wishing to operate a motor vehicle...
   On second thought, I'd prefer MUCH stiffer standards...
   Until this happens, and we start requiring HUMANS to be responsible, instead of making excuses for our own sloth, our own negligence, and BLAMING THE TOOL/ANIMAL for the consequences of that neglect, the results will be as predictable as turning a two-year-old loose with an Uzi...
   ... and again, Pogo will be proven right!

[Lithos]

17. Can you guarantee that people only breed them with other Pit Bulls?

Once you cross-breed them with another breed, then all of this "safety net" goes out the window and you might as well roll dice.

Most of the attacks I personally know of that caused severe damage (not the nip on the leg as you cycle by, but full on damage) were done by mixed breeds where a majority of the bloodline came from a pit bull.

L-

[johnaries]

26. There's nothing about a Pit Bull's genes that would make a mix

more dangerous. That was probably a coincidence because it's such a popular breed to begin with. The stories about it's powerful jaws and "never letting go" are myths. They do hold a bite longer instead of tearing and shredding. More from one of the links I posted in my OP:
http://acf2004.tripod.com/id8.html

Dr I Lehr Brisbin PhD Professor of Ecology at the Univeristy of South Carolina and a scientist for the US Department of Energy Savannah River Ecology Labratory in the field of animal behavior states:

" I have conducted extensive research on the two basis issues on the two basic issues raised by the controversy surrounding the anti-pit bull legislation, to wit: Is there any credible evidence that the bite of the pit bull is either stronger or more damaging than that of various other heavy breeds of dogs, and is there any credible evidence that pit bulls are more likely to attack and/or bite in a dangerous way than any other breed of dog?"

The studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that , in proportion to their size, their jaw structure, and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any other breed of dog of comparable size and build. Further, there is no evidence for the existence of any kind of "locking mechanism" unique to the structure of the jaws and / or teeth of pit bulls.

Films and eyewitness reports of the biting behavior of pit bull indicate that this breed tends to hold the bite for longer periods of time than other breeds which tend to slash, tear and then release. This holding type bite is less likely to cause seath from exsanguination (bleeding) which has been documented as one of the leading causes of death following severe dog bites. In their role as "catch dogs" used on livestock or big game, pit bulls have proven their ability to use this holdong type of bite to immobilize their quarry without causing serious injury or tissue damage, as compared to what would be expected of the slashing type bite of other breeds. It is for these reasons that pit bulls have long been specifically selected for use in the kind of work where it is important that the dogs quarry should not be seriously injured.

[Lithos]

46. The article above stated they were breed

For their "animal only aggression" and friendliness to humans. I was being a bit facetious above, the real point being that the people who are standing up for the breed are those wanting a pure breed. Anyone who raises dogs at all need to realize two things, those who are interested in pure breeds and who want to show them generally put in a lot of time and effort socializing and training their dogs. But, the main point is that dogs who are cross breed not only alter the genetic mix, but generally do so in a way which not only screws up the pedigree, but often creates/accentuates problems. Note that a fair number of people who are banking on some sort of uber guard dog/macho dog will look to a pit bull mix (usually with a rottweiler or some other dog).

I will also agree with you that socialization goes a long way with how a dog interacts with other dogs, animals and humans. That said, Pit Bulls suffer a bit higher problem with this due to their "status" and as such are among the top dogs with attacks to humans. Realize too that because they are a bit feared, they tend to be locked away a bit more than normal dogs, so any numbers are fairly low. Also too if you count fatal injuries, I believe Pit Bulls are the top offender.

Why is this? What makes their attacks a bit more dangerous? As for "locking" the jaw as most dogs do, Pit Bulls I agree they don't have that, rather they move their jaws back and forth which causes quite a bit of rending or scissoring damage (more blood). This was quite desired when they were being bred for dog-dog combat where such damage would cause the greater damage to the opposing dog. The Pit Bull also has a much higher bite strength (about 2 1/2 times that) of your "average" dog do to their musculature. Combined any attack by a Pit Bull will generally cause greater damage than any other dog.

This latter fact coupled with their "status" makes them indeed a fairly dangerous breed. Are they dangerous by themselves if bred and raised correctly? Probably not, but given that they are a breed that is often mal-used and that pit bulls are among the hardest breeds to recognize, then it makes having them around a significant problem.

The part breed mixes which caused problems that I described above? Pit Bull/Rottweiler (two) and Pit Bull/Mixed breed (half German Shephard). All were bred for house-hold security, all loved their family, all attacked neighborhood cats and dogs, all attacked humans sending several to the hospital, all were put euthanized as a danger.

L-

[DemExpat]

67. All Pitbull - type dogs here require certificates of breeding

while Pitbulls themselves are banned.

The way Pitbull fans defend the breed in our highly populated societies, one would take it that it is merely a shame that so many irresponsible and anti-social people have fallen for the "Myth" of Pitbull viciousness, attack urge and fighting strengths!
:eyes:


Perhaps if they are generally banned and rooted out, responsible breeders and lovers of the breed's positives can eventually establish a more regulated and safe breed for licensed ownership only.


DemEx

[johnaries]

125. But many BSL's ban all "pit-bull" types, not just the registered

breed.

And, people who want dangerous dogs have already began importing and breeding other breeds of dogs. Again, ANY large breed of dog can be dangerous if you teach it to be dangerous.

Remember when Doberman's were considered the most dangerous breed?

The problem is not the breed, and Breed Specifc Laws are useless. Worse than useless. Go after irresponsible and dangerous owners. That's the only effective way to curb fatal dog attacks.

edit: spelling.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

164. German Shepherds had the honor for awhile too.

[unblock]

32. yes, it's all a conspiracy to underreport basset hound maulings!

maybe there's nothing wrong with "the breed" per se, maybe it's just that the people who want viscious dogs chose pit bulls (or dogs that resemble pit pulls) for no good reason.

whatever, i'm still not turning my back on one, and i'll still feel safer around a basset hound.

[johnaries]

37. Bassets ARE dangerous! Don't you remember all the DROOPY

cartoons? That poor Wolf never stood a chance!
:evilgrin:
PS, I love all breeds! When I was a paperboy, there was only one dog on my route I couldn't make friends with. Luckily, the other dogs on my route protected me from him. Now THAT was something to see!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

39. For all the people that misuse pit bulls, there are far more people

that understand and appreciate the breed, who treat it properly and raise fine, trustworthy pit bulls. Hysteria is a major problem with people when it comes to pit bulls. Instead of BSL, we need to toughen our laws regarding animal cruelty and dog fighting. That will be far more effective than BSL and it will also save the lives of many pit bull-type dogs, who are not dangerous and come from loving family, but often have to be put down because of some asshats creating dangerous dogs and the hysteria that results.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. The RSPCA supports a ban on Pit Bulls...

"The RSPCA and a pit bull terrier victim are calling on the State Government to follow NSW's lead and ban dangerous dogs.

…

RSPCA national president Hugh Wirth applauded Mr Carr's bid to breed American pit bull terriers out of existence in preference to slaughtering the dogs, a plan that drew a public outcry when proposed overseas.

Dr Wirth said the American pit bull was a pure breed genetically designed for fighting.

"The problem we've got in Australia is we've got a large number of irresponsible dog owners of American pit bull terriers who refuse to recognise the potential of the dog as a fighting, aggressive machine," he said.

"(They) don't keep this very special dog in a way that it can not possibly hurt any member of the community, or any other animal for that matter."

