Don't Be An MSM Parrot Head. Make Up Your Own Mind About Pitbulls.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

There is so much alarmist sensationalism going on right now about the risk that owning Pitbulls carry. So much of the comments I see about them show a huge ignorance to the facts of the American Pitbull Terrier. I know several DU'ers have posted very informative facts on them lately and I thank them for their education.

One of the general things I love about DU is our capability to learn for ourselves and not be parrot heads repeating sensationalist media talking points out of ignorance, like faux viewers do. The fact is Pitbulls are one of the most misunderstood animals on the planet, and if the facts are learned it is very easy for an objective and intelligent person to come to the conclusion that these are in fact very loving animals and amazing pets. I say this out of objectivity. There was a time I too thought they were far worse than they really were: But then I educated myself. I objectively took in all the information I could and came to my own conclusion. Please don't fall prey to the MSM sensationalist view of how dangerous Pitbulls are. If simple guidelines and due diligence are followed they are amazing pets that will give the owner years of loving joy. Please open your minds and do some real research, and don't base opinions on an entire beautiful breed on just a handful of news stories.

The following is a link to a great website on Pitbulls. Now sure, it is quite easy to tell what side of the debate the owner of this site is on, but you will find after reading through the site that the information is very factual, objective and informative. Please browse through it, and look for others, to educate yourselves on the truth about Pitbulls, rather than just knee jerk emotive reactions based on a news story or two.

If after you browse through this site and others on google you still feel they should be banned, then more power to ya. Just as long as you made up your own mind after objectively taking in as much factual information as possible. I think the facts will surprise many of you though, as to how wonderful these animals really are. Please read the link.

Peace,

OMC.

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/

[cigsandcoffee]

1. Yeah, they're great. They may rip off an occasional face or two...

...but other than that, they're very loving.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. That's Exactly What I Mean By Knee Jerk Emotive Reactions. Please Read

the link as opposed to just spouting out the 'Pitbull' talking point of the day.

[cigsandcoffee]

4. I may as well read why assault weapons are loved by the NRA.

Honestly. They'll tell you all about it here: http://www.nra.org

I think tigers are wonderful animals, too. But you wouldn't really want to keep one running around the house.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Educate Yourself And Then Respond. That's All I'm Asking.

If you only want to base your judgements on knee jerk reaction to sensationalist media I can't stop you. But your arguments would be far more valid if they were rooted in objectivity and informed factual basis. Just read the site with an open mind. It won't hurt you, I promise.

[cigsandcoffee]

14. Educate myself at pitbulllovers.org?

Fine. Then you educate yourself at machinegunlovers.org, and I'll debate those with you.

I try not to get my information on debatable topics from rigid advocacy groups, but you can feel free to maintain a lower standard.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Closed-Mindedness Will Always Weaken Your Argument.

I stated clearly that the site obviously speaks from a pro point of view, but it is done in an extremely unpropagandic fashion. Refusing to even visit it and objectively give it a chance speaks volumes as to how closed your mind is on the topic. I find that to be a shame.

[cigsandcoffee]

22. I find your promotion tactic to be an embarrassment.

If you want people to consider your stance as a dog apologist, offer them something a bit more balanced than a site which purports to love the breed in its very address. It's like sending someone to Whitehouse.gov to form an opinion on George Bush. Educate yourself about making arguments, for God's sake.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Open Your Mind, Grasshopper.

Read the site first. Then come back here and tell me why it was propagandic like whitehouse.gov or is not a site that is in fact informative.

If you continue to base your opinion on a website title alone with complete lack of knowledge of what is contained in the site, then your statements will continue to be rooted in sheer ignorance to the topic at hand.

[cigsandcoffee]

61. Please. You offered propaganda. Talk about ignorance.

You post a link to a single site called "pitbulllovers.com," and then implore people to educate themselves. If you had offered an additional site like "childrenwhohavehadtheirfacesrippedoffbypitbullswithapologeticowners.com," then I could see where you'd have the gall to implore readers to get an education.

I don't take issue with people educating themselves about a topic. What I take issue with is people who think that offering a single advocacy group's dog apologist propaganda amounts to that. It doesn't. Talk about a mindcrime.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. I Did No Such Thing. I Have Offered No Propaganda Whatsoever.

Your mind is closed completely. That has been made obvious by your complete refusal to seek out any facts on the topic. So I am through having this empty debate with you. Read the site and issue well formed opinions as to why the information contained within it is inaccurate or propagandic. Otherwise you are merely speaking out of complete and utter ignorance. (And that isn't a put-down, it is a definitvely accurate fact).

[cigsandcoffee]

68. You offered one side of an argument...

....a pro-pitbull point-of-view with no counter opinions. And then you had the nerve to implore that people "educate themselves."

Sorry, but it's as simple as that. It's like sending someone to the RNC website to educate themselves on Republicans. Would those people get the facts, or would they get propaganda? The answer is obvious.

[Mythsaje]

71. In this case the other side of the argument is ignorance...

I suggested you check out the AKC website and rescue organization sites.

Have you done so? Or are you just going to ignore that so you can berate the OP?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. And You Keep Responding With Ignorance On The Topic. And Requesting That

people educate themselves on the topic is not in the slightest bit nervy. It is 100% appropriate. What is shameful is those who are refusing to educate themselves and speak out of sheer ignorance while having too closed of a mind to even consider different points of view.

I find it quite humorous that you hold onto your 'propaganda website' analogies so steadfastly while having not even visited the site. That is the epitomy of ignorance.

[cigsandcoffee]

76. Do I need to explore the RNC site to know it won't be a fair...

..assessment of their policies? I'd love to hear how you think this is different.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. Squawk! Squawk! Squawk! Please Stop Repeating The Same Thing Over & Over

Comparing the site I linked as being equivalent to the RNC just shows how truly ignorant and assumptive you are being within the context of this topic. I feel for you, as I couldn't imagine being so closed-minded.

[Critters2]

113. Hehehe

chidrenwhohavehadtheirfacesrippedoffbypitbullswithapologeticowners.com


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[countingbluecars]

73. If you truly want to educate people

and help them open their minds, perhaps you should avoid openers such as "Don't Be An MSM Parrot Head".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

83. Why? Nothing Wrong With That Statement Whatsoever.

You do know what an MSM parrot head is right? That's what some people are acting like. I'm asking that instead of knee jerk reaction like that, form a well informed and well rounded opinion first. If someone disagrees with my assessment of pitbulls that does not make them a parrot head, nor is that what I'm implying. But they should at least be able to see both sides of the argument and have well based and presentable opinions on why they hold the opinion that they do. It is all about being fully educated and informed as to the facts of the matter. Parrot heads are the ones that have no interest whatsoever in the reality of the situation or any interest whatsoever in looking at a situation objectively, but instead find it prevalent to just "Squawk" one liner pieces of rhetoric with no justification, such as "but they rip faces off". Or repeating over and over "but they killed a woman" "but they killed a woman" "but they killed a woman Squawk!".

You can tell throughout DU the responses that are like parrots, and those, regardless of which side they're on, that are based on informed education. So my request to not be a parrot head, but instead at least inform yourself on the facts fully prior to casting an argument, is quite appropriate and need on this sort of subject.

[idgiehkt]

23. I see I'm not the only one who questioned that.

machinegunlovers.com

roflmao

[Mythsaje]

27. Hell, go to ANY dog rescue organization website...

Or the AKC website.

There isn't a dog organization in the country that agrees with the propaganda being put out about pits. And these are people who are EXPERTS.

But, by all means, if you'd prefer to be the canine equivilant of a fundie, feel free. Ignorance may not be bliss, but at least you can issue pronouncements regarding things of which you're ignorant without a single pang of guilt.

Breed hatred is damn near as bad, in my opinion, as racism. But, then again, I know something about dogs. Attitudes like yours get dogs killed for no good reason other than their breed...and that PISSES me off. You might as well go around and kill four to seven year old humans in the Muddle East just because they might grow up to be suicide bombers.

And, yeah, current studies suggest that dogs may well have a mentality equivilant to a three to seven year old human child.

[Critters2]

103. The AKC benefits financially from the mass breeding of dogs

including breeds called "pit bulls". Hardly objective.

[Mythsaje]

123. I'm aware of the failings of the AKC...

BUT, no, they don't PROFIT by mass-breeding. The AKC is a major proponent of worthwhile legislation to ban backyard breeding...assuming they can actually come up with legislation that doesn't suck.

[johnaries]

80. Then here - here's a whole LIST of sites and reports

on the Animal Farm Foundation website:
http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/topic.php?id=21&topic=17

Expert Opinion on Breed Specific Legislation
"Why debate what the expects have concluded..."

The Experts agree breed specific legislation will not result in a successful approach to community dog-bite prevention.

American Veterinary Medical Association
Task Force on Canine Aggression and Human-Canine Interactions
The Case Against Dog Breed Discrimination By Homeowner's Insurance Company. By Larry Cunningham

Every major organization involved with human/canine interaction is a opposed to breed specific regulations.

ASPCA
American Veterinary Medical Association
National Animal Control Association
Humane Society of the United States
The American Kennel Club
American Humane Association
National Canine Research Foundation
American Canine Foundation
American Dog Owners Association
Supreme Court of New York

Professionals in the Field of Human-Canine Interaction are Opposed to Breed Specific Legislation:

Andrew N. Rowan, Ph.D.
Dr M.L. Nitschke PhD Psychology
Turid Rugaas, Renowned Trainer and Author
Dr. Cornelia Wagner, D.V.M.
Dr. Karen Overall, MA, VMD, PhD, DACVB
Gerald Post, DVM, DACVIM (Oncology)
Irene Stur, DVM
Karen Delise, Author of Fatal Dog Attacks
Lehr Brisbin

Just do some reading, ok?

[Spider Jerusalem]

51. On a tangent...

there's no such thing as an 'assault weapon'. Modern, fully-automatic military rifles chambered for cartridges of intermediate power (such as the AK-47, M-16, H&K G36, etc) are called 'assault rifles' (after the German 'Sturmgewehr' of WWII, which was the first firearm of this type) and such weapons are and have been illegal for private ownership in the United States since the enactment of the 1934 National Firearms Act; the term 'assault weapon' is one that was invented in the early 1990's to refer to semi-automatic versions of these military weapons--which are no different to most rifles used for target shooting and hunting in any respect save for having features common to military weapons such a pistol grip rather than a straight stock, a higher-capacity magazine, and an attachment point for a bayonet.

You obviously know as much about guns as you do about dogs.

[derby378]

176. Well, they're not exactly illegal in America...

...as demonstrated on a recent episode of Countdown with Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. But they are tightly regulated by ATF.

[derby378]

175. What IS an "assault weapon," anyway?

Just askin'...

[IsIt1984Yet]

75. Labs have "ripped off a face or two", too. What's your point?

[tabasco]

110. Best first response ever.

But really, I'm going to www pitbull dot com to make a fair and balanced assessment.

[blonndee]

3. Thank you OMC! Well said. n/t

[xchrom]

5. living with animals brings the possibilities of risk.

but animals suffer far, far more than any thing they inflict on us.

mankind benefits -- and whether it's pitbulls or not -- in all kinds of ways from our association with them -- animals make us better.

that however doesn't preclude bad things from happening.

[cigsandcoffee]

8. Indeed...

Chihuahuas and house cats bring little risk. Pit Bulls and Mountain Lions bring a greater one.

[xchrom]

26. and i don't want to do without any of them.

we can reasonably talk about the owners of certain animals, however.

[MADem]

33. Oh, it depends on the cat!

I had a rescue one that, if he took a dislike to someone, he'd swiftly, brutally go for the ankle and sink his sharp fangs into it, drawing blood and causing pain. It was a bit problematic...! Eventually I learned to discern his intent, and could head him off before he assaulted a house guest.

That said, I'm not lined up to bring home a pit bull, because as you note, the degree of risk is clearly greater.

[Mythsaje]

64. When I first moved in with my wife

one of her cats, which, incidentally, is the only one we have left, tried to brain me with some potted plants she had hanging from her loft. He didn't think I belonged there and was deliberately and with malice trying to do something about it.

So, yeah, it definitely depends on the cat. This one is among the most polite males I've ever met, but he DOESN'T like strangers.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

93. Pit Bulls and Mountain Lions?

That's the best argument you have. Come on. Why don't you compare them to Great White Sharks? Oooooo...

How about you read about the breed and educate yourself about it. You obviously need it.

[rocktivity]

6. My neice has a pit bull-labrador mix

I said she might end up taking it to a doggie psychiatrist because it was a mix of one of the dogs with the best reputations and one of the dogs who have the worst!

:rofl:
rocknation

[Dr.Phool]

7. I take my dogs to the dog park every Sat. and Sun. morning.

It's in area where dogs can socialize and run around off-leash. On occassion, someone shows up with a pit bull, and we never have a problem. I think problems associated with pit bulls, are pit bull owners, who breed and train them to fight.

Remember that temperment is also a breeding skill.

edit: spelling. Keyboard is drunk

[never_get_over_it]

42. Bingo we have a winner

it is the owner not the dog - ever watch the Dog Whisperer - Cesar Milan has MANY pit bulls in his pack - but he has them under control. Obviously pit bulls can be very dangerous - as can other dogs. If dog owners are not prepared to take care of them properly it is the owner's fault not the dog.

[Mugu]

89. Mean people have mean doggies. N/T

[Critters2]

104. My beagle was attacked by a pit bull in a dog park

Pit bulls are no longer allowed in the park. If they were, we wouldn't go there again.

[Mythsaje]

131. It could have been any kind of dog...

Did it KILL your beagle? I thought that's what they did... Kill. Kill. Kill.

I wouldn't recommend you take your dog around a lot of Shiba Inus either, particular of the same sex. They don't tend to get along with other dog breeds unless raised with them.

[TorchTheWitch]

146. Try this on for size

My beagle was attacked by a pit bull in a dog park. Pit bulls are no longer allowed in the park. If they were, we wouldn't go there again.

My sister was attacked by an African American in a park. African Americans are no longer allowed in the park. If they were, we wouldn't go there again.

Exact same knee-jerk misguided bigotry.

[Critters2]

192. African Americans weren't purposely bred for aggression

pit bulls were.

Really bad analogy. And insulting to African Americans. Unless you really believe they were purposely bred for aggression..no, that makes it even more insulting.

[quickesst]

9. The American Pit Bull...

is rated highly as a family pet. Unfortunately, some of these dogs are in the hands of people that should be banned from owning any kind of animal. I agree with you. Thanks.
quickesst

[Mythsaje]

10. Pit bulls are among the newest and most popular service dogs...

If raised, socialized, and trained correctly, they are among the most loyal, loving dogs you'll ever meet.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Absolutely. I Lived With Someone Once Who Had One. I've Never Had More

fun with a dog than with that Pit. She was truly awesome and I miss her.

[Mythsaje]

15. I had a neighbor once who didn't have legs below his knees...

He had a beautiful female who'd tow him around on a skateboard. She was a wonderful dog. Friendly, playful, loving, and yet protective at the same time.

I also fostered a VERY large one for nearly a year...he's now a canine Good Citizen and a certified therapy dog.

People who blame dog breeds rather than ignorant owners are JUST as bad, in my opinion, as those who turn good dogs into monsters. I have no patience for people who don't truly understand dogs and believe their opinions count for something. They're contributing to the problem, not helping matters any.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Well Said Mythsaje

[idgiehkt]

39. It's your job to educate those people instead of whining.

But this refusal to acknowlege what pit bulls are consistently doing and ending up on the news for, and to face reality about what will inevitably happen to this breed, is in my opinion, what makes self professed pit bull advocates WORSE than the drug-dealing thugs that breed and train these kinds of dogs to fight. Frankly, I don't care whether you have any patience with me or not, you need to get over yourself and your denial and help save this breed from banning instead of demonizing people who have legitimate concerns about these dogs and what they are capable of. I've owned one,(for over a decade), I know, and honestly she presented some challenges that I really don't ever want to deal with again as a dog owner.

What breaks my heart in addition to hearing about children and elderly people being repeatedly mauled and killed by dangerous dogs is that most cities/counties don't consider the death of another pet to be that serious, so there is no telling how many neighbors' cats and dogs and other pets will be killed by an neglected dangerous dog before it finally ends up attacking a child and is put down. It's obscene, and what's worse is that advocates aren't employing ANY rational strategy to make concessions to save these dogs, or educate people about pits besides talking about how "I knew once once who was really nice." I'd love to know how that is going to put my kid's face back on.

If this is what the poor pit bulls have to rely on as advocacy, then they might as well hang it up and maul themselves to death.

I'm limiting myself to one or two comments per pit bull thread, so I won't be back here to argue...

[Mythsaje]

46. Pretty pointless to bother replying to you then, huh? n/t

[spacelady]

114. I have been guilty of thinking pitbulls are inherently bad, BUT

when this is the breed that are consistently being sought by bad owners - why shouldn't this breed be scrutinized? I have postulated that certain pitbills have been ruined - not necessarily the dog's fault, but nevertheless dangerous. Maybe the breed is just beyond reform BECAUSE of their popularity among bad owners. Yes, I realize there are good pitbull owners, but the breed itself has become unstable, because of their popularity.

[johnaries]

82. Isn't that what we're trying to do? Educate them?

We are providing them with resources and information. What we are "whining" about is that they won't use them and inform themselves but stick to rhetoric and sensationalism.

How can you educate someone that refuses to learn? :shrug:

Hmmm, sounds familiar, doesn't it?

[progressivebydesign]

119. No it's not ignorance. It's science.

Dogs are bred for particular traits. Unfortunately, those traits that Pitbulls are most often bred for.. .are killing an opponent or guarding drug houses. I've lived with a very sweet pitbull.. yes.. they do exist. But they are physically and emotionaly predisposed to killing whatever they choose to attack.

I dont' understand why normally intelligent people suddenly deny that dogs breeds have specific traits and physical characteristics. See lots of drug houses with labradors stationed behind the chain link fence? duh

[Mythsaje]

125. Pits were bred for bull-baiting...originally.

Poms were bred to protect noble children from rats during the Black Plague.

Dalmations were bred to haul carts.

Rotts were bred as cattle-driving dogs.

Dachsunds were bred to hunt badgers.

Chihuahuas were bred for food.

Believe it or not, and you probably won't, pits were ORIGINALLY bred NOT to be human aggressive. Sure, backyard breeders have fucked that all up, but the good breeders still maintain original breed standards for temperment.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. I've known PBs. I've loved PBs, And John Bolton, you are no Pit Bull.

sorry. I couldn't resist.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. Ha! LOL

[Hippo_Tron]

84. HAHA good one

[brentspeak]

19. But when the last time a beagle ripped a child's face off?

Or a Westie? Or a Yorkshire? Or a daschund?

Something about the pit bull (and rottweiler) makes it especially dangerous.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Yeah. Let's Condemn An Entire Breed Based On One In A Million.

It is extremely rare for a pitbull to attack a human, and when it occurs can almost always be linked back to some sort of irresponsibility of the owner. When they are treated and respected in a responsible fashion there is almost ZERO risk of them turning on humans.

Please, just educate yourself with the link or others, before just muttering one line parrot phrases such as "but they rip faces off blah blah". It's the same tired reaction every time: "But they rip faces off". If you want to debate the merits of the threat of pitbulls then I ask you do so while being informed and objective. Don't just spout the 'rip faces off' line. Give me solid factual evidence that shows they are reckless and risky when owned responsibly and that they don't make good pets. Don't just give me one liner knee jerk statements. Show me that you've educated yourself on the topic and that the risk of owning one outweighs the potential for an amazingly loving and riskless relationship.

Read through the site. Read through others. Just don't only limit yourself to a one line parrot headed argument of "bbbbut they rip faces off".

Thanks.

[brentspeak]

105. You ever heard of the word "sanctimonious"?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Why Yes, I Have. Ever Hear Of The Word "Meritless"?

How about the word "Ignorant", or the word "Misguided". How bout "Uninformed", "Irrational", "Illogical" or "Baseless". What about the word "Naive", "Fallacy", "Untrue" or "Melodramatic". What about the word "Alarmist", "Sensationalize", "Foolish", "Invalid", "Fallacious", "False", "Groundless" or "Inane". Have you ever heard of those words?

[Mythsaje]

31. Size, perhaps?

Might as well throw Akitas in there too. They're large, fiercesome, and notoriously protective.

You DO know who introduced the Akita to the U.S., don't you?

Helen Keller.

[karlrschneider]

40. Was that after she burned her fingers

reading the waffle iron?
;-)

[johnaries]

43. Helen Keller also had a Pit Bull.

OMC and Mythsaje are right, do some Googling and some research on your own. There are many myths about Pit Bulls that are quickly dispelled with a little research.

I used to believe some of the myths. I did some ressearch and found out the facts.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. I was attacked twice by a Lhasa Apso.

That dog later went on to attack the owner's daughter unprovoked. She had to get cosmetic surgery. Little dogs can do damage to a kid too. They finally put the dog down after that. Of course, he was an adult and quite vicious when they got him.

[eeyore]

99. My 70 year old mom still has a scar on her nose from a beagle bite

A beagle bit my mom on the face when she was a little girl. She hugged the dog and it freaked out, quite understandably. Any dog can injure someone, especially a child. If the owner is lax enough to let their dog be around a child without constant supervision they are asking for trouble.

It's the owners not the dogs.

[progressivebydesign]

120. Beagles don't kill and continue bitting until you are dead.

That is distinction that Pitbull enthusiasts are in denial about. A beagle may bite a child, a poodle might bite, a labrador might bite, if they have particular emotional problems. But ya know? An angry poodle is not going to kill a 70 year old woman who is gardening in her front yard. It's the pitbull's breeding that causes them to go for the kill... that's the big problem. It has some to do with an owner, but a lot of it is the dog breed. Their necks have been bred for a inpenetrable thickness to protect them from being killed by their opponent. They have been bred to fight to their death... big difference between a dog that nervously bites a child who hugs it. A pitbull or akita would have killed her.

[Red Right and BLUE]

179. My best friend's daschund mauled her 2-year-old.

And he was otherwise a pretty nice dog. It happens with ANY breed.

[tridim]

20. I met a pit bull at a garden store the other day

and I must admit I thought twice about letting him sniff my crotch. :yoiks:

Turned out he was a nice dog, but I guess that was to be assumed since he was hanging out in a public store.

[idgiehkt]

21. "pitbulllovers.com"... gee, that sounds objective.

sigh....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover. It Was Surprisingly Objective.

Just read through it with an open mind. That's not asking too much is it?

[madrchsod]

24. dogs are as good as their owners.

that is a simple truth. they are guard dogs and must be trained to know what is a threat and what isn`t. if they are un-trainable they should be put to sleep. the reason all pit bulls that are turned over to the humane society and put to sleep in detroit is that the blood lines are so contaminated by in breeding that the dogs are not fit to be human companions. it is not the dogs fault it is the humans that breed them.

there have been several pit bull attacks in our area and one led to a teenage girl freezing to death in afield near her home. the owner of the dogs knew the dogs had attacked something because they were all bloody and said nothing to the people who were searching for the girl. he was not charged because the county had no laws against visous dogs. now there is a law making the owners responsible for any dog breed attack in the county

[warrens]

25. I made up my mind 15 years ago when I lived in Brooklyn

The punks in my area used them like weapons, and every other house had a couple in the yard. Sure, there are nice ones, but basically they have been bred to fight, and that's what they do. It has nothing to do with MSM; kids in my neighborhood were maimed by pits who dug a hole under a fence and attacked them on the way home from school.

[Mythsaje]

34. The owners, not the breed.

Might as well blame all Arabs because half their leaders are fuckheads.

[warrens]

58. It's not just the owners. The breed is defective

Some never show signs; other times, sweet little doggies rip their owners faces off. Sometimes other breeds flip out too, but not like pit bulls.

[Mythsaje]

62. Bullshit.

The sort of thing to which you refer directly relates to the background of the dog. ANY dog from a backyard breeder or puppy miller might have inherent genetic problems and go off unexpectedly. NOT just pits.

A pit from a recognized breeder properly socialized and trained is less likely to go ballistic than your average Postal Worker.

[johnaries]

100. Got any facts to back that up with?

I've heard that too. Sometimes dogs do turn on their owners, although it's extremely rare. and Pit Bulls are no more prone to turning than any other breed.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

101. Of Course Not. Made Up Fallacies Are Never Supported By Facts.

:)

[progressivebydesign]

122. and pitbulls dont' stop with one bite, like other dogs..

they go for the kill. That's the problem. Lots of dogs bite.. probably more breeds bite than pitbulls, but pitbulls kill. That's unfortunate.

[sakabatou]

28. My dog is part pitbull

And he's a lazy ass bum.

[TreasonousBastard]

29. I am already well aware that pit bulls are not necessarily more..

innately agressive than rottweilers, dobermans, German shepherds, mastiffs, or other potentially dangerous dogs often used for security and defense.

Even the cute little Lhasa Apso was originally bred to defend Tibetan temples, and attacked interlopers in packs of up to a hundred-- not good at all for the interlopers. The Lhasa is built like a wolverine, with a hell of lot of teeth and muscle under all that fluffy hair.

The question isn't really one of banning the dogs, but one of more aggressively prosecuting the owners when one attacks. And clamping down on the dogfights that still exist on basements in some neighborhoods.

All of these dogs are affectionate, loyal, blah, blah, blah... But, they are also extremely territorial and their loyalty often means defending their owners and turf from perceived threats. It doesn't help at all when someone trains the dog to be an attack dog. And some of the methods to train them are scandalous and abusive in themselves.

I know two women who own rescue German shepherds that were abused as puppies. The dogs have to be locked up when visitors come until the dogs accept them as part of the territory, which doen't always happen.

As usual, don't ban the dog-- ban the owners.

[Mythsaje]

37. Yup...

Dogs are territorial by nature. They don't need to be TAUGHT how to defend their space...or, rather, their Alpha's space. (If a person doesn't know what this means, they should stick to cats). Large, potentially dangerous dogs need to be SERIOUSLY socialized. They need to learn that humans are their friends. This won't affect their ability to guard their territory or their people. The trick is countering instinct somewhat, not feeding into it, which is where some people run into trouble.

Anyone who deliberately turns a dog into a monster needs to be prosecuted...I'd recommend Attempted Murder, or at least ADW, should that dog attack another human being.

[johnaries]

54. I absolutely agree with both of you.

Too many people get dgs to be guard dogs, and think they have to be mean to be a good guard dog. They treat them like appliances, not like loyal, loving pets. But dogs are naturally territorial, and will always protect their masters. But the masters should have the dogs under voice command, or at least have some kind of control.

[creeksneakers2]

36. If you have two pit bulls of the same sex

they will tear each other apart. Is this true of any other breed of dog?

"Two Pit Bull Puppies is a Bad Idea
I might have a different view if I wasn't presented with thousands of questions regarding behavior issues, dog fights, and emails from distrought owners who lost one of their dogs in a in-house dog fight.
Pit Bulls on a whole are dog aggressive and while this is perfectly normal, why invite the possibility of long term trouble into your home?
I live with two Pit Bulls, females even (which some say is the worst combo), and I know from experience it's not a fun experience."

http://www.pitbulllovers.com/two-pit-bulls-is-a-bad-idea.html

[Mythsaje]

38. Uh, yeah...

It's very common in Asian breeds such as the Akita, Shiba Inu, Jindo, and Chows, in particular. Same sex aggression is not at all unusual.

On edit... it's also known in Mastiffs, which are large, gentle dogs in general. And Miniature Pincers as well.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. There Are Certain Guidelines That Need To Be Followed. That's One Of Them

But if the owner is informed and follows some basic guidelines then it should yield an amazingly positive experience.

And I'm glad you posted that. It shows that the site is objective and informative. I'm not saying Pits are perfect or that they don't come with any basic guidelines. There are certain situations that they are not good in or can be dangerous. But if some basic guidelines are followed there should never be any incidents and they would be amazing pets.

[johnaries]

45. Yes, it's true of many breeds. Ever hear of "Alpha Male"? nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

96. Yes, it's common in other breeds, especially with female dogs.

[Tyler Durden]

115. 2 Corgi bitches are a TERRIBLE idea.

They have better bite strength than most dogs, and the dominant sex is the female. Their temperament score is 77% (Pits score 83%!), but I ain't gettin' rid of Briget just because she's a nut. I just keep her fenced, leashed, and I watch her when she's out with the others.

[Maine-ah]

163. heh, a friend of mine

her family always had corgi's, a couple of males and a couple of females. Never any problems with fights.

I have a pure choco lab, bred from AKC certified by my MIL, who breeds with AKC champions, has beautiful well-tempered, healthy dogs, who go on to be AKC champions. I also have a black lab mix. I can't tell you how many times I have had to break them up. Both female. Generally the fight is over toys.

My choco lab is very protective of the house, but once you're inside and she knows your a friend she'd lick you to death.

[salin]

44. I don't like aggressive acting dogs running around my yard.

Don't care whether they are the former neighbors two pitbulls, or another neighbors chow. If you keep your dog on your property, I am fine with whatever your choice of dog is. However if you let your dog roam to my property, with such regularity that the dog begins to act territorial in my yard... toward me (as in - hostile toward me, in my own yard - because I work a lot and the dogs spent a lot more time wandering in my yard when I wasn't home than when I was home) - then forgive me if I am a bit concerned. :shrug: (that was the 'proverbial' "you" not to the poster - but in reference to a real situation.)

[johnaries]

47. I don't blame you. But, again, that shows irresponsible ownership. nt

[salin]

48. and indeed note the wording -

was focused on the owners more than the dogs - though descriptive of why I began to find the dogs intimidating.

[Mythsaje]

49. Again, bad owners...

NO dog should be allowed to roam around loose.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. The pitbull who killed the woman in KC was in a fenced in yard

http://www.kctv5.com/Global/story.asp?S=5206383

[Mythsaje]

79. Not well-fenced enough to keep it in, obviously...n/t

[Critters2]

107. Right. It was the fence's fault. nt

[Mythsaje]

126. No, it's the OWNER'S fault

for not securing the fence well enough to hold the dog.

Doh!

[countingbluecars]

133. So do you think there should be

safety regulations/codes for dog fences like there are for swimming pools?

[Mythsaje]

136. Let me put it this way...

If we're called upon to do a home check for placement, we make sure the fence is adequate to hold the animal in question.

The owner is responsible to make sure the fence is up to the job.

[FILAM23]

52. OK,

read the sites, have never agreed with putting down all pit bulls.
But totally would like ALL Dogs who attack a human unprovoked put down.

[salin]

59. makes sense to me.

from a public safety issue perspective.

I also think that if there is ongoing aggressive behavior, and pack behavior with roaming dogs, the owners should be required to restrain the dogs *before* there is an attack which would result in injury and require tha the dog(s) be put down.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. I'm one of the alleged "pit bull apologists" and I completely agree with

you. If the dog goes after someone unprovoked, put them down and punish the owner. Simple as that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

98. Yeah, those are irresponsible owners then who shouldn't have any dog.

from a pit bull to a beagle.

[FearofFutility]

171. I totally agree with you

My neighborhood is being terrorized by two pit bulls who repeatedly manage to escape their fenced yard. The owner has been fined and was ordered to fix the problem, but those dogs continue to escape. Yesterday, my son was walking down the street to his friends house, and was chased by one of them. He managed to climb up into the bed of my neighbors truck before the dog got him. I called animal control. They only work Mon-Fri 9am-5pm. I called the police. They said they couldn't do anything about it. I'm furious. This woman has no concern for her dogs or her neighbors. She leaves them out all day long while she's at work and they're stir crazy. This woman is a drug dealer and keeps these dogs only for the intimidation factor.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

177. I can't believe the police can't do anything. That's fucked up.

We need stricter laws and tougher punishments to deal with people like this. It'd be more effective and help more people than having the cops ignore the situation until the dog hurts somebody, and everyone goes all "PIT BULLS EAT BABIES!" again.

[meisje]

50. I feel the same about alligators, they are just misunderstood

[Mythsaje]

55. Alligators are reptiles with a reptile brain...

Dogs are intelligent, social animals with individual personalities, emotions, and inherent instinctive behavior that can be crafted by an educated human.

[Critters2]

108. I have an alligator

It sleeps with my kids at night, and plays with my cat, and guides our blind neighbor to the supermarket every Friday.

Blame the deed, not the species!

:sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

53. A couple of years ago

I would have said the same thing about Pits, and then Ruby came into our lives. She belonged to a friend of ours who was having domestic problems and needed someone to take care of his dog. To make a long story short I was at not pleased to say the least, we have several cats and a then 8 year-old. Ruby slowly but surely won everyones heart, except for one of the cats. She is now our dog her original owners couldn't take her back. She is the most loyal, gentle, tolerant dog I have ever seen, the cat I mentioned, I've had to remove the cat claws from Ruby's eyelid. The cat attacked her, Ruby could have removed the cats head with one snap but only whined like "whats wrong with you?" and now avoids the cat.In short the problem with Pits is more often then not the owner. As for problems with dog behavior I strongly recommend watching "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic channel if you can, the advise is spot on.

[Mythsaje]

57. Everyone I know says

that the Dog Whisperer knows his stuff.

Good advice.

[IsIt1984Yet]

56. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!! ALL dogs are potentially dangerous.

The idea that pits are the predominantly aggressive breed who is worthy of eradication is ridiculous.

It fosters a false sense of security with OTHER equally or more dangerous DOGS (note: not BREEDS)

ALL dogs are potentially dangerous when provoked and some dogs are dangerous when not provoked. Small children should be taught how to ask permission and proper approach any dog, not just pits. I've read all of these... "I know a guy who's cousin's friend was mauled by pits..." what-the-fuck-ever. *I* know a guy who was mauled by a black lab. It was inbred and he rough-housed too damn much with it and it snapped.

Some people are fucked up and mistreat dogs and they go nuts. With any BSL, they will find another breed. Then DU will be all in arms trying to eradicate Dobermans, or Shepherds, or Rotts... seriously, THINK about it!

Just cuz:

[Mythsaje]

60. Absolutely...

Dogs are individuals, just like humans are. They are a product of their breeding and their upbringing. In fact, lab attacks have become more common of late because of the inbreeding and puppy-millers.

Simple truth.

Any dog can be dangerous, but larger dogs are more so, of course.

[johnaries]

86. Yes! Even Dachsunds and Yorkies!

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
Pg 4, 2nd column.

Indeed, since 1975, dogs belonging to more than 30
breeds have been responsible for fatal attacks on people,
including Dachshunds, a Yorkshire Terrier, and a
Labrador Retriever.

[IsIt1984Yet]

88. And a Pomeranian.

I don't get it. I really don't get how people who claim to be liberal can broad-brush the breed and its owners/supporters.

People used to think certain "breeds" of people were more prone to agression than others as well.

Then... we matured.

[slater71]

65. If you can not control the training of the dog than

The owner of a pit bull will be punished according for what his or her dog does to some innocent person. The dog kills someone then the owner should be charged with murder and will pay for their crime by a jury of their peers. Remember, if you drive a car and kill someone, they don`t put the charges on the car.
Here in Florida, a gentleman of about 80 was getting his garbage can from the road and was attacked by to pit bulls. Luckily a neighbor a neighbor heard the screams and shot and killed one and another neighbor got the other with a shovel. The cops say they can only fine the guy who owns the dogs a few hundred dollars. He needs to go to jail for 5 to 10 and maybe he won`t train a dog that way again.

[Mythsaje]

66. I'd say manslaughter...

simply because it's difficult to prove intent.

But otherwise I agree...

[Bjornsdotter]

67. My sister was attacked

...as a toddler. She was crawling and the dog flew from the other room, started biting and mauling her....multiple puncture wounds in her hands and bite marks all up her arms. It took 3 adults and me (a teenager) to pull the dog off of her. This same dog, at a different time, bit my hand so severely that it ripped 2 nails off of my hand. It was my grandparent's dog and they just loved it and refused to have it put down. It also attacked my grandfather more than once and the family pressed to have the dog destroyed. This breed is unstable and should not be allowed.

Oh did I forget to mention the breed...it was a Shitz Tzu (sp)...nasty breed that one or just a demented dog?

My husband and puppy were attacked by a Great Dane that jumped a six foot fence and ran across 3 acres to attack my puppy that was tethered in our yard. My husband beat the Great Dane off with a metal garbage can lid, he was okay but our puppy was injured in the fight. After the police took the dog away it was put down, the dog was vicious.

Any breed/mutt can have a bad apple, but it's not fair to condemn the whole breed, any breed. Bad owners, bad breeders can make for a unstable dog.

Cheers

[Mythsaje]

69. I've been attacked by two dogs in my life...

A dachshund and a freakin' Chihuahua.

[Critters2]

109. You weren't killed though

Pity Mrs. McConnell wasn't attacked by a chihuahua. But she wasn't.

[Mythsaje]

127. Hell, my Pom could mess someone up

if we'd let him... He's twenty pounds of highly charged protectiveness. He's the ONLY dog we have we'd worry about biting anyone.

[Critters2]

191. Biting, killing two different things nt

[IsIt1984Yet]

70. Exactly. There are bad dogs, but no such thing as a bad breed.

I'm sorry about your little sister :(

[aikoaiko]

72. pitbulls? barely registers on the care meter whether

they go extinct as a breed or every person owns two.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

78. Neither objective nor informative about the issue of attacks.

It doesn't contain information on, for example, how often pit bulls attack people, as compared to other breeds of dog, it compares breed specific legislation to "gender or racial profiling", and it general its page on BSL is a dismissal, not a rebuttal, relying on emotive and silly arguments and low on facts.

I don't know what the statistics are, so I'm not committed either way on the issue, but the fact that this site couldn't defend itself better made me consider that there is probably a strong case for restricting pit bull ownership.

[johnaries]

85. OK, here's some statistics you can use.

The American Temperament Test Society, Inc. (ATTS) is a national not-for-profit organization (registered in the state of Missouri) for the promotion of uniform temperament evaluation of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs.

http://www.atts.org/about.html

Breed Name Tested Passed Failed Percent
AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 515 430 85 83.5%

TOTALS (all breeds) 26,615 21,619 4,996 81.2%

So, in unbiased testing, the Pit Bull has a better temperament rating than the average of all other breeds. Also, if you visit the site, you'll see that the Pit Bull was one of the most tested.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

173. That is disinformation, not information, in this context, I think.

I looked around on the net for a bit, and found that just under a quarter of all fatal dog attacks in the US are by pit bulls (60 out of 279 between 79 and 96, according to wikipedia), more than any other breed.

I don't know what fraction of dogs in the US are pit bulls, but it must be an awful lot less that 1/4, so clearly whatever the "Temperament Test" is it's not a good indicator of propensity to kill people, and so trying to pass it off as being so is not something I'm impressed by.

I'm not convinced 3 kills a year is enough to justify banning the breed - it depends on how many of them there are in America, and how many non-fatal attacks - but I think the OPs proud boasts for this site are unjustified.

[WinkyDink]

87. I don't mind that they're vicious so much as I mind that they're FUGLY.

[jmowreader]

90. Immutable truths about pitbulls

The pitbull must be bred correctly and given a great deal of attention by an owner who KNOWS how to handle a pitbull. It must never be stuck out in the back yard by itself, kept with other same-sex pitbulls, left alone for long periods of time or inbred. More critically, it must NEVER be taught to fight.

There is no room for debate on any of these topics. The biggest pit bull fan in the world will tell you these things. The worst pit bull hater in the world will do likewise.

I sell dog fencing. This is what happens:

Some guy will be looking for a way to make a few extra bucks. One of his buddies tells him you can make $1200 per litter breeding pitbulls--six pups per litter at $200 per dog. The villain in this story will wait for Saturday afternoon, drive over to Marketfair Mall (which, on Saturdays, is the place you go if you want a cheap pitbull) and buy two pits from the backyard breeder who's got the best rims on his SUV. He drives to Wal-Mart, buys a big bag of Ol' Roy Dog Food, two big dog bowls, and a couple of spiked collars, and sticks his "breeding stock" in the back yard.

He'll assign one of his children the task of feeding the dogs. They'll usually get fed.

About a year later, there are no puppies and the two pits are fighting with each other. He calls his buddy over to have him figure out why there are no puppies. "Joe, they're both male." Joe runs over to the dog pound and bails out a female pit. They have plenty.

Joe throws the female in the back yard. Now he's got three dogs fighting with each other. He puts an ad in the paper and sells the smaller male to someone for $200. The fighting is over, and soon the female goes into heat. A few weeks later, there are six kinda funny-looking pits in the back yard. He finally manages to get rid of them for $50 each...and sells his breeding pair as well.

Oh, and Joe's got a problem that he comes to see me about before he sells his dogs. They dig under his fence. Joe doesn't want to spend the money to build a kennel with a concrete floor. He doesn't want to dig a trench under his fence and install chicken wire--dogs catch their claws in it and won't dig anymore--because that's too much work. So Joe decides to stick stakes in the ground and staple the fence to it. It doesn't work but that's obviously because he just didn't use enough stakes.

Joe now knows how to tell the difference between a male pit and a female pit, so back he goes to Marketfair Mall. He gets an actual breedable pair--as in "one has a penis, one has a vagina, so I can mate them and get puppies"--from someone who's driving a blinged-out Escalade and goes back in the pit bull business. Three or four litters later, Joe realizes being a backyard breeder is hard work and takes his dogs to the pound.

So what's happened? Joe produced 30 pit bull puppies that dig under the fence, eat cats, chase the mailman and flatten his tires, and generally terrorize the whole neighborhood. There are thousands of Joes in America, all producing defective dogs for people who shop exclusively on price and don't mind that the dog looks like it's half Irish setter.

And there ain't a damn thing any of you can do about it.

You won't ban this piece-of-shit breed. Yes, pitbulls CAN be safely handled and be the most loving dogs ever. A lot of other things can be safely handled--plastic explosives, nuclear waste, Zyklon B--but would you store any of those things under your daughter's bed?

You won't institute a licensing process for people trying to get into the pitbull breeding business.

You won't license their owners.

You won't allow the cops to carry cans of euthanasia solution in their cars for dispatching dogs found fighting, or found being trained to fight.

This breed is so fucked up, I think the only thing you'll be able to do to save it is to euthanize about 98 percent of the dogs out there and start over with very carefully selected foundation stock being held by the top pitbull breeders in the business. Maybe that will work.

[Mythsaje]

92. Oh, nonsense...

There's a lot of truth in what you write, especially in terms of backyard breeders, but there are a LOT of responsible breeders out there and distinquished Staffordshire and American Staffordshire lines.

[jmowreader]

165. How many responsibly bred pits are cited in attacks?

Combine a responsible breeder who uses carefully-selected bloodlines with pre-purchase investigation of owners, an owner who knows how to handle this dog (and has the financial resources to do it properly) and you will never have a problem with a pitbull.

You're also dealing with $1000 dogs. Most pitbulls aren't in this class.

We have periodic problems of the sort that troubles pits in many breeds. Think back to when "101 Dalmatians" hit the street, and suddenly Dalmatians were the hot pet. Fuck up a Dalmatian mating and you wind up with a litter of deaf puppies.

Pits have two attributes that make backyard breeding them especially bad--their popularity crosses the "hot pet" periods (the papers aren't full of ads for Dalmatian puppies anymore, and when they were full of Dalmatian ads they also had plenty of pit bull ads), hence guaranteeing a steady supply of bad dogs; and if you fuck up a pit bull mating, you wind up with six little time bombs.

[Mythsaje]

178. One of my wife's fears

when Governor Gregoire showed off her new Shiba Inu pup was that they'd become the hot commodity, at least locally. We REALLY don't want that to happen, since most people don't have a clue what a Shiba requires and we'd see a massive influx of them at the local shelters.

[flvegan]

116. "Truth" is a funny word.

When you learn what it means, edit your post. That'd be good.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. .

:applause:

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. No. Crocodiles and Pirhanas are more unfailry maligned and misunderstood.

http://www.crocodiles_are_our_friends.com

[Rex]

95. Stop the breedism!

Porcupines are people too!

[Clarkie1]

102. This breed should be illegal, period. nt

[johnaries]

106. Why?

You said that in my thread also.

What if I said Clark was a traitor, period.
Or that George Bush was right for invading Iraq, period.

Of course, you and I both know neither of these are true.

How many times do we here at DU rant about political pundits making wild statements without any facts to back them up? Can we rant at them for doing it and then do the same thing on other issues?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. Though You Provided So Much Thought Provoking Substance There, Mind If I

request just a litttttttle bit more from you regarding why you feel that way?

[Mythsaje]

128. My wife

suggests that stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed either.

[progressivebydesign]

118. Oh.. this thread is a hoot... are you serious?

Ummm... have you really researched Pitbulls? I mean... REALLY researched them? They are BRED for their ability to kill their opponent. It's not that they may bite people any more than any other dog... BUT the HUGE distinction is that while other dogs may bite or nip, the Pitbull is genetically predisposed (through breeding) to KILL whatever they first bite. That's the distinction. A poodle may bite more often, but you don't usually see people ripped to shreds by a poodle.

Just as herding dog owners understand the particular traits and physical attributes of a herding dog... you must understand and stop denying the truth about Pitbulls. They have been bred, sadly, for the destruction of an opponent. Whether that opponent is someone trying to get drugs or guns from a house, or a dog opponent in a fighting ring.

Ya think that drug houses use chihuahuas or labradors to guard their illegal activities? No.. they use dogs that can kill an intruder..

[Mythsaje]

129. Not originally they weren't...

It's not the dogs' fault that their breed has been turned to this use.

[Mr_Spock]

170. But until society stops using them for that purpose

I will not stick my hand out for one I do not know to sniff - I saw a guy get his hand penetrated clean through simply for holding his hand out to be sniffed by a pit-bull. It was an awful injury. I had one sneak up behind me and bite my ass. Why would it do that? Bad owners.

[Mythsaje]

182. Don't stick your hand out toward strange dogs...

if you ARE going to do things like that, you need to learn to read dog language. There are tell-tale behaviors ALL dogs exhibit if they're likely to attack.

[Mr_Spock]

186. I didn't do that!

Some trusting nitwit did that.

But it is undeniable that people do train their dogs to kill and more often than not they will choose a breed that has a strong jaw and a reputation for mayhem. It's the reputation that feeds the reputation. That's how these folks I'm talking about think and you know it. I no more blame the dog than I blame the troops, but there are certain realities that must be acknowledged.

[Truthiness Inspector]

121. Great post

I totally agree. It sickens me to read that some people want Pits banned because of prejudicial and "I'm scared of them" reasons, of course citing sensational and dramatic anecdotes - we can all find them for anyone and any breed or species. I've had Pits and Pit-mixes almost my whole life, and I don't need ignorant, gullible people telling me they should be destroyed when my dogs, past and present, have done nothing wrong.

[pitohui]

124. all the posts in the world won't change the liability issues

it is a reality that you can lose your homeowner's insurance if the insurer finds out that you have a pit bull or another dangerous dog

as time goes by, people who are responsible and future-oriented will be less and less inclined to own a dog that means they can't insure their home -- often their single most valuable investment -- they will chose another breed and preserve their family's financial future

a larger and larger percentage of people who keep pit bulls will be in the group of irresponsible people who don't care about petty little things like paying an insurance bill -- much less something as inconvenient as taking time to properly train their dog

i see no future for these dogs except as a plague on society because responsible people (a few) may have them now but they won't have them in the future as they become more and more of a financial and insurance liability

it doesn't matter if they are banned by law if they have already been banned by financial reality

[Mythsaje]

130. Farmer's Insurance

refuses to deny coverage because of breed prejudice.

Maybe pit owners will just be forced to pay a little higher premium.

[BigMcLargehuge]

132. I made up my own mind... They're fucking dangerous

Same with wolves and wolf crossbreeds, grizzly bears, bengal tigers, salt water crocodiles and bull sharks.

[Mythsaje]

134. I rescue dogs that are 98% genetically wolf...

They're independent, opiniated, and persnickity. But one thing they AREN'T is dangerous.

[BigMcLargehuge]

135. uh huh...

[Mythsaje]

137. Whatever...

Look up the Shiba Inu, smart guy.

[FearofFutility]

168. Not dangerous?

http://www.phillyfuture.org/node/3877

[Mythsaje]

181. Ah, geez...

A single woman cannot maintain pack order among that many hybrids. I wouldn't recommend anyone try with any more than two or three Shibas, and they're a THIRD of the size of these animals. They may not tear a person up, but they WILL take over the household if given the opportunity.

SIZE is what makes these creatures dangerous...not their breed.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. Here's my solution: Own whatever damn kind of dog you want. But-

if your dog kills somebody, that's first degree murder. If your state doesn't have the death penalty, you can go down for life without parole.

If your dog "only" mauls a person, like a little kid who will be scarred for life, that's attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon. I'd say, maybe something like 40 years to life with no chance of parole.

[Mythsaje]

139. It's NOT first degree murder...

No intent.

Second degree, MAYBE.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. I don't care.

If people demand the "freedom" to own psycho dogs, then they need to take FULL responsibility when their fucking dogs kill people.

First Degree.

[Mythsaje]

143. It doesn't work that way...

I'd like to throw all these bozos out of office, including all of the Cowpoke's Supreme Court nominees, but I was told in no uncertain terms that it's impossible.

It's also impossible to charge someone with 1st degree murder without intent.

[Warren DeMontague]

Well, I happen to know that in my state, it's possible to pass all kinds

of crazy laws.

Generally, I think the crazy laws are a bad idea- for instance, you have people rightfully outraged about Polly Klass, so they pass a "three strikes" law.. but instead of locking up the really dangerous folks, you end up giving a third strike to the dude who stole a piece of pizza.

We have places in this country where potheads are doing more time than rapists. So don't tell me you can't get draconian laws on the books if you want 'em.

Personally- I think that in this situation, something has to be done. We've had numerous crazy, vicious dog attacks in our area in recent years, starting with the woman killed by the Presa Canarios in San Francisco. A Year or so ago, we had a little seven year old girl who was horribly mauled by a pit bull, scarred for life.
Then, a few months ago it was a woman who was walking with her little kids, and a dog got loose and attacked them. She protected her kids, but in the process her nose got bitten off.

The one common thread all these attacks have is the owners, universally throwing up their hands and going "Shucks, well, not my fault". The owner in the nose-biting case actually had the nerve to say "blame is immaterial in this situation." Sure- that's easy to say- when you still have your fucking NOSE on your face.

And this isn't some kind of media-hyped shark attack phenomenon.. I know exactly what people are talking about when they say they live in fear of their neighbors' dogs. There are places I won't walk, trails I won't take- because I know there happen to be psycho dogs held in by rusted chain or rotting wood fencing and little else. And I'm a big guy.. With my kids? Forget it.

The way I see it, there are three choices:

One, ban specific breeds.

Two, make the penalties for owning a dog that hurts people SO severe that people think twice before keeping these dangerous dogs. That's my solution- and it's obvious to me that we, as a nation, have no problem passing crazy, draconian laws. Here's an area where I could actually get behind one.

or Three, do nothing, because obviously all dogs are sweet and kind and it's whiny people who hate (and provoke) dogs that are the real problem.

[Mythsaje]

148. I suppose you COULD pass such a law

but it wouldn't pass Constitutional muster.

1st degree murder requires intent.

It's one of the reasons I think O.J. skated, btw. The M.O. didn't conform to murder w/intent. They MAY have been able to prove 2nd degree. Maybe.

Usually 1st degree murder charges require that the killer intends to cause the death of the victim with malice aforethought. 2nd degree is usually a crime of passion with no intent beforehand.

In Germany, I understand, DUI is considered Attempted Murder, because the person makes the conscious choice BEFORE becoming intoxicated to make his or her car accessible while drinking.

Manslaughter is usually the best you can get out of dog attacks because no one INTENDS any kind of death to result from the circumstances that arise. Or, at least, it's not provable.

I'm speaking as an educated amateur here, of course. I'm not a lawyer. But this is the way I understand it to work.

[Warren DeMontague]

149. Then call it something else.

Like I said- if you can throw people in prison for 5, 10, 20 years for non-violent drug offenses, you can't tell me you couldn't make some crazy-ass law regarding owners whose dogs attack other people.

[Mythsaje]

151. That would be the way, I suppose...

But I'm not sure I'd be willing to hand these freaks any more power of any kind.

Give them an inch and they'll take it a light year. Or to infinity, and beyond.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. And I'd greatly prefer it not to open my morning paper and see this

(graphic)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2005/06/23/MNGRODDG2S1.DTL&o=0

accompanied by dog owners throwing up their hands & saying "Oh well, nothing we can do. Blame is immaterial."

If you don't want to criminalize specific breeds, then the logical thing to do is penalize -severely- owners whose dogs attack. I don't want to hand the "freaks" who get off on keeping vicious, deadly dogs any more power of any kind, either.

Protecting people from dangerous shitheads isn't fascism. Letting dangerous shitheads run roughshod over other people IS.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

154. BSL is stupid and ineffective.

If someone wants to have a nasty dog and they can't get a pit bull, then they'll just move onto another breed. Pit bulls are the current hysteria breed. In the past, it's been German Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, Chow Chows and Sharpeis.

However, I believe what would be more effective (and not punish responsible owners with good dogs) is to start really enforcing the existing laws regarding animal cruelty, dogfighting, and the owner's legal responsibility if their dog does attack and to make the punishments for breaking those laws more severe.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. I think we're in agreement on that.

But I also think something needs to be done. The status quo aint workin'.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. It's not even a pit bull issue really.

Owners should be responsible for any breed of dog they have that attacks people and there is a large animal cruelty problem in this country and it's too often treated with a slap on the wrist. If we got a lot tougher with that, then the problem pit bull situation would take care of itself and responsible pit bull owners don't have to lose their family pet (often BSL calls for turning in your pet for euthanasia). Can you imagine being a good dog owner with a nice family pet and having to face either moving your life out of the town/county/state or putting your loved pet down because of the issues create by irresponsible owners? I couldn't imagine having to deal with that.

[TorchTheWitch]

180. It's even worse than that

Not only will people with good dogs who are responsible and never allow their dogs out of their control have to allow their pets to be killed for no good reason or move away, most of those people with the problem dogs will simply ignore the law or turn the dogs loose on the neighborhood to deny responsibility. The kind of people that have these vicious dangerous dogs don't care about them or care about the people the dogs come in contact with, which is what made them terrible owners to begin with.

Kansas City is about to have a huge problem with free roaming dangerous dogs that will be desperate, starving and breeding. The problem already started when they first banned the breed. Some of those people let their dogs loose to deny responsibility. Now that KS has greatly expanded the law, all that will be accomplished is that they will euthanize a whole lot of good and innocent dogs while many of the problem ones will be let loose on the neighborhood by their bad uncaring owners.

The whole reason this dangerous dog phenomenon has gotten so completely out of control is the fault of the local governments to begin with. They may have always had leash laws and small worthless fines for owners with dogs that have bitten, but they are almost never enforced. The woman in KS who was killed by those vicious dogs would never have had a problem if the local government had done something about the owner to begin with. They knew he kept dangerous dogs, they had confiscated dangerous dogs from him before, and they knew the dogs were cared for improperly. No doubt they had probably had numerous complaints from neighbors before that nothing was done about.

As I had mentioned in another thread, the most vicious, nasty, biting psycho dog in my neighborhood is a Pug. The owners are unbelievably stupid and uncaring about how their dog behaves, and unapologetic when the little monster attacks people and their pets. We have leash, licensing and biting laws here, the police have gotten more complaints about this menacing creature than can be counted anymore, yet NOTHING is being done about it, and this has been going on for a little over 5 years now.

So far, it's seriously bitten one of the neighborhood kids (who now has a bad scar on his leg for life), killed my next door neighbor's cat, ripped open the flank of the greyhound rescue dog that lives down the street (who now has a huge ugly scar and a bald patch where no hair will grow back, which required very exepensive and emergency surgery to fix), bitten several other people in the neighborhood (including me and my dog), and has caused two car accidents (one pretty bad) by plunging across the street in order to attack someone or their dog.

The owners have two current lawsuits against them (the parents of the kid I mentioned and the owners of the greyhound), but the township is doing NOTHING - NOT ONE DAMN THING - to punish the owners of this dispicable vicious menace, and the owners don't give a crap about what their dog is doing. EVERY time that dog gets away from its owners it attacks someone or someone's pet, and the owners are terrible about keeping the dog confined and controlled. All the time I hear additional stories of the lastest attack this creature has made on someone or someone's pet.

[Mythsaje]

157. Yep... they could attach felony charges

to any death or severe injury that occurs, which changes the dynamic completely.

IF they start treating animal abuse and neglect as dangerous felonies. That IS what they are, after all. When you step back and look at the Big Picture.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

158. Exactly...plus studies show that people who abuse animals are also

much more likely to harm people. I bet we could cut down on humans commiting violent crimes against other humans, if we can lock some of them up for felony animal cruelty charges.

[Mythsaje]

159. I was thinking the same thing...n/t

[ryan_cats]

141. Pit Bulls are great animals

Every Pit that I've known was an incredibly smart animal. They were never aggressive and they were very friendly. I have no problems with Pits.

The problem is the owners. You get dumb red state morons (is that redundant?) who get a Pit to prove how 'tough' they are and they abuse the animal and make it aggressive. It's all up to the owner.

If you take care of them and raise them right they're great and safe dogs. Abuse them and they are aggressive and dangerous.

Any time you see a violent Pit Bull story, take a good look at the owner because that is the reason they go bad.

[Mythsaje]

144. Rednecks and gangers.

Same personality types, different culture.

Bad juju for dog ownership.

[Mr_Spock]

172. Exactly.

But how do we stop the ignorant "tough-guy" mostly right-wing ass holes from breeding and training these animals to be killers?

[Mythsaje]

184. NOT mostly right wing assholes...

They're very popular in the inner cities as well.

At least fifty percent of ALL dogs I see in my neighborhood are pits. Most appear to be quite friendly.

I had a six month pup walk up to me yesterday, tail just a-swinging. He showed no fear of people...didn't shy away from me, or even his owner when he came to collect him.

The FIRST thing anyone has to watch for with any dog is fear or overt suspicion behaviors. If a dog is used to seeing a human as something to fear, that animal is on a track to trouble. This is one reason that animal abuse/neglect should be a felony...irresponsible breeding and ownership should be treated as reckless endangerment, at best.

[Mr_Spock]

185. I first heard the term "flaming liberal" in the city

The type that would raise an animal to kill were often the RW tough guys in the city too. Don't assume all city people are liberal - I can attest to that not being true.

[elehhhhna]

142. Seen 'em. Met 'em. Loathe, fear & mistrust them

[goforit]

145. I've been to the emergency animal hospitals, and there is no way in

hell with the white-trash-red-neck- society that pitt bulls
should be allowed.
They use them to cock fight other dogs to their death and won't even blink if
another person is bitten just minding their own business.

Pitt Bulls may have a fun loving style to their owner but they
have an uncontrollable trigger in their brain to attack till
their victims death.

So owners across the country step into reality!!

WE live in the wild west thanks to Bush! Anything goes.
So if by chance your darling little puppy KILLS another,
PAY the consequences!!!! Legally in court!! or now thanks to Bush
the wild wild west style!!!!
Something to ponder on!!

[Mythsaje]

147. They're also the IN dog for inner city punks...

what's amazing is with all the pits being walked up and down my street all the time, NOT A ONE of them has come to the fence to fence-fight with my dogs, even when my Pom is coming unglued at them.

[entanglement]

150. I have nothing against pit-bulls, they are animals

Their owners...different story altogether

[Montauk6]

152. Well, I've made up my mind without benefit of reading the website.

I believe that the problem is usually with the owner. Some folks get some vicarious thrill of owning a vicious animal; it so happens that when I first moved to NYC, the previous tenants in my first apartment were drug runners who'd been busted. They reportedly kept a couple of mean pitbulls who's voiceboxes (so the story goes) were surgically removed so that, I guess, would-be foes wouldn't be warned away by their barks.

And a lot of times these macho owners don't take the responsibility of controlling or keeping their dog in line (Killer makes me look like a badass); THEY'RE the ones who should be banned!

[ConsAreLiars]

160. Good resource. Kudos for keeping civil in the face of willful ignorance.

The irrational beliefs of some that "all pit bulls" are essentially the same and should be exterminated or prohibited as a breed is, as I see it, the same fear-based mass-delusional "labeling" that leads fundie fanatics to believe that "kill them 'all'" is some kind of solution.

20 dog bite deaths annually, and some people are driven into the usual fear-panic-cowardice appeal for more state power and fewer individual rights or options. Fear and a love for authoritarianism, for fascism, are two aspects of the same basic social process, and it is a shame, if not a surprise, to see that this kind of manipulation working so well with a few people who otherwise self-identify as progressive or liberal or small-d democrats.

[Mythsaje]

161. YES!

I feel the same way.

But, then again, I've made my thoughts on this subject pretty clear at various times.

C'mon people, no feeding the beast.

[ConsAreLiars]

162. The overt pathology of that kind of "thinking" should be apparent

to everyone, I would hope, and I regret that they have proven so vulnerable to this kind of "them-ist" fearmongering. Sad.

[B3Nut]

166. You took the words right out of my..well..keyboard.

I've been a Pit Bull fancier for many years now (started out in a UKC show club, in fact) and also work in rescue (my wife's old rescue in WI merged with Chicagoland Bully Breed Rescue which covers a nice chunk of this part of the Midwest). I'm as sick of the hysterical witch-hunting (which is exactly what it is) as I am of the assholes creating problem dogs. That's one reason why I like going to elementary schools so much for my wife's presentations - it helps nip this nonsense in the bud and inoculate young minds against hysterical nonsensical ideas their parents may unfortunately hold, as well as encouraging young people to be kind to animals and avoid cruelty.

I have yet to see anyone calling for the extermination of my breed who has done *any* serious work with them. They've either encountered a defective specimen or, most often, merely read a sensationalistic "news" story (hmm, I thought the MSM was full of crap, but now they aren't? Which is it? Hmm?) and decided to burn some witches. No canine or veterinary professional I've ever dealt with or talked to advocates breed-specific legislation. Heck, some of our best adopters are shelter and vet clinic employees! One of our most hard-working volunteers is a shelter worker in the Milwaukee area, who has a Pit Bull and American Bulldog, both with Canine Good Citizen titles and who are preparing for animal-assisted therapy work. We're preparing for therapy work with one of ours as well.

Here's the Humane Society of the United States's opinion:
"The HSUS opposes legislation aimed at eradicating or strictly regulating dogs based solely on their breed for a number of reasons. Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) is a common first approach that many communities take. Thankfully, once research is conducted most community leaders correctly realize that BSL won't solve the problems they face with dangerous dogs."
http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/dangerous_dogs.html

www.workingpitbull.com
www.forpitssake.org
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pets_related_news_and_events/hardworking_pit_bulls.html

Adopt a homeless Pittie: www.chicagopitbulls.org


I'm being mauled! :D


Deuce held hostage by the Evil Mean Kitty(tm)


Weezee (Pit X Rott) soaking up attention in an elementary-school presentation

Todd in Beerbratistan

[ConsAreLiars]

189. Good links and nice pix. I've known dogs of all varieties.

But it is a street-rescued pit bull who has won my vote for best Buddha-nature. I have never known a dog as gentle, as compassionate. She worked as a therapy dog with mentally ill (transitionally hosued) homeless population, evading kicks by a few, keeping distance from the more timid (winning their trust over time), lapping up affection from those who just wanted a bit of love in their lives.

She won't fight even when attacked (see vet bills) and has shown aggression only when her owner was being assaulted (by a cat when her "owner" was on the other side of a window -- I saw the situation develop and had already grabbed her collar). The extraordinarily stupid belief of some that a breed-label on a dog will define it as a monster (or a saint) is the same kind of thinking that labels all of "them" as being of one type. They live in a world of black and white, and would kill off millions because their fear.

(edit typo)

[Warren DeMontague]

187. Jesus, you have people here who think pictures of naked women should

be against the law.

You want to talk about a "love of authoritarianism"- yeah, I don't like that, either. But I also think a love of being able to take a walk on a public street or trail with your kids and not having to worry about some psycho dog tearing through a rotted wood fence and biting your nose off, that's legitimate, too.

I don't know where you live, but where I live, attacks by dogs are an actual problem. Personally, I don't believe in breed-specific bans- but I do think that people who own the dogs that attack, or kill people? They should be sent to Prison. For a VERY long time. Like, Murder charges time. Assault with a deadly weapon charges time.

There needs to be a real deterrent against these people who keep crazy fucking dogs to make them feel more manly.

[jmowreader]

164. The ATTS test is bullshit, folks

http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html

According to this page, the test simulates a walk through a park in which various situations are presented to the dog--friendly, neutral and threatening. The dog is attached to the end of a six-foot leash and the handler cannot say anything to the dog during the test.

The dog fails the test if, at any point during it, the dog displays "unprovoked aggression, panic without recovery, or strong avoidance."

In other words, the dog running for cover with its tail between its legs in response to a perceived threat receives the same "fail" as one who responds to a perceived threat by attempting to tear out its throat.

To see how much bullshit this test is, consider the American Water Spaniel. It got an 80 percent (as opposed to the pit bull's 83.5 percent) on the ATTS test. Then we see that of the five American Water Spaniels tested, one failed. How did it fail? Probably saw something that scared the shit out of it and took off running. Same deal with labradors and a lot of the other dogs on the list.

How did the pit bulls respond? I don't know that either. They really need to break this out to make it more clear--a 100-pound dog that hides every time it's presented with a challenge is a different problem from one who tries to rip out the challenge's throat.

[MadHound]

167. Nice try there pal,

But lying by omission is still lying. Why didn't you post *all* of the problems listed for the test? Why did you not post any link that backs up your BS? Why are you building strawman arguements in opposition to the test, when anybody looking at your link can see that it is much more comprehensive than what you claim?

Sorry, but the ATTS test has a great track record in regards to predicting a breed's aggression. Sorry if it may ding your favorite breed there, but hey, that's the way things go. And quite frankly the results for pits on the ATTS are spot on. Raise a pit with love, affection and disipline, and you have a wonderful friend for you and your family.

But like any other dog, if you're mean to them, if you abuse and neglect them, then you're going to wind up with a vicious, aggressive dog. But that would happen with any dog, from a cocker spaniel to a Great Dane.

Again, it isn't the breed, it is how the individual dog is raised.

[jmowreader]

174. And same to you...

Y'know, this "if you don't have a link it can't possibly be true" attitude that pervades the Internets is starting to get real fucking annoying.

My favorite breed of dog? I used to like dogs, but after having to deal with "my dog that I don't take care of digs out from under my fence, you tell me right now how to get it to stop" I say just put every last one of 'em to sleep. Right now you couldn't pay me to take a fucking dog, and I don't care what kind it is. Give me a cat any day of the week.

But right now we're talking about a test that you pit fans are dancing around going "look! It says pits are less aggressive than (fill in the name of dog not generally regarded as aggressive) so pits are just the sweetest little puppies."

I looked at that test. Looked real hard. It has three completely different failure modes--unwarranted aggression, unrecoverable panic, uncontrollable retreat. Which is worse? Generally uncontrollable aggression...and you're more likely to see that in a large terrier than you are in something like a spaniel, which would prefer to run when faced with a threat.

I believe I pointed out in the other ATTS thread that's floating around, that ATTS is principally a marketing tool. The two most commonly tested dogs are German Shepherds and Rottweilers--dogs in which uncontrolled aggression is bad, because the biggest users of these dogs (legitimate guard services) are going to train them to kill people. Dogs that have been trained to kill and that come with hair triggers bring big lawsuits. Those two breeds combine for almost 30 percent of all the dogs that have ever been tested. The majority of the rest of the dogs fall into two categories: dogs known for their aggressiveness--like pit bulls--and dogs known to be good around children.

Pit bulls have two other wonderful characteristics: they're easy to turn bad through either bad breeding or bad handling, and they're muscular enough (especially in the muscles that operate the jaws) that a bad one is a fucking nightmare.

[Mythsaje]

183. You DO realize that biting and aggression are fear behaviors, right? n/t

[Mr_Spock]

169. Too many are owned by ignorant RW ass holes

Almost every RW toughguy in my area want's to own one. They treat them like shit to ensure that they will be a good protection dog, which is why they got the "tough" breed to begin with.

If people would cut the attitude about this being the dog that is best for tearing up an intruder, then they will be a fine breed, until then, well - I was bit in the ass by one that snuck up on me in a public area & another bit clean through the hand of someone who held his hand out to let the dog sniff it. Both were pitt bulls owned by knucklehead tough guys. How do we stop the tough guys (and gals) from wanting this breed as their personal gun?

[zonkers]

188. Are you on drugs?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

190. No. Sorry We Don't Have That In Common.