My son got in trouble AGAIN for NOT saying the Pledge of Allegiance

[in_cog_ni_to]

and Mrs. Jones is going to get her ass chewed out tomorrow and my LONG list of SHIT this administration has done to my country to show her exactly WHY we are not so PROUD of this freakin' country.

My son is 12 and in 7th grade. Today he stood, but did not say the Pledge, as he always does. She went up to him and asked him, "What? Do you think it's cool not to say the Pledge of Allegiance and disrespect your flag and nation?":grr: I am one ROYALLY PISSED OFF MOM right now. That fucking bitch has crossed the line. I let it slide the first time she said something to him and I told him he had OUR permission to NOT say the pledge and if she made a snide remark again, she would hear from me. Well, she did it again!:grr:

Not only will she get a call from me, she's getting THIS list which should explain WHY our family feels the way it does. Do you think she'll get the message?:grr:

They IGNORED the warnings of Bin Laden about to strike the U.S. and George proceeded to take his 1 MONTH vacation.

LIES about WMD.

An ILLEGAL invasion of another sovereign nation.

Over 2,200 U.S, soldiers are dead because of LIES.

This administration planned to attack Iraq prior to 911...911 was their excuse.

They outed a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame. (she was a covert CIA agent investigating the weapons of mass destruction...they had to get rid of her because she caught THEM trying to plant WMD).

Election FRAUD.

They have stolen 3 elections..2000, 2002 and 2004, via evoting machines...they hacked the central tabulators and flipped the votes).

They have been spying on U.S. citizens for the last 5 years!

They trashed the Geneva Conventions and TORTURE detainees.

They torture CHILDREN!!! to make their fathers talk.

They torture WOMEN!!! to make their husbands talk.

They are now trying to make the president, "Adolf George Hitler", DICTATOR, with Unitary Executive power. He will make ALL laws!

They will overturn Roe the first chance they get IF the Dems confirm ScAlito.

Darn near Every republican in Congress is involved in the Abramoff scandal.

They see our CONSTITUTION as "a G-d damn piece of paper" (BUSH said that about MY Constitution!) and have turned it upside down. Watch Al Gore's speech from Monday, Martin Luther King Day.

They have silenced whistle-blowers.

They attack anyone who speaks out against the Bush regime.

They have destroyed the middle class in this country.

They have out sourced all our IT and manufacturing jobs.

They have turned Congress into a useless body of our government.

They give to the rich and take from the poor.

They have implemented a DISASTROUS Medicare Bill written by THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES.

They are trying to destroy Social Security.

They have given corporations control of our country (THAT is called FASCISM!)

They passed a DISASTROUS Bankruptcy Bill.

The citizens of NOLA (New Orleans, LA.) are STILL suffering from the LACK of Government help.

They have BOUGHT the media and vice versa, which is now nothing but a WH propaganda outlet. Remember Pravda?

We have higher gasoline prices.

We have higher natural gas prices.

Higher insurance premiums.

Higher grocery prices.

They want to illegally search/bug/wiretap our homes with delayed notification for 1 MONTH.

They want Librarians to give them info on what we READ?

The new HD digital TV will give them the POWER to monitor us.

The Pentagon has "lost" TRILLIONS of $$$$$$ and have NO CLUE where it went.

They gave Congress a BOGUS cost of war estimate, KNOWINGLY so they would pass the Iraq War Resolution.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Give the ACLU a call, too.

A school can't require a kid to say the pledge, or hassle him if he doesn't.

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. I know and so does she!

She will regret this.

[Occulus]

131. Hire a lawyer.

I read about your problem when it happened the first time, as did many people here. Those posts may well be exactly what you/your lawyer would need to slap the teacher and the school back into line.

I would, when you go to talk to her, take with you the stats on jury awards for other such cases here in the US. Fine out what this could mean for her, and show her that information. Scare the crap out of the teacher and the school. Maybe actually file with the intent of dropping it if you get a favorable outcome prior to the courtroom.

If the teacher knows, then it's intentional. That and that alone should be cause for civil action. IANAL.

[sakabatou]

2. Eesh! K & R

[Balbus]

4. Poor kid.

When I was 12 I was worried about next recess kickball game. Not Roe VS Wade or who and why a CIA agent is outed. :shrug:

[PassingFair]

27. When I was twelve...

I marched against the Vietnam War, next to a vet in a wheel chair.
I was VERY concerned about women's rights.
And Farm Workers.

You must have been very incurious. Or your parents were uninvolved.

My girls often know more about current events than their teachers.

Mostly because their teachers watch FAUX news, or no news at all.

[GrumpyGreg]

31. When I was 12 we were in the middle of WWII----we damned well

said the pledge (and it did not have "under God" in it).

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. WWII was different. That cannot ever be compared to the idiot's

illegal invasion.

[oneighty]

72. Yes but

Early on we extended our right arms in the Nazi fashion until one day it was changed to the present 'Right hand over heart' method of devotion to god and country. This little guy (me) at the time did not know the words and did not know what it was all about.I also did not know the Lords prayer which was sometimes recited. But nobody cared. The last time we as a group did the pledge in school was early 1943 2nd grade. After that it was never done in our school in Western NY State.

Eight years active duty in the navy I never once did or saw anyone do the pledge. Very strange. No?

Today the pledge is a political tool. Nothing more.

180

[GrumpyGreg]

122. I'm astonished that you weren't saying the pledge in the

forties.

I was teaching in Boston in the 54-55 school year when the phrase "under God" was added and the pledge was a daily occurrence.

