Israel is not deliberately killing Lebanese children

[oberliner]

Numerous posts have either implicity or directly suggested that the deaths of innocent civilian Lebanese children is something that is a desired goal of Israel in this conflict.

While I can completely understand those who strongly condemn Israel's recklessness and apparent disregard for the welfare of civilians in this conflict, to believe that Israel is genuinely and purposefully seeking to kill Lebanese children is absurd.

[leftofthedial]

1. why is it absurd?

[Karenina]

7. It's not absurd.

Simply stated, It's REALITY.

[INDIA]

69. So Israel is deliberately targeting and killing children?

You have no right to lecture ANYONE on reality. Enjoy your Fantasy Land. :eyes:

[bdamomma]

93. what blowing up innocent civilians,

this is all orchestrated by the US/Israel government, it is just to expand the war that bush wants to include Syria and Iran, what kind of shit is this, pre emptive shit is this our new doctrine to blow up other countries that have not done anything to us.

[blue collar welder]

132. no more than targeting

some christian group like lets say Waco?? where'nt those innocent civillans ?
By that I mean a shell from a tank or a bomb from a plane or a rocket from the ground could care less about who it kills. It's the people that make the decion to pull the trigger that have to know who or what the target is. And in this case, one side is shooting blindly into civillian areas,while the other side is at least making a effort to hit a choosen target.Now just because they they want to hit said target and some kids are being used as shields,as in waco,does'nt make it right.

[ProfessorGAC]

141. Christian Group?

The Davidians were the OPPOSITE of a christian group, because Koresh was promoting himself as the Messiah. By definition, he was the point of worship, not Jesus Christ. So, they were not Christians.

The rest of your mostly incoherent post becomes irrelevant when the basic premise is completely wrong.
The Professor

[Cvortex_10]

124. That tin foil hat is on to tight.

NC

[Zynx]

23. Because if that was their goal they could kill many many hundreds times

more.

[Karenina]

39. I keep reading that justification

and find it quite bizarre. :freak:

[Bretttido]

45. If that guy was a murderer, he would have killed more than one person!

:sarcasm:

[Mandate My Ass]

46. So because they haven't killed *all* the kids in Lebanon

is somehow proof that they aren't deliberately killing kids? At the very least they exhibit casual disregard for taking kids' lives.

[leftofthedial]

66. why is it absurd that perhaps they intentionally have killed

the ones they have killed?

So by your logic, the fact that Israel has nukes proves that it is absurd to think that they intentionally bombed infrastructure targets like bridges and the airport. After all, if their intention was to destroy infrastructure, they would have used nukes.

I think Israel intentionally have engaged in a campaign that they KNEW WITH CERTAINTY would kill many civilians, including children.

So has Hezbollah.

[Moochy]

117. because they are so good at killing innocents right?

gotcha?

[QuestionAll...]

2. just too many 'mistakes' have been made...

either way the choices are not flattering to the IDF as all.

delibertate targeting or total incompetency.

[panader0]

3. They are bombing deliberately

They are bombing indescriminately. There can be no doubt that innocents will be killed.

[Beaverhausen]

4. What color is the sky in your world?

:eyes:

[partylessinOhio]

5. That is absurd.

[LWolf]

6. They are not deliberately refraining from it, either. n/t

[mike_c]

8. it's not absurd at all-- Israel could stop the killing immediately...

...yet it continues, despite the all too predictable deaths of hundreds of non-combatants. If you know for a certainty that bombing civilian residences and shelters will kill hundreds of innocents, then you do it anyway, how does that differ from "deliberately killing Lebanese children?"

[Karenina]

15. And the IDF got its overnight express

package of DU tipped bombs from the U.S. :woohoo: Time to spread some dust around! Sure the kids might inhale some of it and die of the cancers it causes, but that really can't be helped. We don't mean for them to get sick and die. They've left us no other choice... With regrets,
:nuke:BOMBS AWAY!!!:nuke:

[Ian David]

20. How does Israel stop the rockets without shooting back? n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

37. recklessness can rise to the level of intent

and I'd further say since they haven't changed one thing since discovering all the dead babies yesterday morning, they have met that level.

[Ian David]

40. Okay, by comparing them to Nazis you've ended reasonable debate

Israel isn't shooting at civilians. They're shooting near civilians who are being used as human shields.

So, you're officially out of ideas?

Anyone else?

Rockets are aimed at you and your family, and the people launching them are hidden inside civilian areas.

I agree that shooting near civilians is wrong.

So, what do you do?

[Karmakaze]

54. No, they are shooting AT civilians.

They admit it. When you bomb a civilian apartment block, that is "shooting at civilians".

As for what you do, well the simple answer would be to agree to a ceasefire. I mean thats one quick way to stop the rockets without killing civilians.

