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Israel just plain lies like the US. Hizbollah does NOT hide behind

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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:14 AM
Original message
Israel just plain lies like the US. Hizbollah does NOT hide behind
Edited on Sun Jul-30-06 07:20 AM by smacky44
its civilians. They will not risk the insecurity of beint turned in by collaborators or infiltrators. Israel merely makes the claim that Hizbollah hides among civilians to justify their murderous attacks.
Most US stations will not even show the carnage dealt by Israel so the American people do not really know how awful this latest bombing. And to do it while Condi was there show a certain amount of arrogance and insensitivity should cause the US to havea "clean break" with Israel. More and more sirens are going off in Israel and much of the time it is to give the illusion of missiles to make it seem like more attacks than there are. One of the journalists reporting alluded to this but you had to watching carefully to pick up on this comment.

The latest killing of 27 children with PRECISION GUIDED MISSILES will be a huge turning point among the Arabs as their TV is broadcasting what our TV will not but if you have any links to people there you will be able to see for yourself.

Israel never provides proof of its enemies among the civilians it bombs to hell but comes back later with some photos or videos from god know where to offer proof that is never challenged by the US or the US media. The only refutation heard about this latest shit in Lebanon came from some American journalists on the ground who saide two days ago there was no evidence of Hizbollah presense where an apartment building was leveled.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. I wonder how many civilians we shocked and awed with our
'precision guided missiles' in Iraq
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I felt exactly the same as I do now. Angry and sad.
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NicRic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. Perhaps we have been taken advantage of ?
By giving Isreal all the tools to have such a powerful milatary in the region ,this was suppose to be to defend themselves ,however instead like us they have become the aggressors ,killing many inocent Arabs ,if they the terrorist are hiding amoung the civilians then go in and weed them out ,dont throw bombs and wipe out entire neighborhoods. Iam sick of the fighting in the mideast ,sick of exspansion of at the cost of people lives who are just trying to feed their family and have some kind of life without constant sound of tanks rushing past them to go kill somemore of their fellow country men !
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partylessinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. Show the carnage to America. We are adults, we don't need to be
protected from seeing all the bodies killed by our bombs we are shipping to Israel.

Thank you for speaking up and saying what needs to be said about this slaughter in Lebanon.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. Even if they were'nt lying, that does not justify these brutal methods
to root out Hezbollah.

Even if Hezbollah IS hiding among the civilians, ALL THE MORE REASON to adopt other tactics than wholesale slaughter to minimize casaulties.
Isreal knows it. They've already blocked all exits. If they really only wanted to apprehend Hezbollah, they could do a sector by sector sweep and get them. But obviously, wholesale slaughter is the goal.

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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Trying to get the Lebanese gov't to turn on Hezbollah? Dunno
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. no, I mean having Isreal troops do a sweep on the ground.
not a good thing, but a better thing than indiscriminate wholesale bombing.

:shrug:
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LA lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. Second time for Israel
Israel got away with killing over 100 civilians in Qana in 1996; I pray they won't get away with it again.

I was up at 4 when they were announcing this bombing on TV and before the media had a chance to get their story the way Israel wanted it. They said that the building that was bombed was the central shelter for the women and children who couldn't get out of Qana. Many can't evacuate because there is no gasoline for the few cars and Israelis are bombing cars on the way out of town. Basically they trapped them there and then killed them.

I also heard that Israel admitted they were aiming at a building 30 metres away.

I am so angry I cannot see straight.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. A shelter for women and children. while they were sleeping.
Boy, That takes real courage! :cry::grr::cry:
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prole100 Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. The PNAC Memo Laid This All Out Folks - It's a Modern Coliseum
For modern beer-swilling Christian Fundamentalists.

This time the Fundies are the lions.

