Do You agree with Hezbollahs analysis of Israel?

[bryant69]

And if so how much?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[sabra]

1. Can you provide us with the analysis?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Disingenous poll.

Please provide a link to the analysis you're asking us about. Otherwise, this doesn't amount to much more than one of those "Are you with us or against us?" polls.

[jonnyblitz]

6. exactly, "if you don't agree with pro-Israel analysis you must

agree with the Hezbollah analysis" so pathetically transparent.

[bryant69]

18. I apologize if that is how you took it

But that is not how it was intended - and I assumed that most people are aware of what Hezbollah believes about Israel. Perhaps I was mistaken.

[JVS]

3. Would you mind directing me to this analysis of which you speak?

[bryant69]

24. Here you go

Wikipedia has soem stuff --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Here is Hezbollah's official site, apparently --> http://www.alghaliboun.net/english/

Bryant

[mmonk]

4. I'm for international co-operation and peace.

Anything I post that is interpreted as anything else is false.

[jonnyblitz]

5. I haven't seen Hezbollah analysis. the analysis I see that is

brutally critical is mostly by Jews, Israelis, and leftists that seem to have the sense not to buy into this neocon bloodbath.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Hmmmm

Some quotes from Hezbollah Leader Hassan Nasrallah:

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

"Death to America. To the murderers of the prophets, the grandsons of apes and pigs,' we say: ... 'Death to Israel...'"

"The sons of Zion, whom our God described as the sons of apes and pigs, will not be deterred unless there is a real holocaust, that will destroy all of them at once, together with the traitors – those who collaborate with them, the scum of this nation."

---------


"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew.


Wow- I'm glad that some of my fellow DUers think I'm cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Since I'm Only "Half" Jewish

only half of me is "cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche... " , and a descendant of apes and pigs.

[Meshuga]

13. You are not half Jewish

There is no such thing. :-)

If your mother is Jewish than you are Jewish by default even if your father isn't Jewish. If your father is Jewish and your mother is not, and you were raised as a Jew, then you are a Jew.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Of Course But It's A Tad More Complex

-:)

[RethugAssKicker]

31. Who dictates this as a fact. .. GOD ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. The Poster Was Kidding

But Judaism is a matrlineal religion.

[RethugAssKicker]

40. No, I have heard this for years....

People accept that shit as fact...

[Meshuga]

140. People accept what...

...shit as fact?

Whether God dictated this or not I have no clue since I never heard God give his opinion on the subject (or on anything else). Best source is for these kind of questions are Responsa articles, the Shulchan Aruch, or whatever Jewish text you find valid. It is also a good idea to ask a rabbi.

All I know is this:

Orthodox interpretation of Jewish Law dictates a person is Jewish if he/she is born of a Jewish mother or people converted according to Ortodoxy.

Conservative Movement interpretation of Jewish Law dictates a person is Jewish if he/she is born of a Jewish mother or if a person converts to Judaism.

Reform Movement interpretation of Jewish Law dictates a person is Jewish if he/she is born of a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism or be a child of a Jewish father (if the child is raised as a Jew).

[Lurking Dem]

148. I also don't think

when Nazis were breaking down doors they paused and asked you when the last time you attended shul was.

[Meshuga]

149. Nazi's even broke the doors

of Jews who never went to shul and the doors of the ones who actually attended church on regular basis.

[PATRICK]

12. That sounds like grist for the minions

The real analysis is more like getting Israelis to leave Israel and that won't happen by addressing stuff like that to them. It is nonsense to try to act like they believe they can invade Israel but this sounds more like posing than a real "idea". Being a little short in the sticks and stones department can up the rhetoric.

[treestar]

42. So since Nasrallah is a jerk, Lebanese civilians should die

That's in essence what we are getting on DU in post after post. Just one excuse after another based on the premise that it's OK for Israel to do what they are now doing, because of this or that or anything they can think of. As long as a single Arab says a damn thing, it'll excuse killing all the others.

Pardon us if we don't choose to take up with it. The unbridled emotionalism is the very reason both sides keep killing each other.