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/PARLMENT/hansArt.nsf/V3Key/LC20050504050

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

38. Breed specific legislation doesn't work.

We need much tougher penalties for those that abuse and fight dogs. If one breed is banned, then they'll simply be replaced by another breed. Also, people think a pit bull is anything that may potentially appear to have pit bull somewhere in it's heritage. That covers a couple dozen breeds and mixes thereof.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. I'm all for strict licensing, especially when it comes to breeding...

The fact is that there's dickheads out there (and I assume it's the same in the US) who only want a dog because it looks tough and they treat the dog like shit coz they think that'll make it 'tough'. They then let them run loose or don't have secure fencing in their yards, and then are the first to blame the victim when an attack happens. Those are the people who shouldn't be allowed to own dogs, especially particular breeds (like dobermans, german shepherds, pit bulls, etc) that are the only ones they're interested in getting their hands on....

Dog ownership is a big responsibility and I think anyone who wants one as a pet, regardless of the breed, should be vetted before they own one. When I adopted my dog from the RSPCA, they interviewed me, came and checked out the house and yard, and made sure me and the dog were a good match. In my case it was a cocker spaniel, and the only danger Nigel posed was getting tangled up in my feet with his 'pat me! pat me! pat me!' routine, but I think it should apply to all dogs....

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

53. Yes, it is a big responsibility.

Everyone needs to seriously think about what they're getting into with any dog. However, I believe that we're better off with better enforcement of the current laws and harsher penalties, as opposed to punishing a particular breed or responsible owners. Rescues and responsible breeders (even of pit bulls) thoroughly screen their potential adopter/buyers. I'm all for that. I am adamantly against Breed Specific Legislation though.

Personally, the only breeds I like are the so-called dangerous breeds. They're what I've been exposed to and as such, I know that with responsible owners, they're not dangerous breeds.

BTW, Cocker Spaniels score lower on temperment tests than pit bulls.

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

253. May Canis the Dog God spare me from ANKLE-BITERS!!!!!

   Give me a "so-called dangerous breed" anytime!
   Hell, I'VE been called a "dangerous breed"!

[johnaries]

123. Yes, I can agree with that. I've known too many dog owners

who shouldn't have been allowed to own a dog. And it's not just the breeders' fault.

There are a lot of people who just want a "watchdog", not a family pet. So, they think a watchdog has to be mean. Which simly is not true. The owner treats the animal as a "thing", not as a loyal companion, and then the dog becomes a hazard to the community. But the best watchdogs are loyal, loving, and well-cared for but under voice command.

The best watchdog I ever had was a Shepherd/Basenji mix I got at the pound. For instance, some strangers tried to knock on my door one time, and they told me that he let them into the yard but - without attacking - he let them know in no uncertain terms they would not get to the door. Of course, after I called him back and let him know they were not a threat, he would let them pet him.

[Protagoras]

218. agreed

specific breed issues aside (and there are some) the core problem is we don't do NEARLY enough to limit puppy mills, backyard breeding, animal abuse, and irresponsible ownership (starts to sound like some other parenting issues.)

It's not just the neighborhood who suffers from cretins who won't train or control or treat their animals well. It's the animals. I don't want to hurt pit bulls and I don't want them to hurt me. I do have some uncharitable urges toward the slimebag breeders and owners who create animals who are prone to more violence or moreso the slimebags who TRAIN and ABUSE animals to the point of their being out of control.

Maybe we shouldn't allow people to just HAVE any dog just cuz they think it's neat...maybe we should really examine the ownership of another living being a bit more like a privilege and responsibility and then license and sanction it accordingly ....I am sure I'm not popular among the libertarians right now but...oh well.

[Rex]

50. Are you saying Spuds McKinze was a walking terror!?

I thought he just partied and drank suds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Terrier

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Rick Springfield is the walking terror!

Shame on you for bringing up such terrible music!! ;)

[Rex]

54. LOL!

Yeah but he was cool on Battlestar Galactica! :evilgrin:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

58. Spuds was awesome.

Although, I'm sure the kool-drinking bully haters out there must think he was a terrible menace.

[Rex]

65. You know what's funny? I've a zillion weird animal stories.

The weirdest of all was watching my huge orange cat "fluffy" chase two teacup Chihuahuas around the block (yes entire block). I'd yell at him everytime to knock it off and my neighbors would look at my like I was crazy (fair enough). He ate both of them 3 years later. I made the mistake of not realizing they tortured him as a kitten for years. He hated those dogs. I guess I could have had him declawed, but I just didn't realize it until I found him eating em.

Actually people should just be very thankful that domestic cats don't weigh 50 or 60 pounds. We'd have a massive fight on our hands for domination.

Oh yeah...if cats start growing folks, because of genetically modified foods...well...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. My aunt had a Maine Coon that was extremely protective of my sister

for some unknown reason. It's not like we lived there. We just visited once in awhile. Anyway, the cat would go after anyone messing with my sister. One day, my dad decided to pretend like he was hitting her to see what the cat would do. To make a long story short, stitches were required.

[Rex]

74. I have a 25 pound black tabby that's nearly ripped a malamutes nose off.

He ran off a 40 pound german shepard, but nearly broke his left arm. The dog ran off with huge chunks of fur and flesh following. Blood was everywhere and I never saw the dog again. He might have wondered off and died. My cats btw live side by side with the pitbull and a terrier mix. They've had scrapes, but never fight.

[Kailassa]

80. If cats start growing folks ...

well I sure hope they'll treat us as well as we treat our cat.

He's god of this house and he knows it.

Actually he has a heart like a pit-bull and is bigger than most. He is incredibly fast and has huge claws, teeth like razors, and a bad temper. And, even in a good mood, he can get overly playful and do a lot of damage. He's not allowed near children or strangers except under close supervision, and I hate to think what he'd be like if he was with people he was not so loving and loyal towards. As it is, I've been able to hold him while he's had veterinary procedures done, because he trusts me, and, when he loses his temper, which is usually because something has upset and frightened him, I take no notice of his slashing claws, and kiss his nose. He has never scratched my face yet, although you can see the self control takes a lot of effort.

There are animals in all species that can be like this, including humans. We call it "having heart". A person or animal "with heart" will stick with you through thick and thin, they are brave and loyal, and they will never feel at home at a cocktail party.

And the typical pit-bull has "heart". They can make the most wonderful friends, which is why pit-bull lovers are coming out of the woodwork to defend them. Any notion that a dog that has never hurt anyone should be put down just because it is a pit-bull is abominable, many are loved and trustworthy members of human families, and killing them would be murder.

However people owning animals that are capable of doing real damage have a real obligation to society to ensure that their animals do not hurt anyone, and a person whose animal has severely hurt anyone without a good reason should never be allowed to own a potentially dangerous animal again.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

81. A wonderful post!

My cat, Midnight, who is all of 8lbs, is a "red file" animal at the vet office. I think everyone there bears scars from her. She got her "red file" when in a feat defying physics, she managed to get around the vet, as he was taking her out of the carrier, and latch onto his ass. He spent a couple minutes hopping around, screaming, and trying to get her off, while she just went for the ride.

[Kailassa]

82. Oh that poor vet, and I'm cracking up laughing ...

Apollo used to do that to me as a kitten, if he wanted to be picked up and I walked past without noticing. Luckily he's learned that is not acceptable behaviour. ;-)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

85. For some reason, that particular vet in the group had bad luck with

our animals.

Yes, it was hilarious. I was there with my dad and we had to try so hard not to laugh, as we were inching towards the door to shut it, so we didn't have an enraged cat running out into the waiting room.

