Breaking News - Israel suspends airstrikes

[malaise]

for 48 Hours - BBC International - direct result of International outcry re Qana.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5229058.stm

Add.

[Baselinereality]

1. Crikey, Don't Tell Bush--He'll Say It's One Of Those "Fake" Peaces.

[malaise]

3. He's on CNN now

Outcry from most of the world's leaders finally forced a stop to this carnage.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

2. Thank God! Any links? They are talking about this on CNN as I type. n/t

[malaise]

5. Nick says several aircraft are flying over Beirut

as he speaks but no bombs.

[dorktv]

4. wait does that mean that the DUers who blame Israel for everything

will suddenly have to stop and think about what they have been saying?

[Baselinereality]

7. So, Would That Make You Feel Better?

Is that what you want? Do you want people to stop blaming Israel for everything, or do you want the bombing to stop? Or would you rather Israel to continue bombing while at the same time people stop blaming them for everything?

If people stopped criticizing Israel, would that make everything all better?

Because, I hate to break it to you, there are a lot more people than just DUers criticizing Israel for their actions.

And this world would be a lot better off if more people on both sides of the issues thought a little bit more.

[dorktv]

22. I just want people to stop acting like Israel suddenly decided to bomb

southern Lebanon. If this cessation of bombing raids does it, good.

[shadowknows69]

26. I don't give a fat rats ass who started what at this point

I applaud Israel for showing some restraint and humanity finally. I hope Hizzbillah will do the same.

[dorktv]

35. You know as well as I do that Hezbollah is not going to. Israel can

be reasoned with, these guys cannot because they know they can use anything Israel does against them.

[QuestionAll...]

34. pardon me, but the bombs are north south east and west...

have you not been paying attention?

can someone find the link to the Lebanon map showing the air strikes? I think some re-edumacation is in order here.

[dorktv]

38. yes yes Israel completely evil...I get it.

You know they are bombing the roads and other important areas so Hezbollah does not have access to anything they need right?

[QuestionAll...]

46. you said south and I corrected you.

stop with that evil nonsense because you are making me believe there really is something apparently evil at work here.

[dorktv]

48. There is. Evil is when you have a group of people who want power and

will take it at any cost...including the lives of the followers.

[QuestionAll...]

49. I must agree with you. nt

[dorktv]

55. See, even we can agree on somethings. I was reading Terror In the Name of

God by Jessica Stern and the thing that struck me the most was when she was crossing a border checkpoint with her guide (a young Muslim woman) and an Israeli soldier who was equally young came up to the guide and asked her out on a date.

He did not care she was Muslim, she was just a pretty girl he thought would be a nice person to have a date with.

[QuestionAll...]

59. I'm sure we agree on many things.

I want to give you a hug right now because I can feel you are frightened. I am too.

[dorktv]

103. here is a hug for you

:hug:

Just sad really, sad that this never seems to stop.

[fooj]

81. You know...I'm hesitant to jump in here...

I don't believe that the majority of Americans who oppose this aggression think that Israel is completely evil. I don't believe that for a moment. I do believe, however, that Israel plays the "victim" card much too often. Just my feelings on this matter...

[dorktv]

109. I can see it when they attacked the Palestinian territories. I thought

that was wrong and still do. However, Hezbollah should have kept their butts out of this...it is one thing to condemn Israel for treating the Palestinians wrong (which they seem to do more often then not) but another to claim they are in the wrong for reacting violently at a group that has been attacking them for 6 years.

Six years would make anyone go nuts...unfortunately they have an enemy that uses the innocent as shields and that makes this harder to deal with.

Even if Israel ceased their fire, would Hezbollah?

[Baselinereality]

36. Well. I Happen to Think That This is Simply the Next Phase

in Bush's perverted War on Terror. I don't know what you mean when you say that you want people to stop acting like Israel suddenly decided to bomb southern Lebanon. If you're trying to say that Hezbollah's been harrassing Israel for awhile now and that they were trying to provoke Israel, perhaps to distract them from their actions in the Gaza Strip, or that this type of low-level aggravation has been going on for decades, and so it's not as if Israel suddenly woke up one day and decided to see what it would be like to blow up a few missiles, I understand that. I also think, even with that evidence, that their response has been disproportionate.

And if good people with consciences around the world cannot understand the concept of a disproportionate response, then I tell you what: the next time there is a police officer shot in Houston, why don't we send the National Guard in and launch a few airstrikes at a few drug-dealer infested neighborhoods? That would be the way to get the message across that they have to stop the violence. Or would that be, I don't know, a disproportionate response?

Civilizations HAVE to decide whether they are going to rise above barbaric behavior or if they are going to embrace it. I will never understand how descending into brutal, murderous tactics will, over the long term, help either Israel or the United States.

[dorktv]

45. Oh there is plenty of blame to go around: Bush should have continued

what Clinton was doing, Israel should have just continued to put up with Hezbollah bombing them all the time while constantly sniping back, Hezbollah should have decided which is more important: the people they represent or killing Israelis, Lebanon should have asked for assistance to disarm that group, Iran should stop meddling with their neighbors... Lots of should haves and not a lot of "I will do this positive step to stop the deaths."

