Qana Was No Fucking "Mistake" It Is Israeli State Terror And Nothing Else

[leftchick]

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74379

<snip>

"We couldn't get out of our neighborhood because there are only two roads leading out and the Israelis bombed them both several days ago," said Mohammad Shalhoub, a disabled 41-year-old who was recovering in Tyre's government hospital.

Both families were asleep when the two bombs dropped hit the building in rapid succession at 1 a.m.

"I felt the blast throw me across the room. I was buried under the rubble along with the martyrs," Mohammad said.

Mohammad's wife, Rabab, hauled him clear of the debris and rescued their son, Hassan, 4, but his daughter Zeinab, 6, was left dead under the rubble. He also lost his sister, Fatmeh, and brother, Tayseer.

Further air strikes and heavy artillery bombardments during the night - which destroyed at least four other houses in the neighborhood - meant that it was another six hours before the rescue services could reach the stricken village


<snip>

Blanford reveals that Israeli warplanes actually continued to bomb the town while the rescue workers were pulling ragdoll-dead children out of the building. That's cold, man. Cold:

' An earth-mover ground down the lane and began clawing chunks of concrete away from the building. Even as the rescue team toiled to recover the dead, Israeli jets continued to roar overhead and the thump of air strikes and exploding artillery shells reverberated around the steep valley. '

http://www.juancole.com/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Did anybody see the guy's reaction on CNN?

The bald guy with the red shirt at the scene of the crime.

Somebody give that guy the Nobel.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. This is a major PR disaster for Israel - why would they undertake such...

...action?:shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

4. Seriously

Does anyone think the Israelis are so evil they would just kill people for kicks when they would undoubtedly get a blowback like this? How dumb would they have to be?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

Yes and very.

[rockymountaindem]

12. That's nuts

Nobody would act against their own self-interest in such a disasterous way.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. Nobody sane would...and you're right, it is nuts.

[Rex]

23. Well then most Americans musts be nuts.

We've done nothing but act against our own self-interest, for 6 years now. I say anyone can fool themselves into doing 'the right thing' for all the wrong reasons. It is also possible to do everything 'right' and still lose or end up doing it all wrong. It happens and Israel wasn't the first country to do so, I blame America's foreign policy for most of this crap.

[Lerkfish]

68. um...open your eyes? it's happening, dude.

[mom cat]

75. The US does it all the time. Look at how our use of depleted uranium

blows back on us. Hyper testosteroneitus kills brain cells.

[deaniac21]

147. Why do they call that stuff depleted?

[me b zola]

150. Why do you keep asking that question when you have been answered?

on edit, I thought I would refresh your memory:

deaniac21 (849 posts) Fri Jul-28-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message

3. I wonder why they call it "depleted"?




------------------ ------------------ -----------------


MadHound (1000+ posts) Fri Jul-28-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #3

4. Because through it's former use in a reactor
It has expended most of its radioactivity. It is safe enough in solid form, it is an alpha and beta emitter, both of which can be blocked with either your skin or a piece of cloth. You can have a chunk of it in the same room with you for weeks and months and suffer no ill effects.

However when it is stuck on the end of a missle and is blown to dust, that dust is inhaled or ingested and the skin can no longer block the radiation, and being a heavy metal, it is toxic.

All in all it is a slow motion genocide that keeps on killing long after the war is done.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1756856

[deaniac21]

177. Are you familiar with the term "junk science"?

[mom cat]

165. Because it is the waste from nuclear plants that are still very

radioactive, but not enough so that they are still useful in reactors. The term "depleted" makes then sound innocous, They are not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

108. Has there been a sane society in 3,000 years?

[enough]

111. The OP called it "state terror." Terror has a specific purpose.

Israel is not concerned with world opinion. Israel has a specific purpose.

[Minstrel Boy]

13. "kill people for kicks"

Of course not. Ethnic cleansing of a buffer zone isn't just for kicks.

[rockymountaindem]

16. If this was ethnic cleansing

The dead would number in the thousands if not the tens of thousands. If this was ethnic cleansing, Israel would have broken out the poison gas by now.

[bdamomma]

21. no they have white phosphorus supplied by us.

[rockymountaindem]

29. White phosphorus is not a banned weapon

and is definately not as efficient as things like gas and high explosives in matters such as this. It has very specific applications. I don't deny it is a very nasty weapon, but it is not suitable for mass murder.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. It's banned by the Geneva Conventions.

I don't know what weapons conventions you're talking about that it's not banned under.

[bdamomma]

41. yea, like the Geneva Conventions mean anything to these wack jobs

[Pavulon]

49. I believe the GC bans

it as an anti personnel weapon. So it is used for "illumination" or to mark a position. As the Gc bans firing cannons at people, so helicopters fire at the trucks behind them.

That is how it has been explained to me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. That's a pretty silly explanation.

You don't illuminate positions by dropping white phosphorous on children.

That's like Saddam saying "I wasn't trying to gas the kurds, I was trying to fumigate some termites."

[Pavulon]

67. I'm not explaining it

just saying that how firing a 25mm cannon ( a GC no no )at people is generally justified.

It is used as a marker and as illumination.

[Phrogman]

78. You're not even supposed to shoot a .50 cal at people

but their bunker is fair game.

