Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents

[mom cat]

Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."


All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said. (Efrat Weiss)


(07.30.06, 17:37)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3283720,00.html

[villager]

1. really? David wasn't allowed to build a Temple because the Rabbis

teach he had too much blood on his hands.

Are these Rabbis picking and choosing their "interpretations?"

[mom cat]

5. Sure looks like it. It seems a lot like the legalism of Alberto Gonzales.

[EFerrari]

31. Is it just me, or does that legalism of Torquemada Gonzales

and the rest of his team seem to be floating all over this debacle?

:(

[mom cat]

45. No. It is not just you. I love your nickname for Gonsales for he has

torqued the law and morality on its head.

[dogday]

78. I could of not said it any better myself..............nt

[Name removed]

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[mom cat]

10. This position is frightening in the world in which we live. If every

subgroup in every nation we would have endless bloodletting.

[treestar]

3. Sounds like extremists

Who make an exception for Israeli civilians. If they really believe this, it would hardly be fair if it didn't go both ways.

A moran is a moran no matter what his religion or country.

[mom cat]

13. This stance is extreemist, no matter which religious group holds

the opinion.

[treestar]

22. True. I'm assuming it is not the normal stance of regular

Jewish or Israeli people.

This is the other side of the coin that judges that because there are some extremists among the Arab, some who think "Israel has no right to exist," and as long as some Arabs say that, then any Arab deserves to be killed for "supporting terrorists." Anyone who wants to judge the Arabs by their extremists shouldn't have a problem with Israel being judged by its extremists.

[mom cat]

44. God help us if any of us are judged by the extremists in our

groups. All this extremism must be challenged or it grows like Tribbles.

[atreides1]

35. Not the first time they've made this decision

Settler Rabbi: Killing innocent people in war is allowed if saves lives
Uri Glickman - May 20, 2004

Rabbi Dov Lior, chairman of the settler’s rabbinical council ruled that killing civilians during warfare is permitted if it will save lives.

The IDF are allowed to hurt so called innocent civilians during warfare, Chairman of the Yesha rabbinical council (Judea, Samaria and Gaza Strip), Rabbi Dov Lior, said in a Halachic (Jewish law) ruling made public Wednesday.

"The law of our Torah is to have mercy on our soldiers and to save them. This is the real moral behind Israel's Torah and we must not feel guilty due to foreign morals," Lior said.

Sources close to the Rabbi explained that Lior made the remarks Tuesday night and they had nothing to do with Wednesday’s events in Gaza. The IDF is allowed to use all means at its disposal to defeat terrorism “even if it means ‘innocent’ people are killed”, the sources said.

The religious community did not publicly condemn Rabbi Lior’s ruling but warned against its implications. “It is a dangerous step that could test all religious IDF commanders taking part in the current fighting”, sources in the Yesha community told Maariv.


It's funny how the American media never reports racism when it's done by the Israelis, or rarely reports it.

[leveymg]

47. Hezbollah made an exception for Israeli civilians.

The fact remains, after all the back and forth on this subject: during the five years preceding this war, Hezballah did not target and kill Israeli civilians. That group did not engage in a fatal terrorist attack or launch rockets that killed civilians in Israel. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/28/14728/0979 Furthermore, Hezballah inflicted fewer than 25 Israeli military deaths during that period. http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/exeres/9EE216D7-82EF-4274-B80D-6BBD1803E8A7,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/28/14728/0979

The only civilian death, Haviv Dadon, was killed on August 10, 2003 near the Lebanese border by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell. It's not clear whether this was an intentional targeting or whether Hezballah was shooting at Israeli aircraft overflying their positions. The Anti-Defamation League didn't list that death and doesn't include military fatalities in its accounting of "major terrorist attacks in Israel". http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

[Lurking Dem]

50. So just sit back and enjoy it?

In the last 15 years, over 2,200 Katyushas have rained onto the town of Kiryat Shmona alone.

[leveymg]

55. Take it up with Syria. That's right below the Golan Heights across from

Syria.

I see reports that Kiryat Shimona has been hit by Katyusha's from Lebanon since 07/12/06. It may have happened before 05/00, as well. 15 years covers two occupations.

Please link a source for that.