The rest of the world should draw one big boundary around all of them and tell them to live with each other in a secular state like adults. Like most of the rest of the world does.

If we can live in the US as Jews, Christians, Muslim, Atheists, Wiccans and every other religion imaginable under the sun, with ethnic variety that basically covers any possible human ethnicity, without killing each other over it, these bastards in the middle east can grow the hell up and do it too.

[lastliberalintexas]

59. Bravo

I'm losing my patience with the "leaders" over there too. At this point, I am shamefully only sad that the civilians caught in the crossfire are dying. Nasrallah and Olmert? Wouldn't even wince at their demise.

I hope karma is kind to me for such bad thoughts. :(

[lastliberalintexas]

57. Which fellow Duers?

Seriously, post names or links if you're going to make such a fucked up accusation. I can't say with certainty that there hasn't been a post which was actually defending Hezbollah, but I'd be very surprised. Most of the posts I've seen which are critical of Israel are from posters who are also verrrry wary of Hezbollah and the extremist Muslim state it would love to have in Lebanon.

The fact that you and others on this site can take criticism of Israel's assholish ways to mean that we agree with and support Hezbollah -

a) shows a profound lack of intelligence and a lack of basic logical debating skills OR
b) is extreme, intentional spinning of those criticisms of a nation state into hatred of its people.

I don't know which would be worse, but either way, it's fucked up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. My Intelligence Is Just Fine

The seminal poster asked if respondents agreed with Hezbollah's analysis of Israel.

Part of Hezbollah's analysis of Israel,one could logically assume , is based on Nasrallah's opinion or observation that (Jews) are "weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion."

And nowhere did I impugn or endorse Israel's actions.


I won't wait for an apology....

[lastliberalintexas]

62. So it's spinning?

The posters arguing the logical fallacy that criticism of Israel equals support for Hezbollah do not fall into choice a, so they fall into choice b and are spinning, twisting and contorting people's posts to make it seem as though what was said was more than mere criticism of a nation state? Good to know.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. This Is Really Elementary

Nasrallah has opined that (all) Jews are "weak" "feeble minded" and worthy of elimination.

A logical person would assume Nasrallah factors his opinions or observations into his analysis of Israel.

For instance I think sex is fun. This certainly goes into my analysis of whether to have sex or not.

[lastliberalintexas]

65. And again, what I am asking for is the names of posters

and/or links to posts where DUers have actually *supported and cheered on Hezbollah* rather than merely criticized Israel. I understand that you are arguing that support for Hezbollah would mean support for Nasrallah's statements, and though that is also a logical leap, it is at least much more credible than the leap from criticism of Israel = support for Hezbollah. I'd be very, very interested to see if ANY posters have actually said anything in support of HEZBOLLAH.

Criticizing the nation of Israel and/or voicing sympathy/support for the civilians caught in the middle is NOT, I repeat, NOT the same damn thing as supporting Hezbollah.

So are there any links to posters who have actually done what you've accused them of? Or was your post merely hyperbolic spin in order to confuse the issues involved in this situation? Throwing in a few horrid statements from one of the "leaders" involved in this conflict and trying to paint any critic of Israel with that brush is idiotic and wrong, and it takes away from the discussions of the REAL issues involved.

And of course it also deflects attention away from the children who are being killed. Can't have people worried about that, can we?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. It's Elementary (Redux)

I'll go slowly...

I am confining myself to Narallah's statements and how they factor into Hezbollah's analysis of the situation in Israel.For the purposes of this thread I am not interested in a "global" discussion of the entire conflict and have made no attempt to make it into one.

The poll asked if "you" agreed with Hezbollah's "analysis" of the situation in Israel.

It's only logical that his opinion of Jews influences his analysis.

And many here, as the poll indicates, endorsed his analysis.


I don't see how one can logically embrace his analysis while rejecting the factors that went into it.


It would be like arguing that Johnny eats ice cream because he doesn't like it it.

Here...

The dependent variable is Johnny's consumption of ice cream. The independent variables are the factors that influence Johnny's consumption of ice cream. One would assume Johnny eats ice cream because he likes it.

One can not divorce Hezbollah's analysis of Israel from Nasrallah's "exterminationist" intentions toward Jews not just Israelis.