[The Revolution]

114. A friend of mine is in the marines

And he was told you couldn't shoot people, but you could shoot equipment. And that technically a belt buckle is equipment...

[Recursion]

132. GC bans no weapons

GC sets standards for treatment of civilians, wounded, and prisoners of war. In a tactical environment, you are allowed to engage any target with any weapon, though you are supposed to use as little force as is possible to obtain the tactical advantage you seek. eg, if you had both a cannon and a rifle, you should use the rifle if it would get the job done.

[rockymountaindem]

Where is it banned under Geneva conventions?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Protocol III 1980.

[rockymountaindem]

63. This?

"(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
(ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/int/convention_conventional-wpns_prot-iii.htm

That is essentially what white phosphorous is used for: to penetrate a tank or hardpoint. It can't just be sprayed everywhere like napalm or Greek fire.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Penetrate a tank?

You're thinking of depleted uranium.

White phosphorous is used to firebomb people and structures, setting them on fire. Notable examples include the firebombing of London, Dresden, and Tokyo during WWII.

[Pavulon]

69. WP is used as a smoke

and illumination. It is an incendiary as well. A weapon of war.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. You suppose those kind's got hit...

with random flares?

[rockymountaindem]

73. "but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles"

That means tanks. White phosphorous, and its cousin thermite, can penetrate a tank. DU can do that as well, with kenetic energy. WP and thermite just burn right on through. WP was used in WWII for the purposes you cite, but also for anti-vehicle purposes. In fact, when the Germans first faced British tanks in WWI, their first reaction to take them out was to use plain old phosphorous bombs. Today's munitions are designed to direct a blast of phosphorous in a straight line into a tank, as opposed to the early experiments which just threw phosphorous in a 360 degree circle to little effect.

A video is worth a thousand words:
Thermite: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7231843493488769585

The HEAT round:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEAT

The "concentrated jet of molten metal" mentioned in that article can also be done with phosphorus.

Phosphorus is an excellent anti-tank and anti-bunker weapon. For anti-personnel attacks, my guess is Israel and any other modern army would just use the cheaper alternative: napalm.

[LostinVA]

86. How can someone bend themselves into a pretzel

trying to rationalize the use of this FUCKING SHIT on ANYONE, let alone Innocent people -- especially children.

My god.

Do you hear yourself? Do you honestly not care? Or are you just caught up in some kind of intellectual masturbation showmanship? Because, ANYONE that tries so hard to prove a weapon like this is "legal" is truly.... mind blowing.

My god.

[rockymountaindem]

92. That it is legal may blow your mind

but legal is legal and banned is banned. If using WP makes one a war criminal, than Winston Churchill, Dwight Eisenhower, Harry Truman and Franklin Roosevelt are all war criminals. Harry Truman in particular, having been a WWI artilleryman, probably fired off one or two phosphorescent rounds in his day. Whether anybody wants to justify or condemn its use, it remains a legal weapon of war according to the evidence collected in this thread. To my knowledge, the only alternative to WP are napalm and thermite, neither of which are any gentler.

If you want to stop the killing, stop the war; don't just go after one specific weapon.

[bdamomma]

39. I thought White phosphorus was a banned weapon just like depleted uranium

[Pavulon]

52. DU is not banned

It is used by NATO as a standard anti armor round.

[geek tragedy]

80. It's an incendiary that's restricted in use.

Akin to napalm.

[arcane1]

45. it's an excellent weapon of terror, however n/t

[Bretttido]

59. It doesn't matter even if it were a legal weapon, there is no point

in a weapon that kills its victims slowly or scars them for life... other then as a source of terror.

[tyedyeto]

170. Not banned?

Probably not when used by the USA in Iraq and by Israel. But if is used by one of the 'enemy' nations, do you think we would be calling foul play? Of course we would, but since that is not the case.....whatever the 'west' does, it's fine.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. What was it the Israeli Justice Minister said last Thursday?

He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

[leftchick]

51. yes and now they call their deliberate war crimes

"A mistake" :puke:

[JackNewtown]

98. Israel is progressive and minimizes civilian deaths

Clearly the BBC is an anti-Semitic organization fabricating quotes.

[Pavulon]

35. No need

read up on curtis lemay and bomber harris. Israel could kill tens if not hundreds of thousands a day with mass attacks.

That is not their goal.

[Ghost Dog]

104. You are right, here. But Israel's actions are still disproportionate

in targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure.

[martymar64]

125. No it's cheaper to kill them slowly

by bombing their civilian infrastructure (dairy farms, water treatment plants, power plants, hospitals, etc)
Let starvation and disease kill them for you.
Truly perverse.

[theanarch]

42. ethnic cleansing isn't necessarily genocide...

...driving 750,000 Shi'ia out of the southern Lebanon, and unilaterally denying the protections of the Geneva Convention and UN Charter to those civilians who will not, or cannot, leave, works just as well. In this context, "cleansing" does not have to be mass extermination; just creating conditions where people will leave in fear for their lives is enough.

[LostinVA]

87. Correct n/t

[Canuckistanian]

61. You don't need to kill thousands

Just kill about 2% of the population in a brutal manner and the rest will leave. Quickly.

That's how it was done in Bosnia.

[JackNewtown]

99. Right nt

[Ms. Clio]

101. that's not what ethnic cleansing means

"Ethnic cleansing—the use of force or intimidation to remove people of
a certain ethnic or religious group from an area."

More from the same article:

Ethnic cleansing is a blanket term, and no specific crime goes by that name, but the practice covers a host of criminal offenses. The United Nations Commission of Experts, in a January 1993 report to the Security Council, defined “ethnic cleansing” as “rendering an area ethnically homogenous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area.” It said ethnic cleansing was carried out in the former Yugoslavia by means of murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assault, confinement of the civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property. The Commission’s final report in May 1994 added these crimes: mass murder, mistreatment of civilian prisoners and prisoners or war, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of cultural property, robbery of personal property, and attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem.

http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/ethnic-cleansing.html

[Chulanowa]

149. Not necessarily

Forced relocation also counts in the "Ethnic cleansing" file.

[leftchick]

19. they are neocons running the show

much like our very own neocons they are insane. They don't have to be dumb, drunk with power sums it up.

[EVDebs]

88. This military action will go on for MONTHS now that Hezbollah is seen

as being moved back from Lebanon's border with Israel. Expect even a possible attack on Syria, which harbors Hezbollah also; then you may see a ceasefire etc. but you can't reasonably think, with Hezbollah and the media thinking that Hezbollah has reached some kind of 'victory' for holding out for two weeks that Israel will stop with that in the media's mind.

Besides, Nasrallah has called for 'open war' unending anyway...why stop ?

Unless Syria and the Iranians tell Hezbollah to stop, which they aren't about to ... this will go on and on and on...

But wait. Today I heard that NO rockets were fired into Israel. Maybe that's just a lull while everybody reloads...or else someone is talking in the background and we just can't make out what's being said yet.

Pray for peace and cooler heads to prevail. Allah and/or Y-W-H don't need bullets and rockets and bombs to do their work for them, one would think they are capable of miracles all by themselves. God's little helpers on earth certainly have made a mess of things.

[QuestionAll...]

27. as dumb as bush's Iraq? along with those lies...

nah....

I feel there is a concentrated program to harvest hate toward Isreal and American - done by Isreal and America for their purpose.

[arcane1]

44. why not? The U.S. has been doing it

and since we are the only country that would stop Israel, there's no reason why not

[Hoping4Change]

57. Israel has absolutely no concern about how they are viewed.

They have US support sewn up and that is all that matters.

[HongKonger]

107. They did the same thing in Qana

Ten years ago and killed over 100 people in a UN refugee camp.

The response was pretty tough in the European and Arab Media - but not in the US media.

So yes, I say are the current neoconservative Likudniks in charge of the state of Israel are that evil - not Israelis.

The defense minister of Israel has stated that Hezbollah held them hostage in there, which there would be evidence of - from the survivors who lost their families don't you think?

And I think the blowback surprised the hell out of them. The CNN, BBC, and Arab cams were there fast. The Internet has been in an uproar.

[pooja]

5. to insight the rest of the arab nations so that US can get involved

[kenny blankenship]

6. Notice how quickly Rice picked up her coffin full of dirt && left for USA?

As soon as news of the attack got out?
(That means no more pressure to ceasefire: it means the news media report "this potential round of truce negotiations has been aborted", and it means another couple of weeks to continue the ethnic cleansing of the Shia enclave of Southern Lebanon.)

[bdamomma]

18. she left because the Lebanese government asked her to go

after that massacre in Quana. Like what is she going to say, she is nothing but another tool of the bush regime.

[leftchick]

9. because

FINALLY the USA said Go For It!!!!!

:argh:

[Cooley Hurd]

17. But, are they THAT oblivious to the fact that NO ONE (besides the neocons)

...are backing this heinous shit?

I'm really perplexed!!!!!:(

[leftchick]

it seems we have a LOT of Democratic neocons

who are backing this shit. AIPAC has reached very far into the democratic party. Money talks, dead Arabs do not.

:(

[bdamomma]

43. just follow the money how many of those lobbyists are of jewish

persuasion, and supply both the dems and repubs.

[wordpix2]

169. OK, how many since you're lumping all Jews together? Name & count them

for us, please.

Nothing like a derogatory stereotype, geesh.

[malaise]

25. MSMachine now has journalists

embedded with the Israeli army (CNN - don't know about the others). Think about that for fair and balanced coverage.

[katty]

30. Only PR disaster for Israel...but death for the mothers and children

[Clarkie1]

94. Answer: It WAS a mistake.

[JackNewtown]

100. You know this how?

Here is what Israel's own "Justice" Minister said: "He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.


He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

[leftchick]

109. The Israeli government has made it quite clear

and they won't be having any body counts either. Sound familiar?

[JackNewtown]

145. Yes, but I support it when Israel does it, oppose it when */PNAC do it ; )

[truth2power]

113. Somebody count up how many "mistakes"

Israel has claimed, so far, in their latest little enterprise. Everything's a mistake. Then they go on and do it again.

They're using the very same playbook as the Bushco criminals. It worked quite well for them. Why shouldn't Israel use it?


