Question for black American DUers: RE: "Tar baby."

[The Backlash Cometh]

Do you feel the word, "Tar baby," is a racial slur?

Reference:

Mass. Gov. Romney Apologizes for Remark

``The best thing politically would be to stay as far away from that tar baby as I can,'' he told a crowd of about 100 supporters in Ames, Iowa.

Black leaders were outraged at his use of the term, which dates to the 19th century Uncle Remus stories, referring to a doll made of tar that traps Br'er Rabbit. It has come to be known as a way of describing a sticky mess, and has been used as a derogatory term for a black person.

``Tar baby is a totally inappropriate phrase in the 21st century,'' said Larry Jones, a black Republican and civil rights activist.

Romney's spokesman, Eric Fehrnstrom, said the governor was describing ``a sticky situation.''

``He was unaware that some people find the term objectionable and he's sorry if anyone's offended,'' Fehrnstrom said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-5984681,00.html

[Ian David]

1. Der Mittenfuhrer has really licked the snowflake baby this time. n/t

[sui generis]

2. snowflake, hell. crust-free wonderbread.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. It really is a shame if it is taken as a slur.

It's really a great story and gets its point across better than most.

[sallyseven]

7. It was code dear. Mittens is a slimy person

and most likely a racist. How dare he jump in the tunnel situation at this time. The thing has been leaking, parts falling for the three years he has pretended to be the governor. He has been running for president since he won the governorship.

[The Backlash Cometh]

Oh, I know that it has taken a new meaning, and we must be

sensitive to that. Much like the term, "Uncle Tom." Most people who launch it to insult someone, don't really understand that Uncle Tom was a brave figure who did whatever he had to do to protect the people he loved.

[GodlessBiker]

3. Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase knew it was an insult on SNL.

And Archie Bunker was using it as a slur a long time ago.

[calico1]

6. Archie Bunker was a TV character.

And it was done intentionally for the purpose of showing just how stupid and ignorant people like that come across.

[GodlessBiker]

150. I agree. But the term was known to be an insult even back then.

[Mabus]

5. He probably figured, since Tony Snow gets away with it

he could too.

fwiw, I was raised primarily in Oklahoma and grew up understanding that term to be a racial epithet.

on edit: What I find disturbing (but not surprising) is the recent resurge and defense of its usage by white GOP'ers. I view it as another of their attempts to insert their code words into the vocabulary. Southerners know how it was used and they are playing to them.

on second edit: changed "defensive" to "defense" in last paragraph.

[hfojvt]

15. I grew up reading Uncle Remus

and had no clue until I did some research or followed a link here after the Tony Snow hubballoo. People who do not know it's history are going to think it is harmless - a cultural reference.

[Prophet 451]

27. Makes sense

Since the South now controls the Republican party entirely and much of the political process in part, it makes sense that Repub would be trying to talk like Southerners.

Please note: I'm talking about the stereotype of Southerners, not necessarily real Southerners, some of whom are lovely people.

[Tarheel_Dem]

8. It's a slur....

It was a slur when Tony Snow said it, and it still is.

[Gruenemann]

9. Really, REALLY sad.

The Tar Baby is a character from what was originally an African Folk Tale, a story that has a lot to teach us about greed and revenge.

Incidentally, Little Black Sambo was from India, not Africa...

[merwin]

10. Exactly

[Solo_in_MD]

12. Its contextual more than anything else

Though the PC crowd will always be offended...I did not hear/read the statements in question. Claims of various words being "code" are often just PC camoflage.

[Misunderestimator]

25. I hate the phrase "PC crowd"

[marmar]

121. Me too...

As if being sensitive to what might offend others is this horrible burden.

[Solo_in_MD]

164. Good

No apologies here for being anti PC...Im a progressive
- The truth is at times offensive
- Those who suppress the truth since it might offend others are weak or have other agengdas
- People need to get thicker skins and be adults, and not fixate on offense when none was intended
- There is no right not to be offended.

Furthermore, IME, the PC crowd is not balanced...
- Offending some with "Gay Pride" is okay, but "Straight Pride" is offensive
- Cracker or Honky should be tolerated but niggardly (which is NOT RACIAL AT ALL) is intolerable
- Cartoons about Islam should not be published, but suppression of Maplethorpe's work is unacceptable
If the goal is not to offend, the effort should be balanced.

I have intentionally picked some of the most offensive examples I could have used, but suppression of speech and thought is about as anti progressive as you can get.

[marmar]

169. First off, cracker or honky IS offensive...I would never use it...

Thirdly, niggardly might be a word in the dictionary that denotatively has nothing to do with race, but this is America, and conotatively, it does. Is it so horrific to be conscious of that?
Furthermore, the same Danish newspaper that thought it was fine to publish anti-Islam cartoons, declined publishing anti-Christian cartoons. So on that point we agree, if the goal is not to offend, the effort should be balanced.

[Solo_in_MD]

171. Seems to me the PC crowd needs more of and education

I have not forgotten that a leading gay activist was run out of Wash DC government because a fool did not understand the meaning of the word niggardly. I can not countenance that

It wasn't the action of the Danish papers that I care about but the reaction in this country, including universities where they were suppressed that annoyed me.

Sorry, the truth offends and those who not speak it so as not to offend have sacrificed their right to speak freely and have seriously impacted mine as well.

[fishwax]

161. it's one of the right's most powerful tools

to attack any discussion of possible offense as "PC run amok." I hate that phrase too.

[fishwax]

160. of course, none of that negates the racist potential of tar baby or sambo

just as the origins of the swastika as a hindu symbol don't negate the overtones that the swastika has collected over the years.

And, incidentally, while Little Black Sambo was from India, the original illustrations for the book were inspired--indirectly--by the "blackface" tradition of representing blacks in America.

[Beelzebud]

11. It's a slur... WTF do you think tar baby means? Think about it...

Jesus fucking christ on a crutch...

[hedgehog]

13. For me "tar baby"

refers to the figure that Brer Fox molded out of tar to fool Brer Rabbit.

[Ian David]

14. Which was based on an old African folk tale...

about hugging something that looked like a little black baby.

The racist implication being that black babies look like they're made of tar.

I'm sure that black people in Africa thought it was hysterical until all those white people started showing up.

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. Was tar black back then?

