Why Don't Most of Us Believe Hezbollah's Words?

[MannyGoldstein]

Some quotes from Hezbollah Leader Hassan Nasrallah:

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

"Death to America. To the murderers of the prophets, the grandsons of apes and pigs,' we say: ... 'Death to Israel...'"

"The sons of Zion, whom our God described as the sons of apes and pigs, will not be deterred unless there is a real holocaust, that will destroy all of them at once, together with the traitors – those who collaborate with them, the scum of this nation."

Why do many or most folks on DU firmly believe that Nasrallah, and his 12,000+ missiles, are just kidding around?

When Hitler took over Germany in the 1930s, many folks thought that Mein Kampf was empty rhetoric by the tenuous leader of a weak nation.

[EFerrari]

1. False premise. n/t

[Lerkfish]

14. agreed. This is like accusing people of being saddam sympathizers if

they disagreed with the Iraq war.

I can be appalled at the systematic destruction of Lebanon without being a fan of hezbollah.

false premise.

[KharmaTrain]

22. So Is Calling For Death To All Jews A False Premise?

Just wonderin' how ya square that...since as a Jew, I'm on his list as well. I surely don't have a list of Arab or Moslem names and I don't know of any Israeli government document that exists that calls for the extermination of any group of people. This isn't some fringe lunatic...this is a man who controls thousands of armed fighters and whose organization's main purpose is solely the destruction of Israel.

It takes two to tango...and to cast blame on one side and dismiss the murderous nature of the other is unfair to ALL victims in this ugly war and only serves to polarize sides that will prolong the killing and hateful rhetoric.

[treestar]

33. What is wrong with logic?

Why do you have a problem using logic?

You just insult our intelligence. This is emotionalism, pure and simple, and we do not fall for it.

Just because they're doing it, doesn't mean you can. Geez, it's like dealing with two fighting 6 year olds.

And you are perfectly safe.

[KharmaTrain]

Whose Citing Numbers?

I sure am not...one needless death...be it civilian or military...is one death too many. There are those who are attempting to justify one form of death over another or that their casualties are far more horrid than the other side. What kind of logic is this? Addressing the civilian deaths on one side of this ugly war without taking into account the civilian deaths on the other is insulting my intelligence...or to use body counts to make political points.

Both sides need to stand down...the killing on both sides needs to stop. The Israeli Jets as well as the Hezbollah rockets. There needs to be dialogue as to finding ways to live with one another, not trying to prove one side is more evil than the other and setting the stage for the next round of bloodletting. In this ugly war, as in others in this region, the only one who wins is the grim reaper.

Peace...

[KharmaTrain]

39. Whose Citing Numbers?

I sure am not...one needless death...be it civilian or military...is one death too many. There are those who are attempting to justify one form of death over another or that their casualties are far more horrid than the other side. What kind of logic is this? Addressing the civilian deaths on one side of this ugly war without taking into account the civilian deaths on the other is insulting my intelligence...or to use body counts to make political points.

Both sides need to stand down...the killing on both sides needs to stop. The Israeli Jets as well as the Hezbollah rockets. There needs to be dialogue as to finding ways to live with one another, not trying to prove one side is more evil than the other and setting the stage for the next round of bloodletting. In this ugly war, as in others in this region, the only one who wins is the grim reaper.

Peace...

[EFerrari]

40. No, saying that many or most DUers think Hezbollah

is fooling around is one of the many false premises in this very badly written OP.

That's how square I am. Mazel tov.

[GoneOffShore]

2. Well, check out YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fsearch%3Dnasrallah%26v%3D9WxQcWNHmAo

It will ask you to verify age.


And the lyrics are just as inflammatory as Nasrallah's words.

It's apparently doing just as well in Israel as the Horst Wessel Song did in Germany in the 30's.

[Igel]

6. Haven't seen it.

Probably won't.

One question: Did the producer of the video lead 10k fighters, trained in guerrilla tactics? Or 12k rockets? Or stockpiles of other munitions? Or lead a political party that seems to be quite popular?

Hate and racism is on all sides. On one, it's argued against, delegitimized, and marginalized, by and large; not as much as it should be. On the other, it's a matter of pride and dignity.

I discount any system of pride and honor that requires denigration.

I discount any system that makes too many errors in categorization.

[Nimrod2005]

10. Re racism, Jews are a race? I thought Jews and Arabs are from the same

race? no?

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Unfortunate - But Not Even Close

This is an unfortunate video. But to compare this video to the call for the annihlation of all members of an entire religion - I'm not sure how those two equate.