An eye-for-eye you know - wink, wink
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daydreamer Donating Member (503 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. An eye for a thousand eyes. That's the new motto.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. npr this morning reported that the un observer at that village
said there was no hizbollah fighters in the area around that village. it was also reported there are many more refugees in southern lebanon that can`t leave because they are to poor to pay to get out.the roads are destroyed and the idf has targeted convoys of people fleeing north.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. "zionist bitch"
I guess we know how you feel

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yes
Condi's sister from hell.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I might mention to you that when the world was watching
the people starving in Ethiopian in 1985, THERE were only a handful of countries who tried to help. Two of those were the United States and Israel

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Apples from MI cost the same as oranges from FL. n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. I might mention to you that the
Ethiopians should have remembered the phrase 'beware of Greeks bringing gifts' as they are about to be dragged into another proxy war on behalf of the said two 'helpers'.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. No Hezbolla fighters in the area. Well, there goes Isreal's excuse
that they were aiming at a building 30 meters away. That target did not have Hezbloos fighters either!
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. Where's your proof? n/t
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. You have any to the contrary?
I suspected not...
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I have made no claims requiring proof. The OP did. A big claim. With no
proof.

But because it's bashing Israel, you'll just swallow it whole without questioning, as always.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Now it you making claims without proof!
You know absolutely nothing about what I accept. I find that extremely presumptuous on your part.
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prole100 Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Please, Don't Tell Us You Are Trying To Defend These Actions
eom
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Proud to K & R onto Greatest Page. Expose the lies! STOP the lies!!!
They can't defend this, so they just LIE.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. No, I'm asking the OP to back up his claims. n/t
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prole100 Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. How About Doing Some Independent Surfing
You just might answer your own questions!
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Shouldn't the burden of proof..
rest on those who are killing innocents?

It is a bit like asking us to prove Saddam didn't have WMDs.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. Um, I'm not the OP writer, but here's some (circumstantial,
Edited on Sun Jul-30-06 09:57 AM by Ghost Dog
or anecdotal, if you like) evidence, which I came across yesterday, from a US reporter on the ground, published by Salon and also ("fair use") here:

The "hiding among civilians" myth
By Mitch Prothero, Jul. 28, 2006, Salon.com

<snip>

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

/more...


ed: mods, I hope you'll permit the extra paragraph for clarity from what is a much, much longer article.

This would appear to be backed up by the following comment/analysis:


Five myths that sanction Israel's war crimes
Jonathan Cook, Electronic Lebanon, 25 July 2006

<snip>

In 2002 Israel made the same charge: that Palestinians resisting its army's rampage through the refugee camps of the West Bank were hiding among civilians. The claim grew louder as more Palestinian civilians showed the irritating habit of gettting in the way of Israeli strikes against population centres. The complaints reached a crescendo when at least two dozen civilians were killed in Jenin as Israel razed the camp with Apache helicopters and Caterpillar bulldozers.

The implication of Egeland's cowardly statement seems to be that any Lebanese fighter, or Palestinian one, resisting Israel and its powerful military should stand in an open field, his rifle raised to the sky, waiting to see who fares worse in a shoot-out with an Apache helicopter or F-16 fighter jet. Hizbullah's reluctance to conduct the war in this manner, we are supposed to infer, is proof that they are terrorists.

Egeland and Howells need reminding that Hizbullah's fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran, whatever Horowitz claims. They belong to and are strongly supported by the Shiite community, nearly half the country's population, and many other Lebanese. They have families, friends and neighbours living alongside them in the country's south and the neighbourhoods of Beirut who believe Hizbullah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel's regular onslaughts.

Given the indigenous nature of Hizbullah's resistance, we should not be surprised at the lengths the Shiite militia is going to ensure their loved ones, and the Lebanese people more generally, are not put directly in danger by their combat.

If only the same could be said of the Israeli army and airforce. One need only look at the images of the victims of its strikes against residential neighbourhoods, car, ambulances and factories to see why most of the dead being extracted from the rubble are civilians.

/more...


--> Me, I don't really know, I'm not at all familiar with the Lebanon on the ground. I'm just trying to cut through all the spin, and I believe I've recently read Robert Fisk (no ally of Hizbollah) saying similar things to the above in an article that I don't seem to be able to access right now (reporting on his journey with an International Red Cross convoy which was attacked - I will post if in time I find, or, anyone?)...

ed again: here's the Robert Fisk article I refer to (and again I ask indulgence for the extra paragraph from a long article, for clarity):


On A Red Cross Mission Of Mercy When Israeli Air Force Came Calling

By Robert Fisk
28 July, 2006
The Independent

That's when five vast, brown, dead fingers of smoke shot into the sky in front of us, an Israeli air-dropped bomb that exploded on the road scarcely 80 metres away with the kind of "c-crack" that comic books express so accurately, followed by the scream of a jet. If we had driven just 25 seconds faster down that road, we would all be dead.

