Has Israel signed up for its own destruction with the Qana atrocity?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

Jordan's King Abdullah just called his peace partner's act one of criminal aggression http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=c83a2427-5020-4c06-a7dd-3bd19bc2d216&k=13397 and world leaders are practically unanimous in their damning of the current behaviours of the Israeli Government.

The ME is going to be a Solidarity Force against them if they don't back down quickly IMHO.


http://www.knology.net/~rareandfirsts/Maguire-Eve_Destruction.mp3

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. That's a dumb thing to say or think

Of course they haven't. Besides, Israel killed a hundred people in a Qana shelter in 1996, and not a damn thing happened. Expect the same inaction behind Israeli atrocities this time.

[mom cat]

35. I think that times have changed. We will see.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

60. I hope you're right and I hope we're wrong at the same time...

I hope Israel backs away before this turns into WWIII

[liberalhistorian]

81. Unfortunately, I don't think Israel is going

to back away. Olmert is a very weak leader who doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, and all the nutjobs in the government and the IDF are taking advantage of such rudderless "leadership"; this is why I believe Israel is so out of control this time, even considering its usual actions.

[HereSince1628]

2. I wonder if the shift in regional sentiment isn't what has * shaken

so obviously during his comments. There is a real danger that reshaping the ME may not result in something as nearly friendly to Israel as what they had before this round of hostilities started.

[papau]

6. I agree - Leb is giving the finger to Condi this a.m - and she is US bound

rather than going to Lebanon.

[Ian David]

3. This is how the New Post-Modern terrorism works

Old-style terrorists used to just try to inflict sufficient casualties upon their enemies to destroy their will to fight.

New-style terrorists have turned it into a system where the main goal is to provoke disproportionate casualties upon your own people so outrageous, that public opinion upon the world stage turns against your enemy.

It's a perverted twist upon Ghandi's Passive Resistance, tailor-made for the blood-thirsty.

Why volunteer to line-up in the streets to be clubbed by police, when you can simply fire rockets by remote control at civilians and cause your enemy to kill your fellow citizens, while you yourself escape unharmed?

[acmavm]

14. Oh, I see. It's not Israel's fault that those bombs they drop are killing

so many innocent people. They HAVE NO CHOICE but to drop them on civilian areas and kill lots of people.

:sarcasm:

[Ian David]

20. Israel is not blameless, either. Their response has been abhorrent.

They have played right into the hands of the terrorists and given them exactly what they wanted-- huge civilian casualties.

Now, if someone was firing hundreds of rockets into Albany from across the Canadian border, what do you think we would do?

I know we couldn't just sit back and let the warheads fall while we "gave diplomacy a chance to work." There would need to be some kind of military response to neutralize the rockets.

I admit I do not know what Israel could possibly do to protect their own citizens without inflicting huge casualties on civilian populations. But what I do know is that the way they are going about things are both self-destructive and morally wrong.

[Kingshakabobo]

71. Yep. I agree. Sounds like the Al Queda VS. Bush plan...

Right-wingers are easy to play like that.

[liberalhistorian]

82. How are you and the other

Israel-never-does-any-wrong-ever people managing to keep your necks on your heads these days with all that spinning? :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Ian David]

92. You're not a very good historian, are you? n/t

[blurp]

87. +5 Insightful, IanDB1

[Lilith Velkor]

97. It's the New, Post-Modern way to blame the victim

A perverted twist on the old, "Look what you made me do!" for the bloodthisty. Fascinating.

[papau]

4. Even the video of the Hez rockets being fired from behind a 3 story

building is not going to change opinions - nor is the fact these folks at Qana were poor with no transport and may well have been put in that building by Hez so as to have dead bodies for PR purposes.

The world is tired - and the terrorists have acquired enough child/civilian death photos that they have won world opinion.

I guess congratulations are in order and should be sent to the Hez/Syrian/Iranian terrorists.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

11. it's the same old song

The abuser saying the blood and bruises he inflicted on his wife are such good PR for her. It's utterly sickening.

[Taxloss]

19. The "flame by proxy", a classic.

Don't flame yourself, simply agree with another flame, and elaborate it. Helps you get your kicks in without the risk of being answered back, and thus bruising your delicate feelings. Some miht call it extremely cowardly, but I think it's ingenious.

[Mandate My Ass]

22. You want a piece of me?

Go for it. :-)

[Taxloss]

24. Well done!

You actually responded directly. Now, try attacking the poster's argument, not the poster, and you will be well on your way to having an actual debate with him/her.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

27. That's good of you.

It's nice we can be civil about this.

[malaise]

46. Bingo

The abusers beats his wife because she provoked him.

[cali]

17. You know, I don't agree with anything the

poster you are addressing, said, but your personal attack is beyond the pale. Try a little self-control.

[Malikshah]

26. Interesting. Disagreeing with an inhumane post is natural

but actually getting riled up at the beyond the pale vileness of the post...

Hows about a little self-control with the bigoted poster? Oh. Sorry, disagreeing should be good enough.

Folks-- these sorts of blame the victim posts need to be called out.

It's like ignoring Ann Coulter...or a particularly virulent strain of STD (one in the same actually) If not treated, they don't go away. Hell, it's like terrorism-- a symptom that needs to be properly diagnosed to be treated so it doesnt' come back... Ignoring of these, misdiagnosing them, shaking one's head in disapproval, isn't sufficient.

[cali]

31. I don't ignore

posts I strongly disagree with. I try to respond to them without attacking the poster on a personal level. I do ignore Ann Coulter. I think she's bloody boring and utterly inconsequential.

[liberalhistorian]

84. I will vouch for cali in this respect,

I have never seen her attack or disrespect another poster no matter how strongly she may disagree; she always addresses the actual post itself, not the poster. Something we should all consider trying to do a little bit more.

[cali]

96. Thanks for that

gracious defense. I appreciate it.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

44. Ah. More's the pity that this is an attempt at discourse.

I do hope many ready this particular response to my post. It might wake folks up.

[Jim Sagle]

45. Yes, it's an attempt at discourse.

Judging by your condescending reply, it failed.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalhistorian]

86. Even if there are no "Hez" in the area

and the Israelis may just be using that as an excuse, as they appear to be doing in several other cases?

[Lurking Dem]

37. "You Israeli liars are beyond the pale."

Interesting choice of phrase.

[AlienGirl]

59. Isn't it just...I have seen that phrase with increasing frequency.

[Lurking Dem]

61. I have to wonder if it is on purpose.

[AlienGirl]

66. I believe it to be a non-conscious phenomenon

An example of ideas becoming rooted in the cultural consciousness, and expressed by people who don't know why, but feel that they just seem to "fit" with a particular other set of ideas.

Tucker

[Lurking Dem]

70. Maybe.

I'm a little too raw at the moment, I guess.

[AlienGirl]

72. I am raw as well (I live in Seattle)...the unconscious stuff chills me

I am more disturbed by the unconscious stuff than the overt, because the people who have picked up certain things subconsciously don't even know they're doing it, and are prone to being manipulated, or just to standing by while worse things go on. The overt stuff clearly labels its espouser's position, while subconscious stuff leaves room for doubt and a misplaced sense of security.

Tucker

[Lurking Dem]

91. Wow.

How long, exactly, have you been living inside my head?? I have uttered almost word for word that very thought.

I live in the South and think that probably 99% of the people here don't know what "beyond the Pale" refers to. The subconscious (or unconscious) stuff is both scarey and sad.

[TahitiNut]

28. Is this the "Fiction Forum"???

I'm sure seeing a lot of fact-free, fiction-infested posts here these days. :shrug:

[papau]

42. Meet the Press had the comments paraphased in the post - guess they were

evil and I didn't catch that "fact"

[Karmakaze]

39. What video? Link please!

I await with bated breath...

[papau]

43. It is a video of as 3 story buildinf behind which ?Hez is firing rockets -

it was mentioned on Meet the Press today -

It has not been released to public but will be released today as I understand it

As I said in the post - it will not change minds.

[Karmakaze]

49. LOL!

And I have a video of the IDF bayonetting babies. I swear I will release it later today!

[TahitiNut]

56. Don't forget the "stealing incubators" story.

They're eeevil! :puke:

[Phx_Dem]

62. video of rocket launches

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html

[Karmakaze]

78. Yes, Ive seen the video...

and for all you can tell in the video those rockets could be coming from miles away from the building. Why did the IDF not get footage of the actual launch site? Why a shot from some distance away and low altitude so you couldnt see the launcher or its relation to the town, only the rockets rising up in the distance?

The most important thing to note, the rockets are clearly NOT coming from the CIVILLIAN building, so why bomb the building?

[papau]

80. Thanks for posting video of the Hez terrorists using civ. build'g launches

Sometimes DU amazes me.

As I posted before, I don't think folks care that it seems Hez is setting up poor Shia to be killed so as to use the photo's of the dead kids for PR. As can be seen on DU, any explanation is tossed and condemned as the killers blaming the victim

Any suggestion that there is a moral difference between missiles fired at Israel that are meant to kill kids and an organization that celebrates the killing of civilians and kids, compared to Israel dropping bombs that attempt to not kill civilians and where any civilian death is morned as a tragedy and a mistake, is rejected.

Israel - at least on the left - and it seems worldwide - is condemned.

The terrorists have won the hearts and minds - who would have thought that post 911 that it was possible.

In any case, I doubt that any Democrat that adopts the condemn Israel, reward terror and terrorists attitude will get elected. But on the other hand any Democrat that doesn't adopt that attitude will have many of the left rejecting them, as their sincere, honest, and compassionate caring for victims will demand a candidate that speaks to their feelings.

Few will factor in that this means the effect will be the same as if many on the left have more important things to do than to defeat the GOP.

I know Rove is not running the left (so that is not the reason he believes the GOP will be in power for generations to come), but I would be hard pressed to deny that idea.

The video
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html is like the video - and indeed the signed confession by the driver - of a UN ambulance being used to transport missiles for the terrorists, and indeed like the video of Hez wearing UN uniformed driving UN trucks so as to kill Israelis by pretending to be UN -

folks just don't care - the truth of Palestinian misery - and it is a truth - overwhelms everything else.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

53. Agree with the first two sentences

But not the third.

My own opinion is that if Israel is serious about rooting out Hezbollah, they need to grow a pair, send agents into Lebanon, and quietly liquidate those who are known to be Hezbollah. The Israelis will spend a lot of time, people, and money on it, but that's got to be preferable to searching for moral justifications for killing children.

If I find vermin in my pantry, I won't destroy my food to kill the vermin. If I can't remove the food to kill the vermin, I'll find another way. (just a metaphor - Hez is not "vermin")

The Israelis are very good at claiming scientific and cultural breakthroughs, so I don't see why they can't be a little less hamfisted when they attempt to secure themselves.

[AlienGirl]

63. If Israel had done that, there would be outrage about assassinations

If Israel does this, there will be outrage from many corners over violations of national sovereignty and assassinations on foreign soil. Israel is in a lose-lose position with regard to world opinion, IMO, there is no move they can make.

Tucker

[Junkdrawer]

94. Juan Cole: The Israelis had bombed Qana 80 times

...

One hope the Israeli hawks appear to entertain is that they can permanently depopulate strips Lebanon south of the Litani river. Since most Shiites vote Hizbullah and offer political support and cover to it, fewer people means fewer assets for the party-militia. This project would require the total destruction of large numbers of villages and the permanent displacement of their inhabitants north to Beirut.

That is why the massacre at Qana occurred. The Israelis had bombed Qana 80 times. They were destroying all of its buildings. Therefore, of course, they destroyed the building where dozens of children and families were hiding. This tactic is both collective punishment and ethnic cleansing all at once. It is not only a matter, as the Israelis claim, of hitting Hizbullah rocket launchers. They are destroying all of the buildings.

...

http://www.juancole.com/

[liberaliraqvet26]

They fell right into the trap...

and have lost politcally.

[BillZBubb]

10. What "trap" is that??? Murdering civilians???

They'be been doing that for a long time. Israel is a terrorist state.

[liberaliraqvet26]

5. They fell right into the trap...

and have lost politcally.

[chimpymustgo]

8. It wasn't a trap. It was the usual MO. Kill and destroy Arab people and

property. Israel has been pretty consistent. Except this time, it's so far beyond the pale that NO ONE can defend them.

[malaise]

23. You are correct -Qana Version 2

[The Deacon]

9. An Eye For An Eye, Making The Whole World Blind

[BillZBubb]

12. More like 100 eyes for an eye.

Israel is a terrorist state.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Bush got away with Shock and Awe so the Israelis have that going for them

It appears Shock and Awe has become a normal thing to do for "civilized" countries to do these days.

Don

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

77. That thought has occured to me as well.

And it sucks. Too many dead.