Lots of blame but I honestly WAS thinking this was an overaction on the part of Israel but too many people on here act like this is just some random thing that happened out of nowhere. Hezbollah was trying to escalate things and got more then it bargined for. From what I have seen in the history of Israel, they generally are pretty restrained (daily low level fighting that really does not go anywhere but does drain both sides) then they go completely ballistic after a period of time.

[Baselinereality]

83. Yeah, I Agree With You: Hezbollah DID

get more than they bargained for. But, actually, they can use that to their advantage. All of this bloodshed of innocent civilian life will, in the end, only increase Hezbollah's numbers. Hezbollah is carrying around an ideology that I don't believe Israel can simply bomb out of existence.

I am not an expert on diplomatic relations, but I do know that it would help the Bush administration to actually have some diplomats on the payroll if they were really serious about it. They haven't been interested in diplomacy from the day they moved into the White House.

And I also think that the Northern Ireland troubles could be used to great benefit in this situation: folding Hezbollah into the overall Lebanese democracy might have been a great idea. Give them power and control through the institution of government that we seem to love so much.

Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, though, and we all know how quickly Israel and the United States rejected them.

We cannot have it both ways like that! Even though Americans have a two-minute attention span, the rest of the world seems to pay attention for much longer than that. And when our President bleats on about wanting to instill democracy in the Middle East while doing everything to strangle and choke a democratically elected government, it looks bad!

Just because I think that this latest invasion of Lebanon was a mistake, that doesn't mean that Israel should have been forced to put up with constant badgering by Hezbollah and Hamas. But, the number of attacks on Israeli soil have diminished greatly in recent years. Israel doesn't really want to acknowledge that, though. What they like to say is, "Yeah, but what you don't know about are all the suicide bombers that we stop!" That's such a glass is half empty kinda attitude. "Yes, we've made progress in protecting ourselves from suicide bombers...but they still exist, so we have to invade Gaza!" And you know that that just pisses the Palestinians off more.

Someone on NPR recently stated the obvious, that the "state" of Israel hasn't been in any serious danger since the 1967 war.

But, I don't know.

We've all been focused on Iraq for the past four years....and most of us are idiots. Or, rather, we're not foreign policy experts. So, I think this latest Israeli thing took a lot of people by surprise and their natural jack-assed-ness is coming through. It's hard to find a dissenting voice in American government to the Israeli incursion, so I think it's hard for a lot of people to know how to construct their arguments. They know they don't like it, but they don't know why. Hence, our innate stupidity bubbles up to the surface.

Which is all the more reason for us to elect us some smart politician fellas. Not that they would be willing to oppose Israel three months before a general election, but you know what I'm saying.

[dorktv]

104. Most people in America do not look beyond our borders....kind of

hard to care about what happens in say Bolivia when it is so far away. And yes, when those people see this stuff and have no idea about the history of it, they tend to get on one side and when they are on that side and feel they are being attacked on their position.

There is a way out, it used to be that Israel had states to contend with, now they just have some militias. That as you said were stopping slowly. Maybe this is just the new Prime Minister feeling he has to do it get legitimacy, maybe it is just people being tired of the ceaseless low level war.

Who knows? Just feel that next Presidential Election, I may really move if the country elects another idiot like Bush.

[CTyankee]

124. Hezbollah does have representation in the Lebanese government

If I am not mistaken, they hold seats in the Parliament of that country. So, according to the theory you advance, now they have a seat at the table and can forswear violence. But they have that seat and yet started the attacks! Sadly, it seems to me that their hatred of a Jewish state in their region of the world is paramount. Nothing else matters but their hatred and desire to destroy Israel and kill or disperse the Jews there.

Do we wonder then why Israel fights back?

[Critters2]

60. Didn't Israel suddenly decide to bomb southern Lebanon?

[fooj]

78. I don't believe that this was sudden.

They illegally OCCUPIED So. Lebanon for 12 years. This was a long time in the making.

[CTyankee]

10. No kidding. I was beginning to wonder what had happened

to the DU I trusted and respected (for the most part). Sad to say, I've read some pretty horrendous anti-Israel remarks here. Part of it I attribute to a deeply felt revulsion against the violence taking place. I don't fault those people. But lately some are beginning to take the tack of "the hell with Israel" and of course that is just what the jihadists have been saying. One can disagree with Israel and not wish that they are destroyed as a nation, IMO. I'm saddened...

[Baselinereality]

15. I Haven't Read Anything On Hear These Past Few Days

That remotely suggests that Israel shouldn't "exist as a nation."

People who devoutly side with Israel on any and all action it takes should try to accept a little criticism now and then.

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. Well, WE have seen the posts.

I have yet to see ONE anti-Israel poster admit to seeing any nasty posts like calling for the annihalation of Isreal. THEY WERE HERE and MUCH, MUCH more.

[Baselinereality]

23. Well, I'll Have To Take Your Word For It...But I Don't Appreciate

the suggestion that I'm anti-Israel. I'm against the war that has been launched against Lebanon, period.