[lastliberalintexas]

114. It's an anon poll, DSB

There is no way to be certain that the people who voted that way really are DUers, and I'd be very surprised if they are.

I'll leave it at that, and know that we probably agree about much more than we disagree.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

67. And you won't deserve an apology either. (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Break My Fucking Heart

Kisses

[Democrats_win]

9. By its actions, Israel proves Hezbollah right.

Hezbollah's unsaid, yet obvious position is that they need rockets to defend against Israeli attacks. Accepting the excuse that bombs miss targets, Israel still has deliberately attacked non-Hezbollah targets and thus proves to Lebanon that Hezbollah was right.

[blonndee]

10. And that analysis is what? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Nasrallah's Analysis

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew."



-:(

[endarkenment]

14. That is not an analysis of the state of Israel as per the OP.

That is you cherry picking one nasty quote from Nasrallah. By the way there are many equivalent quotes about arabs, muslims, and palestinians from assorted Israeli leaders. Here is a clue: they hate each other.

The OP meanwhile appears to have cut'n'run.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. You Won't Hear That Racist Nonsense From Me

Oh, it's clear Nasrallah makes no distinction between Jews and Israelis.

[endarkenment]

26. Are you an Israeli leader?

Is not that what I said?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. No- I'm An American

but what do I know since Nasrallah said I'm "weak and feeble minded," and a descendant of an "ape/pig."

[cali]

17. That's hardly cherry picking

it's representative of the rhetoric Nasrallah employs.

[bryant69]

19. I apologize for cutting and running

I got calld into a meeting, and have been there for the last little bit. If you consider this cowardly, than that is your own choice.

[endarkenment]

27. Cowardly? No, its annoying.

But shit happens. I think that you need to fix your poll, which it seems has been hijacked by some other poster, so that people know exactly what analysis you are talking about.

[Taxloss]

29. Try this:

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.

"If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli.

"Death to America. To the murderers of the prophets, the grandsons of apes and pigs,' we say: ... 'Death to Israel...'

"The sons of Zion, whom our God described as the sons of apes and pigs, will not be deterred unless there is a real holocaust, that will destroy all of them at once, together with the traitors – those who collaborate with them, the scum of this nation."

[endarkenment]

48. Ok Try this:

"Some Israeli politicians and leaders have used negative language when discussing Arabs and Palestinians. In 2004, Yehiel Hazan, an Israeli member of parliament, declared at the Knesset that "The Arabs are worms. You find them everywhere like worms, underground as well as above." and went on to describe them as "murderers" and "terrorists". <11> <12>. Raphael Eitan, former Israel Army Chief, once said "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." <13>. In 2004, then Deputy Defense Minister Ze'ev Boim asked "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." <14>.

...

In the article "The Arab Image in Hebrew School Textbooks" by professor Dan Bar-Tal of the Tel Aviv University makes a study of 124 textbooks used in Israeli schools and reports that "over the years, generations of Israeli Jews were taught a negative and often delegitimizing view of Arabs." The two main traits of Arabs in the textbooks are "primitiveness, inferiority in comparison to Jews" and "their violence, to characteristics like brutality, untrustworthiness, cruelty, fanaticism, treacherousness and aggressiveness.". In the 1980s and 1990s "Geography books for the elementary and junior high schools stereotype Arabs negatively, as primitive, dirty, agitated, aggressive, and hostile to Jews … history books in the elementary schools hardly mention Arabs … history textbooks of the high schools, the majority of which cover the Arab-Jewish conflict, stereotype the Arabs negatively. Arabs are presented as intransigent and uncompromising."<18>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism

The hate is bilateral.

[Taxloss]

49. "The hate is bilateral." Agreed. n/t

[Ravenseye]

20. Both are wrong

Why not option for that? That's the problem in my opinion. Hezbollah is wrong about Israel and Israel is wrong about Hezbollah. Both are wrong in what they think of the other, and how to handle the situation.

That's why people are dying.

[H2O Man]

21. No, I do not.

I voted "mostly wrong," because I believe that is closest to "in significant error."

[bryant69]

22. I thoguht about breaking it up this way

A. They are wrong in both their analysis of the problem and in their solution
B. They are right in their analysis of the problem, but not in their solution
C. They are wrong in their analysis of the problem, but right in the solution
D. They are right in both their analysis of the problem and in their solution.

Seemed a little bit on the nose (particularly since nobody would vote for C and D.

Bryant
Checkk it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Hezbollah's Goal Is To Make Israel Judenrein

Either by killing all of them or making it so unpleasant there they decide to leave. They just lack the means.


Oh, I am not jufifying or condemning the actions of any party. I am just defining Hezbollah's solution.

[H2O Man]

25. It's not possible

to have the "perfect" answer for every DUer in any good survey. I recognize that I am in a minority of one in my opinion, anyhow. (grin)

[Taxloss]

28. So far, 23 DUers see some truth in this:

"The sons of Zion, whom our God described as the sons of apes and pigs, will not be deterred unless there is a real holocaust, that will destroy all of them at once, together with the traitors – those who collaborate with them, the scum of this nation."

I hope that DU's software records who voted to agree with this statement, and the mods treat that poster as though they had said the above.

[bryant69]

32. Bullshit

And you know it. First of all if anybody has proven that that is the end all and be all of Hezbollah thought, I haven't seen it. It is the same as that one zionists statement about conquering all of the middle east; is that really indicitave of all Israelis or even all Zionists? And is your ugly statement really the complete philospophy of Hezbollah?

Secondly, your garden variety attempts at intimidation are probably noted as well.

Bryant

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Hitler And Nasrallah

Their rhetoric is indistinguishable.

I really don't know of any Israeli or Jewish movement that wants to kill all Muslims regardless of where they are.

[bryant69]

38. Well I suppose you don't

But you do know of an Israeli movement that has killed thousands of civilians seemingly without regard. An Israili movement that has killed far more people than Hezbollah has.

[martymar64]

53. try Kahane Chai

Look at the article ion the Gamla.il website, "The Logistics of Transfer"

A very telling look at what Israel has in store for ALL Arabs.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

69. You want to toss Ben Gurion into your list too?

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

Don't see much how he's any different.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. Those Statements Are Deplorable

However I don't like to be referred to as "weak and feeble minded" even if the characterization is generic, especially from some 5'5 200 pound dude who I could have dropped in the eighth grade.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Oh, And Those Statements Are Arguably Apocryphal

But I'm willing to entertain the notion that there are racist Jews and they are every bit as contemptible as their counterparts from other religions, races, or groups, etcetera.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Hmmm

"Sounds like you need an education that comes from outside your synagogue."


I don't go to a synagogue but it's nice to know you can see these things through your computer.


Kisses

DSB

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

78. Wherever you're getting your information,

You need to go somewhere else. That's the point.

*kisses* :puke:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. It's Interesting You Suggested I Get My Education From A Synagogue

and fucking revealing....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

81. You said you were Jewish.

So how "fucking revealing" is it, exactly, that you might learn something from a synogogue? I'd say the same for someone who spewed bullshit rhetoric about intelligent design, telling them to learn something from outside of their church.

So what's your point? Hiding behind alleged hatred now? Someone's sure studied the AIPAC handbook.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. I Said I Was Half Jewish

"So how "fucking revealing" is it, exactly, that you might learn something from a synogogue? I'd say the same for someone who spewed bullshit rhetoric about intelligent design, telling them to learn something from outside of their church.

So what's your point? Hiding behind alleged hatred now? Someone's sure studied the AIPAC handbook"


You're the one who (inferred) from that statement that I get my education from a synagogue.



"AIPAC handbook"


This gets better and better.


No- I get directions from the Mossad.

ROTFLMFAO

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

88. If you're done being an ass, would you mind answering the question?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. I Forgot The Question

I was distracted by fending off your ad hominem attacks.

Oh, I stand by my assertion that the quotes are apocryphal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

93. Again, you fail to read.

Are you saying a former Member of the Israeli Knesset lied in his biography of David Ben Gurion?