My own kids said it in Massachusetts in the sixties.

[oneighty]

127. I suppose in hindsight

I should be astonished. This is a very conservative area.

But I am not. It is what it was.

180

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. And that's why our country is in the mess it's in.

NO ONE WAS INTERESTED in what was going on in our government. Look at where that got us.:(

My son has been to many political rallies, political conventions (2), has met Howard Dean, Wes Clark, Tari Renner, Barak Obama and Dick Durbin. He has worked at a polling place in Nashville, TN, stood on street corners in Nashville to get the vote out, walked in a parade with Tari Renner (he was running for Congress in our district), attended the Cindy Sheehan vigil and gone to Meetups with me. He's involved and that's exactly how he and I want it. He's also been in Martial Arts, soccer, plays guitar and is a wrestler. He can be a kid AND know what's going on in his world. He can do both. He knows a hell of a lot more about what goes on in this country and the government than most adults do. What's wrong with that??? I think it's AWESOME that he's so smart!

The list is mainly for me to explain why WE, as a family, don't say the pledge..not necessarily JUST my son.

I will probably not send the list as suggested by a few here. ;)

[Balbus]

87. I'll say it again, then.

Poor kid. :( Childhood goes by way too quickly, and I refuse to blame the conditions of a country based on 12 year olds who like to be kids instead of political battlefronts for their parents. But that's just me.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Condescending Nonsense

She has every right to raise her son exactly as she chooses. If she wants him to learn political awareness at a young age, you have no place condemning it. And i question your sincerity if you were still playing kickball at age 12. By the time i was 12, that was a "little kids" game. And, i question anyone who is PROUD of being politically ignorant at age 12. I sure wasn't ignorant of social issues. The civil rights movement, the Vietnam war, 2 Kennedy's and King being killed. I could never have been so self-involved as to not be paying attention. Your obliviousness in childhood must have been bliss.
The Professor

[Balbus]

162. I have no doubt the kid is being raised as SHE chooses...

I'm just wondering what the kid's choice would be... :shrug:

[fishwax]

143. why do you make such assumptions about her son?

disinterested 12-yr-olds are definitely what's wrong with America.

But neither are politically involved 12-yr-olds what's wrong wtih America.

[John Q. Citizen]

5. I would lose the list and just say:

The pledge is obsolete. We are no longer a Republic.

There is not liberty and justice for all.

So why lie about it? I'm teaching my child to be honest and tell the truth.

If you want to teach fairy tales, that's up to you. But don't bother my kid for not buying it.

edited to add... Often short and simple has a lot more impact.

[AspenRose]

28. Short and simple is good

Doesn't sound like she has much of an attention span anyhow.

[txindy]

29. I like that response.

That's succinct and really does carry weight. I think I'd substitute this for the list, as well.

[countmyvote4real]

38. I like that approach JQC.

It allows one to maintain solid conviction without the skidmarks of passion.

[Jersey Devil]

44. Excellent!

And when she does it she should make sure she is nose to nose with the teacher.

[The Doctor.]

46. I was thinking the same...

A long rant invariably has far less impact as the audience
will perceive the author as "hysterical" and
therefore dismiss the substance.

I might write or say something more like the suggestion of
John Q. Citizen, but put a sharp legal edge on it.

Perhaps like;

"I have contacted my lawyer about this issue and have
been informed that it is [improper/illegal/a violation] to
compel any student to recite any material that does not relate
directly to scholastic or educational material necessary for
that child's education, especially when they are compelled to
make a pledge that they do not, for whatever reason, believe
to be appropriate. 
If my child has found that the 'Pledge of Allegiance' is in
direct conflict with what he/she had learned during the last
several years about the US committing many various illegal
acts [include a few if preferable], then he/she cannot be
compelled against his/her will to recite it. To demean or
antagonize a child before his peers is a very callow,
disgraceful, and potentially harmful thing to do to a child. 
I am very outraged at this and am in the process of consulting
both my attorney and the ACLU to see just how we might deal
with this trespass.
You will hear from me again soon."

Maybe more like that?

I just hope that the child does not become a pawn here.

Give em' hell.

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. Great letter, Dr.! Thanks for the suggestion!

:hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

54. Excellent, John Q.

Thanks so much! :thumbsup:

[jackster]

112. Great response -

gets to the heart of the whole notion....

[GrantDem]

138. Or even shorter and more simple --->>

It is a free country and my kid doesn't have to pledge allegiance to anything or anyone.

[InsultComicDog]

167. That's what I would say

:kick:

[liveoaktx]

6. Caselaw Answer

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Thank you! I'll give her a copy of this Caselaw.

:) Thanks so much.

[TahitiNut]

67. "Here...we are dealing with a compulsion of students to declare a belief."

"Here it is the State that employs a flag as a symbol of adherence to government as presently organized. It requires the individual to communicate by word and sign his acceptance of the political ideas it thus bespeaks. Objection to this form of communication when coerced is an old one, well known to the framers of the Bill of Rights."

"Free public education, if faithful to the ideal of secular instruction and political neutrality, will not be partisan or enemy of any class, creed, party, or faction. If it is to impose any ideological discipline, however, each party or denomination must seek to control, or failing that, to weaken the influence of the educational system."

"Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

" Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest."

[bobbieinok]

69. important statement from the link

....

National unity as an end which officials may foster by persuasion and example is not in question. The problem is whether under our Constitution compulsion as here employed is a permissible means for its achievement.

Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good as well as by evil men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon but at other times and places the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity. <319 U.S. 624, 641> As governmental pressure toward unity becomes greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority.

The case is made difficult not b ecause the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism <319 U.S. 624, 642> and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. 19

more....

edited to add THIS DECISION WAS HANDED DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF WWII!!!!!!

U.S. Supreme Court
WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)
319 U.S. 624

WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION et al.
v.
BARNETTE et al.
No. 591.

Argued March 11, 1943.
Decided June 14, 1943.

[July]

77. Note the date.

Not only was this decision made in the middle of World War II but also it was decided on June 14 -- Flag Day.

[ladjf]

7. That certainly justifies your political position. Stay after them.

[Sydnie]

8. Write a letter and ask the Superintendent to place it in her file

In order to document this for any further action and to make sure that there is a paper trail ... an official paper trail from you. It might not seem like much, but it will be worth it's weight in gold if there are any further actions by you or the system. Formal complaints, in writting, do carry a lot of weight. CC it to the School Committee and request to be placed on their agenda to address the issue. The teacher will have to right to have this meeting in executive session (because it is a personnel matter) but that too will become part of the record.

I hope you nail her ass to the wall.

Don't get me wrong, I support my local educators more than most. But, when they cross the line, they need to be warned to cease the behavior. Just cause is hard to prove. You need a paper trail. (Advice from an ex-School Committee member) ;)

[John Q. Citizen]

12. This is very good advice. n/t

[helderheid]

14. excellent!

:thumbsup:

[AwakeAtLast]

15. Good idea, but start with the Principal

Believe me, principals do not like to be out of the loop about one of their teachers.
If that means meet with both of them, that would be fine. I would also have a legal
representative of some kind, because if the teacher is union (I'm betting not, though)
she will most likely be represented.

Just my $.02

BTW, I am a teacher, and I am appalled at this person's behavior. This needs to stop.

To the original poster, please keep us up-to-date!

:hi:

[MurrayDelph]

139. I am an ex-teacher, hated my principal, and I agree

(quit 25+ years ago because of the BS)

Principals like to know what is going on. Especially if you can find the history of
lawsuit settlements against these kind of teachers.

[caligirl]

33. Also Uniform complaint procedure needs to be followed here,

Write a formal coomplaint, the teacher gets a chance to respond etc. But it is official and if she gets additional complaints in a period of time, 18 months I think, she would face further action by the district. It goes in her record and can affect her employment status.

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. OK. Will do. I'm typing up a letter tonight.

Thanks. :hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

39. Great advice, Sydnie!

Thank you! I'll do everything you suggest. They know me well at school. For YEARS my son was harassed for being Jewish and I was at the school constantly to get them to address it. This is the first year he hasn't suffered because of his religion. Now we have a teacher to contend with.:( I WILL nail her ass to the wall. I let it slide once and I'm just not going to let this one go. Thanks again!

[JCMach1]

63. Demand meeting with Supt. and BRING A LAWYER

She will be in so much shit just for that!!!

[Stockholm]

74. I agree

Go over her head on this and bring a laywer.

[helderheid]

9. I never say it - I was raised Quaker. It's against my religion to pledge

allegiance to a country that may go to war. She is infringing on a religious right.

[mzmolly]

132. Excellent point!

I love Quaker philosophy.

[FreedomAngel82]

10. You should go to the local ACLU

[havocmom]

11. Some friendly advice: take someone with you when you talk to her

or anyone from the school. You need a witness.

[Mike Nelson]

16. We had a Jehova's Witness in class and...

the teacher was very respectful of her. She stood... but that was it. I thought that was very nice of her (the student). The kids got used to it and it wasn't a problem for anyone. I'd talk to the principal & deliver a letter (copy it for yourself). Take notes. Ask for something IN WRITING fro the principal. If this was a subsitute teacher... maybe... I'd go on the warpath if it wasn't, though. they can't force anyone to say the pledge. BTW--I love your list.

[Gruenemann]

107. Back when I was a teacher...

Just about every class had a JW in it. They didn't even stand up, and everyone understood; after all, they didn't celebrate birthdays or holidays either.

[txindy]

32. I second that.

Good advice there.

[yellowdogmi]

13. I know you are pissed as I would be too,

but do you really think that showing her list will help your son? Don't get me wrong she deserves to be bitch slapped but I think I would stick to her actual crime. I think you will be dismissed as a ranting nonsensical radical. I agree with everything you point out and it is a great list but I think it is something that would be better sent to the newspaper. I would nail her to the wall for treating your son that way and keep my politics to myself. It seems to me like shooting the messenger. IMO.
Sorry if that ticks you off. Just trying to help.

[MissB]

21. I agree.

I'd keep it simple myself - your son has a right to choose whether or not to say the pledge. She cannot and should not violate that right. I wouldn't even bring politics into it.

[Matariki]

17. the pledge of allegiance ISN'T a pledge to George Bush

Giving her a list of bush's crimes really isn't going to make your point well. You should stick to the legality of the situation - that your son has the right to NOT say the pledge and NOT be hassled about it.

maybe instead, kids should pledge to the constitution, the way the president was *supposed* to.

[Common Sense Party]

70. I love this country, regardless of the idiot in the White House.

The U.S. has survived idiots and weasels before. We are greater than one man or one administration.

I want my children to love, honor, revere and understand the IDEALS and principles upon which our country was founded. I want them to love the country, even if it's temporarily under pathetic (lack of) leadership.

[annabanana]

81. yes.. It's a real shame that the flag has been hijacked

by the worst of us, in service of the most horrible actions we, as a Country, can perpetrate. I would much rather that the pledge be as in my sig line...

[AZBlue]

117. Exactly!

And as the poster before you said, it's not a Pledge of Allegiance to George Bush or even the President in general. It's to the country. I'm sorry to see that so many on this thread have confused the two. I love this country which is precisely why I'm fighting against GWB, and I'll say the Pledge any time!

[TahitiNut]

119. Until "with liberty and justice for all" again becomes the core principle

... guiding our elected government, I will absolutely refuse to either stand or recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

[AZBlue]

121. I pledge allegiance to the country, not any elected official.

And that's why I continue to fight for liberty and justice for all in that country. My allegiance to that country is one of the main reasons I fight to get it back from the corrupt administration.

[fishwax]

144. i agree n/t

[seabeyond]

18. get IF the Dems confirm ScAlito...... i dont like this one

if dems all vote against alito, even if they dont filibuster, then it still is not dems confirming alito

i talked to my sons 2nd grade teacher last week. couple months ago he had to write letter to pres. didnt want to. knew he had to be nice. so wrote please stop the war. and the words to green acres, nothing else he could think of that was nice. i later told teacher, with a huge smile, as you can see we arent bush fans, hope you can still love us. she seriously looked me in the eyes and said, i told him that sometimes when people lose they are angry. i thought he should hear the other side

well now religion has been coming up all this time too. i let it go, but he had one conversation where it was said if a person didnt go to church they would go to hell. he said he didnt believe that. they thought he said he doesnt believe in god. oh..... god forbid, lol lol. so i went in and talked to teacher thurs.

started with, you thought my son should hear the other side. my husband is repug, my father, my two brothers, my inlaws, their old school, this school, all our friends, all their friends are republican,..... they have heard the other side i assure you

and then i chatted a bit about the 8 yr old conversation of religion and we left the christian private school for exactly this reason. i know longer want to deal with my kids christianity in a school. i want 1, 2, 3 and a, b, c's.

she concluded, why are you telling me all this. i told her, because i want an adult that understands where we are coming from so if anything else comes up it will be handled appropriately. i dont blame the kids, not blaming the schools, i want you to be informed, so you can handle gracefully and no one will get hurt feelings.

i say, proudly take in that list and do your job mom. people have to see that we can kindly, moderately, and rationally talk about this. and have our views, respected. she needs to understand just your son being politically motivated is a good thing for his age, what this country needs, what we will need from our kids. not something to beat them down, because we dont agree with them, but proud that they are concerned enough during this self absorbed time, to be thinking about our nation, and consequences. regardless if the teacher politically agrees. he gets a pat on the back, as long as he remains respectful and behaves in class.

[dweller]

37. seconded

good advice.
:thumbsup:

dp

[renate]

64. Oh, my God, you are so much nicer than I would have been

I would never ever get explicitly angry with a teacher to her face (I don't have the nerve to get angry to anyone's face, truth be told), but if she admitted that her spew-makingly sanctimonious "explanation" to him was "sometimes when people lose they are angry" I would go right to the principal, screw giving her a chance to explain herself. NO. SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE ANGRY WHEN THEIR PRESIDENT LIES TO THEM AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT AMERICAN SOLDIERS AND IRAQI CIVILIANS. Needless death and horrific injury just STICKS IN MY CRAW. Call me a liberal, I'm funny that way.

I am so sorry your son is being taught by this Stepford Teacher. She has NO BUSINESS making kids write admiring letters to the president. I would feel exactly the same way (though, I must admit, not as strongly) about making kids write to President Clinton. That would be completely inappropriate. What they write is THEIR CHOICE. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE AMERICA. We are still supposed to at least pay lip service to the concept of freedom of speech.

Oh, my gosh, am I furious. And I am also very, very, very admiring of your patience with this moron.

By the way, your son has a future in REAL diplomacy, the kind I hope our country will eventually return to. Good for him, to be able to respond in such a tactful way at such a young age.

[seabeyond]

82. i have to find out what my rights are first

the first school the boys were in was a christian private. so all things i addressed i had to do it in a patient way. it was our school of choice and when breaking the rules, they had the choice of kicking us out. when i finally pulled them out of that school we went to our public school. but, there is another school near by i wanted. i am just out of the district. brand new, very very demanding. they are academically excellent and high expectation of the kids. my oldest had tutoring after school for math even with a high b, because he received a high c on a practice test. my youngest had straight a's and has tutoring cause of handwriting and fine motor skills

i begged for a year to get in this school. i dont know how easy it is for this school to kick boys out because we are out of district. i gotta walk gently. too good of an environment especially with the jr high in my district. i really dont want the kids in that school.

but ya, that was wanted i wanted to say,.... i am angry because.....it has nothing to do with losing.

also, we get both sides, i am just waiting for all the others to hear our side. they are the ones that only hear one side.

it is funny the way it works, that i have to shut up, lol lol. she is a good teacher. this is a very red area. these people are good. i have learned, talking to them, they are just so conditioned. i hardly even blame them. but i do believe in repsect, then generally, almost always, i get it back and we can come to an agreement.

[proud patriot]

19. Great list

I would request that you ask her to read your
list back to you that way you can be sure she
doesn't throw it the trash.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. I suspect that's exactly where it will end up...the garbage.

I do believe the wench is an IDIOT lover. A teacher who supports the idiot-in-chief BLOWS MY MIND!:crazy:

I may omit the list....it seems most here think it's a bad idea.

[txindy]

35. Not that the list is a bad idea, just not needed at this point.

That's for another discussion about her lack of judgment outside of the classroom. ;) Just keep it short and sweet for now. You've got plenty of facts to explain your reasoning and your son's beliefs. No need to lay it all out there for her to distort. Keep it brief and memorable.

Go for it. :toast:

[DanCa]

20. Hey can I get an impeach bush t shirt

with your list on the back? It'd sell big time.

[ewoden]

22. Tell the nice teacher lady that . . .

Coercing a pledge of loyalty, fealty, or allegiance is perhaps the most fundamental form of tyranny. You need not provide a litany of transgressions of the current administration. Those may be reasons for not pledging allegiance, but reasons are not necessary as he is free to exercise his fundamental right to a free and unencumbered speech. By using politics to rationalize what does not require rationalization, you are making it appear that you are using your child to make a political point.

She just needs to be reminded in writing, as does the administration in your school, that your and her forefathers fought and died to protect your son's right to stand and be silent if that is what his conscience tells him is the right thing to do. Blind, unthinking acts of "patriotism" are nothing more than jingoism.

Hit her and the school administration, with a few not so subtle reminders:

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it." Edward R. Murrow

"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." H.L. Mencken

"Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let me label you as they may." Mark Twain

"When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart." Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." William O. Douglas

[jean]

24. Bravo, well said!

[in_cog_ni_to]

55. LOVE your quotes!

I'll borrow a few. Thank you.:thumbsup:

[renate]

65. I think this is the most succinct and powerful part:

"Coercing a pledge of loyalty, fealty, or allegiance is perhaps the most fundamental form of tyranny."

The "perhaps" may not be necessary, though.... It's not the worst form--I'm not THAT naive--but I can't imagine any form more fundamental.

[pop goes the weasel]

23. You don't have to give reasons

And you shouldn't. All that matters is that she has no right to demand that any child say the Pledge, and she is crossing the line toward assault and harassment when she ridicules any child for his or his family's political or religious stance.

The mandatory Pledge must go. It exists only to single out and ostracize dissenters, whether religious or political.

[caligirl]

34. singling him out, in front of his peirs, treating him is a different

fashion from all others. Discrimination and harassment.

[pop goes the weasel]

113. right

What she did was a violation of the law, using the power inherent in her teaching position to intimidate a child in order to enforce her own political or religious world view. If she can't accept difference in the classroom, she doesn't need to be teaching.

[manic expression]

25. Don't forget your history!

There is far worse to be ashamed of America throughout history.

That flag flew over the massacres of countless natives, as well as racism and slavery. This is ignoring disgusting foreign actions of imperialism and oppression (Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, the rest of Latin America, Iran, Philipines, Hawaii...).

[IndyOp]

80. Keep posting Che' --

Keep helping readers connect ALL the dots - this administration is criminal and so are many right back to the time the country was founded.

:kick:

[manic expression]

134. I will

(on edit) I completely agree with you. Keep posting as well!

[in_cog_ni_to]

165. I'll never forget our history.

I read John Perkin's book, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" and I will forever hang my head in shame at what they have done in my name.:( IT-MAKES-ME-SICK.

[Triana]

36. Call the ACLU and get them to tell her...

...that she is to leave your son alone and if she does not, to expect a lawsuit for harassment.

[northzax]

40. first off, don't lose your cool

don't let the school dismiss you as a loony. And believe me, if you go in raging, they will.

Second off, drop the list. It's irrelevant. Your son's reason for not saying the Pledge could be that he ate Frosted Flakes for breakfast that morning. It doesn't matter. Assuming this is a State school, they cannot compel a pledge of allegiance. And no teacher can single out a student for harrassment for not saying the pledge. that's all you need. Don't make it partisan, simply that you support your son's decision to either say the pledge or not, for his own reasons, and that he is not required to explain himself to the teacher, either in private or in front of the class.

[SW FL Dem]

47. Good advice.

Don't confuse the issues. Your son has a clear right to refuse to say the pledge for any reason. His teacher has no right to humiliate him in front of the class. Stick to that message and you will get your point across

[WinkyDink]

43. This retired teacher says, "You GO, Girl!"

I had to LEAD the class, but I made it clear no-one had to say the Pledge. I tried to keep neutral in tone.

[Hissyspit]

45. She crossed the line.

Point out to her: In a truly FREEDOM-based United States of America, a pledge of allegiance to a flag would be VOLUNTARY.

The pledge is NOT in the Declaration of Independence. The pledge is NOT in the U.S. Constitution.
A FLAG is not a nation. If I were going to pledge allegiance to anything, it would be the U.S. Constitution.

[Straight Shooter]

48. Does this teacher not understand that teachers are on bush's sh*t list?

The bush administration would kick the entire teaching profession to the curb in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.

You can't fight ignorance, but I wish you the best of luck in attempting to do so. Kudos to your brave son. That type of pressure is difficult to deal with.

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. I will NEVER understand any teacher who supports this regime.

It's mind-boggling! What are they thinking?

I guess she just couldn't take it anymore because he NEVER says the pledge. She made a similar snide remark to him at the beginning of the school year and I let it go thinking she would get the message that the child didn't WANT to say it. I guess she didn't. Too bad for her. She had her chance.

[MountainLaurel]

97. They became teachers to indoctrinate

And because it was an "acceptable" career for womenfolk, not like being an engineer or a CEO.

[txindy]

59. My kids have a couple of Kool-Aid drinking teachers, too

They're more than eclipsed by the others, though, like the teacher who has made a point of detailing the effects of depleted uranium on the planet and its inhabitants. It also doesn't help their cause that the wingnutty teachers are the ones all the kids hate, too, for many reasons. Gee. Too bad. :evilgrin:

[Maraya1969]

51. When I was in High School I did not say the Pledge. I stood but kept

quite. The teachers do not have the right to say anything to your son.

Sue the bitch for harassment. She needs to know that just because the pResident thinks he can be a dictator he can't and neither can she. He is going to pay the price and she should also.

God what a bad example this administration has been.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. It is established case law that your son does not have to stand, leave

speak or do anything else during the pledge. The teacher is violating the law by even approaching your son on this matter.

[July]

78. Thank you for pointing that out.

I usually weigh in on that aspect of this controversy, because many people (including teachers and principals) believe that students can be forced to stand. I wish I could remember the name of the Supreme Court case (sixties or seventies, I believe) that decided this very issue, but I do recall that it stated that a student could not be forced to change or assume a position during the pledge (e.g., bow head, stand, put hand over heart, etc.), as you point out.

[Maraya1969]

56. Give her a copy of Thoreau's "On the duty of civil disobedience"

Here is a framed one I found. The SHOULD have a copy at the School.

http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/civil/

[Daftly]

57. I teach 7th grade.

What she did is wrong and you should certainly let her know.

I stand and say the pledge every day at school, while most of my class remains quietly seated. I have no religious conflict in reciting it, and despite this administration, I have strong feelings for my country and do not mind expressing them. This regime does not represent me. Simply because I do not agree with any of our foreign policy moves in the last 6 years does not mean I am less patriotic. If someone does not stand I don't ask why. It is not my business.

[NMMNG]

58. You've already received plenty of legal type advice,

so I don't need to offer any more. I just want to say, kick a$$ and take names!!! :applause:

[Neil Lisst]

60. I would send the letter to the school district, not the teacher cc ACLU

I would NOT send the letter to the teacher or her principal.

You lodge your complaint with the District, which IS concerned about being sued and will understand the potential problem better.

You want the teacher to learn about it when they call her in to ream her out about it.

If you go directly to the teacher again, you give her a chance to tell the story of your alleged unreasonableness to her superiors. My way, she doesn't get that chance.

You tell the district "I told her to knock it off, and she kept it up. Either you step in and make her apologize to my son before the class, or I ask the ACLU to sue you."

Then copy the ACLU.

[littlefrieda]

61. Schools forget that parents are the boss of their kids.

Your son's, bless him, school and teacher need to be reminded of that fact.

[beam me up scottie]

62. Ditto what Buffy said !

Oh, by the way, could you have your son videotape this transaction?

It would be a GREAT inspiration for the rest of us.


I'm reminded of my dear old dad telling off a fundie teacher because she fucking TIED my brother's left hand behind his back in order to force him to write with his right one.

Apparently, she believed that it was a sign of the devil.

My dad is a real sweetheart.

Until you do something like this to one of his kids.


Recommended.

Please let us how it turns out.:D

[Yollam]

66. Your son has the right not to recite the pledge on whatever grounds

...maybe he objects to "under God", or maybe parroting jingoistic oaths without though isn't his thing.

But the fact that POS Bush is in office and has done what he has done should have no bearing on your son's recitation of the pledge, since it is a pledge to the flag and the republic, NOT to its illegitimate criminal ruler.

[renate]

68. the pledge has been a burr under my saddle for a long time

My primary objection to the pledge of allegiance has been the "under God" part--and I'm a huge Christian! But my beliefs are only my beliefs, which is why the idea of jamming religion or nationalism down any kid's throat, whether in a family or in--God and the Constitution forbid--a public school, is absolutely, utterly, and completely offensive to me. (Luckily, elementary-school-age kids have no idea what they're talking about when they recite something like that by rote, so I haven't bothered calling the ACLU to complain about how the kids at our school have to say the pledge.) Fealty to a religion or country is hollow unless it comes from the heart. And kids merely parroting "my country blah blah blah under God" cheapens the allegiance to both, in my view.

I don't fuss about the pledge being said during school because there are only so many hours in the day, but I would ABSOLUTELY FLIP OUT if any teacher DARED to force my kid to say it. And may I just repeat here that I am a passionate Christian and American patriot--those are the PRECISE reasons I am so opposed to everything your son's teacher is doing.

Your son's approach--quietly defending his beliefs and being completely polite in the process--is so admirable. I am very, very, very proud to know him, however indirectly. Please give him lots and lots of hugs not just from you but from us too!

[GrpCaptMandrake]

71. Helluva list!

I hope you'll append your lawyer's phone number to the bottom and wrap the whole thing around a copy of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States."

Screw an apple. Give that awful woman a BOOK.

[fujiyama]

73. Don't worry about the list

This is settled law by the US Supreme Court. The fact of the matter is that your son cannot be coerced, harassed, or mistreated in any way if he refuses to recite the pledge of allegiance. It doesn't matter why.

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_Criticism

And most importantly, here's the case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette

"West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to political institutions or symbols. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

Barnette overruled a 1940 decision on the same issue, Minersville School District v. Gobitis (also involving the children of Jehovah's Witnesses), in which the Court stated that the proper recourse for dissent was to try and change the school policy democratically. In Barnette, however, Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote for the majority that "the very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Jackson added in an oft-quoted sentence, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.""

[cornermouse]

75. Tell her that your son has your permission.

That you are his parents, not her. And that if she doesn't stop the harrassment, there will be legal repercussions.

[Peter Frank]

76. Tell your son to ask the "authorities"...

"How many illegal immigrants enjoy our freedoms here who've never taken the pledge?

Shouldn't they be first on your list?"

[IndyOp]

79. Love it! Suggestion: Drop Adolf -

It will give them less of an excuse to dismiss all of your other excellent points.

You might also remind them that you will be proud to stand and pledge again when the policies change you are once again proud of your country --

:kick:

[BushOut06]

83. Forget about all those things - what about simple freedom?

I thought this had been settled awhile back, that you didn't HAVE to say the pledge if you didn't feel like it.

[LWolf]

84. My suggestion:

leave the politics out of it, and stand on you, and your son's, right to choose whether or not to say the pledge, and your son's right to be in school without having his political views or choices attacked by his teacher.

A political showdown in a public school is rarely productive, in my experience. You can stand up for your rights, though, and that teacher made inappropriate remarks to your son.

I'd start with the building admin (principal) and move on to the superintendent and school board from there if you don't feel the principal handles it appropriately.

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. OK. I LOST "The List" and wrote this letter to the Superintendent, ACLU

and the school board. I left "The List" out of it, took the case law as posted here and wrote this letter. Just the facts, Ma'am..;) No politics. How can I improve it? Should I change anything?

Mr. *******,

My name is ******* and **** is my son. He came home today, January 18, 2006, and told me that when he chose not to stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance, his teacher, Mrs. Jones, chastised him in front of the entire class.

First, let me say, **** has our permission to not say the Pledge of Allegiance. You do know it's illegal to force a child to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance, right? It's also illegal to harass a child who CHOOSES, for whatever reason, to not say the Pledge.

Here's the case law: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

and the relevant section:

"West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to political institutions or symbols. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

Barnette overruled a 1940 decision on the same issue, Minersville School District v. Gobitis (also involving the children of Jehovah's Witnesses), in which the Court stated that the proper recourse for dissent was to try and change the school policy democratically. In Barnette, however, Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote for the majority that "the very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Jackson added in an oft-quoted sentence, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.""


**** does not have to stand to say the Pledge and must be FREE to do so without being harassed by his teacher. At the beginning of the school year he told us she did the same thing and we decided to let it go, thinking she may have had a particularly bad day, but for this to happen twice, tells us she must have a different reason for harassing children who have chosen not to say the pledge.

It's illegal to force a child to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It's illegal to harass a child who has chosen not to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

This has been CC to the ACLU via email and a paper copy via snail mail. We will also be sending a copy to the School Board.

Kind Regards,

*** *** ****** *******

[G_j]

86. right on

you are my hero for the day!
:applause:

[sendero]

90. I thought...

... your son had stood but didn't utter the pledge. The letter makes it sound like he didn't stand up. Not that it matters, other than it being important that the letter is 100% factual.

I'm not sure I'd include the case law. Fact is, it is their job to know this law, and I'm betting that the administrators at the discrict level are quite familiar with it.

Be sure to let us know what happens. Thanks for standing up for what is American.

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. No. He read my email and corrected me...he didn't stand up. I thought he

had. I was wrong. For the case law...I think they need to be reminded of it and need to know "I" know the law exists. That's the only reason for it being included. I'm sure they know the law. :)

[sendero]

104. Best of luck....

... I'm sure you'll prevail here. Do let us know what happens :)

[txindy]

91. I like this approach. One question, though.

Regarding your first paragraph. Did the teacher chastise him in front of any other students? If so, I'd add that. If not, it's good to go, imo.

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. Yes. In front of the entire class. He also told me this morning

that another child didn't stand and she chastised them BOTH in front of the entire class.

[txindy]

94. Then emphasize that. He wasn't just chastised privately, but publicly

That's far worse - and it was bad enough to begin with. Put that in the letter. He was chastised in front of the entire class. What is the teacher teaching her class about personal choices and responsibility? Might makes right?

Let her have it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. OK. I'll add that. Thanks.

:hi:

[laylah]

103. When my youngest

daughter was in 5th grade, she didn't like the way something had turned out at school so I told her to start a petition. I even got the County Clerk's office to agree to put voting booths at the Middle School to let the kids vote. Even though that wouldn't have changed the outcome, at least the kids would THINK they had a part in a decision that affected them. To make a long story short, the teacher humilitated my daughter in front of her peers and other teachers re: the petition. I went to school loaded for bear ("Oh not "that" Mrs. Reed again" was not an unusual refrain.) I made the powers that be apologize to Hana in front of the class and commend her for her petition and determination. I was SO pissed! Oh, and the kids were not allowed to vote because as the moron Principal stated, we make the rules. That is why we are the educators and they are the students! :mad:

Good luck, Incognito...kick some serious butt and then tell all!

Jenn

[Sydnie]

105. Rough draft - how does this sound?

Mr ********,

I would like to bring to your attention an incident that took place, for a second time yesterday, concerning my son and Mrs. Jones. Yesterday my son, *******, excercised his legal right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of the day. ******* returned home and reported the incident and the humiliation and harassment he had to endure at the hand of Mrs. Jones, carried out in front of the entire class. This harassment and humiliation by Mrs. Jones is unacceptable and will not go undocumented this time. I am requesting that Mrs. Jones make a full apology to my son, in front of the class, just as she did when she took it upon herself to ridicule him in front of the class. I request that Mrs. Jones refrain from such action in the future. I also request that Mrs. Jones be informed that it is illegal for her to behave in such a way as supported by the court decision of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. That decision stated, in part:

"West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to political institutions or symbols. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

Barnette overruled a 1940 decision on the same issue, Minersville School District v. Gobitis (also involving the children of Jehovah's Witnesses), in which the Court stated that the proper recourse for dissent was to try and change the school policy democratically. In Barnette, however, Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote for the majority that "the very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Jackson added in an oft-quoted sentence, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.""