That doesn't make me anti-Israeli anymore than opposing the war in Iraq makes me anti-American.

Don't dip too quickly into the anti-semitic well, young (man? woman?) person. All you're doing is discrediting yourself by painting the opposition with that brush.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. Oh for crying out loud.

So, you support Israel?

[Baselinereality]

42. Support Them in What Capacity?

Why does everything have to be a 100% all or nothing in this day and age? You're either with us or against us.

Who BENEFITS from that kind of talk? I know--people who are incapable of nuanced thought.

YES, I support Israel's right to exist. I also believe in Palestine's right to exist. I also think that Israel needs to give the Golan Heights back to Syria.

So, what does that make me?

I am not one of the people that believes that all Arabs are demons, so I happen to think that maybe, just maybe, they have legitimate grievances now and again.

So, what does that make me?

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. Israel's right to exist.

Some here don't. I don't belive all Arabs are demons either, but they cannot continue their jihad to kill every Jew in Israel and expect hugs and kisses from Israel. They also refuse to acknowledge Israel as a sovereign nation. That little bit of info is never acknowledged here. They want to KILL EVERY JEW IN ISRAEL.

[Baselinereality]

74. Well, I Think It's Well Known, That Piece of Rhetoric.

There are diehard militants that do want to see Israel destroyed, that is true. I do not believe, however, that everyone in the Middle East shares that view.

It's a hopeless struggle between the Arab and the Jew. They are simply at each other's throats, afraid to let go for fear that the other will destroy them.

I have no idea how that type of suspicion is going to be resolved. But the fact that our president doesn't want the fighting to stop until a sustainable peace is achieved scares me even more.

But, anyway. All I can do is wait and see.

[in_cog_ni_to]

87. No, not everyone in the ME wants

EVERY JEW DEAD, just Hezbollah, Hamas and their followers.

I REALLY hate the fact that the idiot-in-chief is connected to this in ANY way. The man is truly psychotic.:(

[Baselinereality]

95. He Never Has A Moment of Doubt, Which Should Terrify Everyone.

Bush simply does not have the capacity to handle the complexities of the Middle East. History will look back and say it was a horrible twist of fate that he was in office on September 11th, 2001.

But, think back to all the potentially disastrous episodes in American history: the Civil War, WWII, the aftermath of WWII, the Cuban Missile Crisis. There were so many times in our past where, if the situation wasn't handled just so, it could have inexorably altered the very nature of our country. Our luck was bound to run out. We had a good run. Now we've got the most incompetent politician in the history of world leaders in charge when what we need is another Roosevelt or a Churchill. (Although, at this point I'd settle for a Wilson or a Coolidge.)

It's not even so much a question of whether or not America will recover from his disastrous presidency. Of course, I think we will, but at this point he is setting events in motion overseas that make us incredibly vulnerable to future attacks and future hatreds. And this from the man that swears he's "making us safer and keeping us safe."

Laura should do us all a favor and slip something in his drink. Or into his bologna sandwich. She really needs to step up to the plate.

[CTyankee]

126. You brought up WWII. I was thinking about it during the debate on

bombing cities. I hate to remind people about this but we (the U.S. and our allies)bombed a lot of Germany into rubble during that war. I'm thinking of the firebombing of Dresden and the leveling of Berlin in the final days of the 3rd Reich. Whatever way you paint that, civilians got killed or were displaced after their homes were taken out by our bombs. We deemed it appropriate because we felt we had to protect Europe against the Nazi takeover. Ditto of course for Japan (even worse as we used wmds).

Remember that in WWII we demanded unconditional surrender of both Germany and Japan.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Did she say anti-Semitic?

NOPE! YOU did! It was a pre-emptive strike on your part. Sounds like you are the one conflating.

On edit: Don't take her word for it...read: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1738732

[Baselinereality]

51. Thank You For Providing Evidence That An Anti-Semite Exists.

Out of the 92,724 registered users, thank you for showing me the anti-semitic viewpoints of one poster. It is true, then: anti-semitism exists. I thought it had been wiped out after WWII.

Nevertheless, it is incredibly dangerous and isolating and dare I say ignorant for ALL criticism of Israel to be lumped as anti-semitism. All that does is effectively censor legitimate grievances people have with the state of Israel. "Oh, God, I can't critisize them because they'll accuse me of being an anti-semite." Not only that, but it also exponentially adds to the already heightened sense of persecution the Israelis feel, which only makes them more defensive and more quick to lash out militarily against its so-called enemies.

If Israel wants to be considered a superpower (a title, might I add, that they hold simply because of the weaponry and aid that WE provide them) then they had better learn how to accept criticism.

But, what am I saying? This is the wrong time in American history to be having this type of discussion.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. There are more.

I find it very disturbing that posters, such as yourself, pretend it is not a problem. Then, when it is shown, you minimize it. I don't think any poster believes that members of StormFront are posting here at DU, but there are a few members here that engage in anti-Semitism, and that should not and is not tolerated at DU!