We ended up not using him anymore for the cats & dog, because they all hated him. Now we just use him for the rabbits (because he's the small animal vet there). The rabbits are fine with him, but they're the most even-temperered of our menagerie.

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

257. Back in '90, we got adopted...

   ... by a 7 pound (or so) bundle of cream soda-colored felinity my ex promptly named "Root Beer"...
   Root Beer was the Lord of the Projects... there was, for example, a large, rather vicious Shepherd who belonged to a family we all KNEW (but could never prove, hence they weren't evicted) were dealing crack cocaine (and at least two of the daughters) out of the house.
   This dog weighed an easy 100, maybe 110, and walked the streets sans leash (another violation) at will... until, that is, the day he disturbed Root Beer "taking the sun"...
   After that, until the day we left a year later, that Shepherd never came near our lot, preferring to take the "scenic route" around the neighbor's duplex...
   I'll refrain from telling the raccoon story...
   You're right about cats... fortunately, the ones I've lived with seemed to like me, so I guess I'm safe...

[johnaries]

152. Great post! well said!

:applause:

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

255. BRAVO!!! Well Said!

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

254. You want "weird critter tales"?

   I once dated a gal from Denver... The family dog was this Dachshund-Shepherd cross (yeah, strike ONE!) named Hoover, because of his resemblance to one of those old upright vacuum cleaners (Annie's mom had one of 'em... this was back in '73)... his butt-end was considerably taller than his front...
   I often wondered how those two mated to breed him...
   The truly weird thing about Hoover (the dog, not the vacuum cleaner), however, was his sexual preference...
   ... I kid you not: this dog would not go NEAR the neighborhood bitches; they could not breed the silly thing, no matter what stratgems they used... just like my cousin the (now-retired) cop, females scared the kibble out of Hoover...
   ... but bring another MALE around...
   Yup! Hoover would treat any male dog just like an ordinary male would treat a female... for as long as it took the other male to get over the shock, then "Good Night, Irene!"
   Hoover got attacked frequently, and it was a hoot watching him run away (those little dachshund legs would be a blur, trying to keep up with the back end)... almost like he had rear-wheel drive!
   But he never stopped chasing male tail...
   What happened? I don't know... Annie and I stopped going out and I moved away a few months after.

[johnaries]

147. Interesting statement on that link,

"Sometimes bull terriers are mistaken to be American Pit Bull Terriers, but they are separate breeds (although related); both are generally friendly."

Thanks!

[Rex]

196. I think all domesticated animals are generally friendly

unless you throw a rock or beat on an animal, then it gets down right mean no matter what species. I've seen it done to pitbulls and kids. Same result. Mean people = mean pets.

[johnaries]

43. Well, the ASPCA disagrees.

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cruelty_pitbull

But did you know that pit bulls, despite the fact that they were originally bred to fight with each other, were also bred to be trustworthy and friendly to people? These dogs actually earned the nickname "nursemaid's dog," because they were so reliable with young children.

So does the SF/SPCA:

http://www.sfspca.org/advocacy/pit_bulls.shtml

Pit bulls aren't naturally bad. But some pit bull owners are. They are the ones who train dogs to be mean and vicious. They're the ones who allow dogs to be ripped to shreds in training bouts and dog fights. And they're the ones who need to be punished — not the dogs.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. I don't think anyone over here gives a shit what the ASPCA says...

I tend to pay attention to what the RSPCA has to say, and, well, they're saying something very different to what yr lot are saying...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. Well, most of us are Americans on this board.

Also, the ASPCA is going by facts, whereas the RSPCA is going by media hysteria. Ban the whole lot of them instead of focusing on the people actually causing the problem. It's sad really.

[johnaries]

121. So, the RSPCA is right no matter what every other canine

society in the world says?

Not meaning to start a US vs Aussie thing here, but you've got the American Canine Society, ASPCA,SFPCA, and the ATTS on one side and the CDC and the RSPCA on the other. And the CDC findings have already been disproven.

What does that say?

[Critters2]

199. The American Canine Society was started as a pro-pit bull lobby

Sounds objective, but it isn't. And I trust the CDC over any of 'em.

[johnaries]

235. OK, then how about

The American Veterinary Medical Association, the ASPCA, the Natinal Animal Control Association, the Humane Society of the US, The American Humane Society, the National Canine Research Foundation, rhe American Dog Owners Association, and the Supreme Court of New York?

You can find links to their opinions and findings at this website:
http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/topic.php?id=21&topic=17

Of course, the Animal Farm Foundation is dedicated to the plight of the Pit Bull, but that's not how they started.

http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/item.php?id=51&topic=0&item=2

Animal Farm Foundation, Inc. has been in operation since the early 1980's making a stand against cruelty to animals. We now dedicate our efforts, through a variety of services, to the plight of the American Pit Bull Terrier. A plight of undeserved and unspeakable cruelty.

Help us make the pit bull a symbol of our unified fight against cruelty and help us return him to our circle of compassion.

[roguevalley]

40. they are a lovely breed. some of their owners are bastards.

[Clark2008]

56. I have no problem with them, per se.

Just try selling your house when you live next door to a couple.

Criminey!

[MarkDevin]

59. Every pit bull I've ever met was loving and affectionate.

Best I can tell you.

[idgiehkt]

144. Not mine.

She was loving and affectionate to me, and my closest non-human relationship for over a decade. But she was leash aggressive and had a very short fuse. She had 'prey drive' problems so I couldn't trust her around cats, puppies, or other smaller animals. These are all traits of pit bulls.

They have a some difficult tempermental traits and denial about these traits is pathetically irresponsible. Pair those traits with their musculature and the amount of pressure per square inch that they can exert with their jaw and you have a potential killing machine. (If you bring up the fact that rotties and other breeds fit this profile then so what, ban them or muzzle them too, I don't care). I don't see much hope to stop these breed bans because pit bull advocates are being so childish, unrealistic and short-sighted, and unfortunately, if the advocates can't help this breed then who is left? No one. The drug-dealer dog fighters that breed them into a life of torment are not going to wage a crusade on their behalf. The public is fed up by the headlines of one death after another. City officials are sick and tired of dealing with the liability issues. Watching pit bull advocates dig in their heels and act like children every time it comes to making concessions to protect both their dogs and public welfare is just devastating. I just don't want to be around for the moaning and gnashing of teeth as the breed is eventually banned, due to the childish behavior of people who claim to love this breed the most.

[Critters2]

200. Well said

Thank you

[Rex]

209. Nice childish post.

:thumbsup: There are no more Old English Bulldogs anymore. Why? They bred the species out of existence. If they do it to Pitbulls, overimaginative people will just find another dog to 'profile'.

Oh but wait, I own a pitbull mix so anything I say is childish etc... :eyes:

[nosmokes]

62. the problem with pits is almost always the owners, but that damn jaw lock

thing they got going doesn't help their image much either. but i have known a couple of pits that were fine dogs. i don't reccommend them because they may have a tendency to be aggressive with other dogs. this is a problem if you're in a urban/suburban situation where you're going to be encountering other dogs on a regular basis. you can cross the dog park off your list of places to take fido for exercise, and if there is ever an altercation involving your pitbull you can bet you'll be paying the bills, no matter which dog started it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. Pit bulls do not and can not lock their jaws.

It is an urban myth. Their jaws work the same as any other breed. They have a strong bite, but their jaws do not lock.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Hold owners COMPLETELY responsible for any crimes their dogs commit

i.e. your dog kills a jogger, or mauls a little kid? YOU go to jail as if you did the crime.