[eallen]

3. No Democrat should hold iota of sympathy for the religious right.

It's very simple: the wingnuts in Hezbollah and other Islamic organizations make our own religious right look like ineffective by comparison. Only in Falwell's and Schafly's wet dreams could they possibly achieve the illiberal kind of law that is implemented in Iran, or that Hezbollah wants in Lebanon. Every liberal should oppose these groups for the simple reason that they are religious fundamentalists whose ends are religious states, and whose means are unrestrained by normal considerations, because they are doing "God's will."

[Spazito]

4. Hezbollah is as credible as Israel, neither can be believed

I will always remember Qana and the Israeli lies about it.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. How Do You Know They Are Lies?

The wingnuts went to war in Iraq because they "just knew it, dammit!" that Iraq had WMD. Should the Left do the same?

[MadHound]

12. Let's deal with the concrete then

What happened to that forty eight hr "cease fire" that Israel promised? I wake up this morning and whoops, Israel is bombing the shit out of southern Lebanon again. Seems to me like Israel broke their word on that one, one of many.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. They Did Not Declare A Cease-Fire

Only a suspension of the bombing campaign. Planes are still supporting ground troops.

[MadHound]

23. ". . . an immediate 48-hour suspension of aerial strikes. "

Sorry, didn't have the proper wording, it indeed shouldn't have been cease fire. Still and all, the fact remains that Israel is certainly not keeping to the spirit, and probably not the letter, of this agreement. Israel gave two exceptions to this suspension, namely they reserved the right to bomb if they saw Hezbollah getting ready to launch rockets, and in support of ground troops. These two holes in the suspension agreement are big enough to fly a bomber through, and apparently Israel is doing so. Sorry, but I find that sort of action reprehensible. One doesn't promise to suspend bombing, and yet provide an out in order to continue the bombing.

In addition, now that the Bush administration looks like they are about to capitulate to world opinion and call for a cease fire, the Israeli government is now saying no to any cease fire, that they're going to continue their assault for the next 10-14 days at least. Another two weeks of unbridled savagery, killing many more innocents and laying waste to Lebanon. Sorry, but that is reprehensible, immoral, just flat out wrong.

[MadHound]

24. delete, double post n/t

[Spazito]

20. Because Israel has been caught, repeatedly, lying to cover up

their actions. It is as simple as that.

[MannyGoldstein]

45. Evidence? (eom)

[Spazito]

47. One example....

VIDEO - An IDF investigation has found that the building in Qana struck by the Air Force fell around eight hours after being hit by the IDF.

"The attack on the structure in the Qana village took place between midnight and one in the morning. The gap between the timing of the collapse of the building and the time of the strike on it is unclear," Brigadier General Amir Eshel, Head of the Air Force Headquarters told journalists at the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv, following the incidents at Qana.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html

but the truth is:

"Lebanese villagers in Qana who were witness to the bombing, however, say that the building's collapse occurred in the wee hours of the night.

Witnesses at the scene corroborated the IDF claim that the strike on the building, which is located in the Hariva neighborhood of Qana, was carried out at 1:00 A.M. After the initial strike, some of the building's residents exited in an attempt to survey the damage, in effect saving themselves.

A few minutes later, IAF planes struck the building once again, causing the walls to collapse on the residents who did not vacate, killing them in the process."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744332.html

This is only typical, one of many.

[MannyGoldstein]

48. No Proof That Israel is Lying

This hardly qualifies as a blatant Israeli lie - someone is wrong about the timing, either the Israelis or the Lebanese. Why do you assume it's the Israelis?

[Spazito]

49. Because it was Israel that did the bombing and then lied about it

I have no doubt that no matter what I post showing Israel has a nasty habit of lying about their actions, you would negate it with the same nonsensical argument as above. To even pretend that Israel does not lie is ludicrous on it's face no matter how you may try to justify it.

Israel and Hezbollah both lie because it serves their purposes to do so.

[MannyGoldstein]

50. I Guess Israel Lying is "Truthy" (eom)

[JerseygirlCT]

5. I don't know. It mystifies me. nt

[marmar]

7. I think Hezbollah is a hateful and horrible organization....

but to turn that into justification for killing hundreds of Lebanese men, women and children who have nothing to do with Hezbollah? I can't do it.

[Nimrod2005]

9. Good post, at the same time, I feel that Israel is not shy about their

constant desire to look and act militarily superior to its neighbors ---- Just like the US does from time to time.

Israel has plenty of blood on its hands, Jews or no Jews...I think they call themselves the Jewish State however, so I am not sure about your remarks regarding Nasrallah.

Stuff about Hitler and trying to imply that Israel and Jews are always victims...blah blah blah is frankly bullshit. Israel has proudly existed for 60 years now, stronger militarily than any other Arab state, financially backed by the strongest economy in the world (the US and my tax money), has managed to forge ahead with all its peaceful and violent plans under the veto protection of the United States.