I also don't think that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. I would dare say most is not. However, to pretend that some of it is not based in Jew hate is incredibly naive and dangerous in its own right. This obsession that some have claiming there is no anti-Semitism here would be quickly squashed if just ONE moderator would come forward and say "Yes, there have been posts and threads deleted because they were anti-Semitic in nature!" Just because you haven't/can't/won't see it, doesn't mean it isn't real or doesn't exist!

[Baselinereality]

68. You've Got A Point...But My Main Focus Is To Attempt

To make sense of the unraveling of the Middle East at the hands of the Bush cartel.

Yes, of course, I know anti-semitism exists. And it never ceases to boggle my mind, that level of hate. Have you seen the "Protocols of Zion?" But, not being affiliated with any religion, I simply do not understand where it comes from. (Personally? I think Christians should be happy that Jesus was crucified, since they wouldn't have a religion without the resurrection. But, that's just me.) So, yeah, I probably do tend to minimize it, for two reasons: 1)It will never reach the same institutionalized levels of genocide as it did in Europe during the 1930's and 40's and 2)Because I do not think that the extreme haters on the fringes deserve any of my time.

Anti-semitism is not, in my mind, the problem here. But, maybe that's what you and people like yourself are trying to say: that these conflicts between the Arabs and Jews have everything to do with anti-semitism and nothing else. I tend to think it's a little bit more complicated than that.

In my mind, Bush & Cheney & Rice are using the IDF as another brigade in the United State Army to launch simultaneous attacks against two factions of terrorists, Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel is also tasked with the responsibility of dragging either Syria or Iran, or both, into the war. The United States, at this time, cannot launch a direct attack against Iran. But we really, really want to. However, if Iran attacks Israel overtly, we can certainly come to Israel's aid. And, if that multinational force is in place in southern Lebanon before that happens, there will be more of a chance that we will gain more allies. Not to mention we could finally settle the nuclear program debate in Iran once and for all.

So that's where I'm coming from.

I'm not interested in calling everyone who advocates for the destruction of Israel out for the idiot that they are, because I'm not looking for those types of discussions. I really don't know how much anti-semitism exists in this forum that advocates free and open thought, because I don't track it down. But, if it's coming out of the woodwork lately, that probably has everything to do with the fact that 20 days ago we didn't know that the next phase in the War on Terror was going to be launched from Israel. That doesn't make the idiots right--it just explains why they are popping up in larger numbers.

All I am trying to do is figure out if there is a way for the world to stand against the United States and Israel to get this madness to stop.

If I come across as anti-semitic myself, I apologize. I'm not, but I also don't back down from discussions just because someone might not like what I say. (I guess that makes me a little bit of a jerk.) Oh--and I'm really self-righteous. Oh! And I totally think I'm right all the time, which is reallllly annoying. But, I will tell you this: There are a lot of crazy, ignorant people on the planet, and this attack on Lebanon is not helping rid the world of anti-semitism, if you know what I mean.

Thanks for listening.

[DancingBear]

32. Then SOMEBODY must have saved them

Show them to us.

I haven't seen them, but rather than get labelled as (gasp!) anti-Israel (and we know what THAT"S code for now, dont we?) I will merely ask you to prove your assertion.

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. They were DELETED by the mods.

At least they have some decency.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1738732

[CTyankee]

82. You are right about criticism being leveled when necessary and I

agree. What I am talking about goes beyond that. It is more like "I used to feel sorry for Israel, now I don't care what happens to them." or "they should sink or swim."

I grew up in a different time. I lived in New York City in the late 1960s. I remember seeing people at Jones Beach with numbers tattooed on their arms. We had a different sensibility to people who had been in Nazi concentration camps.

That seems to be gone now. To me, it is unthinkable that Israel should not survive. And that is what I am talking about. Not the tactics now of Israel -- that can be discussed and taken care of -- but that the people writing about them are dismissing Israel as a nation. Suggest different tactics, of course, but dismiss the people of Israel in terms of their homeland?

I am saddened...

[Baselinereality]

90. Yeah, I Agree...

Now that some people in this thread have pointed out the "Israel needs to be wiped off the face of the earth" meme, it'll be one of those situations where I start to see it more and more. Whereas, two hours ago I swore that I never saw any clearly anti-semitic remarks.

But, it's all jack-assed-ness.

Now, that type of fear can get decent people into a world of trouble, so I suppose it needs to be taken seriously. But, I really do believe that it would disappear very quickly if we only had leaders in this country that had a decent, respectful viewpoint of foreign policy.

Bush & Co. doesn't believe in peace, it's that simple. They see opportunities galore in the chaos that is raging throughout the Middle East. Not only that, but they can stand in front of us and talk about how proud we should be for bringing democratic government to the Middle East...while every country we touch reverts into civil war.

It also doesn't help that Fundamentalist Christians are now playing an enormous role in national government. There is too much of a theocratic undertone to parts of this unmitigated disaster that is going on in the Middle East for my comfort.

Now, I don't know if some of this backlash against Israel stems from that religious, End of Days ignorance, or from the frustration with it, I don't know.

But it's hard for the unwashed masses to remain rational, with the ability to discuss things in even, non-harmful tones while the President of the United States stands there and advocates more war and bloodshed and dead babies because he doesn't want a "fake" peace. Somebody has got to explain to me how that makes ANY sense.

[CTyankee]

101. Thanks, I was beginning to feel outnumbered

I am in total agreement with you about this administration. I have never seen such arrogance and incompetence. Never before have i seen a Sec. of State told to NOT darken the door of an ally's country! This is a travesty!

I am not Jewish but my 3 granddaughters are Jewish and so are my stepchildren (grown). My heart is with the Israeli people. I do not think they are bloodthirsty murderers who want to commit genocide on the Lebanese or any one else. They want to survive as a country and are forced to fight nasty, vicious wars.

I want another way for Israel and for the U.S. Our country is pretty much a lost cause until we can take back the HOuse and the Senate and then the WH in 08. Til then, we are so screwed...

[Baselinereality]

105. I Hope There Are Changes After the Elections.

I oppose the policy of the invasion of Lebanon. People all over the world want to live in peace and raise their children and live in safety. That's the one thing that we seem to have in common, from America to Zaire. But, in the end, that seems to be the least important piece of the puzzle. I don't want the people of Israel to die, and I don't want the Lebanese to die. I know people from both countries.

I oppose the policy of the invasion of Lebanon, though, because I believe that it is being masterminded in Washington by Bush & Co. as the next phase in the War on Terror. And, despite all of Israel's very justified reasons for launching their attacks, the simple truth is that it's only going to make the situation so much worse for them--and us.

I wish we had a President who believed in the power of dialog. I wish we had a foreign policy team that was utilizing our power to promote peace through cooperation and negotiation and understanding and respect. I wish we had a President that wasn't so filled with rage and hate over 9/11 that he has foregone any desire to deal fairly with any other country on the planet.

He once said years ago "you're either with us or against us." Well, five years later, it appears that everyone is against us.

I wonder how much war we have to endure before we start to believe in the power of peace again? It's looking to me like it's gonna be at least a generation.

But, anyway.

Thanks for listening.

[robbedvoter]

98. A wildely popular thread - on the "best" page - 13 recs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1769964

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Yes. This is a very sad time in DU's history.

:(

[dorktv]

33. It is as if they only can see the children that Hezbollah hides among

rather then the fact that this group hides among children! How evil is that? To USE children as a shield.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. I know.

It's so damn sad and twisted.

[MichiganVote]

64. As of yesterday when the children were shields for H. they were alive

It was Israel's choice to bomb them. For shame. Child after child pulled from the rubble. If they were Israeli children I would feel the same so don't bring out the anti-semite stuff.

This is wrong, deadly and dangerously wrong.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MichiganVote]

73. Could be. I think the world has forgotten what humanity means...

[Name removed]

79. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dorktv]

107. Hezbollah had a choice too. They chose to use babies as their shields.

[MichiganVote]

117. Some shield.....a child. Pathetic.

[dorktv]

121. it is wrong, it is evil and I cannot understand why anyone would do that.

Children should not suffer for what the adults do around them.

[Baselinereality]

96. Actually, That's Not Quite the Point At All...

The way I see it, since it is a known fact that Hezbollah battles among civilians, Israel should do everything she can to AVOID all out war. Because guess who looks bad when innocent Lebanese children appear dead on our television screens? It is precisely because Hezbollah hides among civilians why Israel should use extreme caution when launching wars of this nature. Because they have to ask themselves: can they afford the bad publicity? Is it WORTH IT? And I would suggest to you, Dork, that the kidnapping of two soldiers and the deaths of 6 or 7 others is NOT worth this. Because certainly now no one in the Middle East cares that Israel was just trying to defend herself.

So, instead of the situation being better for Israel than it was three weeks ago, it's now a helluva lot worse.

I hope you can see that I am not supporting Hezbollah with this viewpoint. I am simply trying to point out that the risks for Israel far far far outweighed any gains they thought they might make.

And if someone other than determined right-wing hawks and ideologues ran the United States government, that might have been effectively explained to them three weeks ago.

[dorktv]

106. If someone other then right wing nutcases ran America there may

have been more effort to stop Hezbollah six years ago.

I think that Israel does feel it is worth it, because Hezbollah could then say "look, Israel is a bunch of pansies, they will not even react when we do XYZ..." and then step up attacks.

I agree that Israel should be more careful but why do they have to always be the ones blamed when the bad guys hide among the innocent?

No good choices, no good answers...that is what this is.

[Baselinereality]

110. Yeah, There's a Definite Damned If You Do Damned If You Don't

quality to all of this.

And, even though you were probably just being rhetorical, they are "always" blamed when the bad guys hide among the innocent because they're the ones that are killing the children. And they have huge, powerful, laser-guided missiles and drone aircraft and spy satellites.

With guerrilla warfare there will very rarely be any successes in Israel's basket. What is that old saying? The guerrillas don't have to win to win, they simply have to survive.

But, the United States currently doesn't want to talk to Hezbollah, or Hamas, or Syria or Iran. And now our relationship with Lebanon itself is in question. I honestly can't see how we're supposed to fix this situation when we're not talking to anyone. So, ultimately, along with risking WWIII, George Bush is isolating America and making us irrelevant on the world stage. I mean, FRANCE is gonna step up and negotiate this thing? France? C'mon. I think we should invade them next. Uppity cheese-eaters.

[dorktv]

112. Maybe we can finally stop being considered the world's policeperson?

Sigh...I hate death and destruction and I hate people who use it to score political points. I am going to go live with Bonobos...who is with me?

[Baselinereality]

114. LOL--Good Luck With That. Is That Bono's Island Or Sumpin?

I recently read "The Sex Lives of Savages" by J. Marten Troost--it'll be a never before I pack a bag for a tropical island.

Highly recommend the book--it was a hilarious read.

And I just hope that America will remember how great America was in leading the world between WW II and 9/11. Hopefully, we can get back into that groove, although history suggests that once power and respect has been surrendered, it is impossible to regain them.

This challenge will make us stronger.

Either that or it'll kill us all.

We should be fine.

[dorktv]

115. Oh we will eventually be on top again or maybe we will have one global

government and live in spaceships...who knows?

[rockymountaindem]

111. Wow. Great quote dorktv

That exactly describes what some of these posters have been doing.

[QuestionAll...]

44. a lot more sadder for Lebanese history.

we're just throwing around words here, with some misses and mistakes, not pulverizing human beings to pink sprays.

[dorktv]

47. Eventually it will stop...because it always does.

but then it starts up again...:( sigh

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. n/t

[QuestionAll...]

72. right.

I would rather talk about things than blow up things.
but that's just me.

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. Easy for someone to say when they're sitting here in the good old

USA and not in Israel.

[QuestionAll...]

86. I wouldn't be blowing things up if I were an Israeli, either.

are you? would you?

I'm not sure what you mean, actually.

[in_cog_ni_to]

89. your post

I would rather talk about things than blow up things.
but that's just me.

and I responded that it's easy to say if you're sitting here in the good old USA. Meaning, not having rockets flying at you every day. Not having to worry about suicide bombers. Not having to worry about whether or not the next person you see on the street is one that wants to kill you 'for the cause' (Jihad).

[QuestionAll...]

91. I don't live in the US, just to let you know.

and being in Lebanon right now would be a tad more dangerous, or haven't you read?

regardless, I wouldn't be a part of pink misting anyone. and I will continue to speak against it.
twist all you like, I know where I stand and have some good company.

[in_cog_ni_to]

94. I didn't know you weren't in the U.S.

Yes, Lebanon is more dangerous AS IS ISRAEL.

[dorktv]

27. From a friend who is from Jordan "well basically everyone has accepted

Israel. We have just decided to live with them."

Talking about the nations who have to deal with the country. They do not want or like Israel but they are tired of the death.

[LostinVA]

113. Nothing wrong with criticizing Israel

I would like to know when the hell criticizing the actions of a sovereign nation against another became a bad thing on DU??? The Israeli government isn't sacrosant... they don't have a special pass from criticism. The only baiting and disgusting posts I've seen on here have been from a bunch of semi-crazed warmongers.

[MyNameGoesHere]

12. ZZZZZZZZZ n/t

[k_jerome]

14. it is part of their scheme to grab more land...

the zionists that is. gotta make sure you say zionists.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

77. Somebody had the audacity to say that?

That's pretty freakin' ugly. How about the lady who inserts "USrael" where "Israel" should be? :eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. Oh YES, someone posted that and it was on the very first thread

I went to this morning. It gave me a real good idea of what THIS day on DU would be like and I was right. The USrael is just stupid. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

37. Both of them, maybe. n/t

[DistressedAmerican]

100. HELLO! It was the blame of Israel for their criminal actions that have

led to this. If we all said nothing, they would not even have this tiny 48 hours. Which in the end mean nothing if they are going to resume the carnage shortly.

Total unconditional cease fire. That is peace. this is a response to the very pressure you decry. Get a grip. they did not stop on their own. They were stopped.

[dorktv]

108. So in your opinion Israel should just take all the bombing, the snipers

the constant attacks by anyone who wants to because after all those people attacking Israel are among the innocent.

Regardless of the fact that those who hide among the innocent are cowards who know that the rest of the world will pressure Israel to not hurt anyone because they will kill the innocent while trying to take out the bad guys.

The bad guys win if Israel responds, the bad guys win if Israel does not. There are not good choices, no good answers.

[Poll_Blind]

120. Disturbing thought process behind your post. n/t

PB

[QuestionAll...]

6. well look who stick out like sore thumbs...

Washington continues to oppose calling for an immediate ceasefire at the UN.

President George W Bush said the US wanted "to develop a resolution that will enable the region to have a sustainable peace, a peace that lasts, a peace that will enable mothers and fathers to raise their children in a hopeful world".

The Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, has expressed regret at the killing of civilians in Qana, but said he would not call an end to the bombardment of Lebanon.

==
I am glad there is a ceasefire, but this shit shouldn't have come down to begin with.

[Baselinereality]

8. Our President Is, I Believe, The First World Leader To Suggest

that sustainable peace can only be achieved through continual (or is it 'continuous'?) fighting. Well, the first world leaders outside of Oceania.

And I don't think this IS a ceasefire: they've simply agreed to halt the bombing campaign for 48 hours while they investigate. That doesn't say anything about what their ground forces are going to be doing.

[Moochy]

52. Peace through war

Exactly. The pause in the bombing is a good development. But how about in 48 hours when it resumes? How will we feel then?

[malaise]

9. The rest of the world has a different view

so fugg him. Israel was accused of genocide at the UN Security Meeting today and I'm trying to find the link with scathing comments from world leaders. I heard a summary of them on BBC.

[Totally Committed]

11. Thank goodness! What good news!!!

I hope they use it to get all of the civilians out of southern Lebanon.

TC

[uppityperson]

13. reuters link

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30377720.htm

along with this one too about rebombing road to Damascus.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30467694.htm

[malaise]

16. So they stopped bombing the South

and are bombing the road to Damascus. I pause to :puke: :puke:

[uppityperson]

19. I think simultaneously, word needs to get sent to military

[malaise]

30. Why has Israel changed its story re Qana

and is now saying it made a mistake.

[uppityperson]

31. I haven't heard this. Thought they were "investigating"

[QuestionAll...]

41. the mistake is they may be forced to investigate themselves.

sure a hella lot of 'mistakes'.
I think those US taxpayer war machines are rather dud-ish, don't you?
or is it the poor military training?

strange how there are so many mistakes, isn't it?

[malaise]

57. So did I but I heard someone on CNN

with that.

We'll see if Bill Bennett was right with his 'give war a chance'.

By the way is Condi Rice the first Secretary of State in history to be told not to come to a country by a 'friendly' government. Bushco is a clusterfuck.

[QuestionAll...]

61. but she said She postponed or cancelled.

lol.
big fat liar.

[malaise]

75. Her mistake is that we

saw Siniora on TV early this morning saying that unless she was coming with an immediate ceasefire she should not come. She is an absolute disgrace.

[QuestionAll...]

76. yes, I caught that myself, tossing and turning on the couch

early this morning.

but this afternoon, CNN seems to have forgotten that little tidbit.

[fooj]

85. I saw it, too.

He said..."It was NOT the day to talk". He said it. It was HIS call.

Good thing. They would have ripped her to shreds had she shown her face.

[uppityperson]

54. I was wrong, stopped bombing the south.

srael will also coordinate with the United Nations to allow a 24-hour window for residents of southern Lebanon to leave the area if they wish, State Department spokesman Adam Ereli told a briefing in Jerusalem.

While suspending aerial activity, Ereli made clear that Israel had the right to "take action against targets preparing attacks against it", reiterating U.S. policy that the Jewish state has the right to defend itself against attack.

"Israel has agreed to a 48-hour suspension of aerial activity in south Lebanon to investigate today's tragic incident in Qana," said Ereli.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30574423.htm

not Gaza either http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29523493.htm

[Monkeyman]

17. DON't anybody think its going to stop its only 48 hours

[malaise]

53. Actually they're now saying it's 24 hours

WTF. Meanwhile Blair appears to be in serious trouble at home. He's now making statements with Merkel talking about for the "urgency of the need for a ceasefire as soon as possible".
Of course this is merely the clever use of words. Nothing but Immediate Ceasefire matters to the rest of the planet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5229920.stm
Sp.

[OneTwentyoNine]

24. Ahh crap!! Just when the Industrial Military complex was

really gearing up for some more HUGE sales of weapons to Israel. Bush better light some fires and get the bombs and missles flying so his corporate asswipes don't have to call him up. War makes rich men richer....

[malaise]

93. You win

They are still using artillery fire says John Roberts. They've stopped the aerial attacks for now.

[spanone]

25. Good start. How many have to die for 72 hours?

[blonndee]

50. Only on "southern Lebanon" while Qana killing is investigated

Israel halts attacks for 48 hours
Airstrike killing dozens of civilians called a 'mistake'

Sunday, July 30, 2006; Posted: 5:32 p.m. EDT (21:32 GMT)

QANA, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel has agreed to suspend airstrikes on southern Lebanon for 48 hours to investigate a Sunday airstrike that killed more than 60 people in Qana, Lebanon, a U.S. State Department spokesman said.

Spokesman Adam Ereli said the Israelis reserve the right to take action against targets preparing attacks against it during the 48-hour period, but the bombing halt should "significantly speed and improve the flow of humanitarian aid." Israeli officials also agreed to allow safe passage for 24 hours for residents of southern Lebanon to leave the region.

Israel earlier said it mistakenly destroyed a four-story building near a Hezbollah rocket-launching site. The dead included 37 children, according to Lebanese internal security officials.

It was the deadliest attack in 19 days of fighting between Hezbollah militia and Israeli forces, which began after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid.

full story at http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/30/mideast.main/index.html

[malaise]

58. Thanks for that link. n/t

[Breeze54]

63. Good!! It's being announced on the "World News - ABC", right now

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=123&art_id=qw1154294820574M323

Israel suspends air strikes for 48 hours

July 30 2006 at 11:35PM

Jerusalem -

Israel has suspended air strikes in southern Lebanon for 48 hours while it investigates the
Qana bombings, an aide to American Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said early on Monday.

"Israel has agreed to a 48-hour suspension of aerial activity in south Lebanon,
while it investigates today's tragic incident in Qana,"
spokesperson Adam Ereli told reporters just after midnight following talks
between Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and top Israeli officials.

Israel would also co-ordinate with the United Nations on a 24-hour period
of "safe passage" for civilians who wish to leave the area, Ereli said.

"Israel has, of course, reserved the right to take action against targets preparing
attacks against it," Ereli told reporters travelling with Rice.

"During this time, Israel will coordinate with the United Nations to allow a 24-hour
period of safe passage for all residents of south Lebanon who wish to leave," Ereli added.

The suspension of air strikes starts immediately, a senior State Department official later
said on condition of anonymity, adding that the 24-hour safe passage could be renewed once
it expires.

[MichiganVote]

66. ABC: Israel has given civlians 24 hours to leave Lebanon

Israel telling others they need two more weeks to cripple H.

[malaise]

88. Clearly not to leave Lebanon

Even Israel could not demand that. Israel asked UNIFIL to move the residents from two towns and Kofi said the UN does not have the required resources.(on CNN) They want UN complicity in their war crimes. Kofi asked the United Nations Security Council to condemn Israeli bombing of a Lebanese village which left at least 56 dead and called for immediate cease fire.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200607310312.htm

[The Witch]

65. Thank god....

Thank god for every moment of peace on this earth....

[mogster]

67. Great!

Pay heed to this:

"Washington continues to oppose calling for an immediate ceasefire at the UN."

No false peace for Bush, that may be the anti-christ.

[gully]

70. PLEASE let the suspension continue!!!

Awesome news.

[Rex]

84. Good!

Now Hezbollah needs to stop firing missiles at Israel and we're getting somewhere!

For those of you that think this is a joke...Israel has the compunction of bombing, but will continue to bomb Lebanon until no buildings remain...so yes this is a big step, let us not just gloss over this act.

[saracat]

97. I wish everyone on DU would just STOP it! Both Israel and Hisbollah

are wrong. This action should not be defended by either side. Israel, being the better armed and civilzed nation has a greater responsibility to not act disproportionately. Israel has the right to exist and defend itself. Lebanon has a right not to be used as a pawn between Israel and Hisbollah.The biggest failure here is the US. We are to blame for having had NO ME policey. God knows what can be done now. A cease fire is only part of the equation. I think a multinational force should move in and take over Lebanon, or would that lead to WW3?

[Baselinereality]

102. Probably.

It would probably lead to WW III. Because when Israel launched the subsequent attack against Syria, what would the multinational force have to do?

Not only that, but I don't know how I feel about setting up an international force into an existing war zone. Would Hezbollah start attacking them? Would Danish soldiers have to kill Lebanese citizens then? Why should some Polish soldier have to kill Lebanese citizens? I don't even know that, prior to this three week nightmare, if the problems on the Lebanese/Israeli border required international intervention. Was Israel begging for help from the U.N. before they launched their attack?

Simply on the basis that George Bush & Condi Rice were the ones to suggest a multinational force make me highly suspicious of its purpose and its effectiveness. If they're suggesting it, it's certainly not to promote peace. George wants to grind Hezbollah, along with Hamas and Al-Qaeda, into the dust.

Lebanon had a very weak, albeit democratically elected, new government. They didn't have enough power to dislodge Hezbollah, nor would they really want to, as Hezbollah provided many important social services and offered a layer of protection against invasion that the Lebanese felt that they needed. Of course, they dragged the entire country into this conflict, and I'm sure that the Lebanese hate that. But, at this point, after Israel has destroyed their country, I don't think Hezbollah is going to get the lion's share of the public's wrath.

[jonnyblitz]

125. "Israel has a right to defend itself."

boy am I sick of hearing that excuse for their invading a country and slaughtering innocent people. both sides ARE NOT equally to blame anymore. People like you who try to make light of these atrocities by equalizing blame are the ones that need to STOP IT!!!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

99. 48 business hours or 48 regular hours?

Its important that we get this right ahead of time, this time

:)

[tabasco]

116. Based on the results of their air strikes to date.

A civilized country would suspend air strikes indefinitely.

The civilian killed rate is just too fucking high!!

Please Israel - set an example for the world - - not the opposite!!

[Disturbed]

119. Seems like the Israeli Govt. does not want anyone living in

Southern Lebanon. They might be planning on turning a 15 sq. area into rubble after this cease fire.

[otherlander]

118. K&R....Thank god (nt)

[entanglement]

122. Someone must have threatened to stop the $$$ to the Israelites

Notice Blair's statement "Qana changed things..."

[dweller]

123. okay, so that means by Tuesday

MSM-CON will be back to covering missing blonde girls?

dp