The Constitution Hanging on By A Thread and the White Horse Prophecy

[helderheid]

I urged my parents to watch this video yesterday:

rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/ap072906_theories.rm

One of the panalists is a BYU professor. Though I live in Utah, I was not raised Mormon and know very little about the religion, nor am I interested in becoming Mormon. My father (adopted was my Step father) however, was raised Mormon. After watching this video (and thanking me for encouraging him to do so), my father called me and asked if I knew about the "White Horse Prophecy". I answered I did not.

According to my father, Joseph Smith spoke of the "White Horse Prophecy" where the United States would have a constitutional crisis and be "Hanging on by a Thread" but that the Mormons would swoop in and take over the government and save the Republic. (Mitt Romney anyone? Wonder what they'll do when he doesn't get the nomination!)

Professor Jones mentioned several times during the panel discussion from that video that the Constitution was hanging on by a thread but it wasn't dead yet. We still had it and we could get our government back.

I found this facinating. As I told him (he is no longer a Mormon and was formally excommunicated many many years ago), "Well, let them be right. So long as I can still drink my coffee and wine, whatever! At least I know I won't be going to hell!"

Anyway I found that interesting and thought my fellow DUers would to.

Sites about the White Horse Prophecy:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/whitehorseprophecy.htm
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon13.html
http://members.aol.com/acadac/talks/hang.htm
http://members.aol.com/acadac/refs/whp.html
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdf

Many more on Google

[helderheid]

1. Any LDS DUers know about this?

[Sammy Pepys]

5. Never heard of it....n/t

....

[ryanus]

7. I know much about this

Hello. I am a lurker, but I probably should comment on this since I am very familiar with this.

First, the Constitution hanging by a thread and the White Horse prophecy are not official doctrine. This does not mean the church or the members don't believe it, but it does mean that it is not official endorsed or taught. Generally, church doctrine must be either explcitly set forth in scripture or declared by church leaders in their official capacities and presented to the general membership for acceptance as being doctrine. There are lots of journals and other writings of people who heard Joseph Smith say something, or taught something one Sunday, or claim to have some writings by him. They may all be true, but the church does not automaticaly adopt them as part of official doctrine.

There is no direct quote of what Joseph Smith said about the Constitution hanging by a thread. It all comes from second-hand references, although the references are prettly reliable. Brigham Young and other LDS Apostles have in offical speeches said what they remember Joepsh Smith saying about this. The message was that the United States would face a crisis (possibly several along the way) and eventually the situation would be so bad that it would be like the Constitution is hanging by a single thread. The elders of the church would rise and save it, possibly. Ezra Taft Benson, a former President of the Church, refered to this a few times in official speeches and commented that Joesph Smith didn't say that the church would save the Constitution, but that the elders would. This, he said, seemed to imply that it might not be an official church effort, but just members of the church becoming active to this effort.

When Orrin Hatch was running (or thinking about running) for President he made some veiled reference to all this that members caught onto, but he said it more like he was poking fun at the idea. As far as Mit Romney is concerned, I don't think the general church membership thinks that the Constitution is yet hanging by a thread, so we don't need anyone, including Romney, to save it. For the members that do think the Consitution is hanging by a thread now, I don't think they think Romney is a guy who would save it, but probably would do the opposite.

Let me more if you'd like more info\analysis.

[Mojorabbit]

8. Thanks for the info

and welcome to DU!

[helderheid]

9. Big thanks to you and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[helderheid]

11. I wonder if the "White Horse" was the Great Salt Lake and the

salt flats. Just wondering. Have you heard any speculation on that?

[newyawker99]

26. Hi ryanus!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[notadmblnd]

2. as with any other religion

they all want desperately for their prophesies to be fulfilled. They need so bad to have validation that their god exist. Otherwise, every thing they done or not done because of their fear of god, was just a waste of time.