Today, Israel and the US stand alone for a reason.

P.S. I support the elimination of Hizaballah 100%.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. My Point Was Not "Jews as Perma-Victims"

My point was that when people say they want to commit genocide, and then they get lots of followers and weapons, they usually do commit genocide - why don't people believe this is the case?

[Nimrod2005]

17. Do you really think a small ass undersupplied local militia

is going to commit genocide? against Israel of all people/countries?

Part of why the world is outraged is becasue this is not even a fair fight...The nation of Israel is destroying a neutral country called Lebanon to get back at a local gang of no more than 10K people? and you want to cry genocide?

[YOY]

15. Did someone say Hezbolla were the 'good guys'?

Did I miss something?

[treestar]

35. Nope. It is just the constant attempt to pretend that questioning

Israel's actions is the equivalent of anti-semitism, supporting terrorists, Hezbollah, etc. meant to distract us from the point and use emotionalism to force agreement, since apparently, there are no logical arguments they can think of in favor of the stance their emotions seem to require them to take.

[YOY]

42. Pretty much what I thought...

Rather amazing on how many DUers have 'joined us' after this whole fiasco began and attempted to push that very point: that not supporting Isreal is equivalent of being some goosestepping antisemitic freak in addition to being 'pro-terrorist.' Reminds me of FReeperspeak...and I do not like it.

Something smells rotten in Denmark...I would like the mods to take notice of tihs.

[Ravenseye]

18. Who doesn't believe their words?

Sure there might be trolls on this board batting for both sides on this issue, but the vast...VAST majority on this site understand that Hezbollah is dangerous and a radical group. I, along with many others, aren't questioning the fact that Hezbollah is a danger to Israel, and even Lebanon. What we're questioning is HOW Israel is dealing with them. How Israel is dealing with Hezbollah will do nothing to obtain peace in the long run for Israel, and only will create a whole new generation of people who hate her.

[Igel]

19. IMHO, the problem is that they bought their PR.

One the one hand, there's cultural relativism; then there's "we're all the same". I've never tried to reconcile the two because even on the surface they say diametrically opposed things (and I'm not into playing word games to support some sort of dialectic), but some seem to have reconciled them in "we're all the same, but there are some cultural differences in expressing them". Sort of a Universal Grammar applied to human behavior. We're all the same, but some 'authentic' people have distinctive food and historically distinctive dress; the US doesn't, so the US has no culture.

Universal Grammar is a linguistics term. Chomsky used it widely, and triggered a lot of controversy. Oddly, introspection--sitting in one's office and figuring out what's grammatical and not--provided lots of useful data for analysis. And a theory of grammar emerged at MIT. Called Universal Grammar, all languages, in principle, could be reduced to it. Oddly, Universal Grammar for the first 20 years was more or less English grammar. German, Nweh, Burusaski, Urdu, Tai, Mixtec ... all were English + some rules to account for differences.

Now, I personally believe that most people do mostly want the same things, and the closer they have simply pragmatic issues in mind,'food and shelter', the more similar. But I also think that culture and religion can make for entirely different perspectives on things, and the less food-and-drink is our focus and the more we care about social relations, the more culture and beliefs play a role. But if you take "everybody's the same" seriously, then this Chomsky fallacy works just fine: all languages ultimately are like Chomsky's, all behaviors are ultimately like 'mine' (whoever 'I' is).

If you're a Marxist, then all struggles are class stuggles. If you're a human rights advocate, all struggles are struggles for universal human rights. If you're a fundie Christian, all struggles are between good and evil, in a religious sense. Egalitarians believe everybody's struggling for equality. Nietscheans see things in terms of Nietsche's thinking. If you're a pacifist, everybody's just striving for the kind of peace you want. Each claims that 'critical thinking' led them to their conclusions.

Getting 'out of your skin' and seeking to even try to understand words and actions from a different cultural framework is a waste of time, since all can be reduced to terms familiar to us all. To accept Nasrallah's words at face value may necessitate some painful revisions to one's thinking; easier to say that he doesn't mean what they say, that we have to interpret what he says into terms that make sense to us, or even simplier is just to read over them since they don't fit our schemata. Heaven forbid we devise new schemata.

The starting point is to assume that Nasrallah means what he says, and he's fairly consistent. He is not insane; he makes sense, and what he says is comprehensible and logical. Look at enough of his words and actions, and you have enough to start deducing the outlines of his belief and value system.

[pelsar]

43. i noticed the subject got changed to israel....

lets back up to Hizballa...