[Taxloss]

89. Interesting implication there.

It could be read that American Jews are told how to think in synagogues.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

92. No, it could not.

Nowhere did I say all American Jews are told how to think in synagogues.

What it does infer is that there are some American Jews (namely, the poster in question) who don't do anything thinking for themselves and only take the pro-Israeli position that they are likely to hear in their community centers. Just as there are a lot of Christian Americans that take Falwell's word as law.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Another Ad Hominem Attack

"What it does infer is that there are some American Jews (namely, the poster in question) who don't do anything thinking for themselves."

You are a very unpleasant fellow ....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

98. And so are you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. You Could At Least Come Up With Something Original

.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

102. I'd rather waste as little time on you as humanly possible right now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. You Did It

You came up with something original.

If you were in my office I'd give you a cookie.

[bryant69]

96. You see he's not accusing all Jews of being mind numbed automatons

Brainwashed by their religion into thinking a certain way.

Just DemocratSinceBirth.

Bryant

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. I Told Him I Don't Go Into Synagogue

And I don't think launching ad hominem attacks from the anonymity of a computer are funny.

[bryant69]

103. I think it's funny to make an attack

and try to backpeddle that way. Kind of pathetic - but I wasn't the one attacked.

Like the person who hoped the mods were keeping track of who voted teh wrong way on this poll.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. Where Have I Backpeddaled?

I'm not going to repeat the exercise where I arrived at my conclusion.

And don't lump me in with other posters. I speak for myself.

[bryant69]

115. I meant Vash the Stampede

Nobody gets me.

Vash the Stampede made a slightly bigoted comment, which you took offense at (understandably). I thought it was funny that he would try to defend his attack on you by claiming (as he did) that he's not attacking all Jews, just you.

It's no fun when you have to explain the joke.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

119. It's funnier if it was in the least bit true.

See below.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. I Don't Want To Be Misconstrued Here

Bigotry sucks regardless of the target.

Simply, if you hate Jews, Muslims, gays, blacks, etcetera, you suck in my book.

[bryant69]

121. I'm not bigoted

I hate everybody.

[Taxloss]

111. Who, me?

I certainly said it, it may have been the wrong thing to say, but I don't think I backpedalled. Hezbollah wants the destruction of Israel; I think "completely agreeing" with that analysis should be grounds for banning. But that's just the opinion of my line manager here at Mossad my rabbi's opinion, and I'm not going to throw a hissy fit or say DU has gone downhill if I don't get my way.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

118. Who's backpeddling?

I'm certainly not. I'm just not keen on having words put into my mouth. I said something very specifically to one person which involved one, and only one, person. If you want to try and tell me that there aren't people who go into their churches, mosques, synagogues, or or temple of worship and merely believe what they're told, I'm going to flat out call you a liar. And if you want to take that as backpeddling, that's certainly not my loss.

[bryant69]

122. Well I see you learned your lesson at Maoist Indoctrination Class

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

101. Exactly.

Only someone that is totally brainwashed could look at a quote recounted by a former Knesset Member and call it a lie.

[bryant69]

106. Or a quote by the current leader of Hezbollah, for example

Some people would totally write that off as inconsequential.

Why some of these partisans are so eager to discount the uglines in what they defend it's sickening.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

112. I hope you didn't say I called the Hezbollah comment a lie.

Because I most assuredly did not. I called it hideous as well. What I did say is that not all Hezbollah supporters exactly ascribe to Nasrallah's comments, which is most assuredly fact, in the same way that not all Israeli's ascribe to David Ben Gurion's hideous comments.

[bryant69]

117. Except that, having watched you on other posts,

I can tell that you do see Ben Gurions comments a clear statement for where Israel is going when it suits your purpose. While every single Israli may not share that opinion (cleary many don't), that comment does seem to suggest that Lebanon and the rest of Israels neighbors are right to smack it down in self defense.

No I'm not going to go look up all your posts to find out where you say this - I've learnd that that would accomplish nothing and I'm excessively lazy.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

124. Your laziness is inadequate - I'm calling you out.

Please, tell me where else I've used Ben Gurion's comments or made otherwise statements about them.

I was pretty damn clear in my use of Ben Gurion's quote. Hezbollah is NOT merely a composition of the words of its leader. If it were, then would Israel be exactly what David Ben Gurion's quote says it is, which it assuredly is not.

I don't see how I could be more clear on that statement, yet you willingly twist it in order to call me hateful and to declare yourself winner by default, which is quite a common tactic used when it comes to a debate on Israel's actions.

What's funny here is that I'm calling people out for their utter and complete closed-mindedness and being called a bigot in the process. Quite asinine, if you ask me.

[bryant69]

130. I have enormous stores of Laziness. I'm sure they are adaquete

to the task ahead.

But let's try aq complete reversal of position - I'm sorry I have you confused with someone else - of course you would never imply that Ben Gurion's quote justifies a militant response to Israel, it was only other people who have ever done that.

Calling people out for utter and complete closed mindedness while accusing them of having learned it all at Synagogue - yeah it's hard to see why that didn't go well for you.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

136. I ceased trying at that point.

I was more trying to get an answer to a direct question then. I've finally received an answer - that somehow a former official of the Israeli government would not only lie, but print complete libel against one of the most important men in Israeli history. I fail to see the motivation in that, but perhaps you'd be so kind as to help me out there.

If you can come up with a good reason why I shouldn't ridicule someone that ignorant, you're a better man than I am.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

146. You Really Have A Problem With Ad Hominem Attacks

I almost pity you for the demons you must have in your personal life that would inspire such attacks.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

151. I pity you for your repeated use of a term that you know not the meaning.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. " Your laziness is inadequate - I'm calling you out."

You should challenge him to a duel.


Maybe a boxing match which you can net cast, and the proceeds can go to the mythical synagogue that I never attend.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. The Ben Gurion Quotes Are Apocrphyal

and their veracity are hotly contested...

I can come up with as many links saying they are untrue but it's a waste of time trying to prove a negative.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

127. Of course it's a waste of time.

Because the sources are suspect. I've provided a credible source from a real book. You cannot do the same. That's why it's a waste of your time.

[bryant69]

133. A Real Book? Gosh! I guess you can't doubt that.

Wasn't protocals of the elders of isreal a real book? I mean technically?

[Taxloss]

135. More of a pamphlet, technically.

But it was printed, and some editions do have a nice hard cover.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. Those Quotes Are Hotly Contested

Just google the quotes in question:


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=We+must+use+terror%2C+assassination%2C+intimidation%2C+land+confiscation%2C+and+the+cutting+of+all+social+services+to+rid+the+Galilee+of+its+Arab+population.%22&btnG=Google+Search





http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=We+must+expel+Arabs+and+take+their+places.%22&btnG=Search

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

144. Hotly contested by people for which they are inconvenient.

Sorry, but I'll take the former Knesset Member over an AIPAC-offshoot anyday.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

139. Considering the author,

it's a lot less "doubtable" than these mythical sources of dubious origins that allegedly prove the author's statements apocryphal.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. I Think You Mean Imply.

I imply. You infer.

I wouldn't normally point "stuff" like that out but I'm not calling the intelligence of other posters into question.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

108. You get funnier and funnier...

Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): in·ferred; in·fer·ring
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French inferer, from Latin inferre, literally, to carry or bring into, from in- + ferre to carry -- more at BEAR
transitive verb
1 : to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises <we see smoke and infer fire -- L. A. White> -- compare IMPLY
2 : GUESS, SURMISE <your letter...allows me to infer that you are as well as ever -- O. W. Holmes died 1935>
3 a : to involve as a normal outcome of thought b : to point out : INDICATE <this doth infer the zeal I had to see him -- Shakespeare> <another survey...infers that two-thirds of all present computer installations are not paying for themselves -- H. R. Chellman>
4 : SUGGEST, HINT <are you inferring I'm incompetent?>
intransitive verb : to draw inferences <men...have observed, inferred, and reasoned...to all kinds of results -- John Dewey>

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. I Would Be "Implying" You're Incompetent

For instance if you were flatulating wildly I might infer there is an abundance of fiber in your diet.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

125. I've had few discussions more ignorant than this one.

What makes this worse is how arrogant you are in your ignorance.

Speaking of ignorance, it's time to use DU's namesake list.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. I'd Hate To Be On Any Of Your Lists But I'm Honored To Be On This One

heehawhee

[Taxloss]

134. Aw. I was enjoying that exchange.

You two should go on tour.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. .

-:(

[Taxloss]

142. Well, it's rare to see such entertaining flamewars.

You and Vash were actually both pretty funny. But I know it's no fun if you're actually involved, sorry.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

74. Nasrallah's comments are absolutely deplorable.

But they speak to Hezbollah's overall motive in a manner analogous to Ben Gurion's comments for Israel's overall motive. Do you think all Israelis intend to wipe out Arabs and use literally any means necessary to do so because David Ben Gurion said so? If not, I suggest you retract your remarks about Hezbollah.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I Don't Believe Ben Gurion Said That So I Can't Accept Your Premise

eom

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. Again, you doubt a former Knesset member?

He's the one who wrote the second Ben Gurion quote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ben-Zohar
http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mk_eng.asp?mk_individual_id_t=309

So stop dodging and answer the question. Or do you wish to hide behind your ignorance forever?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. I Am So Intimidated By Your Ad Hominem Attacks

Too bad I don't live with my mommy.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

84. Perhaps you should learn what ad hominem means.

Because quite frankly, I've answered all questions directly while you have deflected using personal attacks.

Pronunciation: (')ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. I'd Say

I'd say suggesting I was ignorant and that I get my education from a synagogue qualifies as an ad hominem attack, but what do I know because I got my education from a synagogue that I never attended.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

87. You obviously never learned to read either.

I even provided you with the definition of ad hominem. You're really not worth my time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. Break My Heart

Let's catalogue your ad hominem attacks

1) Gets education solely from a synagogue (that he never attended)

2) Is informed by a group, AIPAC, (which he is not informed by).

3) Can't read

4) Is ignorant.

Thank God you don't dislike me.

[Taxloss]

97. There's a subtle but important difference here.

Hezbollah isn't expected to negotiate with Ben Gurion, or any of the others. But Israel is expected to negotiate with Nasrallah.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

105. Do you know who David Ben Gurion is?

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=david+ben+gurion&btnG=Google+Search

[Taxloss]

113. Yes. And I can guarantee he will not be involved in the

solution to the Lebanon crisis.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

129. Neither will Hezbollah's leader, most likely.

[Taxloss]

132. Which is part of the problem.

Hezbollah doesn't want peace.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

137. But neither does Israel.

[Taxloss]

35. We are plainly taking about different analyses here.

That is a quote from Nasrallah; what did you have in mind?

[Marie26]

37. How could you post this

without providing any information on what Hizbollah actually believes? What is the point of this poll?

[bryant69]

39. I did post it earlier

Although not in the initial post - I frankly assumed that most people at DU had done some basic research on the subject, at least enough to have an opinion. I see now that I was mistaken in this belief.

Here's the Wikipedia POst --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Here's their official website. --> http://www.alghaliboun.net/english/

Bryant

[Taxloss]

41. Well, Nasrallah does run the show, one can reasonably expect that his

views are not uncharacteristic of those of the organisation. Plus, you should examine the agenda of Hezbollah's External Security Organisation, which is the bit that makes the rest of the organisation look moderate and reasonable.

"I am against reconciliation with Israel" - Hassan Nasrallah

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Well -What Do You Think Of Nasrallah's Analysis Now That You Researched It

eom

[bryant69]

44. It's just another piece of the puzzle

Like the Civilians Israel is killing, I suppose.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. What

What does Israeli bombing have to do with Nasrallah opining that (all) Jews are "feeble minded and weak" and "descendants of apes and pigs"?

[bryant69]

47. I'm working on my grand unified theory of the Isreal/Middle east

conflict - this poll was anther step in that direction.

Bryant

[Taxloss]

46. But your poll was about Hezbollah, not Israel.

There are plenty of threads discussing Israel's crimes.

On edit: Bryan, I hope you're not ignoring me because I greatly enjoy and value your contributions, and have done since before I joined and was a mere lurker.

