Israel's Image seems to have really taken a hit.

[Philosoraptor]

Israel is not doing much to garner sympathy here lately in the eyes of the world, in fact, from listening and reading people's reactions, some think of Israel as a "terrorist" nation.

I never did visit DU's I/P forum except to see how virulent it gets over there, but in the last two weeks since the NEW war began, people's opinions here I have found fascinating and revealing.

We've been allowed to express ourselves openly about it, because its the number one news story now, and both sides of the issue have been well represented here.

While both sides of the war have been properly criticized in my opinion, Israel's image has really suffered.

It seemed for years as if it were not socially acceptable to criticize Israel, for fear of being called Mel Gibson, but now that the issue is in the world's face, some of the shiny, blind faith support is fading.

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Killing innocent babies

is never good for your image.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. What do you expect

when you have the same group of people writing the foreign policy for both governments?

There no longer is much difference between the two and I now refer to them has US/Israel.

Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading it tonight.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[havocmom]

21. Sharon going to the Temple Mount set off latest years of strife

Things were sorta quiet prior to his campaign stunt. He/his party damned well knew that would be a trigger event. It was no accident that passions got inflamed, setting off more attacks and counter attacks, creating more blood feuds.

Yep, working with the neocons in US for the same people with the same agendas.

[cali]

2. Israel's image with the

left has never been good.

[acmavm]

8. Justifiably so. Israel has never been an honest ally to us.

Israel is completely dishonest about its intentions in the Middle East. Always has been. Has never dealt honestly with the Palestinian people. Have always claimed that they 'just want to live in peace' while snatching up all the good land and water. Always complained about the Palestinians wanting access to Jerusalem (a holy city for three religions) but never hesitated to support illegal settlements on 'Palestinian' land. Always justified every crime the government committed with 'remember the Holocaust' as if there weren't other races and peoples that Hitler and the Nazi party tried to eliminate from the face of the earth. And as if there weren't people of every faith and many nationalities who died to defeat Nazi Germany.

There are many many reasons for anyone's distrust of Israel and its government.

[cali]

13. I find your post sadly one sided

God knows there's much to criticize about Israel, and I've certainly done my share of it over time, but Israel is not the cut out bogeyman that you and most of the left, portray it as. Life is more complex than that.

When you speak of Israel having "Always complained about the Palestinians wanting access to Jerusalem", what are you talking about?
Before 1967 Israelis were denied access to their holiest site. After 1967 all religions were granted access to their holy sites.

You're quite right about the settlements, but wrong about the accusation that Israelis have justified everything by citing the Holocaust, and although the Holocaust certainly impacted other people, the Israelis have never denied that.

A greater share of blame for the mess, does lie with Israel, but the Palestinians, the Jordanians, the Egyptians and others are not blameless. In 1948, immediately after the founding of Israel, mistake or not, Israel was attacked by its neighbors, with the full expectation that it would be decisively defeated.

[acmavm]

16. See, I don't think my post is sadly one-sided at all. This is the

just a novel occasion, a new experience for those that support Israel. They're being called on their crimes and no one's backing down. The old 'you're an anti-semite if you criticize Israel or anything Israel does' just ain't working anymore. No one cares.

[cali]

18. Isn't it interesting

that you're the one that pre-emptively brought up a charge antisemitism? I certainly didn't. And any search of my comments, not just over the past few weeks, but in the I/P forum would find that I have harshly criticized Israel for numerous things. Too bad you had to bring up the bullshit about antisemitism in your post. It's no different to do that than it is to throw out false charges of antisemitism. And you neglected to respond factually to anything I wrote.

[acmavm]

30. I pointed out that the old whine about everyone who says

something negative (or perceived as negative) about Israel has in the past always been called 'anti-semetic' or a 'bigot'. And I pointed out that it just doesn't work anymore.

The point of my post was that this is a new experience for the Israeli apologist crowd. They can't fall back on the old deceptions and whines like they have for the past four decades.

And yes, I have noticed that you have been critical of some the the actions of Israel lately. But that wasn't the case about two weeks ago. You were pretty darn pro-Israel and 'it isn't their fault' right up until recently.

You were saying that Israel's image with the Left 'has never been good'. And I pointed out that maybe you and other Israeli supporters are just not used to the fact that people are being honest about what a gang of criminals run that government. Just like ours. Liars, theives, and cold blooded killers. You chose to make it sound like they are being victimized (as always) by someone, in this case the 'Left'.

[cali]

31. LOL

prevaricating are you? Find one post of mine that unequivocally supports Israel. Just one. As I said, I've been posting in I/P for a long time. Unlike you, I do nuance. Ergo, Israel to me is more than just a bogeyman, but a deeply flawed nation who's carried out policies that are both morally wrong and criminal. Just as the U.S has, as you noted.

By the way, two months ago, I condemned Israel's actions in Gaza as collective punishment. I've condemned the occupation for a long time. My posts are there for you to find.

Having spouted all the standard, stale, off the shelf, comments such as accusing me of portraying Israel as the victim (again put up or shut up- find just one post), and bringing up the whine about how "I'll be called an antisemite" when I hadn't mentioned it, do you actually have anything original, thoughtful, or truthful to say?

[Double T]

14. We fight NEOCONS in America and...........

and we fight NEOCONS throughout the world; every minute, every hour, everyday, forever!!!!

[lastliberalintexas]

33. That's not true at all

The "left" is not comprised soley of ANSWER members, in fact I'd say that they are a small minority of the fringe left of center people and politicians in this country. The rest of the left has almost universally supported Israel, whether for selfless reasons or not. Many have supported Israel as a homeland for Jews or because of the Jewish people, others have supported Israel for what it once was- a shining example of the possibility of a secular democracy in the Middle East, a country which could treat women and religious minorities fairly. And even the animosity of the far left towards Israel has been a fairly recent occurrence based primarily on its treatment of the Palestinians.

You paint with an awfully broad brush there.

[smacky44]

3. They don't care about image. They care about power and money!

Security is also not their concern. If it were, they would not occupy, kill, and destroy their neighbors. Nothing they do is an act of keeping peace. Withdrawing from one territory only to occupy another, and coducting cross-border assassinations and bulldozzings and bombings is not an act of courage or peace. If Americans were able to see the pictures of the Israeli massacres as the Arabs can see on their media outlets, it would be a different story here also.

[KharmaTrain]

4. David Vs. Goliath Syndrome

People, especially around here, tend to root for the "little guy", the underdog, the weak...in the PR campaign that has gone, Israel has long lost that battle and thus the strong Pro-Palestinian and now Pro-Hezbollah sentiment here...or should I say the anti-Israel attitude. It's because they've seen pictures of people battling war planes with pots and sling shots and this has struck an emotional chord that is only provoked further anytime the IDF attempts to defend what it believes is a threat to Israel's security.

It's easy for me, a Jew, to say, a lot of this is caused by anti-semetism, but I sincerely believe many here don't have such feelings, but just live high on both emotion and the sources of information they choose to read and believe. While I can scan DU or other similar sites and see Israel getting beat to a pulp and called every evil name in the book, I can go to a right wing site or a Jewish message board and see a lot of support for what the IDF is doing and how this war is being both mis-portrayed and mis-understood.

There's a fine line in criticizing Israel without a knee-jerk reaction of being called an anti-semite...and I've even been called that when I was critical of things I saw going on in Israeli politics. I'm like others here who abhor the violence...on all sides. There is no right in war...only death. Some want a one-sided solution that keeps Hezbollah missiles within striking distance of Israel. As long as this situation is allowed to continue, there's sadly going to be more attacks, more bombings and death.

[EFerrari]

10. Wtf? Those pictures of slaughtered civilians have struck

an "emotional chord"?

No. Actually, some of us don't think (**think***) that slaughtering innocent people is a good idea.

And I have no problem distinguishing between criticizing a homicidal government and anti-Semitism, thanks.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Now Is Hezbollah Not Homicidal?

Or how about Hamas? Should we discount the suicide bombings inside Israel that are just as gruesome as being some random act when the killer's family is paid money and schools teach to kill Israelis and Jews? Or should this side of the equation be ignored?

I'm abhored by Israel's excessive use of big weapons against a civilian population, however this area has been designated a war zone by Hezbollah and others and the civilians inside are targets for both sides...just as innocent civilians inside Israel are victims not only of a right wing government but also the on-going threat of a bomb or missile going off in their cities and indiscriminately killing. As I've stated endlessly, killing on all sides are wrong and to try to say one side is more justified in killing or one side kills more than the other belies the underlying problem that's created this situation and only polarizes and emboldens the right wings of both sides to continue the carnage.

I was going to mention to ya, but the thread was locked, my visit to Israel in the late 60s after the 6-Day war. I travelled freely around the region, including the West Bank and to the Northern border. It was a wierd time as the PLO hadn't really become a threat yet and many Palestinians I met were happy to be rid of the Jordanians...if anything they were hopefully as Israel was attempting to provide services that hadn't been provided in these towns in 20 years. I saw the ugly side as well...arrogant Israelis who looked upon Palestinians as second-class as well as Palestinians only working in jobs we associate with immigrants...janitors, day laborers and bus boys, but it was an interact...a start of people being able to inter-relate with one another. The attitude at the time from all was "we're not going to eliminate them so we might as well find a way to live with them". That changed as other parties with their own special interests got involved.

I mention anti-Semetism since I've seen shots taken against Israel using Nazi references...a deliberate, systemic extermination of a group of people. While I have and will condemn Israel for heavy handed attacks, I also see these events by some (definitely not you, Pat) to put it as a Jewish attitude rather than one of the Likud regime that call the military shots. I don't see the same attacks on Hamas or Hezbollah when they kill indiscriminately.

Cheers...

:hi:

[EFerrari]

25. False dilemma. I didn't state an opinion about Hezbollah

and you, Kharma, are positing one that isn't mine. And not for the first time.

And, it's very likely that you don't read "attacks" on Hezbollah because you don't read the posts of people who agree with you, either. :)

[KharmaTrain]

27. I'm Reading As Fast As I Can

:crazy:

I wasn't trying to pick a fight...just amplify. I guess my mind is getting ahead of the typing this morning...but then with all the passion here, I shouldn't expect less.

I'm making more a general observation that I think you took personal and I appologize if you felt that way. I'm just trying to find/bring balance to an ugly situation we both agree is both futile and bodes for even greater bloodshed.

[EFerrari]

28. In another thread, you asked me if I thought Hezbollah killing Jews

is a good idea because your "name is on that list." What are the chances, do you think, of the names of several people I love also being on that list? Or, any list?

That's not really trying to bring balance, is it? We can help calm all this down, you know. :)

[KharmaTrain]

29. There No Moral High Ground Here

I was seeing lots of posts here that denied Hezbollah attacked Jews. You saw them as well...and even when they were debunked, they kept showing up. There's the impression that it's the big bad Israelis and Jews who have an agenda and this war is part of a bigger, more sinister plot to dominate the Middle East.

The OP was pointing out was the image Israel is generating...especially here...in light of the Qana massacre and losing the PR battle. I wish this was a war of just words and not bodies...but there's the impression Hezbollah is a weak victim of a huge oppressor and that just isn't the case.

I point out the list to point out how over the top Hezbollah is and they have an agenda that is far more dangerous to world peace and American interests in both peace and that region.

I've attempted to stay out of the "discussion" here as its easy to go over the top and create lots of flaming and bad feelings, but when I see how one side is being portrayed as brutal while the other is being portrayed as a victim there needs to be some balance here...and yes calming down.

Sadly, we're bystanders to this tragedy while the regime in Washington sees it as a great distraction from all the corruption and destruction they've brought upon us and the world.

[Mir]

36. Hizbollah's agenda

is really very little more than the defense of their land and the care of their people, and I must take issue with the notion that they have an agenda that's dangerous to U.S. interests. I really don't think this is true. Hizbollah simply won't take any shit from the Israelis; that's just about it. They are no threat to the U.S. at all. They have never attacked the U.S. outside of their own land and they have never killed any of our civilians. What is more is that they are a "terrorist group" in the eyes of the U.S. and Israel only. The rest of world views them as a perfectly acceptable political entity.

[KharmaTrain]

38. There's A Nation Of Hezbollah?

According to my map the section just north of Caesaria and up through Tyre and into Beirut and out to tbe Bekaa Valley says "Lebanon".

Hezbollah was established in 1982 with heavy funding by Iran with the specific design of picking up the mantra of destroying Israel after the PLO was kicked out of Southern Lebanon. I assume you believe that the bombing of the 280 plus American marines in Beirut in 1983, that Hezbollah took credit for, was justified.

Hezbollah is a nation within a nation states regularly of not only their kill Israelis but Jews as well. Don't even try to portray Hezbollah as a moderating or positive force in this region. They have plenty of blood on their hands and their tactics of hiding in civilian populations puts many innocent people at risk when it starts shooting its missiles into Israel.

Any organization or government that calls for the destruction of other people are terrorists. They are a terrorist organization in the fact they use civilian populations, mosques, ambulences and other guerilla tactics to pursue a war that will not end with negotiation or accomodation, but according to their own claims, the total destruction of Israel and the death of as many Jews as possible. They don't differentiate.

You're right...Hezbollah won't "take shit from Israelis"...and that's the problem. With no compromise, no ability to negotiate, the blood will continue to spill and this conflict will escalate and kill more innocent civilians on both sides. Israel won't go away, the Palestinians won't go away, the land won't change...50 plus years of wars have created a worse world for all of us. Hezbollah is a proxy army/party of Iran, picking up the slack the Syrians left when they withdrew a couple years ago. But then I imagine it's just fine with you that "perfectly acceptable political entities" have their own armies and openly call for the eeath of a millions of people.

[Mir]

39. Interesting. Let me see if I can't answer some of your points here.

You asked: "There's a nation of Hezbollah?"

No. Hizbullah is a political party with an active militia and media wing.

You stated: "Hezbollah was established in 1982 with heavy funding by Iran with the specific design of picking up the mantra of destroying Israel after the PLO was kicked out of Southern Lebanon."

The first part (created in 1982) is true. The second part starting with "with the specific design..." yadda yadda yadda is pure opinion. And opinions, like assholes, well, you know... And let me give you a pointer here. If you really want to understand Hizbullah's base of support, turn your eyes from Iran and set them upon Russia. I think you will be unpleasantly surprised by what you'll find with just a little bit of research.

Your post resumes with: "I assume you believe that the bombing of the 280 plus American marines in Beirut in 1983, that Hezbollah took credit for, was justified."

No, actually I don't and no part of my original message indicated otherwise. And, for the record, the number is 241. Don't let the facts get in the way of an agenda though. Don't ever let that happen.

It continues - strangely - as follows: "Hezbollah is a nation within a nation states regularly of not only their kill Israelis but Jews as well"

This language is almost Bushian in its style. I'm not sure what it is supposed to mean as I'm not even entirely sure that it is English. I can say though that Hizbullah is not a "nation within a nation states" as you so eloquently state, but, as I said before, a political party with an active militia and a media wing.

Continuing, you wrote: "Don't even try to portray Hezbollah as a moderating or positive force in this region."

Okay.

You then claim that Hezbollah is intent on: "the total destruction of Israel and the death of as many Jews as possible. They don't differentiate."

As I made clear before, I'm not interested in opinions or assholes. Please quote Hezbollah's charter on this, or give it up.

Continuing: "Israel won't go away, the Palestinians won't go away, the land won't change...50 plus years of wars have created a worse world for all of us."

I agree.

Then, you strangely write that: "Hezbollah is a proxy army/party of Iran, picking up the slack the Syrians left when they withdrew a couple years ago."

Nonsense. Hizbullah's role has not changed since Syria left. This is ridiculous. Cite to me exactly how they have "picked up the slack." This is just silly. Hibullah has been consistent for years irrespective of Syria's physical military presence in Lebanon. As for Iran, yes of course they provide a large amount of support on a continual basis, but please, follow my advice and look at Russia. You are going to love what you find there. I promise. I know I do.

Then you finish with this doozy: "But then I imagine it's just fine with you that "perfectly acceptable political entities" have their own armies and openly call for the eeath of a millions of people"

Did you mean "for the deaths of millions of people?"

No. I believe that perfectly acceptable political entities have the right to stand up to two-bit, racist, aparthied terrorist states by whatever means necessary to safeguard the sovereignty of their native land and the protection and dignity of the people amongst which it exists. Shalom va lehitriot.

[EFerrari]

37. I don't copy you, Kharma.

This war IS part of a bigger plan for a "new Middle East", as the San Francisco Chronicle reported. This "war" was planned a year in advance, between BushCo and Israel. It is probably not an Israeli plot at all, but rather a plan of the BushCo multinationals that has little or no regard for the security of Israel or for human life in general. To them, it isn't personal, it's business.

Frankly, I don't think that Hezbollah is more dangerous than BushCo. It would be a very hard sell to convince me of that, even were you so inclined.

I myself am not interested in who is the worst offender but in getting the offenses to stop. Yes, I am deeply disappointed in the Israeli government. But that disappointment can't be compared to the loathing I fight in myself for our own.

And you are right. The Cabal will use anything, anything, to further their interests. Because they are not a government per say. They are a business in governing drag.

So you see, I have no stake in vilifying Israel or in painting Hezbollah into the Victim corner. Jack Webb comes to mind, "Just the facts, ma'am". My interest is in hanging onto the facts despite the daily propaganda onslaught in any way I can.

[mike_c]

5. it has always been tough to support apartheid and institutionalized...

...ethnic oppression. The left has always had that difficulty with Israel. I'm probably a typical case-- raised on Leon Uris's perspective to be a staunch supporter of Israel, but learning later about the reality of Israeli oppression and aggression. "Blind faith" indeed. The more one looks, the worse it gets.

[EFerrari]

11. You said it. I have a really hard time supporting the

careless pre-emptive slaughter of future enemies.

Go figure.

[EFerrari]

9. No, both sides of the issue have not been well represented.

The Arab view has been vastly underrepresented. Please, let's be honest.

[jayfish]

15. Understatement Of The Century. -NT-

Jay

[leftchick]

20. you said it!

especially in the media, let alone from our so called representatives. :grr:

[malaise]

17. What image - this?

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me1.html

[Philosoraptor]

22. Excellent report, thanks

[grassfed]

23. don't take the bait

The neocon machine is counting on "liberal anti-semtism" in November and 08.

[EFerrari]

24. And it won't matter if we let them count our votes. n/t

[treestar]

26. Some people defending Israel at all costs

seem to react as if they are not used to having to defend Israel's actions intellectually at all. As if they are used to being able to shut off any debate with an emotional reaction and an accusation.

Most of us were just conditioned to support Israel and it's getting to a point where we actually think about it for the first time. And on second thought, a Jewish state makes no more sense than a Muslim state. The whole thing goes against what the US is.

I may have Irish blood and there may be an Irish state, but I don't really care whether it continues anywhere or not, at least, if it couldn't, I wouldn't expect the rest of the people in America to put it first, ahead of their own interests. I may have been raised Catholic and there may not be a Catholic state anywhere now, but that doesn't bother me, living in the US.

[Beelzebud]

32. Shocking I tell you.

Something about slaughtering women and children will do that to a reputation every time...

[breakaleg]

34. Has it suffered enough?

Yes, Israel's image has suffered. It seems the world at large is against a lot of the policies of Israel in how they deal with conflict in their region.

But as long as they have the support of the US, and as long as the US has veto power at the UN, what can be done? What is it going to take to affect change in Israel?

It's pretty disheartening to see public opinion so strongly against the atrocious acts of Israel in recent weeks, yet they continue on their path of destruction.

The UN's hands are tied by the US. I don't see any in sight.

[Tesha]

35. This time, it's like they hired the PR firm "Screwup, Murder, and Mayhem"

Normally, Israel's press coverage (at least in the American
corporate media) has been spotless, even as they shoot
journalists and run bull-dozers over unarmed protesters.

But this time, it's like they hired the PR firm of "Screwup,
Murder, and Mayhem".

I honestly wonder what changed this time.

Tesha