[Mojorabbit]

75. Maybe stop occupying the palestians and treating them brutally??

Remove the excuse? Be an honest broker for peace?
http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me1.html

[Magical]

77. TALK

Immediate ceasefire...
Stops all killing...
Negotiate mutually assured security pact...
Repair damage...
Both sides apologise...
Shake hands...
Hug each other...
Cry

[HongKonger]

143. It's actually called asymetric warfare

And both sides are to blame. Don't forget Hizbollah is shooting from Trucks. And there was no KT's shot from Qada the night the IDF crushed the building and killed kids and elderly people.

Israel is also launching their own missiles from near Israeli Arab villages in the north.

You will find most of the deaths in Israel to be IDF and Israeli Arabs.

And this also sounds rather ugly - this one poor guy explained.

...Following the fatal rocket barrage that struck Nazareth Monday, residents accused the government of failing to warn the mostly Arab population to take cover in bomb shelters when the Katyushas started flying.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278550,00.html#n

and

...Another complained that the Israeli government wasn't asked why it didn't provide bomb shelters in Israeli Arab villages.

SNIP

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101410.html

[HongKonger]

144. Is Israel Using Arab Villages as Human Shields?

Notes from northern Israel

Is Israel Using Arab Villages as Human Shields?

By JONATHAN COOK

Counterpunch

Nazareth hit the international headlines for the first time in this vicious war being waged by Israel mostly on Lebanese civilians. Reporter Matthew Price, corseted in a blue flak jacket in Haifa, told BBC viewers that for the first time Hizbullah had targeted Nazareth late on Sunday. “Nazareth is a mostly Christian town”, he added, managing to cram into a single sentence of a few words two factual mistakes and a disturbing hint of incitement.

Whatever the precision of its rockets (and Nazareth’s residents are certainly worried enough about that), Hizbullah struck not at Nazareth but at a site some distance from Nazareth -- a site of strategic significance to Israel, though I cannot say more than that as we are now officially under martial law in the country’s north.

Matthew Price was also wrong about Nazareth being a “mostly Christian town”. During the 1948 war in which Israel’s army ethnically cleansed much of the surrounding area of Palestinians, Muslim villagers fled to Nazareth in search of sanctuary. Today, two-thirds of the city’s 75,000 inhabitants are Muslim -- or at least they are by the religious classification system imposed on all citizens by the Israeli authorities.

Which brings us to the nasty element of incitement from our BBC reporter.

Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel’s enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel’s Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields -- protection for Israel’s war machine.

SNIP

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook07192006.html

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. Easy-peasy. The number you're looking for is 242.

Negotiate.

Offer to withdraw to the Green Line, concede control over parts of Jerusalem, support the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, exchange political prisoners, negotiate a settlement on refugees, etc.

It would have the big advantages that 1) it wouldn't kill hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians and 2) it would actually stop the missiles, which invading Lebanon clearly won't.

There is one, and only one, possible solution to the Middle East problem.

[mike_c]

42. exactly correct and the best response in this thread....

eom

[Ian David]

44. The negotiations have been going on for years

In fact, as a result of those negotiations, Israel left Lebanon six years ago, and left the Gaza Stip six months ago.

Interestingly, the rockets have been coming from exactly those places that Israel gave-up as part of the negotiations.

Even more interestingly, the official policy of Hammas, which calls for the destruction of Isreal, is to get Israel to to give-up territory, and then immediately start using that territory to attack them from. Strangely enough, this is exactly what they've done.

But aside from that...

How long would we be willing to spend negotiating with Hammas if they were launching rockets from Canada into Chicago?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. As long as it took and as short as possible, if there was no alternative.

If, as is the case, there were no other way to stop the missiles, and invading Canada
would kill hundreds of civilians but not protect Chicago, then I'd start negotiating as soon as possible and not stop.

More to the point, though, there's nothing worthwhile about negotiating in and of itself. What counts is what you offer. Israel has, as you say, been willing to *negotiate* for a long while, but it has not yet been willing to offer very much - the furthest it's gone was the Camp David offer, which was still a long way from a viable Palestinian state.

[JackNewtown]

53. Israel didn't leave Gaza due to negotiations

Israel left unilaterally. Sharon publicly admitted, domestically, of course (the official story to the rest of the world was obviously much different) that the motivation for the Gaza withdrawal was to allow Israel to strengthen its grip on the occupied West Bank. The amount of resources being poured in to support 7,500 settlers in Gaza was simply not worth it.

You make a good point about negotiating with a group if it were launching rockets from Canada into Chicago. You conveniently ignore the other side of such thinking. How would you react if another country controlled the vast majority of America? Would you have a love affair what that country and cheer on its control of your nation's land?

[Ian David]

62. So you're saying that Israel is The Evil Zionist Occupier? n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. The current government all three, the country 33%.

What Israel is doing is doing in both Lebanon and Palestine is clearly evil and is clearly occupation, and Kadima is clearly a Zionist party, so "evil zionist occupier" is a perfectly accurate description of the current Israeli government.


I don't think it's meaningful to describe a country as evil or zionist; those are statements of attitude.

People do talk about country X occupying country Y, so it is correct to describe "Israel" and not just "the Israeli government" as an "occupier".

[NuttyFluffers]

125. uncalled for comment.

i had to read and reread the previous poster's post to see what warranted that accusation. please do not use such heated rhetoric unless a real foul has been commited. even if there were points that you could disagree with doesn't mean putting such words in people's mouths is proper. false accusations, be it matter of absense or degree, does no side any good.

[JackNewtown]

131. thanks, I agree nt

[JackNewtown]

130. That is a shameless attack

Of course, it is very difficult to publicly defend occupying other people's lands, so I can understand why you didn't even attempt to do that...

[Moochy]

118. And they have been subverted by both sides at various times n/t

[Ms. Clio]

96. thanks for this post and others downthread

this sounds very rational to me.

[Karmakaze]

50. How about agreeing to a ceasefire?

That could work.

[azurnoir]

The ones that killed

23 people over a 6 year period, 15 of whom were IDF? Or the ones now? Either way it gives one pause that Israel would use an average death rate of 3.34 yearly to cause the destruction that has been seen in the past 3 weeks. Would they deliberately target children, no but mainly because it would be hard to know where large concentrations of children are answer this-Is Israel aware that it is almost a certainty that some of the adult Hezbollah fighters of today were childhood survivors of Shatila and Sabra 24 years ago?

[TheModernTerrorist]

121. an eye for an eye makes the world go blind

maybe a little diplomacy is needed? :shrug:

[JCMach1]

Would you back your car up if children were playing in your driveway?

The same applies here...

[Cassandra]

24. Some people do.

Do we haul them away for murder?

[MrTriumph]

34. If they do it 500 times, yes, they are charged with murder

x

[niyad]

9. and you know this for a fact on what evidence?

[Mandate My Ass]

10. Those crotchety Lebanese

Bitching and moaning over their dead babies. It's getting so tedious. Israel is honorably defending itself and all they do is moan and groan over trivialities. :eyes:

[QuestionAll...]

13. its a sign of weakness to get 'emotional' over such matters.

A poster actually said almost these very words to me in defense of the IDF and war in general.

I see crazy people.

[Mandate My Ass]

19. Yes it is, you're right

Yesterday, the Israeli ambassador to the UN said that Lebanese sleep with bombs and when you sleep with bombs you can't expect to wake up in the morning. Israelis babies sleep in bomb shelters because of those wicked Lebanese babies.

[QuestionAll...]

30. what a fuggin bastard.

just when I think my disgust is about topped up something like this comes up.

it's almost like Israel wants to be as popular as bush has become by these stupid heartless (and probably well thought out) statements.

There Is Something Very Strange Happening - the US and Israel Want To Be Hated.

[bdamomma]

94. I wouldn't call dead civilians tedious.

[Moochy]

120. Maybe the OP would?

[KingFlorez]

11. Why would they not do it on purpose?

They are trying to make a point, so they are harming civilians. Israel is not a country with integrity, at least not right now.

[CJCRANE]

12. What do you expect to happen

when you drop a bomb on a house or apartment block?

[Xipe Totec]

14. What a relief!

:eyes:

[Ian David]

16. Next they'll be accused of poisoning wells and spreading plague, too

[Karenina]

48. Hmmm... That was a pretty good hit

on those storage tanks! Now the entire coastline has been degraded, despoiled and yes, poisoned. The spreading of plague will take a few weeks of a million displaced people rubbing shoulders without adequate food or water.

[China_cat]

17. They targeted Red Cross ambulances

why wouldn't they target children? Especially those who happen to be in houses or shelters with their (adult) parents.

Edited to add...and they are using white phosphorus on those civilian targets. I guess if you accidently DON'T kill them, you can just make whatever's left of their lives a nightmare.

[LeftHander]

18. Oh okay then those 34 dead children are no porblem then...

Silly me....of course the mission planners didn't select a shelter. Of course the pilots weren't briefed on the target. Pg course the flight crew didn't arm the plane with bombs effective on hardened shelters. Of course the pilots and flight technicians didn't program the target coordinates into the planes on board targeting computer. Of course the piolots made a huge error and simply paniced and dropped the payload anywhere....

Riiiigggggghhhhht....tell me another one.

[cassiepriam]

21. Just like the US is not deliberately raping, murdering and torturing. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. No, not like that.

The US policy in Iraq is to minimise civilian casualties while fullfilling other goals. There have been plenty of examples of individual soldiers committing atrocities, and clearly minimising civilian casualties has been neither a terribly high priority nor persued terribly well, but nevertheless there is no evidence that American policy is to *deliberately* inflict civilian casualties.