[bryant69]

50. I'm not ignoring you -

I don't think you can look at either side of this conflict without keeping it all in mind - that's the only way to get yourself suficiently enraged at the entire universe.

[Marie26]

51. So, what is Hizbollah's analysis

of Israel? You've just posted very general links to Wikipedia & Hizbollah's website. What is Hiz.'s analysis, exactly? You must know, in order to have posted this poll. Yet when questioned, you get very vague. I could search the entire Hiz. website & Internet to find what their opinion is, but it's kind of odd that you can't tell me.

[bryant69]

55. Why must i know?

I have to be an expert in Hezbollah to post a poll on them?

Bryant

[Marie26]

60. You posted the poll!

How could you post a poll asking people if they agree w/Hiz. analysis when you don't even know what that is? Why do that?

[bryant69]

64. I'm not happy unless I"m annoying someone

No - in seriousness - the poll isn't about comparing what Hezbollah actually says - even if I attempted that I would be accused by one side or the other of cherry picking or naivite or anti arab bigotry or antisemite bigotry or something or other. Rather this poll is about perceptions of what Hezbollah says. What do most Democratic Undergrounders percieve Hezbollah's message to be. Putting my own definition out there messes up the whole point to it.

After all if I posted "Hezbollah says that all Jews need to be dstroyed; agree or disagree?" I'd get a completely different set of responses from "Hezbollah characterizes the current conflict as being largely Israels fault."

Bryant

[Marie26]

52. Maybe they didn't mean to.

The OP didn't provide any facts in the poll, so it became basically "Do you like Israel or not?"

[Taxloss]

54. That's true, and I think that's part of the problem here.

A lot of people really don't know much about Hezbollah other than the fact that it's fighting Israel and many Lebanese regard it highly.

[Marie26]

33. Yay Hizbollah!

:sarcasm: Do you know what Hizbollah's analysis of Israel is? If not, how can you agree or disagree with it? Since the OP didn't provide what Hizbollah's stance actually is, I'm including a brief statement.

"Hizballah is dedicated to liberating Jerusalem and eliminating Israel, and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon. Nonetheless, Hizballah has actively participated in Lebanon’s political system since 1992. This radical Shia is dedicated to creation of Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and removal of all non-Islamic influences from area. It is strongly anti-Western and anti-Israeli".

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm

[ButterflyBlood]

56. Hezbollah wants to destroy Israel

They weren't satisfied with Israel pulling out of Lebanon, they won't be satisfied by Israel pulling back to the 1967 borders. They won't be satisfied till there isn't a single Jew left in the area.

So while I do oppose Israel's actions, Hezbollah is completely wrong.

[oc2002]

70. Israel wants to destroy Hezbollah.

They weren't satisfied with Hezbolla democratic elections, they won't be satisfied by return of captured soldiers. They won't be satisfied till there isn't a single Palestinian left in the area.

So, you see, there are two sides to the story.

[bryant69]

71. I think you mean Hamas.

[ButterflyBlood]

150. You don't even know the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas!

But regardless, there's a big difference between wanting the destruction of a terrorist group, and the destruction of an entire nation.

[lastliberalintexas]

58. Other

At this point in time, the leadership of Hezbollah is just as evil and malicious as the leadership of Israel. How much the people of the Arab world and the Israelis agree with their respective leaders is up for dispute.

[LaPera]

83. This pollis so obviously slanted it's a fucking joke!!!!

[bryant69]

94. I'm glad to bring a little amusement into your life.

[newyorican]

109. No

But then again, I don't agree with Israels analysis of Hezbollah either.

[Fire Walk With Me]

123. Someone said that the land is God's, and that such has been forgotten.

[Beelzebud]

131. I think BOTH SIDES are a bunch of mass murderers! Hows that?

Wow imagine that. I can look at it objectively from an outsider's perspective, and declare BOTH SIDES to be completely insane, and a bunch of mass murderers.

[bryant69]

143. That's more or less my opinion as well.

And that we are exactly like them, except in a different situation.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

145. Sounds pretty good to me.

My big problem is that we villify one and absolve (and highly fund) the other.