The starting point is to assume that Nasrallah means what he says, and he's fairly consistent. He is not insane; he makes sense, and what he says is comprehensible and logical. Look at enough of his words and actions, and you have enough to start deducing the outlines of his belief and value system.

yes i believe his intent...and whether he can do it now or might be able to use a nuke a couple years down the line is a problem for some of us.

so why dont many of the posters here believe him?

[endarkenment]

21. Rhetoric vs dead babies.

By your deeds you shall be known.

[springhill]

44. Exactly..........

Countries, just as well as individuals make some very stunning statements, but that's all they are. Just because a leader does not use the harsh rhetoric does not mean their goals are not as nefarious as the ones doing the talking. They may be even more so.

[Strawman]

46. That's exactly right

The rhetoric is hateful and wrong, but it's not the kind of existential threat it is fluffed up to be in the MSM in order to construct the kind of threat necessary to warrant what is plainly a disporportionate response by Israel.

Watching the Israeli ambassador to the UN on Russert yesterday was truly a masterful demonstration of the political art of threat construction. Then Russert was grilling the Lebanese UN ambassador, whose country is being bombed to smithereens, about Hizbullah's bombastic rhetoric as if it were even more deadly and dangerous than actual bombs.

I'm ashamed to call myself a Democrat in the wake of all this and the 410-8 cheerleading exhibition in Congress last week. In fact, right now, I can't call myself a Democrat. Our elected officials of both parties are a bunch of cynical whores. I'm almost surprised they're not passing another resolution reaffirming their support of Israel in the wake of Qana. I'm even skeptical about some of those who voted against that come from heavily Arab-American districts. Very few stick up for the powerless on the basis of principle. I'm sickened by all of this. My faith in this party to stick up for the little guy and the powerless seems entirely misplaced.

[mmonk]

25. The war on Lebanon

is immoral regardless of the pretext of Hezbollah.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. Why don't we believe the words of Israel's leadership?

One can quote former Israeli PM Menachim Begin, who in 1982 described Palestinians as “beasts walking on two legs.” Or one can quote Ehud Barak, another former Israeli PM who in 2000 said, “The Palestinians are like crocodiles.” There is also former Chief of Staff of the IDF Rafael Eitan, who said in 1983, “We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” Or to take a more recent IDF Chief of Staff, there is Moshe Ya’alon, who described Palestinians as a “cancer” requiring either “amputation” or “chemotherapy” in 2002. And then there is also Rabbi Yaacov Peerin, who, speaking at a ceremony held in the “honor” of Baruch Goldstein, considered a hero among Israeli settlers for mowing down Muslim civilians at a mosque, said, “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”

zmag.org

If you want to say tit, I'll say tat.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. Please Find Actual Quotes, And Keep The Context

The Begin quote is out of context.

The Barak quote is extraordinarily out of context.

Those are just the first two that I looked up - I'll check the others later when I have time.

Please be careful to correctly quote people.

[Ms. Clio]

28. The quotes are accurate

and Camera is not a credible source.

We've had this discussion already, remember? Although I noticed you ignored the proof when it was provided that time, as well: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1758527

[Minstrel Boy]

29. then please have the courtesy to do the same

I'm sure Hezbollah's leadership has said many terrible things, but you didn't even provide cites to their brief quotes in your original post.

[Marie26]

30. Please, please

stop quoting this. People keep posting these quotes, only to have them debunked later on. There should be a warning posted at the top or something. It'd be good if the OP provided a source, too.

[Ms. Clio]

31. they have not been debunked; just the opposite

see the thread referenced in #28

[Minstrel Boy]

34. Thanks for the link

I hadn't read that thread. Good to see the Shamir quote in context, and with a New York Times citation.

[Ms. Clio]

36. you're welcome

although Emit did all the work.

[Tyler Durden]

37. They are both reprehensable.

Hezbollah for their terrorist behaviors and voicings.

Israel for their total disregard for non-Israeli Human life.

They BOTH believe they are some sort of God-Chosen People, the Almighty's little pets.

Piss on them. BOTH of them. And time for this country to quit supporting either of them with rhetoric or with arms.

[treestar]

32. We believe them (subject to any normal checking for attempts

at false propoganda). If they are true, we disapprove of Nasrallah and Hezbollah. We despise them for killing Israeli civilians. We condemn them and any Islamic state they want to have.

Satisfied? Or are there more conclusions you believe we are forced to draw?

What's wrong with logic?

[leesa]

38. I don't know. I don't believe a word out of Israel's government.

[bemildred]

41. All politicians are professional liars. nt

[Hoping4Change]

51. Isreal is responsible for the creation of Hezbollah, it didn't

exist until Isreal occupied Lebanon in the 80's.

Israel is reaping what it sowed. And it hasn't sowed peace.

[Lilith Velkor]

52. Oh look, it's the Hitler card again

:boring: