Answer me this: If they drop leaflets to the general public in Lebanon

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

telling them they are about to destroy their village in order to kill the people launching rockets at Israel...

Do the Israelis think that Hizbolah can't read?

Or do they think that the rest of the world is so fucking stupid that they won't notice how fucking stupid the leaflet thing really is?

[havocmom]

1. Guess the poor & working class in Lebanon are as foolish

as all those poor people in NOLA who also didn't have the resources to get out of the way when that hurricane was coming at them :sarcasm:

Of all the different groups in villages in Lebanon, seems Hizholah was the group most likely to have transportation out.

[Ilsa]

15. All we need is for that bitch to go over there and mention how much

better off they are now, like she did in the Astrodome.

[havocmom]

17. Doubt the Queen Mother #*@%er even knows it's happening

Her widdle boy got the clueless gene and the I-don't-give-a-shit gene from somewhere. He has his daddy's eyes.

[smacky44]

29. If you are already hiding in the basement, you won't get a flyer.

And should any nation just because it has the weapons drop leaflets on a virtually helpless nation and tell them they are about to bomb the hell out of them so get out your country and leave to us?

[MichiganVote]

2. They don't think and they don't care- period

[EFerrari]

3. Cheap CYA. Shameful. n/t

[Lerkfish]

4. if anything, it appears to be warning Hezbollah to leave

so they can have clear shots of remaining civilians.

OF the two, who would be most able to leave? Hezbollah or citizens?

[Jade Fox]

5. Do you have any, ANY evidence to back this up?

Because that is one hateful, ugly comment.

[Lerkfish]

7. I'll tell you what's hateful and ugly

34 dead children.


now, back to my post, I said it "appears" , using logic, that warning civilians would, if Hezbollah is indeed hiding among civilians, would also warn Hezbollah, and then I said, of the two, who would have the best ability to get away.

I'm using logic, not evidence. Feel free to tear apart my "hateful ugly" logic.

[abluelady]

12. I Think It Works the Opposite Way

If the population can't leave, because of poverty, etc., it enables Hezbollah to prepare for the attacks. But then that doesn't make sense....

[Lerkfish]

31. none of this makes sense, IMHO

all the killing must stop. It accomplishes nothing except begetting more killing.

[msmcghee]

6. If you knew that someone was going to . .

. . drop bombs around your town, you'd find a way to get out.

Unless, someone wanted you to stay so Israel would be accused of killing civilians. Maybe Hizbollah told the civilians not to worry, they'd fight the Israelis off.

Or maybe, some of those civilains were family members of the Hizbollah who were firing the missiles and had established these positions over the last several years and probably were considered to be citizens of the area.

Or maybe, some of them thought they could weather the storm - just like many in New Orleans foolishly did.

Or, maybe if you were Christian the Hizbollah wouldn't let you leave.

Lots of possibilities for why some didn't leave. But, if I though my child's life was in danger there would be nothing that could keep me from taking my child away from there. To say they couldn't afford it is silly, naive and disingenuous. I'd crawl if I had to - and you would too if your child's life was in danger.

I've seen no credible evidence that Israel intentionally targeted civilians. I did see Shimon Perez express great sorrow in the civilian deaths this morning on Face the Nation. I have heard no regrets from the Hizbollah scum who intentionally send missiles indiscriminately into Israel cities and towns hoping to kill civilians - and hoping to start a major war in the ME.

Anyone who doesn't mention the missiles sent to kill Israeli civilians - but who calls Israel fascists and RW warmongers for trying to take out the missile launch sites in their own defense - is simply a partisan in this war and has chosen sides.

[Lerkfish]

8. what color is the sky in your world?

because blaming the victims is wearing pretty thin in this world.

[msmcghee]

10. How can you possibly get from my post . .

. . that I blame the civilian victims? You suggested they stayed because they couldn't afford to leave. I offered some more plausible reasons why they may have chosen to stay or were possibly forced to stay.

The blame belongs squarely on Hizbollah who kidnapped an Israeli soldier and fired missiles into Israel - both war crimes. The civilians are innocent IMO unless they voluntarily assisted the Hizbollah fighters and sheltered them. I think that's possible - but if they were warned two days in advance and they obviously knew that Hizbollah was firing missiles from inside their town - then that relieves Israel of blame IMO - whether the civilians share any of that blame or not. (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence to the contrary.)

The color of my sky is gray today and drizzly.

[Lerkfish]

18. so, Isreal is completely relieved of blame in your opinion.

this is why we live in different worlds. To you, ONLY hezbollah or the citizens are to blame for their own slaughter.
In my world, I see blame everywhere, but Israel was the only one of those three that was a UN charter member.

[msmcghee]

23. Yes, and Israel was respecting the UN border . .

. . that was drawn when Israel left Lebanon after the last war made necessary by attacks from surrogates in south Lebanon.

In my world it is important to blame acts of aggression on those who initiate them . . . not on those who are defending their borders and their citizens from attack.

Without that basic understanding of national sovereignty - and the willingness for the world to enforce those rules (even when the act of aggression is against a nation that you personally despise - Israel) - there will be perpetual war on Earth.

Many on the left who claim to love peace really have no idea what is really required to honor the notion of peace as a national and personal responsibility - and not simply use it as a political slogan as many here do.

[Lerkfish]

30. "Many on the left who claim to love peace"

*raises hand* Yep, I'm on the left and I claim to love peace.....er...what does that make you by contrast?

I"m pretty sure my version of peace is the same one God was thinking of: you know, the NONwar peace.

[Karmakaze]

27. Utter BULLSHIT!

Capturing UNIFORMED SOLDIERS is NOT a war crime! Killing uniformed soldiers in battle is NOT a war crime, nor is it terrorism!

The closest you came to an accurate statement was the thing about firing missiles into civillian areas, and that's the LAST thing Israel wants called a war crime.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

11. I'll have to disagree with you here, Israel has bigger, better toys...

They are a cohesive government and ought to know better. Hezbolah is NOT Lebanon. The targeting of sites which will kill more civilians than the bad guys is heinous no matter WHO does it (US included).

Israel has been posturing and feeding off their own rep and ego since Entebbe and I'm afraid that they may have just written a check they can't cash and stand a chance of an international quorum that will assure they don't do it again.

OT, if the Neocons get another 4 years here, I would fear the same possible scenario for America.

You may be a bad ass, but when the town where you live has had enough of you, they will usually figure out a way to get rid of you. (metaphor... not YOU) :)

[msmcghee]

13. I have read other pragmatic views like yours.

Perhaps you are right and I am being naive.

However, I can't imagine how the IDF could possibly meter their efforts in the way that many here seem to expect. I've never been in war but I would think that it would be very difficult to dislodge terrorists dressed like civilians with mobile weapons launchers moving around inside a populated city - without damaging any civilians that remained in that city.


It seems to me that's the purpose of the Hizbollah tactics - to fire missiles that invite air strikes that are bound to kill civilians and enflame world opinion against Israel.

Common sense tells me that it's to Hizbollah's great advantage when Lebanese civilians are killed. It also tells me that Israel has everything to lose and nothing to gains from civilian Lebanese deaths.

If I was the Israeli general I'd guess that I'd drop leaflets warning everyone that some necessarily indiscriminate bombing was likely to occur in their town - and then do my best to avoid hitting civilians that I knew did not leave. That seems to be what happened.

I think the jury is still out on how those civilians were killed.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

16. The problem is that the citizenry looks at the one that fired the gun

that shot the baby and will not go past that. This logic is pretty apparent and should/is? relized by both. Israel could garner a strong defense mode and bring in defensive missiles like the Patriots we used in GW1 and world opinion would be with them. They chose to kick ass and take names on a relatively defensless country. Bad thing.

[msmcghee]

19. I understand your view . .

However, I raised the Patriot missile question before here at DU. I was told that the Patriots are designed for ballistic missiles coming in at a high angle and speed. These are cheap unguided fire-and-forget-it battlefield tactical missiles that come in at a relatively low angle and speed. They are more like artillery shells with a bottle-rocket assist. They don't do nearly as much damage as a scud but are relatively impervious to the expensive Patriot missiles and the multi-million dollar radar guidance installations that accompany them.

That's what some folks here at DU said anyway who sounded like they knew what they were talking about.

I suspect that if Israel had a defense system that would work on these battlefield missiles they'd prefer to use it. I think it's unlikely that they simply . . chose to kick ass and take names on a relatively defenseless country . . as you say, if they had a less lethal defense that would result in fewer IDF casualties.

But I could be wrong. Can you substantiate your view? Have you come across any experts commenting on this question? I'd like to understand this better.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

22. I'm no munitions expert, but I have heard that some of the missiles

coming in are Scud-like and many that have hit are filled with ball bearings which while nasty are fairly low tech compared to what Israel has access to.

IMHO, the whole thing could have been a non event if Israel had negotiated about the kidnapping rather than gone in the way they did.

It's a moot point now though.

[msmcghee]

24. Even if Isreal's Patriot missiles could . .

. . hit those guys - I'm sure Israel only posseses a small fraction of the Patriots that would be required against the hundreds of missiles that Hizbollah is firing every day. I suspect that Isreal has no more than a few dozen patriots at most. Those are very expensive systems - that don't work worth a damn anyway - even on the ICBM's they were designed to hit.

[flyarm]

20. msnbc stated numerous times this morn no leaflets were dropped

in the town of QADA..period the end!!

i have posted this over and over today..did no one but me see and hear this repeated all morning ???????????????

fly

[Karmakaze]

26. Unless of course the same people were bombing anything that moved...

on the roads.

In fact, I believe that is what the leaflet drops are for - to get Hizbollah to come out of hiding and attempt to leave the area. Then they bomb anything on the road and if no-one complains, voila they just killed terrorists! If someone DOES complain it was an unfortunate accident, unavoidable in a time of war, so sorry.

[QuestionAll...]

9. the latter. Obviously the world really is that fucking stupid. nt

[xultar]

14. Telling people to leave seems to mean...we're gonna destroy all

civilian infrastructure.

Which is a war crime.

[boston bean]

21. I watched Wolf Blitzer today and he was asking many Israeli's if they were

going to leave Northern Israel. Each and everyone of them responded that they wouldn't. Why? Because where would they go, they each responded.

How easy it is to understand that when it's Israeli's, but not very understandable when it's arabs/lebanese.

[Karmakaze]

28. Not to mention the fact that VERY FEW of them have been killed..

The rate has been about one Israeli civillian death per day. I'm not surprised they don't feel much urgency to leave.

[Karmakaze]

25. No, they KNOW Hizbullah can read, which is why...

they bomb anything that does actually try to leave...

[Philosoraptor]

32. Its ridiculous.

Its probably just another way to terrorize folks.