It was a "mistake" that nobody took note of that PDB that said "Osama determined to strike in US." It was a "mistake" that the famous 16 words weren't taken out of the President's SOU address. And on and on and on...

I think Israel has finally overplayed their victimhood card.

[eridani]

106. Their purpose is to depopulate south Lebanon

--and control the water in the Litani River. Straightforward resource grab.

[kentuck]

134. Because they want to "scare" the civilians out of that area?

Otherwise, they will never leave and they need that area to be cleared so they can have their buffer zone? Sometimes a little "fear" has a way of being contagious in a war...

[wordpix2]

168. because Hezbollah with rockets were hiding out in Qana, maybe?

or at least, there was probably a tip that was the case

[Mandate My Ass]

3. As per usual their only mistake was being caught

They continued the indiscriminate bombing raids as if nothing "accidental" had happened.

[Pavulon]

7. Kind of half Assad(auto spell picked it). I mean

if you want to kill people with air power you can do much better than 50 at a time.

Bomber Harris and curtis lemay managed to kill millions 60 years ago. hundreds of thousands in a few days.

Let that number sink in a bit.

You think the f-15 can carry more or less than a b24?

Fly more or less sorties a day.

If they wanted a body count they could do much better than the current rate.

You statement is all emotion and no fact.

[BuyingThyme]

20. You have proven terrorism.

[Pavulon]

32. I made a STATEMENT

just like the OP. I don't claim to prove anything.

[BuyingThyme]

38. Okay then.

[Magical]

36. Must be Hell

Defending the wanton murder of children on the basis that since more weren't killed it can't be a war crime.

[Pavulon]

40. Open War

Events are now taking on their own momentum. We will be LUCKY if we do not get pulled into a regional war. It will be a MIRACLE if the killing stays on the scale it is on now.

I don' think that is the case.

Call it what you like. It makes no difference.

It is the same now as in carthage, france (twice) and throughout history.

Innocents die in war. There is no workaround, no fix. It is a by product of war. The only way to prevent ot is to stop the war.

[Magical]

54. Agreed...

While there is tremendous outrage and there should be over the latest atrocity...
It is only one in long string throughout history...
And more recently in bombed out villages of Afghanistan and Iraq...

The rational mind can come up with excuses, justifications, obfuscations, and lies, but the fact remains...

The blood has been spilled and we have learned nothing from our past.

[HongKonger]

110. They could also just nuke the place

Some tactical nukes picked up on the sly from their friends in Washington.

That was a different war, different players and a different time.

Apples and oranges.

The fact of the matter is - International Law now bans the wholesale destruction of civilian populations and property based on the actions of your 'war' heroes.

You point is moot.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. K&R... The situation seems to worsen each hour.

http://www.knology.net/~rareandfirsts/Maguire-Eve_Destruction.mp3

[malaise]

46. But yuh tell me over and over and over again

my friend...
Thanks for that Tom - I'm singing along. I became an adult singing this and Black Skin Blue Eyed Boys..
http://www.toronto-lime.com/music/reggae.htm

Scroll down to Check out Classic Rockers for Marley's Real Situation, Who Di Cap Fit, and One Love. Dennis Brown's Love and Hate is also appropriate.
headline.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

95. Great link! Bookmarked! Thanks.

[malaise]

148. You're welcome

I've been sharing yours with friends and family all day.

[AlamoDemoc]

10. Of course, it was deliberate, and without a doubt it was deliberate

This is exactly what the Palestinians experience on daily basis in Gaza.

[leftchick]

14. absolutely

If only the poor Palistinians had this sort of coverage. :cry:

[Pavulon]

28. For no reason at all.

http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Archive/Press+Releases/2001/03/Spokesman1744.htm

[AlamoDemoc]

50. The link that picture came from is from Israelis Prime Ministers office

:puke:

[Pavulon]

53. SO

i could find a link to the same fact if you really cant stand that one.

[AlamoDemoc]

62. I am questioning the credibility of the website...

The fact that you are using government website to prove a point is troubling.

[Pavulon]

72. I did a google search

you can too and find plenty of other links that cover this FACT.

Here is a much better source...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,463809,00.html

[Burried News]

85. Good catch.

Good that you caught it. Disgusting that it makes its way to these boards. Not the first time the blogosphere is saturated when things aren't going so well for the "home" team.

[Pavulon]

97. Poster attacked the source

not the facts. Pretty basic stuff. Kids do that, not grown ups.

Here is the same story (or maybe some other kid shot by palestinians) from a different source..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,463809,00.html

So the PM's office cant issue press releases.

What is the point of your comment?

[cracksquirrel]

136. Disgusting

I predict a prolongued silence in response to this story and the picture posted earlier. I thought Israelis weren't allowed to be victims in this conflict.

[Rex]

11. Martyrs, that is what they call the innocents who die.

Kinda like Christ. I'm telling ya folks, the more Israel bombs the shit outta Lebanon, the more powerful Hezbollah will become. For every Martyr there are two others willing to fight to become the next martyr. The cycle will only end when everyone's dead. :cry:

[bdamomma]

33. that is what our regime wants for everyone to kill off themselves

with the neo cons support of course, we are supplying countries with our weapons. There is such BS that is going on, this once great nation is supplying other nations with weapons, this is where our taxpayer money is going to bomb other countries????????

