The "hiding among civilians" myth

[Emit]

Have we discussed this yet? Is there a distinction between the Hezbollah fighters and the Hezbollah political members? Is there a distinction between the Hezbollah fighters and the civilians who work in the social systems associated with Hezbollah? Should there be?

I caught some news coverage today -- Not having watched a great deal of coverage lately, the big thing that struck me from going between CNN and Fox today was this issue, being pushed heavily, of "Hezbollah hiding among civilians." It is repeated over and over and over -- to justify the killing of civilians and to project blame upon Hezbollah or even the civilians themselves because they didn't leave when they were told to go. When they were told to go. Can you imagine?

I struggle with these issues. Rationalizing the death of children -- of the elderly, of the defenseless. Can it really ever be rationalized? Excused? Is it an honest excuse? Or an acceptable excuse? Is it even true?

The "hiding among civilians" myth

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
By Mitch Prothero

Jul. 28, 2006 | The bombs came just as night fell, around 7 p.m. The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war. The landlord had refused to rent to Hezbollah when they requested the top floors of the building. No matter, the locals said, the Hezb guys just moved in anyway in the name of the "resistance."

Everyone knew that the building would be hit eventually.

~snip~

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

~snip~

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

~snip~

COnt'd: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/print.html

[smacky44]

1. DO NOT let them shout you down or cower you behind charges of

anti-semitism. That's how they stifle debate, communication, and discussion. But the truth is slowly coming out because Israel is not able to kill everyone in the area of their bombings. Qana is a wake up call to Christians who believe that they are on the morally right side by defending Israel blindly.
It is neither "Christian" or even the humanly morally right thing to do.

[cool user name]

2. Israel has a right to defend herself.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

:sarcasm:

[jonnyblitz]

12. you were scaring me for a second.

:hi:

[cool user name]

30. In this crazy world ...

One has to have a healthy dose of sarcasm pills to get by.

:toast:

[Turbineguy]

3. Is it a myth?

During the conflict in the 80's it was standard practice to put anti-aircraft batteries next to schools and on top of or next to hospitals. This is according to Robert Fisk.

If the Hezbollah does all these wonderful things for people (which I accept they do) why do they need a military wing? Or could it be they perform all these social services as a loss leader to obtain funding for their military operation?

(no accusations of anti-semitism from me.)

[spindrifter]

4. How much of Lebanon is unpopulated, i.e.,

apparently "suitable" for military action?

[Truthiness Inspector]

5. Even the UN Humanitarian Chief

Jan Egeland states that Hezbollah hides amongst civilians. Sorry, but one Salon article can't undo the evidence (photos, videos) to the contrary.

[papau]

15. The UN saying it is not a myth will not shake some on DU from support for

the Hez Terrorists over Israel.

[Emit]

18. "DU support for the Hez Terrorists over Israel"?

Is that what you think, honestly?

[papau]

23. DU has sympathy-legitimately- for Lebanese victims -but much of DU

having no information other than Hez statements - assumes Israel lies, Israel trying to harm civilians, Israel evil, while it doesn't "see" Hez as terrorist, as liars, as trying to kill all Jews that "pollute" the mid-east, as on purpose attacking civilian populations via missiles aimed at these populations with no attempt to aim them at army barracks in those areas.

If those folks on DU do see Hez as terrorist - celebrating civilian deaths, it still is given the same moral value as Israel - which has never celebrated civilian deaths.

The disproportionate argument, which I myself agree with and put forth and use to criticize Israel- does not in itself, IMHO, make anyone on DU into someone favoring Hez.

But the other crap does.

[Phx_Dem]

36. why did you call them "fighters" instead of terrorists?

I sure don't want to assume anything. Interesting choice of words though.

[Emit]

37. I used the same term the author of the article that I posted used. n/t

[QuestionAll...]

6. 100s of civilians have been killed by Israel...

and Hezbollah still considers using them as 'shields' for their safety?

I don't think so. I think they would have figured out that that just ain't working as so many civilian structures have been bombed.

or are Hezobollah as stupid as some of us buying this latest load of tripe.

[Truthiness Inspector]

8. It's not a safety issue

Hezbollah doesn't hide amongst civilians to ensure their own safety, they do it to maximize civilian deaths to cause a backlash against Israel, and it apparently works very well. They want to be able to fire off rocket after rocket while relishing the international community trying to tie Israel's hands behind her back as she takes a beating, prevented from responding against the targets of the attacks.

[QuestionAll...]

9. so where are the dead Hezbollah bodies among the carnage?

why haven't we seen any of them being carted away like the dead kids and their families?
do they evaporate or something?

[Truthiness Inspector]

11. A couple of things

First of all, Hezbollah does hide amongst civilians.

Secondly, Hezbollah members have indeed been killed. The number is in dispute because it is not in Hezbollah's best interest to truthfully report the number of Hezbollah killed - more sympathy is garnered by inflating civilian deaths (as well as causing them in the first place).

[QuestionAll...]

13. so Israel has no proof that they 'got their man'...

theyr'e just guessing or hoping...

maybe they should have just dropped a few on the demonstrators today in Lebanon. Would maybe have snagged a few... afterall whevever their are civilians, there's Hezbollah.

:sarcasm:

[Truthiness Inspector]

14. Your response

is a prime example of screwing up constructive discourse and discussion here.

[QuestionAll...]

17. I find nothing much constructive of

parroting what I hear on CNN from the very IDF people that are responsible for the carnage in Lebanon.

[Igel]

27. How do you identify Hezbollah?

By their horns and tails? Green skin color? Their bright magenta uniforms? Tattoos? The M16s chained to their nipple rings? How?

In fact, there's been a shortfall in the numbers of adult men reported killed. Just like in Baghdad during the bombing campaign when they showed hospital wards full of women and kids.

(And then it turned out that the adult men were kept on different floors ...)

[Lindacooks]

20. That would be really funny

if it wasn't so sad and twisted.

If you really think that Israel is 'taking a beating' I feel bad for you.

[WinkyDink]

7. A Canadian U.N. worker there e-mailed that Hezbollah was ALL OVER

the U.N. offices.
For example.

[Emit]

19. Are you referring to this article posted here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1776289

Several days before his death, Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener sent an email in which he wrote: "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."

Canadian media interpreted the message as an insinuation that Hezbollah had been using the UN post or its surroundings as a shield for launching Katyusha rockets at Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744393.html

[TheWebHead]

10. it's not a myth

But an unfortunate consequence of those who are being militarily overpowered.

The easiest way to explain the circumstance of Hezbollah hiding amonst civilians and firing rockets randomly into Israel would be if you were being hunted in a park by a sharpshooter. To defend yourself, you hide and throw rocks at the sharpshooter as others walk about in the park. You have put others in the park in danger by hiding, but without hiding, you would be blown away. When you throw rocks back at the sharpshooter, the accuracy of a rock is limited, and you could hit other parkgoers. In this circumstance, the sharpshooter would complain and call you a war criminal, and would blame you if he kills other parkgoers because you were hiding and using illegal weapons. The sharpshooter then goes to the gun store to get a more powerful and more accurate gun, but the owner then refuses to sell you any weapons, even a slingshot, calling you a terrorist.

[mdmc]

21. It is a reality of war.

messy business, that.

[Major Hogwash]

22. Israel is using guided missles, not rocks though.

Where else is there to hide?

The country is flat with little cover.
It's a desert.

[Igel]

28. Little cover.

There's a mountain range running N-S through the middle, east of Beirut; over the range (Mt. Lebanon) is the Bekaa Valley.

The range peters out towards the south, but the central and eastern portions are hilly, leading into the Golan Heights (not the Golan Flatlands). Over towards Tyre the ground is flatter.

Almost all the pictures of fighting show hilly terrain; the UN bunker was on a ridge, for example.

The area in the south is arable, dry land farming mostly, so dependent on rainfall.

[oberliner]

16. No. No. No. No. Yes.

Those are my answers to these questions raised in your post:

"Can it really ever be rationalized? Excused? Is it an honest excuse? Or an acceptable excuse? Is it even true?"

It's not an acceptable excuse for Israel's actions and it is true that Hezbollah is attacking from civilian areas.

Both actions should be condemned by anyone who cares at all about the life of innocent Lebanese children.

IMHO, of course.

[DoYouEverWonder]

24. Is that why the US built the Pentagon

in middle of a large urban city, within spitting distance from the WH and the Capital?

[wellst0nev0ter]

25. Killing Those People In Qana Didn't Preven 132 Missiles

From being fired in Israel. Sometimes you just have to step back and assess if the tactic is even working.

on edit: spulling errers.

[The Cleaner]

26. Sigh.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here with a different point of view.

For years now, Israel has sat on its butt while Hezbollah has fired rockets into their country. Finally they take action to push back Hezbollah, and they're taking tremendous heat for it.

Why has Lebanon not reigned in Hezbollah? After all these years, why do they just throw up their arms and say there's nothing they can do about it? That is not acceptable you see. If they had done so this never would have happened.

But the fact is that Lebanon allowed a once-small terrorist group to take key positions in government and even in the military and it gained popularity. Therefore for Lebanon to disband or destroy Hezbollah would incur the wrath of its people. You see?

Israel has a choice. Either defend itself or suffer daily rocket attacks from a heartless enemy.

What would the U.S. do? What would any country do?

Now it is very true that these terrorists know how to play the game. Of course they hide in civilian populations. It is a long standing tactic. Then when Israel goes to bomb suspected Hezbollah they get blamed for killing civilians. If you think this is a new tactic then you obviously don't know much about middle east politics.

So many cite Israel as the bad guy on the block. They don't like civilian deaths either. Women, children, it is a tragedy. But why not put the blame where it truly lies - with the Hezbollah who are promoting these tactics that are getting innocent Lebanese killed.

[Igel]

29. Lebanon hasn't reined in Hezbollah because

Hezbollah's reigned in Lebanon.

Sorry, couldn't resist the word play.

[treestar]

33. Sigh, it is so tiring to see these same false either-or choices

over and over again, with the same self-pitying excuses.

The trouble is the more pity you stir up for poor Israel surrounded by enemies, the more you end up showing that Israel cannot survive where it is or that to do so it will forever have to be killing civilians in the surrounding countries just to survive.

This has been going on for decades now. Israel is not viable without killing civilians in the neighboring countries. Israel cannot defend itself without killing civilians in neighboring countries. We get it. So if we are against that, it must follow that we think Israel has "no right to exist." And from that, it must follow we "hate Jews." Right?

[cool user name]

34. That's how the story goes ...

:shrug:

[leftofthedial]

31. The FBI is justified in napalming a bank full of innocent bystanders

because there may be bank robbers hiding among the customers

well-established standard practice

why do you hate Jews?

[deaniac21]

32. Pitiful attempt at moral equivalence.

[leftofthedial]

35. Nothing pitiful about it.

Kill! Kill them all! Israel has a right to defend itself!

*"defend itself" is a registered trademark of Kill Anyone You Want, Inc.

[Emit]

38. I've asked this question before about moral equivalence

In all sincerity, when attempting to find moral equivalence in this matter, on the whole, are we to do so between all Muslims v all Jews? Or should we only be comparing those in each group who want to kill each other?

How is the argument of moral equivalence applied, or denied, in relation to the Middle East/Muslim/Jew issue? I would like to know more about this.