I thought they used a sort of pine tar, which meant it would have looked honey colored?

[Ian David]

19. Ever been to LaBrea Tar Pits? n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. No. Where is it and when did it orginate?

Just asking the pine-tar question because I was surprised to learn that they didn't use commercial grade tar for tar and feathering. They used a form of pine resin.

[Ian David]

21. The Page Museum at La Brea Tar Pits

http://www.tarpits.org/

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. I don't think they used THAT kind of tar back in the South.

There was actually a pine resin concentration they made for daily use, which probably would have also been more hygienic.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Actually, black tar from the Pennsylvania oil fields was

commercially available, and it was used as a waterproof sealant for roofs and ships, starting in the 1820s. In a way it was partly responsible for the growth of the plantation system in the Carolinas, which had produced pine tar but the oil tar was cheaper and easier to produce, so the Carolinas turned more and more to tobacco and cotton.

At least, that's how I learned it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. That's good information. Certainly adds to the debate.

[hedgehog]

56. Drake drilled his oil well in Titusville in 1859

Just in time for my family to come over from Ireland and start working the oil fields.

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. How plentiful do you think this sort of tar would have been used

commercially by 1870? Seems kind of tight.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Apparently it wasn't made of tar in the original African folktale.

But of gum or wax.

I myself would like to see an original copy of this folktale.

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. I believe it was dated 1879. I wonder what the illustrations, if any,

looked like.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. The Joel Harris book, sure.

And Harris was a racist and slavery apologist.

[The Backlash Cometh]

50. Do you have a link?

I can well imagine that we was eventually labeled a racist since his Tar Baby has taken a racist connotation, but was he ever racist in his personal writings or public appearances? Do you have a link?

[Recursion]

61. Here's wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Chandler_Harris

The wiki page has a section on the controversy (or at least it did at time of linking). His writings indicate (to me at least) that he considered slavery regrettable in many ways but ultimately a "benevolent" institution. Some people also consider his attitude that black people needed a white writer to tweak and publish their stories to be racist (though the development of folklorism as a discipline -- thanks in no small part to his work -- seems to take some of the bite out of that view).

Certainly his works were some of the earliest "personal" looks at African Americans written by a white man. Uncle Remus's dialect may be a crude stereotype, but the character is not: he's actually a rather complex character with good and bad qualities. And, the white power structure of the south certainly takes its share of attacks in his books.

[hedgehog]

64. It should also be noted that Joel Chandler Harris lived at a time

when Anglo-Saxon whites were viewed as the top of the pyramid. He wasn't alone in his beliefs. The Irish, Italians, Mexicans, Poles and Slavs were all members of "lesser" races just as African-Americans were. I don't think we all really became "white" until after World War I. Read a biography of Joseph Kennedy sometime and you'll see how he had to fight against those attitudes most of his life.

[The Backlash Cometh]

66. Just playing D.A. here:

He was a white writer who published stories he learned from the black -folklore of the time. So the big question is, did the original stories from the African Americans include a tar baby? Did Joel just remain faithful to their stories and repeat what they said in regards to the Tar Baby? If so, that ends the debate on what his intentions were because the African Americans created the image.

I won't disagree that it later was taken as a racial slur, but that doesn't seem to be the origin of the Tar Baby.

[Recursion]

72. I'm confused by this whole line of questioning

He was a racist, but that doesn't mean his books are garbage or that he didn't write stories that are worth hearing. There's a strand of puritanism on this subject that disturbs me, where people will refuse to consider any idea by anyone who is a racist.

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. What I don't understand is, that this wasn't even his original work.

From what I've been gathering, these stories were black American folklore tales that were told by mouth from generation to generation and in Georgia, they were enjoyed by both white and black Americans. This writer just created an Uncle Remus and compiled them in a way that it stuck. That means that they originated in the EARLY 1800s and the Tar baby wasn't even a creation of the white writer. It was stolen from black American folklore. It's very sad how this has completely eroded to where it is today.

[LostinVA]

102. THey were AFRICAN folktales

passed down from slave generation to slave generation... and thus into Freedom. Chandler stated he wrote the tales in slave "dialect" to preserve their "purity." Though I have no doubt he was a racist -- like most Americans, including Lincoln -- he was also a dedicated folklorist. Without Uncle Remus, many of these rich tales may have been lost to us. They are a DIRECT link for Americans of all colors to the slaves' historical past. I hate that this argument will stop people from reading "Uncle Remus."

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. On the contrary.

You may have opened a door that was closed to many people.

[LostinVA]

107. I hope so, because they are great stories

Including the "framing" of Uncle Remus.

[LostinVA]

87. It is directly based on an African folktale

[The Backlash Cometh]

94. I think that fact is eluding some people.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. I think the fact that it's origins have no significance...

on its use as a racial epithet is eluding some people.

[The Backlash Cometh]

97. I think it's a far-gone conclusion that IT HAS BECOME a racial epithet.

It wasn't originally because the story of the Tar baby came from African folklore.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. You mean a foregone conclusion?

Obviously most DUers think so.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/tar_baby.html

[The Backlash Cometh]

108. Yes. Foregone. Sometimes I outdo myself.

The point is, that it never was originally meant to be.

[hiphopnation]

110. quite obviously

and at an alarming and shocking percentage

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. Now I'm confused.

Was the foregone conclusion that it was racist, or that it wasn't racist?

:hi:

And how many responding are black?

[hiphopnation]

112. lol

wait...it was...hold on...right!

OP thought it was a foregone conclusion that it had become an epithet

my understanding is that black representation on this board is low, compared to the national average.

but that is by no means conclusive. i have a feeling if only black people responded to this thread that it wouldn't even be flaming :shrug:

love ur sig name, btw

"a born again hooligan, only to be king again"

correct?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. You're correct.

I like the line about Chewebacca too, but I've gone and forgotten it.

[hiphopnation]

114. "i play my my enemys like a game of chess

no stress if you don't smoke cess"

the best hip hop lyric page on the web, if ya don't already know

www.ohhla.com

[LostinVA]

104. The story of the tarbaby is not racist

Even if some people use "tarbaby" as a racial slur.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Alice Walker: "Uncle Remus, No Friend of Mine."

Haven't got a link to it.

This is actually the subject of much literary discussion. You can find all sorts of stuff by googling.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. What google will never teach me, is how much of this people

already know, and what they don't know. That's what I'm learning here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Well, I couldn't tell you how much people know.

I'd think most people have vague memories of brer rabbit and his disneyified adventures from childrens books, the old cartoons, or Splash Mountain (which is fun, fun, fun!).

People who know a little more might now that the stories come from some guy named Uncle Remus.

Some of those people might now that Uncle Remus was actually a fictional character of Joel Chandler Harris. And likely aware of many other forms of racism from the time, minstrel shows, and so forth.

And mostly I think people jump to defend "tar baby" because they've got nostalgic sentiment for the beloved childhood figure. And they have some hangups about realizing the term can be both a beloved childhood story and a racist epithet.

At least that's what I know.

[The Backlash Cometh]

96. The only thing I'll add is this:

Only Uncle Remus was the creation of Joel Chandler Harris. Everything else was stolen from the African tales.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. stolen is the right word.

At best Harris exploited African Americans.

[The Backlash Cometh]

101. Who's going to argue with that?

Finally, agreement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. How many African Americans do you know who are really black?

Most are more honey colored.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Omigod. Have you ever read the story?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

147. I think it refers to the folk tale.

Which makes more sense in context?

"I never should have touched that (implication of contempt) african-american child".

or

"I never should have touched that thing that you can't let go of when you've touched it".

I think that the outrage at this is largely artificially manufactured, and will devalue the condemnation of genuine racist slurs.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. For those who've never read/heard the story. Here it is.

I had this story read to me many times when I was a kid. I never associated it with race and still don't.

THE WONDERFUL TAR BABY STORY

"Didn't the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?" asked the little boy the next evening.

"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn't hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin' down de road--lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity--dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin' 'long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Mawnin'!' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee - `nice wedder dis mawnin',' sezee.

"Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox he lay low.

"`How duz yo' sym'tums seem ter segashuate?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee.

"Brer Fox, he wink his eye slow, en lay low, en de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin'.

"'How you come on, den? Is you deaf?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Kaze if you is, I kin holler louder,' sezee.

"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"'You er stuck up, dat's w'at you is,' says Brer Rabbit, sezee, 'en I;m gwine ter kyore you, dat's w'at I'm a gwine ter do,' sezee.

"Brer Fox, he sorter chuckle in his stummick, he did, but Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nothin'.

"'I'm gwine ter larn you how ter talk ter 'spectubble folks ef hit's de las' ack,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Ef you don't take off dat hat en tell me howdy, I'm gwine ter bus' you wide open,' sezee.

"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Brer Rabbit keep on axin' 'im, en de Tar-Baby, she keep on sayin' nothin', twel present'y Brer Rabbit draw back wid his fis', he did, en blip he tuck 'er side er de head. Right dar's whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis' stuck, en he can't pull loose. De tar hilt 'im. But Tar-Baby, she stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Ef you don't lemme loose, I'll knock you agin,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, en wid dat he fotch 'er a wipe wid de udder han', en dat stuck. Tar-Baby, she ain'y sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Tu'n me loose, fo' I kick de natal stuffin' outen you,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, but de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin'. She des hilt on, en de Brer Rabbit lose de use er his feet in de same way. Brer Fox, he lay low. Den Brer Rabbit squall out dat ef de Tar-Baby don't tu'n 'im loose he butt 'er cranksided. En den he butted, en his head got stuck. Den Brer Fox, he sa'ntered fort', lookin' dez ez innercent ez wunner yo' mammy's mockin'-birds.

"`Howdy, Brer Rabbit,' sez Brer Fox, sezee. `You look sorter stuck up dis mawnin',' sezee, en den he rolled on de groun', en laft en laft twel he couldn't laff no mo'. `I speck you'll take dinner wid me dis time, Brer Rabbit. I done laid in some calamus root, en I ain't gwineter take no skuse,' sez Brer Fox, sezee."

Here Uncle Remus paused, and drew a two-pound yam out of the ashes.

"Did the fox eat the rabbit?" asked the little boy to whom the story had been told.

"Dat's all de fur de tale goes," replied the old man. "He mout, an den agin he moutent. Some say Judge B'ar come 'long en loosed 'im - some say he didn't. I hear Miss Sally callin'. You better run 'long."

[Swamp Rat]

22. It'sss j-j-j-jj-just a f-f-ff-figure of s-s-ssspeech if I s-s-ssay it.

[Ian David]

24. Tar Baby

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. That's probably the best argument, thus far.

Just out of curiousity, what was the date of the stories, and the date of the picture?

[Ian David]

28. Google is your friend. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. What webpage did you get the photo?

[Ian David]

37. Right-click the photo... properties...

.... but teach a man to use a computer, and he'll eat for a lifetime.

[hedgehog]

52. So I googled the subject Tar Baby

Clearly the term refers to the the folk tale, and just as clearly it was lifted from the folk tale very early in the 20th century to be used as a derogotory term. Many of us grew up thinking the term only referred to a clever story.

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. Story was printed around 1870s.

I still don't believe it was meant to be derogatory, but I can see how it evolved to become so.

[omega minimo]

36. There is no ARGUMENT. Try google first next time

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. There is an argument.

I'm just accumulating facts, and this is how I see them:

1) The Uncle Remus stories were published around 1879. They probably used pine resin for tar back then. That means that tar was not necessarily black.

2) The photo probably came much later. Probably from Disney's "Songs of the South" It is in color, and I don't know how many books actually had illustrations in color back in 1879.

Why does this matter? Because I believe the story wasn't racial when it was first printed, but that it became so later when people began to assume that the tar should be black. I understand you find it offensive, and I will respect that. However, I don't believe that that someone's objection to the term should stop an attempt to learn the truth of the origins of how it became a slur.

[omega minimo]

60. You knew the answer before starting this and could have done your homework

instead of flinging more poo on DU :evilfrown:

[The Backlash Cometh]

69. Shame on you.

Shame on you for not realizing the power of the internet and how good debate opens doors to understanding. At least twenty people, including myself, are walking away with an understanding of how prickly this issue is for you and we will be sensitive to that. But they also know the truth. PC didn't get in the way of hiding the fact that this story was not originally a racist one.

[omega minimo]

73. Shame on you for not researching it yourself w/o running "tar baby" up GD

Screw "PC." Try Respect.

"PC didn't get in the way of hiding the fact that this story was not originally a racist one."

Was it worth it? Apparently you have learned nothing; maybe you did "know" the answer ahead of time, after all.

[The Backlash Cometh]

90. I'm sorry. But you just don't get it.

People aren't going to allow anything to get in the way of the truth, anymore. You have made some blatantly shameful conclusions about me, that I'm going to let go for now. I understand that this offends you, but I don't believe that you have the right to stop anybody from researching this to get to the truth of how this evolved. I had NO idea that this was considered offensive, and guess what, at least 30 to 40% of black Americans don't either. That's a truth that you would have buried if this discourse would not be allowed to continue. I learned something today and I'm not afraid to admit it. But if you insist on insulting me, then I will be happy to put you on ignore.

[omega minimo]

109. You call this research?

Seems the pictures provided for you and the suggestion that you Google your research could have helped you understand and prevented another "tar baby" being smeared on the title page.

Those pictures tell the whole story. Before Disney. As I posted elsewhere, most of the offensive racist imagery like that has been EXCISED from pop culture.



:hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

115. No offense, but you still don't seem to get it.

Your protests did more to block the truth, than to bring sunshine to the facts. The Tar Baby didn't just pop out of some white racist's head and for all your posturing, that's what your reaction suggested. The tar baby originated from African folklore, thus not meant to be racially offensive, yet, you kept getting stuck on the latter, and, thus, blocking any hope of understanding.

And, yes, I call this research. If I relied just on google searches, I might end up on your webpage and come up with an entirely biased opinion which obscures the gray areas I was looking for. Taking a poll of people's opinions, like I did in this thread, lets me know that your experience isn't a 100% black experience, nor that I have any reason to be ashamed of the origins of the Tar baby and other Briar Rabbit stories. It does, however, tell me that the majority of black Americans now consider it a racial slur, and that if I ever wanted to talk about the stories on an academic level, I'd have to find a black American that doesn't share your views.

[omega minimo]

119. How odd to search from zero point with an attitude of total ignorance

and expect that history-- including history that has been "disappeared" from common knowledge and even common memory-- to prove and justify it's own existence........... or assume that it doesn't exist.

Shudder to think that's what passes for academia (below your "Age 30 " bar?). As Orwell spins. This comment: "The Tar Baby didn't just pop out of some white racist's head and for all your posturing, that's what your reaction suggested" reflects an equally unhinged (from history and culture) reactionary Either/Or kind of reverse logic.

And to somehow attatch "shame" (not only trying to "shame" me) to the experience of the literature? That's bizarre. There's another concept called "context" and the stories reflect the racial and cultural realities of the time they were written in. Your question was whether "tar baby" is offensive now. To go from the zero point of ignorance and settle on a traditional African image as Your Final Answer............. :eyes:

And to top it all off with the claim that you didn't know it was a slur before this PLUS an insult about the unsuitability of black Americans to discuss this on an academic level..... :wow: :wow:

"It does, however, tell me that the majority of black Americans now consider it a racial slur, and that if I ever wanted to talk about the stories on an academic level, I'd have to find a black American that doesn't share your views."

"Posturing"? "protests did more to block the truth"? :rofl:

See, this is why they disappear history and kill context. Even with the compooter, it's like communicating with Dixie Cups and string. (Ooops, is Dixie Cups racist? What are Dixie Cups? Dixie Cups and string-- what the hell is THAT about? Ooops, wrong decade!)

Good luck with your grey areas. Rilly. :thumbsup:


Sorry to have to kick the "tar baby"

[The Backlash Cometh]

122. Man, this subthread has jumped the shark.

I can't even follow what you're saying, anymore. Let's just be content, that our paths will never cross again.

[hiphopnation]

130. sir/ma'mm

part of your whole problem is that you can't (won't?) understand, and you have made it painfully obvious in this thread.

Seriously, you really cannot be that clueless, can you?

Please bookmark this thread and read it many times over (especially omega minimo and bornagainhooligan's posts), and T-H-I-N-K next time you want to start a thread *singing* about your willful ignorance. It is painful and embarrassing.

[omega minimo]

133. Well I read thru and found "Was tar black back then?" and wonder if

we all done been had. :evilfrown:


he Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts)  Mon Jul-31-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Was tar black back then?
I thought they used a sort of pine tar, which meant it would have looked honey colored?


"Seriously, you really cannot be that clueless, can you?"



:hug:

[hiphopnation]

138. another doozy

The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts)
Mon Jul-31-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
58.How plentiful do you think this sort of tar would have been used commercially by 1870? Seems kind of tight.




yeesh...i almost swalloed my drinking straw on that one...

[The Backlash Cometh]

140. Well, I'm sure you have all the answers, so explain this:

Your tales were African folklore. If they started in Africa, they could have preceded the 1800s. I don' think they used road tar back then, the way they do now. They probably used pine resin. Black tar was probably not commercially available in the area until 1820-1850, depending on who you talk to. The point is, that the Tar Baby depicted in a way that is offensive to you, evolved over time as the product became available, IMHO.

In sum, under no circumstance can you claim that these stories were originally racially motivated, and though that may have always been obvious to you, the problem is that many people may have missed that point because they were intimidated by reactions such as yours and never got a chance to get that far.

The promising thing is that this thread suggests that there are people we can reach to discuss the stories in a literary manner because not everyone holds your opinion. So you hold onto that smug attitude. Because that's what you really want, and that's all you're going to get.

[omega minimo]

155. Well, here is where your black n white thinkin clouds your grey areas:

TWICE!

1. "In sum, under no circumstance can you claim that these stories were originally racially motivated"

2. "and though that may have always been obvious to you, the problem is that many people may have missed that point because they were intimidated by reactions such as yours and never got a chance to get that far."


1. That's not the point, that's not the argument, and that's not the question you posed in the OP

2. "Blame the Victim" is never good form

[The Backlash Cometh]

139. Have you ever lived overseas?

I have. You take on a different attitude when you're around people of various cultures. You learn to be tolerant of other people's "ignorance" knowing that they have not experienced what you have experienced. I was very fortunate because my mother's culture was a proud, but humble one, and I got to see them on several occasions take someone who was willing to learn and show them the ways of their culture. They were so helpful, that you learned to respect their perspective, and adopted it as your own for all the right reasons. You and the other fellow, however, have not learned how to be charitable, and because of it, I have learned that this is offensive to you, and certainly you will achieve your desired result because I will avoid, not just using the term, but I will also avoid you. Your response does not inspire me to embrace you or desire to learn more of your culture besides what I need to know in order to navigate through it as an American living in this hostile 21st Century.

You want the upperhand and feel smug about your position? Have at it. You made your point, and you lost a potential friend and ally. No wonder things don't get better for you all.

[hiphopnation]

148. that you continue posting

and *singing* about your ignorance tells me two things:

a. i don't want you as a friend
b. you were not before, and never will by my ally.

thanks for making all this so painfully obvious. good luck :thumbsup:

[The Backlash Cometh]

151. I'm not afraid to admit that there are still things I need to learn.

I hope I never lose the courage to ask a question. You, on the other hand, will someday realize that your reaction closes more doors, than opens them.

However, since you would rather wallow in ignorance, than take the risk to ask a question, I'll give you some unsolicited background. I lived on an overseas military base for the first 18 years of my life. The military, at that time, had no tolerance for racist remarks. For obvious national security reasons, everyone needs to get along when they're overseas. My own father, who experienced racisim when he grew up in the United States, never shared those experiences with us as we grew up. Instead, he pushed the classics on us, hoping that they would define this country for us, instead of his own experiences. Of course, classics are dated material, so racism was never part of our daily existence. We knew there were problems in the US in the 60s, but we were led to believe that the US was united in their effort to stamp out the pockets of racism that existed. Of course, when we came to the U.S. as adults and experienced racism for the first time in our lives, we became confused by it all and it wasn't until much later that my dad admitted that he had experienced the same things.

So, excuse me, but your experiences are not like mine. The words that harmed you and damaged you as a child, were not mine. I learned something in these last two days, and thank goodness, I've met enough black Americans in my lifetime to know that you don't represent all of them.

You want to be an angry, self-righteous, young man, I won't get in your way. Glad to be of some service to you. But I also won't let you define how I feel about your culture. Best of luck, chappie. You're going to need it.

[omega minimo]

156. "No wonder things don't get better for you all."

See, that sort of comment makes this look like a gag.

"No wonder things don't get better for You People, ya'll"

Apparently, "You want the upperhand and feel smug about your position."

[hedgehog]

32. Going by the above dialog, I'd say this was a good story once

but now it's tainted by racism. The notion of a pine-tar baby makes a lot of sense, i never could figure out where all the black tar came from. Clearly it was Walt Disney who distorted the story by making the tar baby out of road tar. I blame him because the images he generated are so ubiquitous. The real problem here is the notion that black is bad. "Tar baby" is an ugly term only if it is used as such. Apparently a lot of people do think of it as an ugly term implying that black is ugly or bad. It's too bad. The moral behind the original story of the tar baby is a good one. So is the follow-up about Brer Rabbit being thrown into the briar patch to punish him.

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. BINGO. I think we have a winner.

[Raine]

120. It's a shame because

the original story has a good lesson in it about doing something stupid and making it worse by getting in deeper kind of like what chimpie is doing in the ME. Since it is considered racist and insulting it can't be used, I know I don't want to use anything that hurts and insults others.

[fishwax]

163. it preceded Disney ... here's a 1904 illustration

Harris wrote his book partly as a defense of slavery in the south. He adapted black folk tales, and put them in the mouths of a lovable black narrator who had "nothing but pleasant memories of the discipline of slavery." And it did not take long before illustrations of the stories adopted the prevalent blackface caricature for the baby in question.

[omega minimo]

29. Can we just fuckin NOT DO THIS?

:puke:

[Touchdown]

30. Ask the people who have been slurred by the term.

If black people believe it's racist, even if other black folks don't think so, then I won't use it. How hard is that? Why would I deliberatley want to make people feel bad? Simple manners really.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. No problem with your reasoning.

I certainly learned something today. It's running about 60% offended to 40% who are not, but I would say that is high enough to justify showing sensitivity to the issue.

[omega minimo]

39. Do you apply that logic to

women? :hi:

[Touchdown]

51. I fall off my bike with that at times.

...but I'm working on it.:dunce: It depends on the company I'm with. If my friend calls me a bitch, then she gets it right back. It's the context of the relationship that matters as well. If I just met a black man, and am talking about a quagmire I'm in, then I have a pretty shallow command of the english language if I can find no other synonim for "tar-baby".

But really, I can't be so married to an expression that I must steadfastly defend it's use just because it has a history to it. Language is supposed to be fluid, and ever evolving. I just don't understand how people can choose to use an outdated term, that has been used to offend a class of people in the past, and defend it's use to those who are offended by it. Not the best way to get people to like you, if you ask me.

I can read Tolkein, and he uses "faggot" often...as a bundle of kindling, and understand it. I can read a Hannity book (which I don't) and if he uses "faggot" it obviously means something else, or Sam Seder for that matter. It's not just a "my team vs. yours" thing with me.

[omega minimo]

59. Like "bitch"?

:evilgrin:
"I just don't understand how people can choose to use an outdated term, that has been used to offend a class of people in the past, and defend it's use to those who are offended by it."

[Touchdown]

65. Eh', you got a point.

...as long as "The male ethos. A culture of intimidation, authority, power and control." can be dismissed as well.;)

[omega minimo]

76. No, please join in there and discuss the overarching "ethos" that rules us

all :toast:

Consider the big picture --and not individuals-- as under discussion.

[Touchdown]

78. No. Ethos sounds too much like "eros" and I'm a virgin.

:rofl:

My little nit to pick is that you chose that phrase as your thread title, even though it's really about a skirt wearing lawyer. Kind of confrontational, IMO.

[omega minimo]

81. It's a quote from the lawyer. Can see how it's startling. " " help titles

like that work.


So, you sidestep the issue, eh? ;) rather pick at nits?

[Touchdown]

83. It's not the quote from the lawyer that I care about.

It's that his quote was used to once again blame penis owners for all the faults in the World. The fact that a woman started the thread doesn't escape me either.

[omega minimo]

85. No no no you miss the point. It's about the Big Picture, not individuals

I already said this. You don't wanna hear it. You wanna hide behind YOUR penis and not look at how the overarching system impacts ALL of us.

The OP was presented as info from two men commenting about this and I thought it might help SOME DU men consider the subject without the usual excuses, avoidance, misunderstanding....................................... instead, it mostly drops cuz men won't touch it anyway-- either attack the ideas when they come from women, or ignore them when they come from men :eyes:

It's important for us to face what we are dealing with, connect the dots and save ourselves. :grouphug:

[Touchdown]

91. No, the overarching system of control and power

is power hungry people, period. It's not about "male ethos". It's about the innate sociopathic tendencies in quite a few of us HUMANS to control others for the betterment of ourselves.

Barbara Bush, Marie Antoinette, Cleopatra, That Scottish Queen who bathed in the blood of beautiful maidens, the list goes on for women too. I reject the lawyer's assessment that it's a characteristic of only one gender. You even attributed it to...and I quote...hormones. Get this. Grover Norquist's hormones are no different than mine. I just don't think stealing from poor people to enrich myself makes me a good person. Same goes for Timothy McVeigh, George *Bush, Peter The Great, or any other male who was a self-absorbed asshole on the planet.

Dots to connect can be found much more coherently in John Dean's new book..."Conservatives Without Conscience". What is detrimental to society is part of human nature, not half of human nature.

[omega minimo]

106. You can't see the forest for the peepees

"It's not about "male ethos". It's about the innate sociopathic tendencies in quite a few of us HUMANS to control others for the betterment of ourselves."


You don't understand what he is talking about. It is the ancient institutional foundation of what you consider "innate sociopathic tendencies."

He (and I) do not claim "that it's a characteristic of only one gender" or that "What is detrimental to society is part of...half of human nature." Because you do not understand the institutional nature of the "male ethos" he refers to, you see it as an indictment of individual males.

"Dots to connect can be found much more coherently in John Dean's new book..."Conservatives Without Conscience". What is detrimental to society is part of human nature, not half of human nature."

"The Dean book addressed "authoritarianism" in a way that was palatable to "MORE" males than the "male ethos" approach. It's the same thing. It's just easier for you to hear when some of the dots are left unconnected.

:hi:

[Touchdown]

157. So you do blame men, maleness, and anything male then?

"...some of the dots left unconnected." Nice unexplained (probably unexplainable) slight there. You seem to believe that attacking an arbitrary institution does not translate to the individual. It is you, my dear, that do not understand men. You also assume that there is some kind of "institutional foundation" exists, because some guy in a skirt is trying to make you nod in agreement. "Oh' so this is why I don't understand men. A man tells me their secrets, and I know I can trust him, since I already agree with his thesis...besides, he's wearing a dress, so he must be smart." Gimme a break. You are not discovering a new approach to the gender misunderstandings, you are having your worldview about men being violent control freaks validated by this guy, and you are running with it.

Is there an institution that teaches boys how to be agressive? Yes, but that is not the case the world over. Most countries are a lot less violent than we are, yet they all have just as many men in them. Maybe they control their religious and political bullies better than we do. His argument is nothing new.

[Recursion]

53. I live in DC

Plenty of people got riled up over the word "niggardly" a few years ago. The fact that people got offended never made me want to stop using the word, though.

http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=584

[Touchdown]

70. I bet you got a lot of friends using it, didn't you?

If it offends people, whether or not they know what it means, why use it? Shouldn't we all try to be friendly to one another?

Stingy, selfish, miserly, penny pinching, etc...no, there is no other alternative to niggardly, so we must offend people in order to communicate. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I could call someone Papschmere as a joke, because he's a character in the Naked Gun movies. I'm sure no women would be offended by it, even if they were offering me a job.:eyes:

[Recursion]

79. I could care less about making friends...

...with people who won't open a damn dictionary.

[Touchdown]

84. I guess that's not me.

I didn't appoint myself teacher to strangers. I would rather have someone smile and engage me in conversation than to walk off in disgust, even if they didn't "get" what I was saying.

[kiahzero]

128. That's absolutely absurd

"Don't say that word, it sounds like it might be racist!"

Niggardly is a word with absolutely no racial connotations, except for the fact that it sounds somewhat like a common racial slur. Saying that the word shouldn't be used just because some people refuse to educate themselves is a sad example of reducing civil discourse to the lowest common demoninator.

[Morning Dew]

137. Exactly !

Don't use the word Country - may offend uneducated women

Don't use the word query - may offend uneducated gay people

Don't use the word jeweler - may offend uneducated Jewish folks

Don't use the word . . . well there could be tons of examples.


When people took offense at the word niggardly, I about blew a gasket.

[Touchdown]

159. Thanks for the slippery slope non-sequitur

..and for proving my point. "It's everybody else's fault that I think I'm being told I can't use the words I want." All about you, isn't it?

[Touchdown]

158. Are you quoting me?

...because I never said that, or even implied that. I don't tell people what to do. I have a vocabulary large enough that I don't need to use a word that's been outdated for at least 30 years.

You say what you want...just don't stand there in shock that someone not as learned as you gets offended and walks off. For me, there's much more to talk about than remedial explainations of terms, and those who refuse to educate themselves to accept your pet words do sometimes have stories to tell.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. Great point

If it is offensive, don't say it. How ignorant to argue your intent, when it was not to be offensive. If someone is offended by something you say, it's offensive. It doesn't matter what your intent was.

[Recursion]

165. Or, do what I do, and accept the fact...

...that people will be offended by what you say sometimes. I don't owe anyone an offense-free life. I have examined the social and political consequences of saying what I want, and I'm willing to accept them.

What a lot of the "anti-PC" crowd want is to be able to say whatever they want without any social consequences. This is moronic in my view since there will always be social consequences, and anyways social consequences are a much better way of regulating speech than political consequences. If someone is willing to pay the price for saying offensive things, good for them.

[hedgehog]

35. Oddly enough, my own name is a slur.

Check out 19th century Amrican literature and the name "Brigid" is a code reference to ignorant if well-meaning Irish immigrant girls, especially servants. It even turns up in Lousia May Alcott's "Little Women". I've also seen it in sociology texts of the time. It's still a common name in Ireland, but few American Irish still use the name, preferring more "Celtic" names.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. I dropped my mom's name in my teens because I thought it was too ethnic.

And adopted a name which I later learned meant, "bitter." I tell you, you can run, but you can't hide from fate. LOL!