[fujiyama]

173. "This once great nation"

has ALWAYS supplied other nations with weapons (or atleast has done so sinc the end of WWII). I can think of several brutal regimes the US supported during the cold war - let's see...Iraq (and Iran), Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Indonesia...Of course, Israel has typically been the largest beneficiary of US military aid, but it's not unique in that regard.

This isn't exactly something new...though I do have to say it's probably to a greater extent than even the cold war.

[malaise]

22. Israel is now spinning this

big time with some rubbish about when it happened. They are now trying to suggest that they may not have done this. Of course someone else must have stolen those new bunker buster bombs.

[leftchick]

24. oh, and about that bush "freedom and democracy in the Mideast"?

<snip>

Amid the despair and the grim task of removing the victims, there was deep anger at what they regarded as the callous indifference of the West to their suffering. "We will never wave the white flag. We won't retreat," said Mohammad Shalhoub. "I say to the West, this is not the kind of freedom and democracy we want."

:(

[DistressedAmerican]

31. K&R For The Infuriating Truth!

:kick:

[tnlefty]

37. "That's cold, man. Cold"

All I can do is shake my head and try to hold back tears.

Lebanon, Iraq - all of it just makes me sick.

[bdamomma]

48. it makes me sick too, because the whole world is watching

us for a diplomatic resolution and we have not given one yet, plus we have these RW Authoritarians in office who just want to see death and destruction of other nations, we can all speculate on these deadly actions but you all know we are behind this all, and other nations are calling us out now that the United States is behind all of this. Sickening truly sickening what if those children were our children being blown up?????????????

[tnlefty]

64. I've tried that appeal to my republican relatives, and to my dismay I've

discovered that they don't care. It's as if they have no capacity for empathy with people who are oppressed, or having bombs dropped on their heads, or are living with roving gangs and all of the killing that goes on every day. It breaks my heart that it is going on and also because they just don't seem to give a flying rat's ass.

[bdamomma]

89. unless this all begins to affects us personally , people will have

that attitude of "well it's not happening here, or to me" it's business as usual, terrible to say but there is no humanity anymore.

[lostnfound]

102. Amen.

Capacity for truth-denial is amazing.

[LA lady]

47. Human Rights Watch

Read this report and then try to sleep tonight:

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

Israel/Lebanon: Israel Responsible for Qana Attack
Indiscriminate Bombing in Lebanon a War Crime
(Beirut, July 30, 2006) – Responsibility for the Israeli airstrikes that killed at least 54 civilians sheltering in a home in the Lebanese village of Qana rests squarely with the Israeli military, Human Rights Watch said today. It is the latest product of an indiscriminate bombing campaign that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have waged in Lebanon over the past 18 days, leaving an estimated 750 people dead, the vast majority of them civilians.
“Today’s strike on Qana, killing at least 54 civilians, more than half of them children, suggests that the Israeli military is treating southern Lebanon as a free-fire zone,” said Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch. “The Israeli military seems to consider anyone left in the area a combatant who is fair game for attack.”

much more at link

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. US/Israel are out of control

They have become the very monsters they supposedly are defending us against.

Didn't Hitler do stuff like this?

[Junkdrawer]

58. They're trying to provoke a Syrian/Iranian response...

That's all I can figure... :shrug:

[RepublicanElephant]

66. bingo!

quickest route to the world's largest oilfield.

[Lerkfish]

70. DINGDINGDINGDING! we have a winner!

yes, I am convinced this is precisely what is going on.

[bdamomma]

90. I wish those nations would come up with the same conclusion

as you did. Now Syria is getting their troops ready for any confrontation. Unbelieveable, these people did not ask to be invaded, just like Iraq, where is the old precedent that you use military force as a last resort????? This is exactly what bush has made people brainwashed with, strike first before anyone else does it, pure BS and for those who believe this stuff they are as crazy as him.

[Nothing Without Hope]

118. Yes - and they also want the ***WATER*** of Southern Lebanon

They have been threatening attacks over the major springs 3 miles north of the border for years. I've posted more on this issue here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1744760&mesg_id=1754772

They want to remove competition for taking the precious water of southern Lebanon.

I don't doubt that they are trying to incite attacks from Syria and Iran, but there is also a second major purpose behind Israel's actions. They have loudly demanded the fresh water of Southern Lebanon for years. Read this quote from the New York Times from 2002 and see if the hair on your neck doesn't rise:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E4D7103BF93BA35753C1A9649C8B63
World Briefing | Middle East:

Lebanon: Water Dispute With Israel

Published: October 8, 2002
Senior officials from the United States Embassy in Beirut met Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri to try to defuse a dispute with Israel over Lebanon's plans to use water both countries say they need. Israel has said it takes a ''grave view'' of Lebanon's plan to pipe water to southern villages from the Wazzani Springs, three miles north of the Israeli border. The springs feed the Hasbani River, a tributary of the Jordan River, which is a major source of Israel's fresh water. Lebanon says that it is within its rights under international law and that it plans to open a pumping station soon.

Ah yes, those "southern villages," daring to use the Lebanese water that Israel covets. Israel's current actions are aimed at taking them out of competition for that water. Look for Israel to look for a "secure peace" that will allow them to take this Lebanese water.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

74. We hate the sin, not the sinner. n/t

[leftchick]

76. wtf?

uh, no I do not "hate Israel" I hate their foreign policy of terror. Just like I do not hate the USA, I hate the USA's foreign policy of terror. Is that a little more clear for your black and white vision?

[Warren Stupidity]

77. And you can't get enough dead babies to satisfy your blood lust.

Sheesh.

[scarletwoman]

79. I hate Israeli government policy. Just as I hate Bushco's policies.

I refuse to be labeled as "anti-American" for criticizing the fucked up things that the U.S. government has done and is doing.

And I refuse to be labeled as "anti-Israel" for criticizing the fucked up things that Israel has done and is doing.

In fact, NO government on this earth gets a pass from me if they are doing fucked up things. I refuse to make exceptions.

sw

[LostinVA]

81. Why have most of your posts been insulting and over-the-top lately

They have been just appalling and bullying. Constant ad hominen attacks.

And, that's not even taking into consideration your constant approval of warmongering.

For shame.

[leftchick]

83. and very odd for a liberal

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

84. giggle

[Clark2008]

82. Wow - such pearls of wisdom there!

:eyes:

"You're either with us or again' us."

That's exactly what you sound like: a person, like Bush, who only sees in black or white. What are you? A dog?

[WillyT]

91. Dude... You Forgot The Sarcasm Tag...

:wtf:

[leftchick]

93. the dude has been retired

permanently. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

105. Thank the gods

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. Who got tombstoned?

Does this mean I can shorten my 'ignore' list?

[Nothing Without Hope]

96. The fanatics running this in Israel's government clearly believe that

they can do absolutely ANYTHING without accountability. I believe that they and the neocons in the US government are deliberately TRYING to incite a wider war with Syria and espeically Iran.

Blowback? They're not worried. They're saying with their bombs: bring it on! And the US neocons and their Likud allies can hardly wait.

[JackNewtown]

103. Being exempt from UN penalties is quite a luxury

Of course, Israel is not the only non-veto-wielding nation with this. Just ask Turkey.

[Dan P]

115. While I don't agree with Israel's Strategery ...

There seems to be mounting evidence that Hezbollah may have staged aspects of the Qana aftermath to make it seem worse than it was. If the only roads leading out were unpassable, how did so many photographers get there so quickly?

[leftchick]

116. links?

what evidence? The IDF admitted they committed this atrocity.

[Dan P]

119. Qana Photos

I agree it is an atrocity to bomb civilians, but it's also fairly atrocious to parade around for the cameras carrying dead children. I don't agree with or have enough independent facts to ascertain some of the allegations on the website listed below, but I can't think of what else the "rescue worker" is doing in that series of photos besides posing for pity.

eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

[Minstrel Boy]

121. ho-leeee

shit:

"it's also fairly atrocious to parade around for the cameras carrying dead children"

:puke:

[Dan P]

122. Yea, those pictures make me want to puke, too.

May as well send in dubya with a bullhorn

[muriel_volestrangler]

124. You're seriously saying showing a dead body is comparable to killing them?

Do you regard funerals as atrocities too? When we remind people that a person is dead?

Or are you just saying that the Lebanese shouldn't get angry about the killing of dozens of children, and should shut up and hope that Israel decides to stop boimbing them even when they don't see the results?

[Dan P]

128. How do you get there?

I'm not sure why you would ask such a question about funerals. It is certainly horrible that innocent people are dead, but I don't see much difference between the use of these staged photo ops there and politicians here spewing "nineleven nineleven". If "journalist" (or others) want to take pictures of the carnage to show the world the REAL hell that is war, fine, they should. But the photos shouldn't be staged. I think it dishonors the dead and weakens the arguments against Israel's actions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

135. I 'get there' from your sentence

"I agree it is an atrocity to bomb civilians, but it's also fairly atrocious to parade around for the cameras carrying dead children."

It is not "atrocious" that they wanted the world to see that children had been killed. That's all the 'staging' that was going on. Those children really were dead. They died because of the bomb dropped on them. It doesn't weaken the argument.

A funeral is a public ceremony. If you think it dishonors the dead to remind the world that someone has died, I presume you would be against funerals too. After all, they could just be quietly burnt or cremated by a professional ,without any public show at all.

[Dan P]

139. I think you're still missing the point

I never said it "dishonors the dead to remind the world that someone has died." Not even close. It dishonors the dead to use them as a political prop, which is clearly going on in these staged photos.

[leftchick]

129. oh I get it now!

Just like those rescue workers in the Oklahoma City Bombing were posing those dead kids for pity right?

:eyes:

[Dan P]

131. You probably mean Oklahoma City

but nevertheless, I don't recall seeing the same rescue worker carrying the same dead child all over town back then. It's unclear to me why I seemed to be getting attacked here for pointing out something that seems rather odd - namely, that the rescue worker is POSING for the fucking cameras with a dead child in his arms. wtf? I mean, is it a lifeless human he's holding or political prop? It's despicable what Israel did, but it's no less despicable for Hezbollah to act like Karl Rove by manipulating images for the media.

[leftchick]

137. those filthy Iraqis do it too!

Every time the USA bombs the crap out of their towns and kills their babies they parade them around! Despicable!



:sarcasm:

[Dan P]

140. if you have to put the sarcasm icon in your message

perhaps you're not making your point clearly enough.

but it is a good way to avoid having to post substance, I suppose.

[leftchick]

142. perhaps you are ignoring my point

which is quite clear to anyone not being deliberately obtuse. People in anguish over the deaths of their children want the world to see the actions of the terrorists. No matter who the terrorists are. Pretty simple isn't it?

[Dan P]

143. Yes, that is quite simple

but my point is that the aggreived (and the dead) are being manipulated not necessarily for the benefit of Lebanese but more likely for the benefit of Hezbollah's agenda. I don't see what is obtuse about that. I find it troubling because using images like this is no different than the US using 9/11 images to justify its terrible agenda.

[leftchick]

155. and quite simply the truth

It is so sad that when Israel uses images of terror attacks they get a pass. Everyone else in the Arab world is villified for doing the same.

[Dan P]

176. whoa general

Israel gets a pass when they use images of terror? A pass for what? get out of the next suicide bombing on the morning commute for free? bank error in your favor, all Syrian/Saudi/Iranian money deposited into Hezbollah accounts is now yours?

[leftchick]

157. I don't think so. This poor guy looks, tired, sad and grieving

I would too...



A Lebanese rescuer carries the body of a young girl recovered from under the rubble of a demolished building that was struck by Israeli warplane missiles at the village of Qana, near the southern city of Tyre, Lebanon, Sunday, July 30, 2006. The Associated Press and two other news agencies on Tuesday, Aug. 1, 2006,rejected challenges to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon, strongly denying that the images were staged. (AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari)

Dead babies are Dead babies. :(

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brindis_desala]

141. You've picked up on something key that I am inclined to concur with.

There are heartless machiavellian actors behind the curtains of this murderous pornography. I suspect it is to isolate the Arab leadership from the "Arab street", the hope being that they will be forced to respond militarily ushering in the neo-con wet-dream for WWIII. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

[Dan P]

144. You may very well be right

I wonder sometimes if I should fit myself with a tinfoil hat, but it's becoming painfully apparent that there is nothing beyond the pale with neocons - and anyone else who thinks in absolutist terms.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

152. Go back to whence you came!

OUT, DEMON! I EXORCIZE THEE!

[Dan P]

159. yes, anyone or any facts that interfere with your worldview

must just go away. it's just not fair that there are often many facets to consider. Why oh why can't it just be a true/false test?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

164. I'm sorry.I'm just a stupid Democrat so the best rebutt I care to share is

[Dan P]

166. duh ha ha. that's funny

look, I appreciate humor as well as the next guy. But blindly repeating the party line and mocking contradictory positions on ANY issue just shows your inablitily to think independently. The beauty of the democratic party (and, unfortunately their demise) is its willingness to consider ALL positions. The idiots that seek some sort of ephemeral one voice from our party might as well go join Heaven's Gate.

[me b zola]

154. Taking your talking points from Limpballs?

The NYT story that is in LBN refutes Limpball's and other rw nut's claims:

News Agencies Stand by Lebanon Photos

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2429007

[Dan P]

160. well, if it's in the NYTimes it MUST be true

special thanks to Al Gore, whom the NYTimes reported claimed that he invented this nifty thing called the internet

[Quantess]

178. I think Dan P came here

because Rush Limpballs "enlightened" him, and he wanted to share what he "learned" from his idol Rush.

Dan P, you do know that Rush Limbaugh is a drug addled hypocrite, right? And, the longer you listen to him, the less likely it is you will ever get laid. Oh sure, Rush gets affection, but that's only because he's a wealthy celebrity. Rush-isms will make women drop you like a hot potato. Then there you'll be, a year older and even more bitter and sexless than before.

[Marr]

151. Yeah, sure- they did it to themselves. And they deserved it.

:sarcasm:

Always the same excuses.

[Dan P]

153. whatever, dude n/t

[Nothing Without Hope]

117. They want to empty out southern Lebanon so they can take the ***WATER***

Israel has been after this water and threatening attacks for it for years. The southern villages are their competitors for the water. I believe that taking the water is one of the main reasons behind these attacks, along with inciting a wider war with Syria and especially Iran.

I've posted with links on the water issue here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1744760&mesg_id=1754772

There are major springs of water 3 miles north of the border and Israel wants all of it.

[oberliner]

123. No, they don't

Posting and re-posting the same four-year old articles on the subject notwithstanding.

In fact, one may argue that Hezbollah is using the idea of "protecting Lebanon's water" for propaganda purposes.

That there was, and continueds to be, a dispute about the Wazzani springs is undeniable.

The water resources of the Hasbani river have been shared by Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan since the early 1950s.

The Wazzani pumping station would have directed more of those resources to Lebanon and less to Israel.

That Israel wanting to "take Lebanon's water" is one of the "main reasons behind these attacks" is, to say the least, spurious.

If Hezbollah had disarmed and disbanded when Israel withdrew from Lebanon and the Lebanese army took control of the southern border, and Israel still attacked Lebanon anyway, then I think there would be some justification in making claims such as these.

[martymar64]

126. Here's a link as per Israel's intentions (Israeli website)

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2002/july/b1.htm

Read it and then tell me how innocent Israel is.

[oberliner]

127. That's a pretty darn right-wing web site you've chosen

Certainly there are some fanatical right-wingers in Israel as, sadly, there are everywhere.

I would not identify the hateful rhetoric of that site as being representative of Israel's intentions.

[GOPFighter]

130. Your post title upsets me

Qana Was No Fucking "Mistake" It Is Israeli State Terror And Nothing Else.

And nothing else? How can you be so sure??? This is a very complicated conflict. Neither side is beyond reproach. We are all aghast at the innocent civilians that are being killed. But I'm not convinced the Israelis are any less barbarous than Hezbolah. I understand your outrage when reading about the children killed but you're certainty of who's to blame for it (Israeli State Terror) is troubling to me.

[DistressedAmerican]

133. All Aghast. But, not all calling for an end.

That is the HUGE difference between being a bit disturbed and doing something about it.

[GOPFighter]

158. Are you implying that I approve of this war...

...and the attrocities like Qana because I didn't specifically state that I want this horrorific war to end? I find that insulting, but, okay, for those of you who assume everyone is a freeper and approves of this war unless they say otherwise: I, GOPFighter, want this fuckin' war to end!

Now, as for the "...and doing something about it," please tell me how I can stop this war and I'll do it. And while you're at it tell me how I can stop our own country from killing innocent Iraqis, because believe me I've done everything I can think of and I can't even stop my own disturbed president from toturing prisoners. If you haven't been able to stop these wars, then please stop accusing others of not "doing something about it."

[leftchick]

146. so sorry to "trouble you"

I am troubled by close to one THOUSAND dead people who did nothing to Israel


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1790261

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0801-02.htm





A Red Cross rescuer worker walks past dead bodies after Israeli air strikes on the southern Lebanese village of Qana. An enraged Lebanon was plunged into mourning for the 52 victims of an Israeli bombardment on the southern village of Qana, as the press lashed out at the "butchery" of the raid.(AFP/Nicolas Asfouri)

'No Hezbollah Rockets Fired from Qana'
by Dahr Jamail

QANA - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.

The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the truth."

<snip>

Qana had been a shelter because no rockets were being fired from there, survivors said. "When Hezbollah fires their rockets, everyone runs away because they know an Israeli bombardment will come soon," Abdel said. "That is why everyone stayed in the shelter and nearby homes, because we all thought we'd be all right since there were no Hezbollah fighters in Qana."

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched rockets from Qana.

[GOPFighter]

156. Tell me

Tell me how you are so certain the sources you choose to believe are not engaging in propaganda? What happened in Qana is horrific and even if Hezbollah used innocent civilians as shields, the Israelis are going to pay heavily for it. But when fanatics engage in war, truth and innocent people are the biggest victims. And there are fanatics on both sides of this war.

I'm always troubled by people who are certain their view of the world is right and lash out at anyone who disagrees. I share your outrage and weep at the thought of those innocent kids whose lives were snuffed out, but I'm always troubled by people who are certain their view of the world is right and lash out at anyone who disagrees. I believe the title to your post was inflammatory, closed minded, and went against the spirit of open discourse on DemocraticUnderground.

[leftchick]

161. believe what you wish

I find it disturbing and "troubling" you question the reporting of the courageous journalist Dahr Jamail. That speaks volumes in my book as to where you are coming from.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Snivi Yllom]

162. tell the Hezbollah terrorists to stop hiding among civilians

The deaths of Lebanese civilians and the widespread destruction is one of the goals of Hezbollah to generate additional sympathy to their cause.

There is no way Israel intentionally meant to kill women and children.

[fujiyama]

174. Isn't that the kind of justification

terrorists in Iraq have given when killing women and children? "There were US soldiers there passing out candies to kids. Ergo, the kids were dispensable...."

When you become so cold that even innocent children killed are just "collatoral damage", are you not closer to the enemy? I could EASILLY see a Hezbollah leader like Nasrallah ordering a bombing of Israelis and saying "all Israelis serve in the military and therefore they are hiding among the civilian population".

I'm not saying the Israelis purposely bombed the village, because I cannot for the life of me, see even the slightest strategic value of doing so...but this event troubles me greatly. I strongly sympathize with Israel's place in the world and believe at times it's unfairly targetted...and I have seen anti Semitic elements rear their head in criticizing Israel...

But what happened really is unacceptable.

[upi402]

163. I think USA wants Israel to provoke Iran/Syria war

Rethugs love the war drums before elections.

[wordpix2]

171. I am very concerned about this, too

[bananarepublican]

172. Bingo! Why else would Israeli intelligence become suddenly so incompetent?

I made mention on a previous post that any military or intelligence bungle should be met with a significant cut in the offending organization's budget.

This is diametrically opposite to the Bush Administration's policy of rewarding incompetence.

[Harper_is_Bush]

175. They didn't know all those people were in there.

They knew civilian casualties would happen as they put a policy of slash and burn in place, but they probably hoped most would flee. It was inept.

But yes, it's terrorism.