So we retreated once more to Jarjooaa and parked under the balcony of a house where two women and three children were watching us, waving and smiling.

Sylvie was silent but I could see the rage on her face. The Israelis, it seemed, had made an "error". They had misread the route - or the number - of our little convoy. "How can we work like this? How on earth can we do our work?" Sylvie asked with a mixture of anger and frustration. On all the roads yesterday, I saw only three men whom I suspect were Hizbollah - no respecters of the Geneva Conventions they - driving at high speed in a battered Volvo. They can cross the rivers of Lebanon at will - just as we did - by circling the bomb craters and crossing the rivers. So what was the point in blowing up 46 of Lebanon's road bridges?

An old man approached us carrying a silver tray of glasses and a pot of scalding tea. Generous to the end, under constant air attack, these fearful Lebanese were offering us their traditional hospitality even now, as the jets wheeled in the sky above us. They asked us in to the house they had refused to leave and I realised then that these kind Lebanese people - unarmed, unconnected to Hizbollah - were the real resistance here. The men and women who will ultimately save Lebanon.

But before we abandoned our journey and before Sylvie and her team and I set off back to their base in the far and dangerous south of Lebanon, a man carrying a bag of vegetables walked up to Beshara Hanna. "Please move your cars away from my home," he said. "You make it dangerous for us all."

And the shame of this shook me at once. The Israeli attack on the Qana ambulances - their missiles plunging through the red crosses on the roofs - had contaminated even our own vehicles. He was just one man. But for him, the Israelis had turned the Red Cross - the symbol of hope on our roofs and the sides of our vehicles - into a symbol of danger and fear.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
22. And your proof would be...?
Edited on Sun Jul-30-06 09:46 AM by WinkyDink
For example, is a Canadian credible?
"Retired Canadian Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie told Canada's CBC radio last week that the Canadian officer Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, killed by IDF fire at a UN post in Lebanon last Tuesday, had complained in e-mails that Hizbullah fighters were all over his position. "They use the UN as shields knowing that they can't be punished for it," said MacKenzie."

Then there's this one:
"Hezbollah fighters had been waiting in apartments, in basements, anywhere there was cover. On numerous recent occasions, Pilcer said, Israeli soldiers have found Hezbollah fighters firing from the second floor of a building while a family was still on the first floor, so the soldiers had to be cautious in counterattacking." http://www.thestate.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/15129283.htm

In addition:
"HAIFA, Israel -- One Hezbollah rocket slammed into a major road in this Israeli port city, spraying a car with shrapnel and causing a fatal crash. Another blew open an apartment building filled with the elderly and their Filipino caretakers." http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_Rocket_Barrage.html

Plus:
" Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime.

In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm."
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm

One more:
" Haret Hreik is full of obvious Hezbollah targets, including the organization's headquarters, its media office, and homes and offices of many of its leaders -- nestled among thousands of civilian homes."
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/21/amid_destruction_hezbollah_trumpets_defiance/


Yes, "surfing the 'net" is elucidating.





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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. LOL!
'Spraying a car with shrapnel'

'Ball bearings lodge in the body'

These are hardly weapons of mass destruction, unlike the bunker buster bombs, cluster bombs, and white phorphorous that Israel is using. Not to mention the disproportionate response. All war crimes by Israel, BTW.

Keep on defending those mass murderers all you want. They're just destroying themselves.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
25. Photos that damn Hezbollah
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5200790,00.jpg

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.

More:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
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theanarch Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. i don't claim to be a military expert...
...but the weapon in question would seem to be a double-barrelled (20MM?) anti-aircraft gun, and not a rocket launcher...indeed, the article itself says it's a "cannon"...if anyone with more knowledge can identify this piece of equipment, i, for one, would be grateful for the confusion to be cleared up. It would appear that, as AA guns are primarily defensive weapons, this photo doesn't "damn" Hezbollah for anything except, um, defending civilians from Israeli attacks.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. That was a sample picture.
There are three on the news site. Others are mentioned, by I have not seen them. However, with jets flying overhead, and AA gun will be a prime target for a missile. There is no reason to park it in a neighborhood except to hope that Israel doesn't shoot because of the houses. That is the very definition of "human shield".