Make that the law of the land, and I wouldn't give a shit what kind of crazy aggro dogs people with penis issues feel the need to keep.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

66. Exactly!

Probably my next dog will be a pit bull. I'm against BSL because I should not be punished for the crimes of others. Go after those who create dangerous pit bulls and let them loose on society. Toughen the penalties and throw the book at them. However, people who raise good pit bulls (most pit bull owners) should not be punished by BSL.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. We've had a series of nasty dog attacks in our area in recent years

Starting with that woman in San Francisco.

Something's gotta be done. Like I said, I lean towards holding the individual owners responsible- to the point that, if your dog kills someone, that's murder. Period. I would think that would be more of a deterrent to keeping these psycho dogs than anything else.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

73. The woman in San Francisco was not attacked by a pit bull, BTW.

It was a Presa Canario. Another breed that will unfortunately, soon be public enemy #1.

Anyway, as to your last comment, it's not the breed that's psycho. It's what the owners turn them into. Any dog can be made mean. Unfortunately, pit bulls are one of the breeds that can seriously cause damage when that happens. Most are good dogs though.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. That's what I mean. A deterrent from keeping psycho dogs.

However they get to be that way. I'm not opposed to specific dog breeds, I'm opposed to people who feel like their manhood requires them to keep these crazy fucking dogs that end up jumping through broken slats in a fence and attacking little kids. I want that kind of thing to stop.

[johnaries]

178. The owner of the dog that killed the 71-year-old woman

in Kansas had a history of dog abuse:
http://www.kshb.com/kshb/nw_local_news/article/0,1925,KSHB_9424_4875312,00.html

Police say in June, 2004, Animal Control took two pit bulls from the house in the 3100 block of Longwood. One dog was dead and the other emaciated. The second dog was euthanized.

Officials say that house had been condemned due to a lack of utilities. However, someone was keeping two pit bulls there again,

Yes, I agree we need some kind of deterrent, and many times it's the owners who make the dogs psycho. Although sometimes the dogs can be psycho by themselves - ANY breed.

Personally, I think the dog owner in this case should be tried for Manslaughter.

[Warren DeMontague]

214. I'll go one further; Murder.

Like I said upthread. If your pet commits a crime, it should be legally equivalent to YOU committing the same crime. That would make people think twice about keeping dangerous pets.

I could live with that law- if my cat shits on someone's lawn, I'm fully prepared to do the time.

[Rex]

70. I would endorse a bill making trained guard dogs a lethal weapon

no prob.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

75. I can agree with that.

If you're going to train a guard dog, then you have to register and prove you're capable of doing it right. Basically, I'm fine with Schutzhund dogs. Schutzhund training produces excellent trustworthy guard and tracking dogs, who you could leave to guard your children. Simply training a dog to attack should be illegal.

[Rex]

77. Yes

because 99% of the people who just train dogs to attack breed dogs to fight in illegal dog fights. At least that is what I've experienced around here. It is very rural out where I live, maybe 3000 people tops.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

78. I grew up in a pretty bad urban area.

Very poor, lots of crime, et cetera. Many of the people there were keeping pit bulls for the wrong reasons. We had a great pit bull mix (who was previously abused) but dogfighting was a problem. And lots of drug dealers kept attack pit bulls.

Eventually, we moved out of there. Now I'm in upper-middle class suburbia. I know quite a few pit bulls, but they're all good family pets and no more of a threat than any other family dog.

It really depends on their owners. There's nothing wrong with having a dog specifically trained in protection, but it needs to be done properly and by someone very knowledgeable. Most people aren't up for that.

[Rex]

79. True, I have relatives that hate dogs and cringe around them.

Raccoons? What 2 raccoons? What??? 3 possums but no to dogs? They have 2 raccoons and 3 possums and hate dogs!

I've also seen people beat the hell out of dogs and make them meaner then shit. I've reported dog abuse quite a few times. My pit was poisoned and nearly died when he was two. Someone was going around our neighborhood poisoning cats and dogs for about 2 weeks. One of my cats ate some of the poison and died in my arms. I've never seen a cat spit up blood and die in 10 minutes. It was very horrible because he was one of the sweetest cats I've ever owned.

The cat screamed like a baby. :(

[elehhhhna]

149. Maybe the rels prefer something that poops in the house? Euuuuw.

[Rex]

195. Oh no, they don't come into the house.

My aunt and uncle have a fish pond and feed their 'animals' out of cat food bowls, just like cats! The raccoons will wash their hands in the pond after eating, like smart little kids with dirty hands! When I saw it, I nearly fell over. Now I've seen everything...

[TorchTheWitch]

86. ALL dog owners should register

their dogs. Many counties already require this and require all dogs to wear a county issued tag on their collar. ANY dog is capable under the right circumstances to hurt or kill someone. ALL dog owners should be required to register their dog(s) so that any time a dog attack happens it can be readily determined who is the responsible party.

All dog owners should be required to have their dog obedience trained (far too many dog owners have no stinking idea how to properly train a dog and many don't bother to train their dogs at all). This obedience training needs to include teaching owners responsibility in owning and caring for a dog, not just teaching owners to make their dog sit, stay, walk on lead and heel.

ALL dogs need to be leashed in public and properly supervised and confined/controlled at all times. ANY dog that has bitten anyone or anyone else's pet without just cause should be required to wear a cage muzzle when out in public (a cage muzzle allows a dog to breath freely, pant and drink but protects others from being bitten... example: http://www.dogmuzzle.com/wirbasdogmuz.html).

The community needs to help police dog owners. Far too many times people know of dangerous dogs or have witnessed examples of irresponsible ownership yet do nothing about it other than grumble. The authorities can't do anything about irresponsible owners and their uncontrolled dogs if no one complains. The authorities need to strictly enforce the dog laws and respond to complaints of irresponsible owners and their uncontrolled dogs.

Penalties for violations must be harsh... a measley few hundred dollar fine for someone abusing a dog and allowing it to roam freely menacing people and their pets is worthless.

ALL dog breeders must be licensed and proven to be responsible. There needs to be a reasonable cap on how many dog breeders are permitted in the area, what type of dogs they breed and how many pups they produce. All of the pups produced must be registered as well as all sales.

ALL dog owners who are not licensed breeders must have their dog(s) spayed or neutered to prevent accidental breeding and many dog escapes as dogs who are capable of breeding will try a lot harder to escape in order to participate in the mating ritual.

ALL owners of guard/attack trained dogs must be more closely monitored to ensure those dogs are properly trained, confined and controlled. I don't believe registering those dogs as leathal weapons would be at all helpful as long as all dog owners must be registered anyway, and the penalties for a properly guard/attack trained dog mauling someone is already the same as a dog that is not properly guard/attack trained mauling someone. Then again, a properly guard/attack trained dog isn't going to attack anyone unprovoked, and their owners are far more likely to be responsible.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. Yeah, where I live cats and dogs must be licensed.

We're in the middle-of-nowhere part of town, so it's not patroled as much, but in the more populated areas, if they see an animal without a tag in the yard, they're delivering a fine right there.

They also need a rabies shot to get their license, which is good (and the town gives the shots for free).

[johnaries]

179. I agree with that. nt

[Cocoa]

132. they already are

the owner of the dog that killed 71-year-old Jimmie May McConnell is being charged with involuntary manslaughter.

[Warren DeMontague]

215. Well, I think some of these cases warrant murder charges.

No question.

[johnaries]

228. I think for murder you have to prove intent. It would be hard to get

a conviction. Involuntary maslaughter should be a slam-dunk.

[Rex]

232. You could find intent. If it can be proven that the dogs have a 'trigger'

word to attack on command. To me that is no different than pulling a real trigger.