By the way, since my mom died, I've had two dreams where her name was a prominent part of the dream. I wonder if I should not pay more attention?

[omega minimo]

40. Brigid is a Celtic goddess name

[hedgehog]

42. Of course, and also the name of a fantastic woman who founded

one of the great monasteries of Ireland. St. Brigid kept the best of the old pagan rites (the watch fire) and exemplified the virtue of Christian charity. Her father had to free her because she was to expensive to keep - she kept giving away all his belongings to the poor! I guess I was trying to point out how we let other people steal parts of our culture from us. Irish-Americans dropped the name "Brigid" and now it sounds as if African Americans are dropping the wisdom of the old folk tales.

[omega minimo]

55. "African Americans are dropping the wisdom of the of the old folk tales"

If you and others are unaware of offensive, racist black "memorabilia" it may be because it was mostly removed from pop culture in the not too distant past. It's now found in collections and art pieces, mainly.

[hedgehog]

62. I've seen some of that stuff, it can get pretty bad.

Before Disney put his fingerprints all over them, these stories belonged to African-Americans. The only code in the original stories is a set of instructions on surviving among white racists. It's too bad that a wonderful part of black culture has been sullied like this. I can relate when I see old movies and have to cringe at the "stage-Irish". St. Patrick's Day was once a real celebration of national pride akin to the modern assertion that black is beautiful. Now it's been turned it into a booze fest. We were allowed to assimilate, so our problems are over, but it's a shame to see how so much that is Irish is still lampooned today.

[LostinVA]

88. Whoopi Goldberg oddly enough collects it n/t

[omega minimo]

132. Yes, many prominent AA celebrities do-- and artists

like Raymond Saunders who incorporates the imagery into his work.

[Breeze54]

167. Irish name Brighid which means "exalted one" ...

My confirmation name is Bridget.

BRIDGET
Gender: Feminine
Usage: Irish, Scottish, English, Irish Mythology
Pronounced: BRIJ-it

Irish name Brighid which means "exalted one"
In Irish mythology she was the goddess of fire, poetry and wisdom, the daughter of the god Dagda.
This name was also borne by two important saints:
a patron saint of Ireland (also known as Brigid) who established a convent at Kildare in the 5th century,
and Saint Bridget of Sweden (also known as Birgitta) who founded an order of nuns in the 14th century.

I chose the name because of the reference to goddess of fire, poetry and wisdom!
I thought, at the age of 12, that she was a fighter!
A woman of substance, a woman to admire and a woman to try to model my life after.
I got the fire part down! ;)
I've dabbled in poetry and I'm working on wisdom....

[Doctor_J]

48. Hmm...Let me ask question about this

What if Mitt didn't mean anything racial by this? Can someone from MA verify that he is a racist?

The reason I ask, on Law & Order (I know, I know) Briscoe referred to a perp as a "Jamoke". I wasn't familiar with the term, but it sounded racist - referring to "chocolate" things, if you will. But it runs out that's what they call low-lifes or skels or whatever.

Sorry if this is naive. Is there a possibility that Romney is not a racist, and didn't know this term was offensive?

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. I think the conclusion here is that at least 40% of black Americans

don't think its racist, so I think it's fair to assume that there will be non-blacks who won't know it offends, either. What they do after they figure it out, is what's important.

[Recursion]

49. It's a slur if you call someone a tar baby

OTOH, if you use it to describe a situation that gets worse the more you stubbornly try to fix it, it's not. Just like saying "a chink in your armor" or "spic and span" are not slurs.

[hiphopnation]

80. you'd think a politician

would be a little more careful in choosing his words
i just don't see how one could not have some idea that it might be at least a little bit offensive or might potentially be harming in some way to some people

a joker like that don't deserve to hold public office, imho

[Raine]

123. If a politician doesn't

know than he isn't fit to even hold office cause he is too ignorant. x(

[LostinVA]

89. I think that's a decent analogy -- good work!

[McCamy Taylor]

68. Is there a regional difference? Do the poll by regions, too. Language

usage varies a lot depending upon what part of the country you are from.

Massechuesettes is like a whole other country. John Kerry couldn't even recognize the election fraud techniques Blackwell used in Ohio 2004, which shows that he did not grow up in the same United States that John Edwards and I did.

[hedgehog]

71. Absolutely

The funny thing is that a lot of whites still retain traces of the immigrant experience. When I grew up,my family taught me that blacks were to be treated with respect just as anyone else. People here won't credit it, I'm sure, but I grew up in a place that was just as anti-Catholic as it was anti-black. I was shown the place where the Klan came out after Catholics in the 20's because there weren't enough blacks around to terrorize!

[Breeze54]

166. "Mitt theTotal Shit" is from Utah!! Not MA!!! n/t

:grr:

[hiphopnation]

74. I didn't grow up hearing the stories

for a reason which i have no tangible explanation for, i find it to be at least cruel and demeaning and at most an epithet. (maybe some explanation: "tar" just isn't a nice thing, now is it?)

times change. some stories that were relative a hundred years ago (regardless of the timeless wisdom they may have to impart) may not be relevant today for a whole slew of reasons, outmoded language being one of them.

[Recursion]

77. Call it the "glue baby", then...

...if it really bothers you.

I personally think a politician's racism should be determined by what policies he advocates, not what children's books he references.

[Lilith Velkor]

82. Or "The Blob"

...if you want a more modern reference point.

[hiphopnation]

86. ??

it has nothing to do with how it makes ME feel, silly.

it's no wonder that you miss this point entirely :eyes:

[LostinVA]

92. It is called a "gum baby" in some versions of the African tale

not taken from Chandler's narratives.

I had a Folklore Lit class in college, taught by a professor who brought in different local people to talk about certain tales, cultures, etc. Including an African American professor who was head of a local black university's Black Studies department. She discussed the Uncle Remus stories, including "Tarbaby." She never mentioned it as being racist, nor did I ever hear it used as such, until the Tony Snow dustup.

[guardian]

135. Looking to be offended?

I think this is another case of some people going out of their way to be offended. Not everything is about race. I suspect the author of the Brer Rabbit tales used "tar" because it was familar to them as something maliable and easy to construct in a desired shape. They didn't exactly know about Polymers back then.