And in Civilian clothing, if the soldiers were killed, they can be added to the ranks of "civilians" killed in the war. Sorry bud, but Hezbullah is not squeaky clean on this carnage. They know exactly what they are doing, and they use it to influence people's opinions quite well.
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theanarch Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. i never said Hezbollah was...
...clean (squeaky or otherwise), but a rather large point is being missed here: if Israel wasn't bombing civilian targets to begin with in an OFFENSIVE WAR OF CHOICE, Hezbollah wouldn't have to position its DEFENSIVE weapons around these civilian targets to protect them, now would they? By this logic, the British army was wrong to position its AA guns around London and other cities during the Blitz (aka, Battle of Britian) because they were using the cities Germany's AF were going to bomb anyway as "human shields". (And, in the alternative, the German army would have been wrong to place its AA guns around Dresden, and the Japanese were wrong to defend Hiroshima.) I do agree that Hezbollah is probably under-reporting its military casualties for propoganda purposes, but that doesn't absolve Israel from causing the number of civilian casualties it has.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. In your examples:
The opposing army or air force was bombing the cities to destroy them outright. In the Israeli case, they are trying to kill Hezbullah, not the people in the houses. There is no reason for Israel to bomb those houses without that AA gun being there. That gun is not there to protect the people in the houses, the people in the houses are there to protect the AA gun.

The British were trying to defend London from German bombers that bombed at will. The British were defending the British people and the British nation. Same with the German and Japanese examples.

Hezbullah is not a nation-state, and it is not trying to protect those people in the houses. Hezbullah stationed the gun there in the hope that if it is neutralized, they can claim once again that Israel is targeting civilians.


And Hezbullah, to give them credit, has a great strategy. Drive into an untouched neighborhood, fire rockets or other weapons at Israel, then drive away as fast as possible. When the response comes in a few minutes, they can jump on the news and say "look, the Israelis are killing civilians for no reason". And the best part! - If the Hezbullah militants got killed, they are in civilian clothing, so they just get added to the outrageous "civilian" death toll!


Sorry man, those people need Hezbullah protecting them about as much as I need a Heart Attack.
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theanarch Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I respectfully disagree...
...Israel's target list in Lebanon includes far more than Hezbollah and its suspected HQ's, weapons caches, etc. I don't know how much of Lebanon's infrastructure (the airport, the docks, the milk factory, highway bridges, water/sewer plants, electrical stations, banks, etc) were surrounded by Hezbollah's AA guns when they were bombed in the first days of the offensive, but my suspicion is very few, if any, were...so where's the justification for Israel's attacks? How many villages in southern Lebanon were staging grounds for Hezbollah's rockets in the first wave of terror bombings designed to turn 750,000 civilians into homeless refugees--the answer is, none. By all accounts, Hezbollah began firing its rockets AFTER the Israel's began their offensive. I find your refusal to address the issue of Israel launching a war of choice, on the flimiest of pretexts, quite telling of your bias; and am not at all surprised at your insinuation that no civilians have been killed by Israel's attacks--they're all just Hezbollah terrorists in civilian clothing...including the infants, children, women and old men, no doubt.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Excuse me?
You accuse me of saying all civilians killed were hezbullah. I used that term when talking about Hezbullah soldiers who get killed in their civilian clothing. Also, I'm not addressing the start of the war because thats not the topic. You can shove your red herring and your strawman where the sun don't shine.

Its not Bias bud, its facts. I thought we Democrats cling to reality. As for the other targets, My only guess is Israel thought they would keep rockets from coming in. BUT. Thats not the topic of this thread.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. Wow! Would that be an APARTMENT BUILDING in the background?? Nahhh!
Hezbollah doesn't hide in civilian areas.:eyes:
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. No doubt it was photoshopped
by Mossad. :sarcasm:
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progressive_realist Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. I don't claim to be an expert either...
But that weapon is certainly an anti-aircraft gun, a purely defensive weapon.

Also, the article clearly states that the photos were taken in the Christian eastern suburbs of Beirut. Unless the world went completely through the looking glass while I was asleep, this is an area Hezbollah is completely absent from. Until recently, Shiite Lebanese would get killed merely for entering these neighborhoods. I have no idea what group or faction the men in the picture represent, but they almost certainly aren't Hezbollah.

I don't have a position on the OP, but this article is deliberately misleading, worthless journalism and evidence of nothing.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Its one photo of several. n/t.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. The article showed "two" (but really one) other picture. No other 'proof'
When you go to the article you'll see a "slide show" identifying three pictures. Only one of the three pictures is actually a cropped close up of the first photo (seen in this thread), showing more details of the Beirut AA gunmen. The other is an over the shoulder view of one of the Lebanese militiamen holding his gun and looking out onto a burning city.

It's proof that there's a military presense of someone in Lebanon. There is no evidence at all that anyone has missiles in southern Lebanon. It's pointless, misleading propaganda, just like the OP here.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. The news story identified that picture as an AA gun.
The images include one of a group of men and youths preparing to fire an anti-aircraft gun metres from an apartment block with sheets hanging out on a balcony to dry.

Others show a militant with AK47 rifle guarding no-go zones after Israeli blitzes.

Another depicts the remnants of a Hezbollah Katyusha rocket in the middle of a residential block blown up in an Israeli air attack.

The Melbourne man who smuggled the shots out of Beirut and did not wish to be named said he was less than 400m from the block when it was obliterated.

"Hezbollah came in to launch their rockets, then within minutes the area was blasted by Israeli jets," he said.

"Until the Hezbollah fighters arrived, it had not been touched by the Israelis. Then it was totally devastated.


"It was carnage. Two innocent people died in that incident, but it was so lucky it was not more."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. Thanks for finding that
I think it would be great if you made that its own thread, to counter this thread.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Feel free to post it.
I can't. I'm worried I'd be labled a heretic and treated as a bush loving repug.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
48. Well, what are they supposed to do?
Stand out in a field with their rifles, waiting to be slaughtered? For God's sake, that's what war is.

But what Israel is doing is violating the Geneva conventions. WAR CRIMES.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. So you drive into a neighborhood...
Stop next to a house or apartment building (preferred since there are more shields there), and fire at the Israelis without any fear of retaliation. And Israel is just supposed to take the bombardment of rockets and the planes getting shot at without doing anything.





Yeah right.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
39. The UN press releases have said that Hezbollah
has originated fire next to their bases, and have merely left it at that. Even having mortars land in UNIFIL bases fired by Hezbollah has produced few statements. The first such incident was a big deal; when the IDF said it wasn't them, and the evidence was ambiguous to negative that it was the IDF's fault, UNIFIL stopped caring; no calls for an investigation.

I've seen articles where fighters boast of their weapons, and the reporters note the oddness of having a baby next to a munitions pile, or in which civilian refugees complain about Hezbollah shooting from in front of or between their houses.

Another report has a bunch of civilians huddling with Hezbollah fighters in a basement, since they're obviously protected. The initial report was all civilians; a later story, after the reporter left Tyre, had 11 of the dead militants. Huge explosions rock Beirut's civilian neighborhood, civilians dead; later reports were that the secondary explosions were larger than the initial explosions.

One thing to remember: Hezbollah is in control of the battlefield in the south, and of the bombed suburbs. If a reporter can put together a long videomontage showing how horrible things were and how neighborhoods were destroyed, and then feel necessary to report the next day, from a different place, that he was herded from neighborhood to neighborhood by Hezbollah, unable to go to film without Hezbollah "supervisors", and told what buildings were with no chance to actually interview people nearby without permission, or to inspect the ruins himself ... what does this tell you?

Moreover, reporters are being naive or cynical: The ethnicity of the person being interviewed is not incidental. You interview Shi'ite supporters, and you get one view; you view those that hate Hezbollah, you get another view. But only the latter, by and large, have their background "revealed", so that they can be discounted as prejudiced. The "real" view is Hezbollah's.

You're being spun clockwise like a top, while boasting how much better you are than the idiots over there who are being spun counterclockwise.

Something bad happened in Qana. What happened, sensu stricto, is obvious. Sensu lato, it's still a question, otherwise nobody would call for an investigation.
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. I haven't seen any press release. Was it hot off the Israeli press?
Edited on Sun Jul-30-06 01:17 PM by smacky44
Just like that video of a "similar" incident to try to excuse what was done in Qana?
One thing that is not being spun in either direction is the dead bodies of women and children that are being picked up for burial.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
42. Another P.O.S. thread that's been debunked...
But I'm sure it'll be K&R over and over again by people who don't want truth to get in the way of a good hate.
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