[xultar]

84. It isn't the dogs' fault. It is the OWNERS FAULT!!!

[China_cat]

88. There's one big problem in that first citation

The AKC does NOT recognize nor register the ABT, so talking about 'AKC bloodlines' is terribly misleading from that standpoint. From a second standpoint, the AKC does not keep studbooks or breeding information. That is left mainly to local and national breed organizations.

If they can get that much wrong, how can you trust their other information? They might be right...I'm not saying they aren't...just that if they are, they don't need to lie about other things that are so easily checked.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. Well, they do say in the article that in the AKC...

they're registered as American Staffordshire Terriers, not as American Pit Bull Terriers.

[China_cat]

119. Amstaffs are a totally different breed.

They don't even LOOK like ABTs.

[OnionPatch]

246. ABT, APBT

ABT is the American Bull Terrier like Spuds McKenzie, a completely different dog than a pit bull, which, I assume is what you refer to when you say APBT (American "Pit" Bull Terrier)

According to my numerous dog books, the American Staffordshire Terrier is one and the same dog as a "pit bull." The name "American Pit Bull Terrier" is not an official recognized name for them. "Pit Bull" is simply the common name for them. My books say that they originated in the UK but the "American" type was bred to be bigger and stronger for fighting thus got the nickname "pit" attached to them.

I guess my books and I could be wrong. :shrug:

[China_cat]

248. You're right about the alphabet soup

but what is known as the American Pit Bull Terrier is actually a mix of Amstaff and one of the smaller mastiffs. The breed that started in the UK was the Staffordshire. The Amstaff is a bastard breed from that.

All of the bull and mastiff type dogs were used in the UK and most of Europe for bear baiting, bull baiting and other blood sports that were conducted in actual pits...which is where the 'pit' came from. Recording of these events goes back to the middle ages.

[Lucy - Claire]

92. They are banned in the UK

They became famous for mauling children and regarded as deadly and too dangerous to own.
It is not because of irresponsible training, some dogs can turn on their owners in a flash.

[Arkansas Granny]

103. I have no doubt that the statistics you cite are true. I also have

no doubt that the majority of dogs referred to as pit bulls that are involved in dog attacks against humans are not the pure bred dogs that these statistics are based upon.

In my part of the country, dogfighting has been a popular "sport" for some time and dogs are bred and prized for their aggressive tendencies. I would just about bet that most of the pit bull type dogs around here have come from these bloodlines. Not only are they selectively bred for these tendencies, many people inbreed them to come up with what are referred to as "crazy dogs" that are especially aggressive and unpredictable.

Another big factor is that the people who own these dogs get them because of their current "macho" status. Most are kept chained or confined to small areas with little or no exercise. Most are never trained or socialized. It is not uncommon to hear these people brag about how many small animals their dogs have killed. Dogs like this can be dangerous and are probably the ones involved in the majority of reports of pit bull attacks.

I have met many pit bulls over the years. Some have been good natured, friendly dogs. However, the majority of them have not been. Some people blame the owners for this because of lack of training, but when a dog has been bred for generations for aggressive characteristics, I don't believe that you can completely train those instincts out of them. Some dogs are bred to hunt, some are bred to herd and pit bulls have been bred to fight and kill.

As far as statistics go, you can usually find some study that will give you the results that you are looking for. For example, see this study by the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

I have owned and loved dogs all my life, but I would never keep a dog who had ever shown unprovoked aggression toward a human. I don't think anyone should take that risk.

[blonndee]

113. Very reasonable.

I am not in favor of breed bans, but I would definitely support some sort of legislation regulating breeding of them. It wouldn't be 100% effective, but then neither are breed bans.

As far as your last comment, neither would I keep such a dog. If one of my dogs did this, as much as I love them (I consider them my family), I would put them down. It's irresponsible and dangerous to keep a human-aggressive dog.

[johnaries]

155. The articles point out that the CDC study was flawed and biased

and was done specifically to support BSL. As the article says, there was no study done on the populations of different breeds. Without including a ratio of attacks to population, you can't have a meaningful study.

Also, as several articles point out, many of the attacks blamed on Pit Bulls were actually done by other breeds of dogs.

Also, as several articles point out, Pit Bulls have primarily been bred to NOT be human agressive since they were first bred.

[Critters2]

201. The source of your articles is biased, as well

A lobbying group. Hardly objective. I'll take the CDC's stats, thanks.

[JCMach1]

107. Was chased by these 'wonderful' dogs as a child

On a number of occasions, my loyal German Shepherd protected me from being straight-up attacked...

Sorry, but I hate them!

[Gormy Cuss]

108. The "truth" about the linked website

The ACF is a lobbying group specifically focused on fighting against breed-specific legislation.

http://acf2004.tripod.com/id1.html
"Because we are invovled in mostly lobbying of canine legislation we can't file for 501c3. However we can still receive donations, IRS will not allow organizations that's main agenda is lobbying legislation to become a 501c3 non-profit corporation. "

In other words, they have a vested interest in presenting only data points which support their lobbying objectives.


And no, I'm not someone who supports banning specific breeds just because and I've known very nice pits, Rotties, Dobies, and German Shepherds at the time when each breed was in fashion as the attack dog of choice.

[johnaries]

157. Ah, but in subsequent posts I have also quoted

the ASPCA, the SFPCA, and the ATTS. This website just had the most information in one spot. There are plenty of other sites to back them up.

[Gormy Cuss]

169. That's fine, but I was commenting on the OP.

It's important to consider the source when trying to assess the merit of the argument. I read the ACF links, and I looked around. I assume that some commenting here didn't see that ACF was a lobbying group and I posted the info to make that clear. That's not challenging the data they presented, it's a caution that they may be ignoring data that refutes their positions.

[johnaries]

176. That's fair. I agree people should "consider the source" and

do some additional research of their own.
Thanks!

[flvegan]

110. Pit bull rescuer, here

My rescue has taken in dogs of all shapes, sizes, breeds and backgrounds. Puppy mill dogs to abused bassets. Danes and mastiffs to fox terriers. Above all, mostly we've taken in pit bulls and their kinds. Ex fighters to ex-bait dogs. Breeders to "left on the side of the road to die." Not once, not once single time have we ever had an issue with a single one of them. We take care in how we rehab them, and nobody leaves here until he or she is ready. The pit bull is a wonderful breed of dog that has been spun by the media into an animal that invokes fear. You'll note that when a dog kills/maims/attacks a person, the headline reads differently. If it's a German Shepherd, the headline is "Dog kills child in yard" but when it's a pit bull, it's "Pit bull mauls, kills child in front of family" and it's total bullshit. It's little more than the same kool-aid offering that all too many of the right have consumed, and it's little more than laughable to see so much consumption on this side.

[shrike]

115. I sort of "rescued" a pit bull recently

One showed up in the vacant lot next to my house. He wouldn't let me near him but I noticed he had a collar, so I started leaving food for him. After the fourth day he was waiting for me to appear with his dish and I left him a blanket to sleep on. After a night with my blanket he was ready to follow me into the house. I could tell he was somebody's pet by the way he made himself at home and sniffed rather curiously at my cat (she sniffed back; she likes dogs.) I actually considered keeping him because he was such a sweet guy -- and so intelligent; you could see it in his eyes. But it turned out somebody was looking for him; he'd gone out wandering and couldn't find his way home. Besides, my dog, a lab, cried after I brought him in the house so it was just as well.

I used to fear pit bulls but my recent experience with this one has changed my mind.

[flvegan]

117. You're a kind soul.

Glad person and dog were reunited, as well.

[calico1]

118. I am going to hide this thread as I have all the other

pit bull threads because it upsets me so to see people in favor of eliminating a dog breed and to read some of the comments about this breed. But before I do, I just wanted to thank you for the work you do. I adopted my Rottie from a rescue organization too. She has been a wonderful addition to our home and a sweeter, gentler dog you could not ask for. I personally am especially drawn to dog breeds that are discriminated against precisely because they are and I know that makes them in even more dire need of good homes. This is my second Rottie. I also have neighbors who have a bit pull and she is a playful, goofy dog. I don't feel threatened at all. Thanks again for the fine work you do! :hi:

[johnaries]

161. On behalf of dog lovers everywhere,

thank you for all your work!
:patriot::toast::applause:

[OnionPatch]

181. I had drank the kool-aid

and I had never known a pit bull before a stray one wandered into our yard two years ago. Granted, she is part something else, what, we don't know, but most obviously she looks like a pit. No way did I want a pit bull. After a month of trying to find homes and finding out that they automatically put down pitbulls in our local animal shelters, we decided to keep her because she was hands down the nicest, sweetest, most lovable dog we have ever encountered. You could take a steak out of her mouth and she would let you and just wag her tail and kiss you. She tries to be on my lap at every moment although she's huge. She loves playing with and getting attention from kids and is very gentle and tolerant with them, too. (I think she came into our yard because she heard children playing.) I have never seen a hint of aggression from her in the two years we've had her. I suppose she may surprise us someday, but I would have hated for a good dog like her to be "put down" simply because she is a pit bull. Just saying, I guess, that there are some good ones out there at least.

[shrike]

239. We had a similar experience

This pit was a boxer mix, and maybe a few other breeds. He was more afraid of me than I was of him; he was a stray who showed up in the vacant lot next to our house. I noticed he had a collar, and so I kept leaving food out for him. He was waiting for me to bring him his dish by the fourth day, and then I left him one of our blankets to sleep on. The next day he was ready to come in the house with me. Made himself right to home, but it turned out he was someone's pet -- I could tell, by the way he conducted himself once he got in the house. Very well behaved. He'd gone out wandering and couldn't find his way home. (Someone I know who used to own pits says the males are famous for wandering, even when they're fixed.) Very sweet, very intelligent. Changed my opinions of pits.

[B3Nut]

252. I'd take my hat off to you

but I don't currently own a hat ;)

My wife and I do Pit Bull rescue too, working as WI reps of a large rescue in Chicago (www.chicagopitbulls.org). It's often thankless, but I hate seeing these dogs not get at least a shot at a decent life. All the ones we currently have as our own dogs are rescues, we often keep the special-needs dogs since my wife's a veterinary assistant and knows how to deal with special-needs animals. But I really like taking a dog to its new home, and seeing how happy the people and the dog are...it makes it all worth it.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Skittles]

120. I used to use an ex-boyfriend's pit bull as a pillow

what a lovable pile of fur that dog was

[Mr_Spock]

148. Hard to be sympathetic after having one sneak up on me and bite me

in the ass. I've never seen an animal sneak up on a human and bite from behind like that. I've met some very sweet Pit Bulls in my time, but I avoid those I am not familiar with. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

[Critters2]

202. One sneaked up and attacked my beagle at a dog park

I have no use for them.

[LynneSin]

150. All pitbulls should be muzzled - don't fool yourself they are 'lovable'

because if they are provoked they will attack and they can kill.

My best friend adopted a pitbull puppy. She already had a Lab/Dachshund mix and a beagle and decided to adopt one of the pit bull puppies that came into the local shelter.

She had that puppy for over a year and the pit bull frolicked with the other 2 dogs and was like a kitten that curled up into your lap whenever one was available.

Then about a year after owning the pit, she was away for 2 days. A neighbor was going to feed the dogs for the day she was gone. But what my friend came back to was a nightmare. We're not sure why, but the pit bull had mauled to death the lab/Dach mix to death. I mean I saw for my own eyes these two dogs play together and snuggle together for sleep time and yet something tripped in the pit bull's mechacism and the Lab/Dach mixed who had been in the family for 10+ years was brutally murder. Of course the pit bull had to then be put to sleep because she was now a violent risk.

I know that I'll get a slew of replies at how "This isn't my Pit Bull" and "It's how they are raised". But you're just kidding yourselves. Perhaps you'll be lucky and never go through what my friend experienced or perhaps one day, some child or other pet will provoke your pit bull and then you'll have the same nightmare.

I know it's impossible to get rid of all the pit bulls, which personally I rate right below a cockroach as a menace. But the least we can do is require muzzles on the damn dogs especially anytime they are outside of the home. You want to put your kids & pets to risk, go for it. But I'm tired of reading in my paper how the neighbor kid got mauled by a pitbull.

[IsIt1984Yet]

184. We all have stories, Lynne. My friend was MAULED by a black LAB.

Kill em all. :eyes:

[LynneSin]

188. I still have scars from a poodle bite

and my friend (the one who had the pit bull) has bite scars on her face from a Great Dane

The thing is, overwhelmingly it's pit bulls that you read about when there has been a traumatic dog attack, more so than the labadors, poodles, and great danes out there.

I never said that killing was the solution, my ulitmate solution as in the title is that we require all pit bulls MUZZLED when outside of the home.

As for these other dogs - yes, it is unpredictable and perhaps these are incidents of where the animal is not in a nuturing home and trained to be friendly. If dogs attack like you and I have described then they should also be required to be muzzled or taken from the family

[IsIt1984Yet]

191. You hit it on the head with this statement, Lynne:

"...overwhelmingly it's pit bulls that you read about when there has been a traumatic dog attack..."

Yes, the media hype. That's what it is. HYPE.

[LynneSin]

226. Problem with your statement is I've seen it firsthand

TWICE

Not bitings - MAULINGS including the death of a beloved death and putting a small girl into the hospital.

Sure, someone can own a pitbull for it's lifetime and it never causes a problem - but the thing is you never know when that one pit will lose control and go nuts. I mean Anthrax kept in it's proper container can be safe to own for years but that doesn't mean I want a container of it in my home.

[Critters2]

204. A bite and a mauling death are 2 different things nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

166. Pitbulls Are Absolutely Loving Dogs And Great Pets.

Not only is the threat of a pitbull attack so unlikely and improbable, but when they do occur they can almost certainly be traced back to the fault of the owner as opposed to the dog itself.

Pitbulls are wonderful animals and can make awesome pets. They can be amazingly loveable.

[johnaries]

186. "they can almost certainly be traced back to the fault of the owner"

In the latest case everyone is screaming about, the owner had 2 Pit Bulls previously. One was already dead when police discovered it, and the other was so emaciated it had to be euthanized. But, he got 2 more Pit Bulls.

So, you have 4 Pit Bulls badly abused by the owner, and only one of them attacked anybody. It's a wonder.

[LynneSin]

189. If it was that uncommon this thread would have sunk ages ago

I know of more pit bull mauling stories than I do of all other dogs combined. We had a child in our neighborhood that was almost killed by a pit out of control.

Your pit is friendly and lovely because he is your pet and he is familiar with you. But pits are very protective of their owners - you might be safe but I surely would not feel safe around your dog.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

193. I Don't Even Own One (Never Have) So Please Don't Be So Assumptive.

Furthermore, Pitbulls are not overly protective of their owners. In fact, they are one of the most socially greeting and friendly dogs you can buy. Please educate yourself further on the facts before forming your arguments. You may find this link useful (From my thread I started): http://www.pitbulllovers.com/

[Critters2]

205. www.pitbulllovers.com

Yeah, that'll be objective

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

210. It Actually Is Quite Objective. How Bout Ya Go There With An Open Mind

and educate yourself first prior to casting an opinion rooted in assumption and ignorance.