[gratuitous]

14. I don't think that's the sole province of the religious

But there is a pronounced strain in Christendom that's eager for the shitstorm to come down on everyone else's noggin whilst they float away, saved by their faith in a creator who brought all this suffering and misery about just so they could get away clean. It's a self absorption that Christianity (at least as I read the Bible, discuss it in my congregation, and live it in my life) is supposed to be against. Christianity is supposed to free folks from preoccupation with the self to free us to be charitable to one another, and put others' needs ahead of our own comfort. This sickening display by a segment of the fundamentalist sector is really a manifestation of the spirit of anti-christ, which says in effect "Screw all the rest of you, I got mine!"

But as I said in my subject line, I don't find that sentiment to be monopolized by the publicly pious.

[sallyseven]

3. If mittins becomes president I am out of here.

He is worse than bush,

[theHandpuppet]

4. On the day the Mormons swoop in and take over the government...

... just shoot me if I can't make it across the border to Canada in time.

[helderheid]

6. *giggle*

[happyslug]

10. Early in LDS history they were very Militaristic

WHile the Mormons claim they became Militaristic in response to non-Mormon opposition to them, the record is not as clear. The Mormon were a tight group of people who started to train together as a Military unit. This history is Complicated by the Anti-Mason Movement of the 1830s. In 1827 an Ex-Mason had reviled the secret rituals of the Masons, and his local lodged members Kidnapped him and later killed him for it. The Murderers were acquitted by a Mason dominated Judge and Jury. This started a Huge Anti Secret Societies movement in the US leading to the raise of the Anti-Mason Party.

Now the Mormons adopted many rituals that look like they were derived from Masonic rituals, thus the Anti-Mason movement of the 1830s might have been viewed as Anti-Mormon by the Mormons (In fact the Anti-Mason party was more anti-Secret Society than Anti-Mason, even nominating a former mason as their Presidential Candidate in 1832). Thus the Mormons may have just been reacting to the growing Anti Secret Society movement when they decided to arm themselves. This was further complicated by the tendency of Mormons NOT to want to deal with Non-Mormons, further putting them away from the rest of Society.

More on the Anti-Mason Party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Masonic_Party
http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=844

Anyway, no matter what cause the Militarization of the Mormons, it happened and they even fortified the town they were living in, restricting who can come in a trade and who could not. When the Mormons were outlawed by the Missouri Governor in the 1830s it was more to do with the fact they were the strongest single Military force in Missouri AND they had no dealings with the rest of society than any real hostility to the Mormon Religion per se.

Anyway, this militaristic attitude continued for many years and in many ways maintained to this day and is reflected in this legend. A good Mormon has to keep a years worth of food just in case it might be needed during a crisis. This by itself in NOT bad Idea, people should be prepared in case of a disaster, but with the Mormon it is tied in with their belief they are the new promise people who God intend to take over this Country at a time of criss. In many ways the Mormons are waiting for that time and try to keep their members ready to act at that time. By making sure they members have a years worth of Food means that during a Crisis the Mormons will be able to move while everyone else is looking for they next meal.

During the Mexican War, the Mormon joined the US Army as the Mormon Battalion and fought throughout the Southwest. The Bonus money for enlisting was used by Joseph Smith and most of the rest of the mormons to move to Utah. As to the troops they had a very good reputation during the Mexican war, showing a level of professionalism equaling the units that after the Civil War would become the National Guard and even the Regular Army (The US Militia was NOT used in the Mexican war, only "Volunteer" Units were used to supplement the Regular US Army). This level of professionalism was maintain throughout the mid 1800s (and might even be maintained today as far as I know, through I have NOT read anything about Mormon Militarism since 1859 when it was dropped as part of the deal to get the US Army out of Utah).

As I said, I have NOT read anything more current than 1859 as to the Mormons maintaining troops independent of the National Guard, but aspects of their former militarism can still be seen in they storing of Food and these legends.

Just some comment on Early LDS history and these legends.

[ryanus]

12. That's right

Good info. I would add that the Mormons formed military units in places where there really wasn't a strong military presence, like Missouri in the 1830's, Illinois in 1840's, and then Utah in the 1850's+ where no one but trappers and Indians ever had gone and was outside of the United States. They did not form a military unit in Ohio or New York.

The overall attitude of the Mormons has changed over time. When there were hostilities between the Mormons and the US army or state militia, there was more of an expectation that there would be a showdown between them and others. There was more military organization and more secret meetings regarding them. At some times, like when Johnson's army was coming or polygamy was being prosecuted, there was more of an attitude of impending crisis. Pretty much after the Manifesto where the church declared they have stopped practicing polygamy, there was no talk about military organization or a conflict of force between Mormons and the government.

The years worth of food storage has changed a little bit over time too. It used to be seven years worth. Brigham Young said a lot about what he thought it would be like when the Mormons would have to actually use their food storage. This is where the quotes about people trading buckets of gold for buckets of wheat come from. The church's encouragement of its members to have food storage has continued until now, and after 911 there has been a little bit of renewed interest, but not much. The food storage companies have estimated that between 2 and 10% of Mormons in the United States actually have a years worth.

I wold also stress that there really is not much discussion about Mormons surviving on their food storage and no talk at all about a conflict between Mormons and others. Food storage is offically endorsed, but what it will be used for is not really discusses, just that it is a good idea.

[helderheid]

13. I sure appreciate your insights.

[ryanus]

15. One final thought...

I would say that the general notion in the LDS church is that the more apocalytic ideas in the church will probably come true, although it is not really known when or in what fashion. So they keep things like the Constitution hanging by a thread in the back of their minds, but most of them don't get too worried about it. There is this notion that the Lord is in control and how history unfolds in not really something they should worry about. LDS theology is millenial and apocalyptic, but I don't think many members are going to get upity unless the church leader were to say that they should do something very much out of the ordinary, which hasn't happened for about 100 years when polygamy was stopped.

There is an irony to all this. The LDS church has historically been very conservative and very much active in warning against efforts they preceived as hostile to the Constitution. There are many official speeches and books and even Sunday School lessons about the importance of protecting the principles in the Constitution. But suddenly (maybe not so suddenly), we get a President that does more to harm the Constitution than anyone else perhaps in history, yet the general church membership seems to have no problem with it, or at least feels it is all justified. So the irony may be that the Constitution is indeed hanging by a thread, but by a guy the general church membership endorses. There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on. It is not very surprising that the church leaders have said anything about the Bush admin because they almost never make direct references to any current events. But I must admit that this is a strange time in Mormondom, politically.

[helderheid]

17. I bet!

Well, thanks again for the insight. I'm ashamed I know so little about the LDS faith while living in Utah!

[ryanus]

18. Prof. Jones was one of my professors

at BYU. I also stopped by his office to say hi when I was in Provo a couple weeks ago. Very good guy.

[helderheid]

19. Small world! So did you catch the video of his as a panelist from

the original post?

[ryanus]

21. Not yet

I haven't watched much of that conference, but I have been following the whole issue pretty closely for awhile. I've seen all the other videos of Prof. Jones giving lectures on the subject, and others as well.

[helderheid]

22. In my opinion, he was by far the most impressive speaker. Very

charming to boot.

[KittyWampus]

16. Harry Reid is a Mormon

[helderheid]

20. Most certainly is. I got a picture with him at our 2005 JJ dinner

[helderheid]

24. bad hair day i KNOW.

[helderheid]

23. Curious kick. At LEAST watch the video.

[ryanus]

25. I watched half of it yesterday

and I'll watch the other half today. It's pretty good. I've heard all the panelists give basically the same information on Alex Jones' talk show, but it is good that all this stuff is on C-Span because it will reach a lot more people.

While watching Prof. Jones, I had the thought that if there is something to the idea of the elders rushing forth to save the constitution, Prof. Jones fits that better than anyone else that I can tell.