It does, however, seem probable that Israel is deliberately inflicting civilian casualties in Lebanon, in an attempt to cow the Lebanese into opposing Hezbollah.

[Karenina]

55. In my book, the use of depleted uranium

is the DELIBERATE infliction of civilian casualties. Torture is also U.S. "policy" as exhibited by renditions and the shameful prisons.

[Karmakaze]

59. Shock and Awe.

Of course there is evidence the US military deliberatly inflicted civilian casualties. You don't bomb the fuck out of a densely packed city with the biggest conventional bombs ever dropped unless you are trying to kill everything, civilian and soldier alike.

[bvar22]

108. BS

Google Fallujah.

[rhiannon55]

123. Why are people who critcize Israeli aggression called anti-Semitic?

Aren't Lebanese and Palestinian people also Semitic?

In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical name "Shem") was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Assyrian, Akkadian, Hebrew, Maltese, Syriac, Tigrinya, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

[jayfish]

22. They Are Either Doing It On Purpose...

or they are so incompetent with their advanced, "pin-point" weapons as to make them no better as a military outfit than Hezbollah.
Which is it?

Jay

[JackNewtown]

56. Don't expect an answer nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. I'm afraid I disagree. I think Israel is deliberately killing children.

The fact that Israel has targetted things such as bridges, grain silos, hospitals and apartment buildings with its rockets makes me fairly confident that it is deliberately trying to inflict civilian casualties, so as to terrorise the Lebanese into turning on Hezbollah.

[rhiannon55]

27. Bombing populated areas in order to "get" some bad guys

who may be hiding there is immoral and stupid.

Regardless of the intention, hundreds of innocent people are dead.

Excusing this horrible behavior because the bombers may not have "meant" to do it is also immoral and stupid.

[bdamomma]

97. this all comes out of the bush handbook

kill all terrorists, even women and children. what if it was happening to american children?

[Mr_Spock]

28. Will this bring them back to life?

Killing is evil and waging war kills, therefore...

[Nimrod2005]

29. Right, and how about the UN post, and how about the Lebanese army vehicle

They have apologized for each one of these...All within the past 24/48 hours.

Israel aims to terrorize.

[blonndee]

32. What EVIDENCE brings you to this conclusion? n/t

[catmother]

33. agreed. hizbollah hides in civilian areas. so who's killing who?

if you want to blame someone blame Hizbollah.

[Karenina]

35. Had enough?

Insist for whatever reasons you must that the IDF has some sort of moral superiority. But don't be outraged when others, who include Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews AND Wiccans, insist that it's a LUDICROUS ASSERTION.

[northzax]

36. yes, one is homicide

the other is negligent homicide. both are felonies in the US.

[breakaleg]

41. Whether it's a desired goal or not, the result is the same

If you fire rockets into civilian areas, then civilians will die. It's that simple.

There are no excuses or justifications that will make that acceptable.

They are responsible for every child's death regardless.

[MadHound]

43. Whether they're deliberately targeting children or

Simply indiscriminately bombing the shit out of civilians, it still boils down to the fact that what Israel is doing is a morally reprehensible crime. Especially in light of the fact that Israel did and still does have other options for dealing with this situation, namely negotiating a prisoner exchange. They have done this time and again, in peace, with nobody losing their life or getting hurt.

Yet this time Israel decided to unleash the dogs of war, and in their bloodlust they are either directly targeting civilians, children included, or they are just bombing indiscriminately and are causing massive civilian casualties. Either way, the final result is the same, dead and injured civilians, children included. And either way, what they're doing is both criminal and morally reprehensible.

[bdamomma]

99. plus the US is supplying Israel with our bombs

and this bush regime is pronouncing their undying support of Israel, and we have a man in office who just does not give a shit about human life, and won't call for a ceasefire.

[Karmakaze]

49. Why is it absurd? You believe terrorists do it, so why not the IDF?

What is so special about them that makes it impossible that they may actually be intentionally targetting civillians?

[Wonk]

51. and you're not deliberately trolling for angry responses to your threads.

I believe you, really I do. You're innocently posting what you honestly think and aren't being disingenuous in the least. That most people here are calling "bullshit" is just a sad misunderstanding, a failure to communicate if you will.

[oberliner]

64. you know what

Deliberately trolling for angry responses? That is certainly one possibility.

Here's another:

Hoping that those who post that the Israelis are so monstrous that they would target children deliberately are not in the majority here.

Hoping that there are some who feel that, horrific as the Israeli approach has been, that Israel is not a nation led by people who are so uniquely pathological that they would include the intentional killing of children as part of their military policy.

I know there are people who do not share that view of Israel, even as they condemn Israel's actions strongly and are completely against the war and want an immediate ceasefire.

Maybe this post is meant to encourage those individuals to make their voices heard.

[Ms. Clio]

95. This entire argument is a strawman

I don't believe that anyone is arguing that Israel is led by people who are anymore "uniquely pathological" than, say, Cheney or Rumsfeld.

[warrens]

52. No, not deliberately

But they don't give a shit who dies, either.

[LaPera]

57. No, the kids just got in the way...it's a shame the kids were too young

to find their way to the family backyard underground bunkers.

[MyNameGoesHere]

58. Yes they are.

They come out and say that hezbollah is hiding behind civilians then launch more rounds. Isarael admits it why can't you?

[jerry611]

61. It is a reality that people die in war

If you read a history book, any history book, you may be shocked and horrified at the fact that people die in a war. It's always been that way. And it will never change.

What's happening here is that you have a terrorist organization that is launching weapons from civilian locations. They are using civilians to prosecute their war because they know they can't win one-on-one on the battlefield against the Israeli army.

It's sad...it really is. But the people that are to blame for those civilian deaths is Hezbollah. Not Israel. Israel is only protecting their own citizens from incoming missiles. Hezbollah is purposely launching their rockets from civilian locations in hopes that the Israelis will hit the target, kill the women and children, and hope that gullible people like you buy the propaganda that Israel is targeting civilians.

[MyNameGoesHere]

65. that wasn't my response

it had to do with israel not knowing they were killing innocents. Bullshit. They know it and they do it end of story. The other side the same thing. You pull the trigger someones gonna get hurt. flowering over it doesnt make those people less dead.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

70. I strongly disagree.

Hezbollah is to blame for the people killed by rockets launched by Hezbollah.

Israel is to blame for the people killed by rockets launched by Israel.

Anything else is a hypocritical double standard.

Israel is not merely not "only" protecting their civilians from incoming missiles, they're not *even* protecting their civilians from incoming missiles. They've killed a great many civilians, but relatively few militants.

The evidence (the bombing of apartment buildings, hospitals, grain silos, ambulances, the bridges and roads that civilians would need to leave the area and the like) strongly suggests that Israel is deliberately inflicting civilian casualties to try to cow the Lebanese population into opposing Hezbollah.

[jerry611]

85. I seriously doubt that

I reject the argument that the Israeli military is intentionally targetting innocent women and children.

Where is your proof that the IDF if intentionally targetting innocents?

And if say Hezbollah launched a rocket at an Israeli apartment building and killed 60 Israeli women and children, would there be this much world-wide outrage? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! There is an extreme anti-Israeli bias throughout the entire world. So I'm sorry, but I cannot accept your premise unless you show me documented and undisputable evidence to show that the Israeli defense force is intentionally targetting innocent civilians who are not being used as human shields by terrorist organizations.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

92. What?

Israel has killed hundreds of civilians, Hezbollah has killed 20, outrage is overwhelming directed at Hezbollah while Israel continues to have the support of the US, EU and UN, and you think that if Hezbollah killed *more* people then it would be supported.

There is undoubtedly a massive double standard at play in terms of international condemnation, and it isn't against Israel.

I have no proof that Israel is intentionally killing civilians, and I'm far from 100% certain, but that's definately the way to take an even-odds bet given the evidence.

[Ms. Clio]

86. Perhaps you should read what a genuine expert says

ISRAEL IS LOSING.

William S. Lind
Welcome to My Parlor

Welcome to my parlor, says the Hezbollah spider to the Israeli fly. The Israeli high command continues to express its faith in the foxfire of air power to destroy Hezbollah, but, as always, it’s not working. Lebanon is taking a pounding, to be sure, but Lebanon is not Hezbollah. Slowly, reluctantly, Israel is edging toward a ground invasion of Lebanon, for which Hezbollah devoutly prays. When air power fails, what other choice will Israel have?

A story in the July 24 Cleveland Plain Dealer gives a good idea of what awaits the IDF once it crosses the border in earnest. Israeli ground forces have been fighting for days to take Maroun al-Ras, a small village less than 500 yards into Lebanon. The battle has not gone well. Israel has lost five or six troops dead, with undoubtedly more wounded. It still does not control the whole village. According to the Plain Dealer piece by Benjamin Harvey of AP, Officers at the scene confirmed there was still fighting to do.

They’re not fighting like we thought they would,” one soldier said. “They’re fighting harder. They’re good on their own ground….”

“It will take the summer to beat them,” said (Israeli soldier) Michael Sidorenko….

“They’re guerrillas. They’re very smart.”

“Guerrillas” may not be exactly the right term here. As best I can determine from the wilds of Cleveland, Ohio, Hezbollah thus far seems to be waging a conventional light infantry fight for Maroun al-Ras. The line between guerrilla and light infantry tactics is thin, but Hezbollah seems to be putting up a determined fight for a piece of terrain, which guerrillas usually don’t do, because they can’t. The fact that Hezbollah can points to how far this 4GW entity has evolved.

http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_7_28_06.htm

[Strawman]

60. They are killing powerless, innocent people

and it's wrong. "Deliberate" or not.

"Deliberate" is certainly not the word I would choose to describe the Israeli bombing. Personally I believe the bombing displays an appalling lack of care and deliberation at avoiding civillian casualties.

Do I think that the Israeli gov't and military are getting off on killing innocents? No. I don't believe that. If killing innocents was the "deliberate" goal, thousands more would be Lebanese would be dead.

There. Happy now?

Ultimately, however, I'm more horrified by Israel going overboard with their bombing and killing than those who are going overboard with their stupid rhetoric.

Maybe when Israel gets a bit more precise with it's bombing and stops killing so many innocent civillians, I'll worry more about it's critics being more precise and accurate with their rhetoric.

[frylock]

63. drunk drivers don't deliberately kill people either..

I wish there was a feature to nominate the stupidest fucking posts as well.

[Mandate My Ass]

68. good idea, & stop drive by posters from starting flamebait threads

REvoke the "post thread" feature from their account.

[oberliner]

73. by all means

Much more useful discussions can be had around threads asking if AIPAC should be banned or saying that Jewish groups are accusing Mel Gibson of a hate crime.

I guess my pipe dream of seeing responses expressing agreement that condemnation of Israel is more meaningful if it is made within the confines of the things they are actually doing (which are bad enough) was just a pipe dream.

Maybe posting snarky replies questioning the right of a new member to post opinions which are not idenitical to one's own but are solidly progressive should warrant having one's "post thread" feature revoked from their account as well.

[bigtree]

67. one opinion

they sure don't show much concern. I don't mean their apologies, I mean with their actions.

I believe that they aren't distinguishing between the value of their stated target and the lives they've taken. I can't see how omitting the word 'deliberate' makes their actions, and intentions to continue just the same, any less heinous.

All the same, if you want to engage in semantics then you will have to accept that folks will have different perspectives on how intentional the killings of these civilians were. It was said by a senior Israeli official on the eve of the attack that those left in the south were akin to Hizbollah and subject to attack. Perfectly reckless language which should have consequence, especially when considering the intentions and awareness of those who ordered the strikes which killed the civilians.

Your defense is truly getting more and more desperate, oberliner.

[EFerrari]

71. I think your OP is a wish more than a reality.

It would be my wish, too, had I that luxury.

[KG]

74. when a country deliberatley targets densely populated urban areas

yes, they are deliberately killing the children in those areas.

[GreenTea]

76. Not since Dresden has the deliberate carnage and the taking of the lives

of the innocent been more horrible and brutal than in Lebanon. The bombing in areas where no military targets exist – where only civilians live. Worse yet, Israel was using internationally banned cluster bombs and white phosphorus on civilians. Vehicles full of women and children were deliberately targeted by missiles in what looks to be the extermination of the Lebanese population. You would have thought Israelis would have learned from the evils of Germany and WWII. We guess not. We find what is going on beyond comprehension – beyond humanity."

http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/trainwreck.php?Id=133

[oberliner]

79. The bombing of Dresden?

This is one weird quote.

Are the residents of Qana being compared to the residents of Dresden?

Does that make Israel the British & Americans and Lebanon the Germans in this analogy?

Israel is as evil as the U.S. army was in WWII?

I don't think that comparison will get as much traction as some of the others.

[GreenTea]

81. Yes...that's what I'm looking for "traction".

[meisje]

78. Free shots of Koolaid!!

[Solly Mack]

80. Definition of non - military targets that Israel is obligated to

abide by:


Additional Protocol I, Article 51:

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm


Article 51: Protection of the Civilian Population
The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:

- those which are not directed at a specific military objective;
- those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective;

- or those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

- an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;

- and an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

(this part means you don't bomb if the military advantage gained doesn't out-weigh the loss to civilian life - and did the attack on Qana gain Israel any military advantage at all? much less one that outweighed the loss of civilian life? Simply proclaiming that all civilians unable to leave must mean they are terrorists doesn't make it true. It doesn't in any way satisfy Israel's legal obligation.)

- Attacks against the civilian population or civilians by way of reprisals are prohibited.

- The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.

- Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57.

Chapter III: Civilian Objects

Article 52: General Protection of Civilian Objects

Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2.

Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.

In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used.




Please don't ask me to believe that Israel didn't know there were civilians in large numbers present at Qana.

Dropping leaflets in no way satisfies Israel's legal obligation to follow the law.

The right to defend yourself does not include the right to violate the law. Neither does the right to exist mean you can break the law.

And that goes for everyone who does break the law while claiming the right to defend themselves.

The acts of Hezbollah in no way relieves Israel of their own obligation to follow the law.

And you can't use the excuse that Israel is fighting a group that doesn't respect international law - Bush uses that exact same excuse about Iraq and Afghanistan to justify illegal detentions and torture,and Bush is just plain wrong.

I don't support the crimes of any country - for any reason. Those laws matter - and if they don't, then we are all screwed. Those laws are there for a reason - even when they restrict a nation from lashing out in outrage...especially because nations will lash out in outrage.

[McCamy Taylor]

82. We know, but their incompetent soldiers are responsible. Cease fire.

[newcriminal]

83. "Oops" doesn't quite cover it.

[Skidmore]

84. Recklessness? Well, I guess if you're being reckless there is no

intent to kill. Reckless gets you jail time here in the US when you injure someone with reckless driving.

BS. Israel intends to kill as many Lebanese as it can. Bottom line. To say anything else is a lie.

[Clarkie1]

87. You are, of course, 100% correct.

Even if one does not believe as I do that that most Israelis, including those in government, feel sorrow over the loss of innocent life, Israel loses strategically every time civilians die, and they know that.

[Xenotime]

88. They are directly targeting them...

That's how you get maximum impact. The people of Hezbola are being targeted for staring up for waht they know to be right.

[McCamy Taylor]

89. Israel drafts ALL kids, even ones not fit be soldiers. Mistakes are gonna

happen more in their army then in a normal army, especially of the "shoot first and ask questions later" variety since a lot of these kids do not have the guts to be soldiers. An all volunteer army self selects people who at least have nerves that are slightly more firm that jelly in crisis situations.

Israel's much ballyhooed Mean Lean Fighting Machine is a myth. It's "Position of Strength" is a joke. It has numbers and lots of weaponry but there are so many people manning its operations who are not fit to be soldiers that it is inevitable that innocents will be blown up. Even if they try to keep the cowards and morons way behind lines in non military posts, some of them will end up on the front lines.

Israel's fighting force is a lot like the one we shipped into Viet Nam in the 60's.

There is a reason the Pentagon does not want a draft and it isnt because the generals want to save the GOP political embarassment.

[Ms. Clio]

128. There was nothing wrong with the drafted army we sent to Viet Nam

in the 60s, anymore than there was anything wrong with the drafted army we sent to World War I or World War II. That's a very inaccurate and disturbing statement.

[tuvor]

90. But they still end up paying the ultimate price.

Deliberate or not, it's got to stop. On both sides.

[lostinacause]

91. People who think that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians should

read up the world wars; specifically firebombing. Cities were target with the intention of killing as many civilians as possible. Accepting some degree of civilian casualties is very different then firebombing cities. Anybody who equates these two as equal should really try to objectively analyze the situation.

[w4rma]

101. *You* may want another World War, lostinacause, but I don't. (nt)

[lostinacause]

113. Please do explain where I said that I wanted another World War.

You can disagree with the rational used by Israel with out accusing them of targeting civilians. In fact the dangers from escalating violence is far worse then the death of the civilians because many more innocent lives could be taken. Given the tactics that Hezbollah even a perfect plan would result in the death of civilians. (The perfect plan likely being some sort of joint action with or through the Lebanese government, the action potentially having a similar dynamic to a police raid as the structural organization of terror groups is similar to organized crime.)

[w4rma]

98. The Israeli leadership think *exactly* like Cheney and the other neo-cons

who have devastated both Iraq and the US with their belligerent and genocidal foreign policy.

[bdamomma]

102. this is being fuelled by our regime to expand the war

[MarkDevin]

100. Of course Israel is not deliberately killing Lebanese children!

Those dumb kids just keep getting in the way of all bombs Israel drops on their country. It's not like that's Israel's fault or anything. Geez...

[eridani]

103. Choosing recklessness = choosing to kill children.

No way around that.

[Warren Stupidity]

104. Oh what crap.

If you set out to level every building in an inhabited village you are deliberately condemning the inhabitants of that village, men women and children, to death. If you apply that policy to an entire region, you are engaged in an act of ethnic cleansing, of genocide. With the refugee count now approaching 1,000,000, the debate over Israeli intentions is over.

[Junkdrawer]

105. I'm sorry, but it appears that's exactly what they are doing...

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74379

[smoogatz]

106. Of course they are. They're bombing areas in which civilians live.

They are doing so deliberately. Among those civilians are women and children. The Israeli military and political leadership are well aware of that fact. When you drop a bomb on a city block, it kills the men, women and children inside indiscriminately. No one disputes that fact. They know that if they bomb civilian areas in Lebanon they will kill children, yet they bomb them anyway. That makes the killing of children by the Israelis deliberate. It is inarguable.

[tedzbear]

107. They just got in the way.

Oops! One more time Israel sez "We're not responsible!" even though they dropped the bombs.

:popcorn:

[dennis4868]

109. there are so many ignorant people on this board....

regading the middle east, especially Israel. The Jewish state would never purposefully murder innocent people. Yes, they have made mistakes but they are nt killing innocent people on purpose. I have family in the military and it hurts them so much to hear people saying all the things we are hearing here.

[Junkdrawer]

110. Juan Cole:

...

One hope the Israeli hawks appear to entertain is that they can permanently depopulate strips Lebanon south of the Litani river. Since most Shiites vote Hizbullah and offer political support and cover to it, fewer people means fewer assets for the party-militia. This project would require the total destruction of large numbers of villages and the permanent displacement of their inhabitants north to Beirut.

That is why the massacre at Qana occurred. The Israelis had bombed Qana 80 times. They were destroying all of its buildings. Therefore, of course, they destroyed the building where dozens of children and families were hiding. This tactic is both collective punishment and ethnic cleansing all at once. It is not only a matter, as the Israelis claim, of hitting Hizbullah rocket launchers. They are destroying all of the buildings.

...

http://www.juancole.com/

[Ms. Clio]

114. It's really starting to bother me, that all the self-proclaimed "experts"

who post here never seem to read Juan Cole at all.

[smoogatz]

111. Anytime you bomb civilian population areas, it's a given

that civilians will be killed, including children. It's called "collateral damage." The Israeli military and political leadership is perfectly aware that civilians--including children--will be killed when it bombs Beirut, or villages like Qana, yet they bomb such places anyway. They made a conscious decision to bomb civilian population centers, knowing that children and other innocent civilians would certainly be killed. That's about as deliberate as it gets.

[Disturbed]

115. I have placed the Israel "can do no wrong" posters on

Ignore. This issue more than any other has shown how many supposed Dems on DU are are as dense and ignorant as most Repugs and their knee jerk cult.

I feel that Israel has a right to exist but I cringe at their Govt. in power at this time aided by the Busholin Junta.

[jonnyblitz]

119. they are scary motherfuckers. I don't know why they think

people on a progressive site would support this shit. I have no respect for them at all.

[Lurking Dem]

140. Does that include

the Democratic Party platform?

[Warren Stupidity]

122. "The Jewish state would never purposefully murder innocent people"

Ah there it is: irrational exceptionalism. I'm sorry but the Israeli government is just as capable of vile acts as any other government, and they all have a history of killing innocents when it suits their purposes. Right now the Israeli government has seen fit to enact a policy of ethnic cleansing of the border region of southern Lebanon. That policy has created nearly 1,000,000 refugees and the enactment of this policy is based on terrorizing the population of the region through aerial bombardment in order to move them out of the region. In the process, through the deliberate acts of the Israeli government, innocent people are routinely being killed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

133. I agree about the presence of ignorant people.

Israel not merely would, but is, deliberately killing innocent civilians.

The IDF is an organisation whose activities include terrorism and the deliberate murder of civilians. If being told that fact hurts those of your family who are members of it, I'm afraid I regard that as a good thing - it may encourage them to leave it as soon as they can.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. yes because of course from all the countries in the middle east

it is israel that is somehow more moral.

though it occupies territories of other countries and callously kills civilians and children...yes its terrorism when hezbollah does it and when israel does it clearly we misunderstand her intentions


the fucking hypocrisy

[Lilith Velkor]

112. ...so stop saying that!

[Moochy]

116. lets see

what is the lethal blast radius?

where are the targets?

Are children inside the lethal blast radius?

Should this fact be known to Israel prior to targetting and dropping said bombs?

Me thinks yes.

Distancing oneself from the act of killing and having a nation to back you up and justify the murder of children does not make it just.

[GAPeace]

126. Or so it claims

Just as it claimed to not be deliberately ordering that the bones of children protesting during the Intifada were to be broken.

[jonnyblitz]

127. I have seen way to many video clips of settlers just tormenting

palestinians, throwing rocks in the windows of palestinian homes (you can hear the women screaming in terror) , little kids with yarmulkas kicking old palestinian ladies,IDF shooting kids throwing rocks, just pure racist bullshit. I believe people of this mindset have no problems killing people they have dehumanized. Too many people just don't know what really goes on in that country.

[Lindacooks]

129. "There's something wrong in a war where there are more dead children

than soldiers in uniform."

That's all that needs to be said.

[patcox2]

134. Lebanese children committing suicide to embarass Israel?

Thats it, these damn terrorist kids, deliberately throwing themselves in the path of missiles and shells in order to conduct their propaganda war by painting Israel as a killer of children. They will stop at nothing.

[smoogatz]

139. Right. Suicide propagandists!

Those wacky muslims, at it again.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

135. bullshit! this level of callousness tantamounts to intent

they may not have specificall targeted children but also did not care if children died.

[burythehatchet]

136. Here's what I don't understand

Why is it that we are bombarded with messages of how "they" want to kill Israeli children, but the vast majority of children that die are theirs. If my child had been killed by someone, I wuld would probably be screaming some very inflammatory things.

[Philosoraptor]

138. HA! best laugh of the day, thanks

[GeorgeGist]

142. Nuance it however you please.

But it's no accident that Israel is killing Lebanese children.