[treestar]

61. Straw man, once again. False either-or choice.

No, don't sit back and enjoy it. Do something constructive about it that doesn't involved just indiscriminate killing. What? I don't know, exactly. I don't have to know the solution in order to condemn the killing.

But if I had any power as regards the subject, I'd at least try something else. And the odds are, just plain old killing is not necessary to solve the problem.

[leveymg]

63. The point I'm making is that there wasn't really any killing of

civilians, on either side that I am aware of, from the time the Israelis left Lebanon until they went back in three weeks ago.

[Marie26]

79. Seems like it

This Council also tried to forbid Israel from dismantling the settlements (they were dismantled anyway). They've called for the "extermination of the enemy" in Lebanon, & the creation of an "emergency government" during the war to re-establish the settlements. :crazy: Fundies.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885980653&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Name removed]

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[mom cat]

20. This is a lot like calling the Geneva Conventions passe.

This is why we have International law and why we must enforce it, so twisted morality does not get away with justifying the indefensible.
This is the same morality as the suicide bomber who says that the deaths are OK for one's own cause. It is as perverted as the statement of Madelyn Albright that the deaths of half a million Iraqi children's' deaths was an OK price to pay.
This twisting of morality to fit the circumstances is inherently wrong.

[sabra]

6. you see we have fundies too !

these same rabbis gave permission to attack IDF soldiers during the evacuation of Gaza.

[mom cat]

25. What lovely chaps! .... NOT! This is the equvalent of Pat Robertson

calling for the asscination of Hugo Chaves. Yep. We have all got our dangerous religious fundies.
Just how much weight do the pronouncements of this Rabbinical group have in Israel? Just curious.

[leveymg]

59. Attack with guns, or physically resist the forced evacuation of

settlements? Or, they didn't make a distinction?

[sabra]

105. remember Rabin was killed by an Israeli right winger

I guess that's all I can say :-(

[Meshuga]

60. Sadly

We do have fundamentalism.

[HereSince1628]

7. But do they recognize innocents within the Israeli pop.?

[mom cat]

39. Very good question. It needs to be asked of Bosh and Osama as

well. When we demonize the "other" we set up a mentality that can lead to Holocausts, Viet Nams, Darfurs, slavery, colonialinm and genocide. It happens in all "religious" groups and is a perversion of their core teachings. If nothing else comes of this tragedy, I hope it willmake us all look at how religions have been corrupted.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. They apparently hold the same position as Osama bin Laden

...:eyes:

[mom cat]

40. Good point. What a parallel!

[acmavm]

9. So the Lebanese people are the enemy?

What bullshit.

[Mandate My Ass]

11. Incredible. He even warns about "weakening the resolve"

of the soldiers killing more kids by useless moralizing about dead babies. Geez, now I've heard everything.

[treestar]

16. Just like the one the freepers used on any opposition to the Iraq

debacle - they'd claim it weakened the troop morale. And of course was therefore not "supporting the troops."

[Mandate My Ass]

26. RWers of any nation seem to have that in common

Don't question anything, just snap a salute and fall in line with your superiors. This is a dangerous world and we're in charge so don't challenge either our tactics or motivations. Religious blowhards are particularly dangerous people because they try to anesthetize the consciences of believers.

[mom cat]

43. Those two babies that died in their first day of life, even they are

not innocents. They were the enemy. Donals Rumsfeld is not much better when he dismisses all civilian casualities as "collateral damage".

:shrug: Oh well
War is hell! :nuke:

Certainly we can all do getter than this.

[mom cat]

67. Sorry about my spelling. My dyslexia has a spree.

[Mir]

12. I'm sure that the good people

at the Yesha Council are strict believers in the golden rule - you know because they're religious men - and would never do unto anyone else what they would not have done unto themselves; so, Israeli civilians must therefore be seen as legitimate targets on the other end. The council has just made it unfeasible to label Hizbollah a terrorist group. It's a militia that engages Israeli forces and which sometimes causes "collateral damage." Thanks for clearing things up there Rabbis.

[villager]

15. right -- they also negate all the teachings of Hillel

(who I assume they still refer to at their Pesach tables) who said all of Torah could be summed up while standing on one foot:

Do not do to others what is hateful to yourself.

[mom cat]

48. I think that these particular Rabbis must be wrong footed.

[ThomCat]

17. They've just approved the idea that all of Israel is a target.

Because, of course what's good on one side is good on the other. So by their logic there are no innocent people in Israel either.

They just provided the theological approval for the extremist view that Israel either succeed 100% or be 100% destroyed.
x(

[mom cat]

49. Since total victory is not possible, that leaves endless slaughter.

[mom cat]

46. Very good point. It undercuts their ability to talk about their own

innoscent victims.
:shrug: Its just war. :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[mom cat]

52. Its the old victim, rescuer, persecutor triangle. Once you have played one

role, it is easy to slip into any of the other roles. Not all victims of abuse become abusers, but most abusers have been victims in the past. We have to find a way to break the cycle, but Bush's endless war is certainly not the answer.

[Divernan]

18. Yesha Rabbinical Council calls for genocide/extermination of Palestinians

www.saudiembassy.net/2006News/News/NewsDetail.asp?cIndex=6373

2006 News Story

07/18/2006
MWL condemns Yesha Rabbinical Council remarks


The Makkah-based Muslim World League today condemned calls by the Yesha Rabbinical Council to “exterminate the enemy in the north and the south,” as reported in the Jerusalem Post on July 12.


In a statement, Secretary-General Abdullah Al-Turki said that the MWL condemns killing civilians and carrying out terror acts against innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza. The Council’s call serves to encourage acts of terror against unarmed civilians, he said.

Al-Turki called on human rights organizations and the United Nations to protect civilians in Lebanon and Gaza.
*********************************************
And from the July 12, 2006 Jerusalem Post call to "ignore Christian morals" and "exterminate the enemy in the north and in the south"
www.jpost.com
TV News | RSS | Blogs | ePaper 6 Av 5766, Monday, July 31, 2006 22:50 IST |




Web JPost.com



Jul. 12, 2006 17:40
Yesha rabbis call for 'extermination of the enemy'
By JPOST.COM STAFF


The Yesha Rabbinical Council blamed the attack on the north on Wednesday morning on a "weakening of our grip on the land of Israel."

The rabbis saw the attack as a "direct continuation of relinquishing and weakness."

The Council called on the IDF to ignore Christian morals and "exterminate the enemy in the north and the south." They advised that an emergency government be established to "fight the true enemy as is appropriate, and to rescind orders to destroy and evict Jews."

[mom cat]

65. This kind of talk by any of the groups involved just inflames the

situation. Unfortunately, those rabid voices in the US, in Arab countries and/or in Isreal get far more of a following than any of them deserve. We must tale religion back from the fundies and international law back from the Bushies

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. Yesha Rabbinical Council == al-Qaida?

Serious question: How well does YRC's position represent mainstream Jewish thought and religious opinion? Is this a situation of an extremist religious group twisting centuries of theology to provide convenient excuses for atrocities in a way that the mainstream of that religious group find patently offensive and heretical?

[Misskittycat]

38. This is fundie extremism. We have fundie nutjobs just like

all other religions. Most of you should know better than to pretend this is mainstream, and to use it to further inflame the ugly mood on DU lately.

[theHandpuppet]

64. Agreed!

Heaven forbid we should all be judged by the likes of a Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Every religion has its extremist nutjobs.

[TechBear_Seattle]

102. Rebbe, the congregation is *that* way

:hi:

My step-father is Jewish, as was my best friend in high school and several boyfriends. I would like to think that I am fairly conversant in Jewish views, at least with regards to the Conservative, Reform and Progressive schools of thought. From what I know of Judaism, the doctrine that "during time of war, enemy has no innocents" runs counter to just about every concept of warfare found in the Torah and Talmud. For crying out loud, Judaism has held for millennia that it is a nearly unforgiveable sin to cut down fruit trees in warfare; non-combattants are to be held to a lesser standard than an olive or apple tree?

My choice of comparison was deliberate and aimed at the "al-Qaida is violent; therefore Islam is a violent religion" crowd. My pardon if I pushed a few of your buttons.

[mom cat]

68. It is like the vociferous Xtian zealots who advocate assassination of

anyone who they perceive as a threat. All of there fundies pervert the core of their religions, but their volume is so loud that it drowns out the voices of reason.

[leftofthedial]

21. Kill kill kill!

The vermin on both sides are incompetent buffoons, incapable of killing anywhere near fast enough.

Get with the program, you slacker Israelis and you lazy Muslims. Kill kill kill!

KILL, dammit!

[mom cat]

58. And don't forget the Xtians eho have killed far more than the others

combined!

[leftofthedial]

71. Kill everyone!

Everyone on earth might someday become a terrorist or might have a terrorist hiding somewhere near them. Kill! Kill! KILL!

Gawd sez, "KILL, you sinful bastards! Don't make me come down there!"

[mom cat]

90. By Jove, I think he's got it!

[htuttle]

23. So, is Israel a theocracy or not?

Are they going to listen to the Yesha Rabbinical Council, or international law, because international law definitely does NOT agree with that.

[Ian David]

29. Yesha is just a band of crazies that advocated killing their own citizens

[malaise]

34. If you heard the Israeli Foreign Minister

you already know the answer

[acmejack]

24. Zealotry does truly ugly things to people

They lose perspective and acquire moral vertigo...

[Beelzebud]

27. Israel is never wrong!!!!!

Or so we've been told.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[Misskittycat]

69. I think there are a lot of anti-Israeli partisans suddenly showing up.

So maybe we both have something to complain about.

[Moochy]

98. the reservists of the 101st fighting keyboard brigades to the rescue! n/t

[atreides1]

28. Is this

That morality that the Israeli Prime Minister was talking about???? Well, I guess it's semi-official,
Lebanese women and children are now legal targets under the Rabbinical Council ruling.

[mom cat]

70. Morality gets defined in bizarre ways. Consider the burning of

people the church labled as witches, or thekilling of most of the native population of the US.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. All these folks, on both sides, need to get a new God.

The one(s) they have are trying to kill them.

[katty]

57. AMEN! they sure do! they are killing their own people

[mom cat]

72. The Germans had "God with us" on their belt buckles.The "Christian"

nations led the colonization of the world and its attendant genocides and destruction with a cross. By far, the Christians have done the lion's share of the killing.I somehow do not think that this is what Jesus had in mind.

[katty]

74. When engaging in 'deliberate crimes' invoke the 'God' word

most stupid people will buy your excuse for deliberate murder.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. I never could understand why any "God" needed protection.

Here's a divinity supposedly capable of moving galaxies around, "marking the sparrow's fall", unleashing floods, wiping out whole populations, etc. Sounds like the kind of fella' who can take care of himself to me.

Except in money matters, the poor boob always seems to be broke according to the priests, preachers, imams, and assorted other advocates who always have their hands out. Sounds like God could use a good accountant to help him cut down on expenses.

[mom cat]

88. Why argue with success?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. "Blessed are the peacemakers", is not popular among the true believers.

The seem to dote on the "smiting your enemies" verses.

[mom cat]

89. They do tend to get off on those, don't they.

:grr: :nuke::grr:

[mmonk]

32. Religious zealotry erases the conscience

instead of producing one.

[bullimiami]

33. i hope they remember that next time an israeli night club or

market is bombed.

[Solly Mack]

36. Damn. I know I shouldn't be laughing but I am

Ah, religion.....lolololol

[YOY]

37. It's so to hear nice after so much hatred from so called

'Christians' and 'Muslims' that so called 'Jews' can be just as big assholes.

[mom cat]

75. Oy vey! Welcome to the cesspool of humanity. We all have to do

better than this.

[YOY]

91. Spot on!

Fanaticism knows no religion (nor a lack of one...) It is the real enemy and the change comes from within us first!

[mom cat]

92. These are the times that try people's souls

and more than a few will be found guilty.

[Palladin]

41. "All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of

the army and the nation" Wonder what fundie Pastor Hagee has to say about that. Or so-called Christians George Bush and Condoleeza Rice.
It is a mistake to assume that ordinary Israelis don't agree with this. Any less than ordinary Muslims really disagree with Osama bin Laden and Ayatollah Khomeini. Or ordinary fundie heretics in the former US with "Rev." Pat Robertson and John Hagee. All of them steeped in OT gore and sin, and ignoring and spurning the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

[mom cat]

54. And the core of Judiasm Love of God and love of neighbor.

Christians tend to take credit for this idea, but when Jesus said it he was just quoting the Torah.

[Palladin]

95. We just gave $300 bucks to Rabbi Lerner

and his Tikkun organization towards ads they want to place in the NYTimes and Wash Post. There are some very courageous and principled people in the Israeli and American Peace Now movement. As Catholics, we highly respect and value such righteous folks. They're on the side of the angels. The way the neocon American media play it, we never hear anything about them. For the sake of just 10 righteous men, God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah. Let's pray that there are a sufficient number of righteous Jews and christian Christians to spare our present nation-states from the well-deserved Wrath of God.

[mom cat]

96. I think we got ten to keep God from destroying us. I just worry that

we don't have enough to keep us from destroying us. People like Rabbi Lerner give me a glimmer of hope.

[Palladin]

97. Right on Mom Cat.

The Arabs have an apropos phrase here - "Insh'Allah" - As God Wills.....

[Swamp Rat]

53. Sounds like Jerry Falwell

:eyes:

[mom cat]

76. Love it Swamp Rat. You nailed it.

[Crunchy Frog]

56. Jewish law is not applicable in this case.

Only international law and the Geneva conventions. If Israel allows the rulings of a Rabbinical council to supercede those, than it is no better than any other theocracy and must really be considered as much of a rogue state as Iran.

Delete the rest of what I was going to say.

[mom cat]

77. I would only add the US to that list of rogue states with fundi

leaders.

[Crunchy Frog]

82. Agreed. n/t

[jayfish]

62. Does That Only Count Against The Lebanese? Cause According...

to that, insane, logic there are no innocent Israelis either. So what's the fight about again? ...Dumb-asses.

Jay

[mom cat]

81. Bingo!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

66. Where's that flying saucer to get me off this planet?

I don't like the way things are heading, with all of the hateful talk and disregard for human life I hear coming seemingly from every quarter.

[mom cat]

85. I can't help you out there. My spaceship crashed here and I am stuck.

We were returning to the planet of the Lambypie People and boom, here we are. Guess we have to figure out how to make this planet work!

[Marie26]

73. Well, that's convenient. nt

[mom cat]

86. insert superiority dance.

[Rex]

83. Well then what is good for the goose...

be careful what you say, fool. Dam that pisses me off.

[ComerPerro]

87. Hezbollah are not terrorists, then, according to this guy

[LostinVA]

93. Do they truly not see the irony in condemning the "enemy" as an entity

Shades of 1930's Germany. OMG... it totally and completely astounds me that they don't see this!

[leesa]

94. Bunch of sick bastards.

[GAPeace]

99. Jewish extremists!!

I know its taboo to say that (because of course Islam is the only one that has those) but it's the truth.

[unkachuck]

100. "enemy has no innocents"....

....in the upcoming days I'm going to especially remember your words, should I see a picture of a sweet, young, innocent, Israel child, blown to pieces....

[mom cat]

101. Just because some of them are so cruel as to not care if children die,

don't stoop to their level. The thing that separates us from them is our humanity. Never give that up. Its all we got.

[Minstrel Boy]

103. I so hate to see this

[mom cat]

104. That is heartbreaking.

[rockymountaindem]

106. Why?

Soldiers can't pray in battle?

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

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[Lurking Dem]

108. Aren't you just precious.

[jonnyblitz]

109. didn't you read the OP?

pretty sick, so one can only conclude...oh nevermind. but thanks for the compliment anyway!!

WAR IS PEACE!! :patriot:

[rockymountaindem]

110. Protection? Comfort for his family?

I don't know, maybe he's even just saying some regular Jewish prayers, like these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_liturgy#Weekday_prayer_services

That guy looks pretty religious. He's got the whole thing going: talit, teffilin on his head and arm, and a prayerbook even though he's probably got the whole thing memorized (because really observant Jews think it's a serious error to get even one word wrong).

What's wrong with that?

[The Magistrate]

111. This Group, Ma'am, Is An Extremist Body

That does not reflect the mainstream either of Judaism or of Israeli society, or the policies of the Israeli state.

[Broken_Hero]

112. Locking

flamebait, and debate has run its course