Now, granted, I'm not saying this site is the be all end all. There are many other sites as well. But this one did have some good factual information on it.

[LynneSin]

224. I've educated myself enough

with coming home with my friend to see her one pet mutilated to death by a pitbull. And I read enough stories in our local news including the girl who lives down the street from me who was almost mauled to death.

As I've said before, I rate pitbulls right below cockroaches

[johnaries]

219. There are several reasons for that, none of thm having to do with

the breed itself. all of which have been discussed here or in other threads.
1. Many dogs involved in attacks are mistakenly identified at Pit Bulls
2. Pit Bulls are one of the most popular breeds.
3. Right now, Pit Bulls are favored by owners who want fighting or "mean" dogs who train them to be vicious.

The breeds which have been most involved in human attacks and maulings have changed over the years. At one time it was German Shephards. At another time it was Doberman Pinscers. Another time it was Rottweilers.

It's all about the popularity of the breed among abusive owners, not about the breed itself.

[LynneSin]

225. Sorry, I've been alive for 40 years and I have never seen

Rotts, Pinchers or even German Shepards cause as much harm as the pitbulls. I do know there are a few other rare breeds like the Presa Canario which have also been in the news.

I don't want pit bulls around me. I've seen enough destruction by two of them to satisfy me for a lifetime.

[johnaries]

234. I've been alive for 49 years (trumped you by 9 years), and I have.

Any time you get 2 or more dogs you start to get the pack mentality. I've seen 2 or more dogs do lots of damage to other dogs, and it didn't matter what breed. anytime 2 or more dogs attack a single dog, the single dog is not going to be in good shape. My own dog was attacked by 2 Labs once. He has faced off against single Pits before with no problem. The 2 Labs really tore him up.

The only exception I know of was a story a Basenji show dog breeder friend once told me that another breeder had told her at a show. The other breeder used to breed Basenji's along with other dogs. He decided to stop because Basenji bitches tend to become very temperamental after you take their litter away from them. Wouldn't you if someone stole all your children from you?

Anyway, this other breeder has someone wanted to buy a couple of "mean" dogs as guard dogs (a$$hole). The breeder showed him 2 Dobies. The a$$hole asked the breeder if they were mean enough. The breeder, wanting to get rid of his Basenji, decided to throw her in the pen with the Dobies as a demonstration (a$$hole breeder). A Basenji is about half the size of a Dobie. The Dobies attacked, and within a few minutes both Dobies were dead. Being smaller and more agile, the Basenji was able to get under the Dobies and use her razor sharp teeth (Basenji's don't have canine fangs) to gut the Dobies.

I used to have a Shepherd /Basenji mix, that died 2 years ago. Best dog I ever had. He was the one jumped by the 2 Black Labs.

[LynneSin]

237. Well unfortunately the pit bulls reign

I dont' disagree that any given dog could be violent, it just happens to be that the pit bulls reign in more stories. And this isn't from the headlines of FOXMSNBCNN but from my own personal experiences and also in the local newspapers here in Wilmington. Plus living in an urban area I see Pit bulls all the time and many of them are not very friendly to passerbys.

I stand by my original statement - pit bulls are dangerous breeds that should be fricking muzzled when outside of the home and ESPECIALLY when around children not in the owner's family.

[Protagoras]

168. There are some "Truths" but not THE truth

This is a complex issue that cuts many ways.

[johnaries]

180. Technically, yes. But there were so many irrational posts on this

topic based entirely on heresay and myth lately that I thought some actual "facts" might be helpful.

But the bottom line is that Breed Specific Legislation is cruel and ineffective.

[Critters2]

206. I know people in Europe who are grateful they have bsl

and say it is perfectly effective. No pitbulls, no pitbull attacks. They're quite pleased.

[johnaries]

212. What about other dog attacks? Have dog attacks decreased?

I bet if you check, you'll find that overall dog attacks and fatal dog attacks haven't decreased at all.

[enki23]

175. "Breed is not a contributing factor to fatal dog attacks"

as the exceptionally high rates of scottish terrier attack fatalities suggests.

me, i'd rather lie down with a mean housecat than with a friendly lion.

[johnaries]

185. According to the ATTS, Scottish Terriers have a temperament

rating of 63.6%, as opposed to the Pit Bull rating of 83.5% The Scottish Terrier pass/fail rating is WAY below the average of 81.2%.

So, if Breed is a factor, the Scottish Terrier is a much more vicious dog than a Pit Bull. All those Scottish Terrier maulings are being covered-up.

Or, then again, maybe breed isn't a factor after all.

[enki23]

230. you know, it doesn't really take a genius

a pit bull is much more heavily armed than the vast majority of the other dog breeds. when one *does* go bad, they have all the firepower to go bad in a bad fucking way. i don't see why this needs to be spelled out for anyone smart enough to operate a keyboard.

[OnionPatch]

243. Bingo!

(was his name-o, hee hee, sorry ;) )

Our pit, mentioned in this thread, has a huge head and jaws and massive muscles. They fairly ripple when she runs. As I said, she is not aggressive in the least (for the two years we've owned her, anyway) but IF she were to go bad she could make mincemeat out of someone.

IMO, there are lots of other dogs that seem to trend "mean" more often but their looks don't appeal to dog-fighters and so they are saved from being owned by them. (My most feared dog is the Chow. I had to check electric meters at one job I had and they were the most likely to snap at or charge you out of the blue...unpredictable.) Pitbulls are targeted and abused by the creepiest dog owners alive simply because they are powerful and look mean.

[IsIt1984Yet]

192. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!! ALL dogs are potentially dangerous.

The idea that pits are the predominantly aggressive breed who is worthy of eradication is ridiculous.

It fosters a false sense of security with OTHER equally or more dangerous DOGS (note: not BREEDS)

ALL dogs are potentially dangerous when provoked and some dogs are dangerous when not provoked. Small children should be taught how to ask permission and proper approach any dog, not just pits. I've read all of these... "I know a guy who's cousin's friend was mauled by pits..." what-the-fuck-ever. *I* know a guy who was mauled by a black lab. It was inbred and he rough-housed too damn much with it and it snapped.

Some people are fucked up and mistreat dogs and they go nuts. With any BSL, they will find another breed. Then DU will be all in arms trying to eradicate Dobermans, or Shepherds, or Rotts... seriously, THINK about it!

Just cuz:

[B3Nut]

250. What a cutie!

Lovely dawg you have there! I have yet to have a Pit Bull that isn't a comfort-loving couch potato. If I could only figure out a way to harness their gas emissions, I could almost go off the grid! :D

Todd in Beerbratistan

[LeftyMom]

198. And that fear kills

"Two pit bulls found hanged in Lynnwood

By Lynn Thompson and Brian Alexander

Lynnwood police are investigating the hanging of two pit bulls early Thursday in the backyard of a Lynnwood home.

After hearing barking and yelps, the owner found his dogs, 1-year-old Peanut and 10-month-old Wiggles, hanging by their necks on ropes over his fence. One of them was limp, and the other was struggling.

...

The owner ran inside for a knife, but when he returned to the yard, both dogs were dead. The owner said the dogs had been rescued eight months ago from a shelter; they had been scheduled to be euthanized."

...

"I put in an incredible amount of time training them, taking them to obedience classes, working with them to be sure they were calm, submissive, playful dogs and not aggressive at all," he said.

He speculated that a neighbor may have killed the dogs out of fear of the breed. He said his dogs had never had problems with people. But while walking the dogs, he said, some residents expressed concern there were pit bulls in the neighborhood.

(mroe at link) http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003157827_pitbulls28m.html

[IsIt1984Yet]

208. That's awful.

:(

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

213. Sadly, I could picture some of the DUers here committing such a crime.

[LeftyMom]

216. Me too. Fear and hate are deeply intertwined and do scary things to people

[IsIt1984Yet]

217. I thought I heard a few cheers from some in this thread when I read it.

:(

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

244. My ex sister-in-law raised 'em... she had two young kids and...

   ... the pits were her "I'm in the yard doing things that could hurt my kids" baby sitters. She'd leave the kids in the living room with the dogs or she'd have the kids in the yard with her... and the dogs.
   in either case, she'd always have a designated "play space" which the DOGS knew -- they were much smarter than the babies at that time (the kids were 6 months and about 2 when she started...)
   If one of the munchkins strayed out of the play space, the nearest dog would lock those "lethal" jaws gently in a diaper and tug the kid back into "safe" space... when they got old enough to walk around, the dogs would herd 'em back (it was rather comical watching one of those big powerful dogs gently bumping and nudging the "cubs" back where they belonged...
    In almost two years, not once did any of her pits so much as snap at either of those kids, and her munchkins did all of the "wrong things", including moving quickly (kids do this), trying to take toys away from the dogs (kids do this, too)... not a single incident.
   Not one.

[Nutmegger]

207. The MSM perpetuates attacks by PBs

thus everyone waves their arms when the word "PitBull" is mentioned.

Now it's not my type of dog but I'm not going to support laws banning that breed.

[Jamastiene]

238. I don't want to anger any pit lovers, but here's my take on the breed.

I do believe they can be raised to be human friendly. I don't believe they can be raised to not chase after small animals, especially cats, in an outdoor setting. It is part of the CANINE instinct to hunt prey and that does include smaller animals. And animals do act differently outside than they do inside in their own homes. It's just instinct. I don't like it, but I also don't think it makes them bad animals, per se. There are some, though, I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them.

I'm totally against dog fighting. The police routinely round up dog fighting rings in my area. They usually find everything from drugs to gambling to firearm violations during the process. The thing is, they do it over and over again. For every dog fighting ring they stop, another comes up in its place.

My personal experience with pit bulls (and the part that may anger some pit lovers) came when a friend of mine gave me a puppy. The mother was half pit bull and half poodle, if you can imagine. She was the sweetest dog. I never saw her show hostility toward the cat or any children or anything. I took the puppy and we named him Billy. So I guess he was 1/4 pit bull and 3/4 poodle, because his father was a registered poodle. He was also a sweet dog who was fiercely protective of my Sunday Girl (2 week old kitten that I bottle fed.)

Billy never showed aggression until he hurt his back. We took him to the vet, because it paralyzed him. We don't know what happened, because we came home to find him paralyzed under the couch. Had not idea how it happened. The vet said he had a 95% chance of recovery if he was kept still. We had to medicate him for a couple of weeks and everything would work out okay, or so they told us. Well, my aunt could get around back then. It was a Saturday morning and I was getting ready for work. My aunt went to get Billy out of his carrier to take him to use the bathroom. We had to hold him up so he could use the bathroom. Well, all of a sudden I heard this horrible throaty growl and I could hear his teeth hitting the bones in her hand.

My aunt and I both worked as dog groomers. As a dog groomer, you take bites from all kinds of dogs. It's inevitable. I've been bitten by everything from a doberman to a chow. My aunt has as well. Neither of us works in grooming any more for different reasons. My aunt said that it had to be the pit bull in Billy that caused his bite to be that severe and unrelenting. I could tell he did NOT want to be biting her, but he was hurting from his back and could NOT make his jaws let go and could NOT quit twisting and grinding his teeth. I could tell he was not in control. The vet couldn't even really handle him after that. He had to be hospitalized to keep him from hurting us or himself again. He didn't make it more than 2 days and he was dead. He had been vaccinated so it wasn't rabies or parvo that caused the paralysis. We still don't know what happened or why he bit her and couldn't let go. It was horrifying for us and him when he bit my aunt. I had to work ten times harder to get his jaws loosened off her hand than I ever have with other types of dog bites. I've been bitten by more than my share of dogs too.

Would I ever own a pit bull again? Maybe and that's a definite maybe. The only way I could see it happening would be if I could get him as a puppy and if he was mixed. Since my grooming days and my days feeding strays have made me think about purebreeding, I have decided I will never get a purebred dog again. Why? There are too many mixed breed animals put down on an hourly basis because they are not purebreds and didn't get bought for their breeding. If someone pays for an animal, in general, they are less likely to abandon it or let it roam, but the strays in this world deserve a fighting chance, imho.

So my verdict on the breed in general: NO, I do NOT think they are bad dogs. YES, I do think something in them makes it hard for them to let go when they do bite. And YES, I do think that the hunting instinct is strong in them, just like any dog and they will chase smaller animals.

Overall, there really are no bad dogs, just ignorant and mean owners. Ignorant if they don't know the breed and the history behind the breed and mean if they train them for fighting. No, I don't think pit bulls or any other dog should be allowed to roam the neighborhood. It's not good for passers-by and it's not good for the dog (hit by cars, poisonings, fights with other dogs.)

[shrike]

240. Wish I had a link to the article about dog fighting rings

A lot of pits have been bred --by these scumbags -- to fight, and maximize viciousness, aggression, etc. These dogs get out into the general population, via shelters, etc., and the trait is passed on, usually unknowingly.

BTW, you're right about the canine instinct to hunt -- we have a purebred lab who is a hunting fool. Squirrels, rabbits -- she's killed quite a few of them. (We try not to talk about that because it's upset people.) Once she killed a kitten that was apparently a stray, but it upset us so we've tried to train her to stay away from cats. Hasn't worked too well, but fortunately the adults are willing to fight back, and she's such a marshmallow she'll back off immediately.

I had a frightening experience recently, though: a sweet little boy in the neighborhood came up on his tricycle and asked to pet her. I allowed it, and he continued riding his trike for a bit. Then, all of a sudden, he rushed towards her for more petting. (He was about five.) Now, my dog is VERY gentle, but still it was a heart-stopping moment; a dog can easily feel threatened in that situation and strike back with a bite. Fortunately, Gigi (that's her name) simply looked puzzled, so I called her over and held her by the collar so he could pet her again.

[Jamastiene]

258. You are right about some people breeding them for that purpose.

And I think you handled your situation with your lab the right way, best way you could have handled it. It's the responsible thing to do. That's 99% of the solution with any animals that have a hunting instinct like that; repsonsible owners who will try to control the situation to keep anything bad from happening. I wish there were more like you who would make that effort.

[bumblebee1]

256. My niece had a pit bull

Whenever company came to her house, she'd put him in the basement. It wasn't an aggressive dog, just an overly friendly dog. He'd jump all over you. Unfortunately, one of her son's friends left the yard gate open. The dog got out and was hit and killed by a car.

[janx]

260. There are no official variables because like the human, the domestic

dog has far too many.

People mess up the domestic dog by inbreeding, overbreeding, breeding for nefarious purposes, etc.

Some people are so ignorant that they think only "pure" breeds are safe breeds, and some of these people also believe that the "pit bull" is actually a breed.

So much misinformation, and so little time! :hi: