Request to Israel supporters. Replace the word "Israel" with "Lebanon"

[Bucky]

Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself.

Lebanon has a right to exist and a right to defend itself.


Israel has the right to attack in countries that host/sponsor organizations that kill its citizens. That incluces Hezbollah.

Lebanon has the right to attack countries that host/sponsor organizations that kill its citizens. That incluces the Israeli Defense forces.


Israel should not tolerate the presense of missiles just across their borders.

Lebanon should not tolerate the presense of missiles just across their borders.


Lebanon should have wiped out Hezbollah when they had military control over that area.

Israel should have wiped out Hezbollah when they had military control over that area.

[breakaleg]

1. Well said. read on

The rights that Israel claims for itself should be equally shared by all countries.

I'd bet that if Israel attacked Italy, or Greece, they would defend themselves as well. Why is it that Lebanon is regarded as not having this right?

[Bucky]

5. My larger point is that at some point, making peace means stop fighting

Israel can and should defend itself. But when it shrugs off high civilian casualties, it invites the world's scorn. A huge contributor to this problem is Iran, who is mostly getting off the hook for all their support for Hezbollah in the first place. It's a lose-lose situation here. The right answer is the only answer--force all the parties to the table and make them cut deals. That's a long long impatient process requiring subtlety, hypocricy, and forgiving unforgiveable transgressions from the past. But any other path will only lead to increasing violence.

[wryter2000]

6. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[patrice]

2. Very good point!

Also - Reverse the roles US:Iraq, what would their responses be?

Or Bush:Kerry during the election?

Or Straight:Gay?

Or Corporations:Labor?

Any of it - If the shoe was on the other foot, all of their crap about what is "Right" would change BIG time.

[Metta]

3. Lots of people plainly fail to see these antagonists as mirrors

of each other. I wonder if a solution exists by looking at a WWI era map of the area.

[Bucky]

7. Heh. You want the old Ottoman Empire put in charge of the MidEast?

There's a germ in the idiotic "right to exist" debate that the Middle Easterners don't need governments so much as they need babysitters. Depose all their governments simultaneously and let Halliburton run the whole show. Oh, wait, did I say Halliburton? Oops. I meant to say the UN.

The reality is that in the long run they're all going to have to live with each other. That in part mean defanging evil bastards like Hamas and Hezbollah. But how you try to get rid of them will entirely determine how effectively you'll get rid of them. And Israel, frankly, is going about it the wrong way.

[Metta]

31. Not quite the Ottomans, just pre-British. And, yeah, violence never

made me sit up in appreciaton for the other's cause.

[Solly Mack]

4. Applying what one believes across the board to include all others

has proven to be a hard task for far too many.
...for the entrenched on both sides

It's been sad to witness.

What will be even sadder to witness is that when this all ends - however it ends - people will once again talk about how stubborn and entrenched right wingers are and how they close their minds to other schools of thought and other perspectives. How they just refuse to listen and how they just let hate get in the way of reasoning.

Nothing like a common enemy to unite people. (she says with great irony)

[twiterpatted]

8. How about Hezbollah, can we make those Israel supports do

that to, or are some on this board willing to recognize the distinction?

[Bucky]

11. Hezbollah is a terror organization sponsored by Iran. They have no rights

If my dog poops in your yard, are you gonna negotiate with me or my dog? Me of course. If I refuse to talk, you have the right to stop my dog. But the force you use must be proportional to the damage my dog is doing or you'll be guilty of escalating the problem and making an amicable solution possible.

PS, that's a metaphor

[Mandate My Ass]

9. Egg zact lee

Israel created Hezbollah. They could not defeat Hezbollah. Now an entire populace without a fraction of Israel's resources is being collectively punished for the existence of an entity Israel created by its own previous aggression. And this makes sense how? :shrug:

[twiterpatted]

16. You know your right, if those damn Jews would have just stayed

out of the region, none of this would have happened, right?

[Bucky]

21. Hold that train, friend. Criticizing Israel is not always antisemitism

People here in DU mostly, overwhelmingly, are offended by Israel ramping up the violence. Israelis think this crisis started when that soldier was kidnapped by Hamas. Arabs think it started when Israeli forces killed an innocent Palestinian family on the beach in Gaza. The history of the conflict is one of retaliation piled on top of retaliation going back far too far count accurately.

There is going to be a perfect accountability for no parties in this fight. Israel isn't going to get pushed back and the Arabs are never going to run out of martyrs to avenge. The obvious solution is to ramp down the violence and build peace gradually--yes, even to the point of not retaliating against small-count killings by the other side's extremists. Any other solution leads to increased bloodshed. It's pathetic, it's tragic, but that's the reality we're left with after all the bloodshed.

To equate criticizing Israel with antisemitism is slimy, cowardly, and a little bit fascistic.

[Mandate My Ass]

25. typical response by this poster

no facts, just rhetoric and fallacious arguments.

[Bucky]

36. There were no facts in dispute. You insult well, but what's your point?

You write: "typical response by this poster. no facts, just rhetoric and fallacious arguments."

Since this is a discussion board, I assume rhetoric is allowed. You accuse me of fallacious arguments, but don't say what those arguments are or how they are fallacious. I invite you to do so instead of stooping to ad hominem attacks.

Keep in mind that I was responding to post that said in its entirety "You know your right, if those damn Jews would have just stayed out of the region, none of this would have happened, right?"

What sort of facts could deal with that sarcasm? It's an ugly attempt to box anyone who thinks Israel is acting recklessly into an antisemitic corner. I cried foul at that and said exactly how I think it's unfair and counterproductive. If you thnk I'm wrong, tell me how. Don't just insult me, deal with my arguments.

[twiterpatted]

28. You hold the train friend. I posted in response to a fellow DUer

blaming the victim by accusing Israel of creating Hezbollah, therefor they are responsible for Hezbollah. My post in response shows how ridicules that line of thought is.

and besides, your not the boss of me.

[Mandate My Ass]

29. they did create them and they are responsible

oh, and I think you meant to call my line of thought "ridiculous" which is an adjective and not "ridicules" which is a verb. ;-)

[twiterpatted]

32. I refuse to respond to any post that accurately corrects my spelling

in a previous post.

Did America create the Terrorist that blew up the world trade centers and are the Americans responsible for them?

DID THE JEW CREATE THE NAZI?

[sandnsea]

10. Minutemen have a right to defend the Mexican border

Yes or No.

[Bucky]

13. Good question. The diff is that IDF is an army. MinuteMen are vigilantes.

The US government has the right, the obligation, to defend our borders. The same applies to Lebanon and Israel. But they also have an obligation to do so in a way that doesn't ramp up the violence and to disregard the safety of innocent civilians on the other side of that border. Somethink like 600 civilians have been "collateralized" north of the border in this crisis. I'd call that mighty sloppy work on the part of Israel.

[sandnsea]

24. We should control the MInutemen

And Lebanon should control Hezbollah. If we don't control the Minutemen and they fuck with Mexico, and some group from Mexico responds in kind, eventually the military will engage and that won't be pretty. I agree that Israel has gone too far in many instances in Lebanon, but they do have a right to take action if nobody else will and that's because they are a country with a military - not a random vigilante group.

[stray cat]

12. Lebanon should have wiped out Hezbollah

right, just like it was told by the UN to do by ie disarming Hezbollah. Just like the UN troops stationed in southern lebanon were suppose to keep Hezbollah disarmed.

Both sides are injuring civilians but I do wonder if the power differential were reversed if Hezbollah would try to avoid civilians casulties or simply kill all Israelis like it has always promised to do.

[Mandate My Ass]

17. I guess we'll never know

since Israel's casualty count is consistently 10x higher than Hezbollah's.

[Bucky]

18. Lebanon could barely get Syria out w/world-wide support

You have a valid point, but it's long on theory and short on practical application. Lebanon's responsible for its own borders, but the government there is very weak and Israel's actions right now are going to make it harder for the government of Lebanon to push out the Hezbollah aggitators. I fear that Hezbollah is gonna snap back from this short term defeat even more popular among the disaffected Arab street. The way to get rid of Hezbollah is to cut a deal with Iran, not killing Lebanese civilians, whose survivors will now go on to idolize Hezbollah as the enemy of their enemy.

[rockymountaindem]

14. That's a good idea

I mean, if this were just Israel and Lebanon fighting each other things would be a lot easier to understand and this all would have been over PDQ.

[Joe Fields]

15. Can't argue with that logic.

If you come into my house and punch my wife in the face, I'm sure as hell not going to blow you kisses and send you love letters.

[OwnedByFerrets]

19. But will you go to his house and kill him, his wife and his 4

children, one of which is just a day old? :eyes:

[FILAM23]

20. For punching my wife in the face,

no. But for shooting missles into the neighborhood, killing my wife and kids
hell yes

[OwnedByFerrets]

22. And the hate rolls on n/t

[Bucky]

23. So you would support an attack on Israel by Lebanon, then, right? Right?

Since Israel has killed (collaterally) innocent Lebanese children, I assume--given your logic--that you now think Lebanon should attack Israeli air force bases and not give a damn about how many civilians they kill in the process. Just going by your logic, that is.

Can I hear an amen?

[rockymountaindem]

26. Sure

But don't expect Lebanon to win that fight, and don't expect Israel to respond gently. War is war after all. The Germans didn't care how many Londoners died in the Blitz, and the British didn't care how many Germans died when they tried to wipe Hamburg off the face of the earth.

[sandnsea]

27. Israel has given Lebanon that right

Between Qana and the oil spill and the bombing of the exit to Syria, if Lebanon had the capacity to launch an attack against Israel, I'd say they have the right. I would hope they didn't do it, but Israel's attack has been so vicious that a defense against it wouldn't be unreasonable. I hope an agreement to remove the rockets from southern Lebanon is agreed to soon.

[Joe Fields]

34. I'd carpet bomb his ass. Satisfied?

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Only ONE MAJOR problem.

Hezbollah and Hamas have sworn to never stop killing until all Jews are run into the sea. Why is that always ignored? THAT is why Israel MUST stop these people. They want ALL JEWS DEAD. Until Hamas and Hezbollah recognize Israel as a sovereign state, renounce their death wishes on Jews...this will never end. Hamas and Hezbollah REFUSE to recognize Israel as a sovereign state. SO, who's at fault here? The people making the threat or the people trying to protect themselves from the threat?

[liberaliraqvet26]

33. well at this rate they will have "stop" the whole middle east....

now that hezbollah has widespread support on the arab street.

AIPAC should've opened offices all over the world before starting this campaign.

[Bucky]

35. Re: "So, who's at fault here?" . *sigh* There's not just 1 party at fault.

This is a cycle of violence. Israel has legitimate complaints against Hamas and Hezbollah. And certainly Hamas and Hezbollah practice extremist rhetoric. But even extremists can be forced and coerced to the negotation table.

Treating them like one entity is politically dumb. You can appeal to Hamas's self interest. Things were, in fact, moving in that direction before the latest cycle of violence started up. Hezbollah are straight up terrorists and need to be treated as such. Treat them as one party and guess who wins HINT: (the extremists).

But if Israel played smart and knew how to divide and conquer (Begin's strategy with Egypt) then they could make gradual advances. Why single out Israel for my criticism? Well, first off, I'm not. But second off Israel has the upper hand here. They can set the tone; they can cut the deals. When you have the power, the ball is in your count.

Also, of course, Israel has always enjoyed US support because they share our values. You can reason with a democracy. That's one reason why Israel has supported all of Bush's democracy-pushing in the MidEast, supposedly. I treat this problem as a complex knot that has to be unraveled one strand at a time. People taking the harsh pro-Hamas and pro-Israel positions keep trying to dumb down the debate into some sort of two-dimensional Transformers-Autobots battle of good vs evil. "It's all your fault. No, it's all your fault" is not a solution to violence.

Both sides are affected, both sides suffer, both sides are at fault.