[malaise]

15. On the contrary while France

has introduced a Resolution for an immediate cease fire, Olmert has called for 10 -14 days to continue slaughtering Lebanese citizens. Even Britain (UK Ambassador on UN Web TV) now wants a cease fire.
If the US vetoes this one, al hell will break lose.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. I agree. There are a lot of eggs to be walked upon in this situation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. No, NO! The Lebanese will be flinging flowers at the tanks.

Just like the Iraqis have been inundating "our troops" with flowers and outbursts of hand-kissing of gratitude for "liberating" them.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

18. "You Arrogant Ass, Now You've Killed Us" ..That line from "The Hunt

..For Red October" keeps going through my head, this morning..

This is insane.

[Ian David]

21. That's funny. I've been hearing that line in my head since 2001. n/t

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

29. "I'm Connected, I work for Dick, Dick Jones!"(Cheney)-Robocop

That's the one I hear over and over...

[cool user name]

85. Very appropriate line from a great movie. n/t

[donsu]

30. I asked this question the other day - is Israel suicidal?

nt

[BillZBubb]

32. What goes around, comes around.

Karma is not going to be good for Israel. They have become a pariah nation and a terrorist state. The cracks in Arab unity have now been removed.

The US won't get out of this unscathed either. Our support of the murders will come back to haunt us. When a future leader asks "Why do they hate us?", maybe a few will remember this low point in American morality.

[cali]

38. You clearly know

nothing about Karma. It's not a doctrine of punishment.

[bvar22]

64. Substitute "Blowback" for "Karma",

*

[pelsar]

34. PERFECT SETUP.....

Hizballa keeps shooting missles at israeli cities at over 100 a day....from within lebanese cities

israel has two choices:
one is do nothing and let israeli citizens be terrorized and killed (which i believe is the preference here)

two, attack the launchers which will no doubt result in civilians being killed (as per the latest)
___________

perfect setup for hizballa, they cant lose. if israel stops targeting them, the can launch a little more relaxed even have a party while they get their missles readly to go.

or they get lebanese killed and israel is condemmed for massacre...and the people all over the world get pissed at israel for killing civilians.

whats incredible about it, is that hamas/PLO/Hizballa keep on setting it up, leaving israel ( who prefers to protect its citiizens) with little choice.....and the UN, etc dont see it.

my conclusion...people (as in the above posts) must think the members of hizballas are some kind of lesser human being because they launch from cities and dont seem to understand that it will cause civilians to be killed (ooops, i forget, thats who they're trying to kill and get killed)

[chimpymustgo]

36. THAT pretzel must be PAINFUL! How about the simple fact: Israel is

killing civilians and destroying infrastructure with ruthless abandon. Period.

[pelsar]

47. whats the hizballa doing?

targeting israeli cities?..how would you describe that?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

48. get updated....

perhaps hizballa shouldnt have been attacking israel for the last 6 years?...oh? you didnt know...perhaps because israel was patient and was hoping someone else would stop them.....but then some prefer israelis to keep on getting killed, even after they pull back to the UN sanctioned border....its just that israelis dont like getting killed.

[cali]

50. Seeing as pelsar

is an Israeli, he's probably not nearly as clueless as you'd like to think. I often disagree with him, but I respect his pov, and he is not clueless.

[pelsar]

55. the "pretzel"

actually i thought the "pretzel' idea was a bit extreme in its simplicity...but i was getting pissed at all the stuiped threads.... that keep on coming

[Phx_Dem]

65. talk about clueless

systematic destruction of infrastructure?
Civilian casualties not important to the Israelis?

Got any proof to support your statements?

[0rganism]

79. but a false dichotomy

Israel's choices are not limited to sitting back and taking the rocket attacks or responding with disproportionate force against a civilian population. Israel's response has been getting increasingly two-dimensional and militant over the years. How about infiltration and demolition, for a change of pace? What's the Mossad been doing for the last 20 years, anyway? It's about time they turned the tables on terrorist organizations in a way that damages the organizations structurally and financially without taking out huge swaths of civilian infrastructure in the process.

"It's not that easy to do," you say. Well, at least it would be DOing something other than turning the world against the IDF and reinforcing negative perceptions of Israel in general.

[blurp]

89. Yeah, but how much press did those 100 missiles per day get?

Had every missile launched at Israel been covered in the press, then the rest of the world would have understood Israel's frustration.

Israel is seen as the bad-guy because it's impossible to empathize with them without knowing what it means to live under constant rocket attack and in mortal fear.

It just isn't news in the West, I guess.

[Igel]

52. So many people have pointed to reasons

to justify destroying Israel that it's gotten old hat.

Most of the ME is always a "solidarity force" against Israel. Sad, but true. Never underestimate the power of populism and xenophobia. It has as long a history there as it does elsewhere, without any really respected people that decry populism and xenophobia.

[lonestarnot]

54. No. They are demonstrating what a terribly unsuccessful tactic it is to

use innocent human sheilds as attack protection.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

58. They are demonstrating they have no concern for the innocents

and after seeing the films from Qana, I can only hope that the rest of the world joins together to put an end to those who would do this.

The administration of Israel as well as the Neocons in Washington. They are both souless scum.

[barb162]

103. Oh please, innocents are getting killed on BOTH sides

[bvar22]

67. Do you honestly believe that ANYONE

who died in that building was remotely connected with the rocket launches?
You DO know they are MOBILE.
Israel knows that too.

[Spinoza]

68. Too bad there aren't more dead

Israelis to even things up.
Suffering is huge on both sides.
http://fishki.net/comment.php?id=12238

But with Hezbollah deliberately storing and firing off missiles within heavily populated civilian areas, Israel has no way to fight back and win without inflicting heavy civilian casualties. The terrible death and destruction is not Israel's moral responsibility but Hezbollah's. The blood is on their hands

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

69. There weren't any Hezbollah rockets flying into Israel until

the IDF went in guns blazing after the kidnapping of the two soldiers.

They were the ones who stepped it up. This ain't Entebbe.

[Spinoza]

88. Say what?

They went in 'guns blazing' only after repeated acts of war over a 6 year period. Israel LEFT Lebanon. What else can they do to satisfy Hexbollah, and stop the attacks, outside of leaving Tel-Aviv?

"Hezbollah Terrorist Attacks Since May 2000*

*Israel's unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon

Compiled by Mitchell Bard

(July 24, 2006)



27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers andand two civilians were injured.

29 Jun 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hezbollah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

24 Apr 2005 - Several explosive devices exploded near the Lebanese-Israeli border, in the Mount Dov area. Officials believe the devices were planted by Hezbollah, but this was not confirmed. No injuries were reported in the explosions.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli-Arabs from the village of Rajar near the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives and held in captivity for four days. The men, identified as Muki Ben-Jamal and Nuef Maharj Ben-Ali, said they were interrogated by their captors who wanted information on Israel. They were later released. Israeli officials did not believe that any security information had been compromised.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 Jul 2004 - Hezbollah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari't. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hezbollah fired at an IDF force south of the =46atma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hezbollah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hezbollah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hezbollah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

5 May 2003 - A cycle of armed exchanges across the Blue Line began. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over the country. Subsequently, Hezbollah fired several anti-aircraft rounds with shrapnel landing inside Israel.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.

6 Jan 2003 - Hezbollah fired anti aircraft shells in the vicinity of Birait in the western sector of the Lebanese border. No one was hurt and no damage was caused.

29 Aug 2002 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Ofer Misali was killed, and two other soldiers were lightly wounded.

12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov.

7 Aug 2001 - Two houses belonging to senior members of the former Israeli-allied South Lebanon Army militia were blown up using explosive devices. One of the houses belonged to Robin Abboud; the other to Samir Raslan. Hezbollah is suspected.

28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

14 Apr 2001 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Elad Litvak was killed.

1 Apr 2001 - A 42 year-old Israeli woman was stabbed to death in Haifa. Her murder was the initiation rite of a terrorist cell, whose members were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder, originally thought to be criminally motivated, were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of one of the terrorists into the organization.

16 Feb 2001- Fire at an IDF convoy on Mt. Dov. IDF soldier Elad Shneor was killed, and three other soldiers were wounded.

26 Nov 2000 - A charge was detonated near an IDF convoy. IDF soldier Khalil Taher was killed and two other soldiers were wounded.

7 Oct 2000 - Kidnapping: Three IDF soldiers: Adi Avitan, Omer Soued and Binyamin Avraham were kidnapped by the Hezbollah from the Mt. Dov sector."

[blurp]

90. Sigh. You're another victim of the press and poor reporting.

I guess because all those rocket attacks weren't on the nightly news they didn't happen.

[OneBlueSky]

73. the REALLY disturbing thing about this whole horror show is . . .

that Israel HAS TO KNOW that their actions, like the Qana massacre, do absolutely nothing to help insure their nation's security . . . NOTHING . . . in fact, it very likely jeopardizes that security by turning ever more people and nations against them . . .

which begs the question "Why?" . . . if there's no legitimate reason for targeting civilians in Lebanon, why is Israel doing it? . . .

revenge? . . .

hatred? . . .

seeing Lebanese as less than human, with no value? . . .

why? . . .

[thethinker]

76. What puzzles me

is why anyone would try to defend Israel. We have this "Israel Can Do No Wrong" crowd attacking every one that posts anything about this situation.

If a person truly loves Israel how could they encourage this suicidal path it is on? It is like telling your kids to play in the street and spouse to drive drunk.

When I see my country making mistakes I try to speak out against those mistakes. That is because I love my country.

I know the PNAC plan sounds very promising to certain people. Knock out Iraq and Iran (with the American taxpayer footing the bill) and Syria, also, for good measure. Sounds nice on paper to some people. Then Israel would have no one that could stop them in the ME. And the American oil companies can have all the oil they can steal for their trouble. We have all seen how well the PNAC plans have worked so far.

Well, something tells me that other countries in the world might not sat back and let America and Israel get control of the oil in the middle east. They are probably making plans right now to see what they can do about it. America's plans for the ME is very transparent.

So if the rest of the world gets mad about the grab for oil, they will figure out what to do about it. Just like when the world watched Germany and knew they had to do something to stop them. There are other countries that know how to play chess. We aren't even good at checkers.

One good size bomb would wipe Israel off the face of the earth. They are in a very bad location to be starting World War III. We might get bombs over here, but we would survive.

The people that start wars seldom think about how they are going to end.

[countryjake]

74. No. They've set-back the cause of eliminating Anti-Semitism a hundred yrs!

Israel's actions are fully supported by the current invaders of another sovereign nation...is anyone making any move to stop any similar atrocities going down in Iraq? I'm sure Israel feels confident that their action against the Lebanese people will garner no retaliation from their ally, the Superpower of the World, so what's to worry? Who could destroy them?

Doesn't matter to them that hatred of Jewish people the world over increased a thousand-fold with the destruction of Qana last night. Israel is sitting secure with the knowledge that they can kill innocent civilians, Arabs of any stripe, even U.S. military if need be, and American leaders will forever defend and excuse their actions, as they have for decades. With U.S. Imperialism on your side, one can feel confident in such moxie.

It's Jewish people who will feel the repercussions of this state-sponsored, American-backed war crime...not Israel.

[k_jerome]

75. so anti-semitism is Israels own fault? nt

[jonnyblitz]

93. blowback is a bitch. nt

[Lurking Dem]

95. Whoa.

You're actually serious.

[k_jerome]

98. yes he is. nt.

[Lurking Dem]

99. Guess anyone can be a complete racist

against any group they wish with logic like that.

[k_jerome]

100. if you play word games, you can say whatever you want. nt

[barb162]

105. It seems so; shades of KKK

[Behind the Aegis]

101. tells me what i need to know! n/t

[barb162]

104. When Hezbollah gets blown back, it will be a bitch? n/t

[0rganism]

83. Not really, but they've made it harder for diplomacy to resolve anything

Israel's response has been a deal-killer for the "peace process", such as it was, but that's not automatically a death sentence for the state. It just sets them back about 40 years, as far as their standing with the other ME countries goes. Won't be the first time they've had hostile relations with the neighbors, probably won't be the last. :shrug:

Basically, take everything that Begin, Sadat, and Carter tried to do at Camp David, and drop it in the sewer. That part is over and done with, it's gone.

[barb162]

102. Ridiculous thesis and really stretching

Too many ME governments are against hez. The same world leaders who condemn Israel have also condemned hez for its criminal aggression

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

106. Requested this thread disappear.

The discussion has turned poor.

[Superman Returns]

107. reality check

Kerry, Edwards, Lamont, Finegold, Reid, and Dean would not associtate with half of these comments. Some of you people are just plain gullible. Back during the Lebanon civil war, various factions would display the dead corpses of rivals they killed themselves and then blame the Druze or some other group for doing it. Everything is a PR stunt in that region.

[pinto]

108. Locking.

We agree with the request from the Original Poster to close this thread out. It's gone sideways.