Just because someone makes reference to something in a story doesn't mean they are racist. Whether they refer to tar baby, phoenix rises again, scorpion and the frog, or calling someone the "under dog." All cultures have aphorisms and proverbs. As a white person, I don't feel offended that Frosty the Snowman was white (or fat).

[hiphopnation]

136. who asked you?

and since when has this country or white society at large been interested in anyone's feelings EXCEPT those of white people? here's a clue: they haven't.

The minute I see any sentence preceded by the four words "As a white person..." all reason, compassion, logic, AND CONTROL are out the window for me. How dare you!?! Have you no shame?!? Have you no humility?!?! Have you no decency nor common sense?!?! No, quite obviously, you do not.

I frankly do not care what you as "a white person", do or do not find offensive. That's unsolicited information.

I DO care what black and brown people find offensive and it doesn't take an overly sensitive Pollyanna, nor a bleeding-heart liberal to have a few ounces of compassion and COMMON SENSE to try and imagine what a term like "tar baby" might sound like to a black person. You obviously do not possess these qualities and therefore i don't give *a two-month-old horse shit*, what you think.

Just because someone makes reference to something in a story doesn't mean they are racist. Sure.

Go peddle this right-wing, racist, ignorant, backward, good-old-boy floating llama turd to some poor unsuspecting sap who can't tell the difference, okay?

[Breeze54]

168. Well said!!

Thank You!!!! :hug:
I'm just freaking out by the inane fucked up, blatant disregard evident here!!!
I'm totally appalled at the fucking, absolutely, daft and racist responses on this thread!
I can't believe that all this time, I thought, intelligence was a resident member here!!!
:nuke: :grr:
Un-fucking-believable!!!
:grr:

[guardian]

170. Racists come in all colors.

So let me get this straight, you only care about "black and brown people." Verrrry egalitarian of you. Not a shred of racism or bigotry in that response. You'd blow a gasket if I turned your own words back on you

'I frankly do not care what you as "a black person", do or do not find offensive.'


Leave the invective and ad hominem attacks on the other side of the keyboard. It just weakens your argument.

[MrScorpio]

99. Knowing the Romney's as I do, I have to say yes

It Slipped!

OOPS!

[-..__...]

100. AGNTSA...

[nickgutierrez]

116. I've never heard it *not* used as a racial slur (under 30)

Jeez, even their "moderates" are racist...

[hiphopnation]

118. take a look at this thread!

appearently many here at DU don't find much wrong with the term!

[KyuzoGator]

117. When I see saltine crackers at the supermarket, I get so offended.

"Cracker" is a derogatory slur against white people.

[ls317]

124. It was code

But here is something that is really rich

``Tar baby is a totally inappropriate phrase in the 21st century,'' said Larry Jones, a black Republican and civil rights activist. (Damn talk about an oxymoron if I ever heard one)Black Republican and Civil Rights activist in the same sentence. wow

[jaysunb]

125. I never realized there were that many of us

around here.....

[AspenRose]

126. You could have gone here for your answer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x3339

[hiphopnation]

129. the first post says it all

by DUer Connie_Corleone

It depends on the context. At the same time...

I'm offended by some of the white members on DU who feel it's their duty to give black people a history lesson on where the term came from because we're too "ignorant" to understand it's historical context and we're just being irrational for thinking it's racist.

I don't know how many times I have to write that white racists changed the meaning of the term into something derogatory to black people before they get it through their thick skulls.

As far as Tony Snow is concerned, I don't think the term was used in a racist way. That doesn't mean I think Tony Snow isn't racist.

[The Backlash Cometh]

131. Thanks.

I have a few ideas on why the polls are showing different results, but I can hardly muster the interest in this topic, anymore. Guess I'll have to do my lear'n in the closet.

[ComerPerro]

127. Larry Jones, black Republican. LMAO

he deserves what he gets.

Slandered by white Republicans. What a shocker.

[Catherine Vincent]

134. I don't view it as a racial slur.

I just don't like it.

[Breeze54]

141. He's sorry? That's a laugh!

"He was unaware that some people find the term objectionable
and he's sorry if anyone's offended," Fehrnstrom said."

Yeah and I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn!! :sarcasm:

Why am I not convinced that "Mitt the Total Shit" knew exactly what he was saying?
Because he's been painted as this very intelligent person. Now that's a joke!
He's just your standard issue bigot, right wing, religious nutjob!!
:evilfrown:
I'll be very happy the day he leaves office and never returns to MA again!!


And that's probably one of the reasons he CHOSE that terminology!
He's been making disparaging remarks about MA since he entered the Gov.'s office here.
Fucker! :grr:

[hedgehog]

142. If anyone can stand one more comment

I asked my dad what he thought the phrase meant. He referred to the Uncle Remus story then went on to explain that when used today, the phrase described the difficulties of confronting racism. "No matter how you approach the subject, you get stuck and are apt to get dirty." I learned a lot from all thwe threads here and will not be using the phrase again.

[The Backlash Cometh]

152. Your father is very astute.

[noonwitch]

143. It all depends on the context

I don't think Romney meant it as a slur, he meant it as a metaphor for a sticky problem. He probably could have found a better one, but people these days are getting all worked up over silly words. It's not like he said the N word, which should never be uttered by a white person.

A lot of people are not familiar with the original story-I know it from a movie you can't buy in the US, "Song of the South". Not many people buy the books with those stories in it for their kids.

[Breeze54]

149. I think you're naive'!

"Mitt the Shit" knows exactly what he's doing and saying at all times.
Don't be fooled!!

PS. Thanks for "Gramma's Cheesecake Recipe"! :)
We'll have to try it! Looks easy too!

[semillama]

144. Seems to me that threads about the meaning of the term

are a good example of the analogy of the original folk tale.


"No, it's ok! I'm taking it back."

[The Backlash Cometh]

154. Ain't that something?

Funny how literature can spring to life and pass the test of time.

[underpants]

153. Sambo, Tobie, Tarbaby...

and so on are all racist from how I heard them used growing up.

I'm white but I always heard Tarbaby used as a racial slur. They may claim otherwise when it gets blurted out but amongst white people ( when they think it is safe) it is a slur.

[aikoaiko]

162. Not this again. Context is everything.

Tar baby can be used as a slur. It can also be used as nonracist rhetotical literary reference as well as the original nonracist usage.

Its just like one of the suits in a deck of cards.