**** does not have to stand to say the Pledge and must be FREE to do so without being harassed by his teacher. At the beginning of the school year he told us she did the same thing and we decided to let it go, thinking she may have had a particularly bad day, but for this to happen twice, tells us she must have a different reason for harassing children who have chosen not to say the pledge.

It's illegal to force a child to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It's illegal to harass a child who has chosen not to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Further supporting the legal issue,**** has our permission and our support should he choose not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

I request that a copy of this notice be placed in Mrs. Jones employment file, should any further legal action be necessary. This has been CC to the ACLU via email and a paper copy via snail mail. We will also be sending a copy to the School Board.

-----------------------

You must state what happened and what remedy you are requesting clearly so there is no question what you see as a necessary to mitigate the damage she has caused.


this is just a rough draft. Feel free to use it or not.

[in_cog_ni_to]

109. GREAT letter, Sydnie! Thanks so much.

I am going to copy/paste it and use it. :hug:

[Sparkman]

120. thanks for elevating this to proffesional level with cited court precident

I love the legal protections as proclaimed via SCOTUS decisions.

[SidDithers]

116. Fantatsic letter...

with a much better "tone" than the list.

:toast:

Please post updates, I'm sure others will be just as curious as I to see how this unfolds.

Sid

[MadHound]

88. Do you have any lawyer friends?

If so, get them to write a scathing letter, bringing up past rulings and lawsuits, and making threats about legal action directed not only at the school, but at the teacher personally. Nothing scares the shit out these type of idiots than the threat of a lawsuit they know they can't win.

[nomaco-10]

89. He's only twelve.....

his indoctrination has not been completed into the new amerikan society. I'm afraid a great many people will need re-education after bush* world collapses.

[ProfessorGAC]

96. I'll Come Down And Hold Her

You smack her around. Remember they're ok with torture as long as no permanent organ damage occurs.

The Professor

[in_cog_ni_to]

100. Alright! I'm in the mood to do some slappin'

:grr: They're such hypocrites. ALL of them. Torture = Good, illegal invasions = good, murdering innocent people = good, and not saying pledge = baaaad. :crazy:

[AzDar]

98. Being FORCED to recite the Pledge of Allegiance; the very definition

of the word "irony". ..."With LIBERTY and justice for all"...do they actually listen to what they are reciting?
LIBERTY=FREEDOM....which means making one's own choices in regards to whether or not one feels it necessary to recite an Oath of Allegiance to ANYONE!!!!! Aaaarggghhh!!

By the way, my 9-year-old says "One nation UNDERDOG"...is what he pledges every A.M.

[LibertyLover]

99. Bottom line is

that legally your son does not need to say the pledge. The teacher clearly was overstepping her authority to say what she did to him. As others have said, don't bother with your list, good as it is. However, do write a letter to the principal, cc'd to the Superintendent and the school board. Briefly describe the incident and then bring in the 1943 Supreme Court decision on the pledge. State firmly that you expect the matter will be resolved, you are to be informed how the matter is to be resolved, and that you reserve your right to take further action, including legal action, if the matter is not resolved to your satisfaction. You might want to include that a satisfactory resolution includes, but is not limited to, a public apology by the teacher to your son and her public acknowledgment that your son has the legal right to abstain from reciting the pledge. You might want to conclude with requesting in service training for teachers and students in your district regarding the legal rights of students while they are in school. Good luck.

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. Oh, I love the PUBLIC apology. I'm going to include that.

Thanks! Great idea.

[MurrayDelph]

140. But after the public apology

I would get your son out of that Nazi's class. I had a run-in with a
High School English teacher, but stayed in the class because of scheduling needs.
That bastard almost drove the love of reading out of me.

[in_cog_ni_to]

156. If I see a HINT of her making him suffer for this, she will regret it.

Trust me. She'll rue the day.

[Sydnie]

106. All excellent points - I support that addition for sure! n/t

[kath]

118. Very good idea to request inservice training about the legal rights of

students. Way, way too often schools treat kids like shit, as if they have no rights whatsoever. And they piously proclaim that public schools serve the important function of training students to become good citizens of a democracy. What total bullshit.

[leftchick]

108. I LOVE What Jeff Englehart, Iraq War Vet, Has to Say About The Pledge

This is the ex-GI who spoke up about the use of WP in Fallujah...

<snip>


Englehart stood for a rabbi's invocation about making good choices, doing the right thing.

After niceties, the mayor asked the crowd to remain standing for the Pledge of Allegiance. The fire chief, the police chief, the city clerk placed their right hands over their hearts.

Englehart stood with his hands buried in his pockets.

"I don't pledge allegiance to anyone," he recalled. "That is the most (expletive) offensive part of our culture, indoctrinating these children of this country."


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3390370#

my hero! :loveya:

his site...

http://www.ftssoldier.blogspot.com/



Jeff Englehart works on his computer outside a Colorado Springs coffee shop in November. While he was stationed in Iraq, he and other GIs shared their experiences and thoughts on a Web log. Since leaving the Army as a specialist, the Grand Junction native has devoted himself to speaking out against the war. (Post / Craig F. Walker)

[progressoid]

110. Give 'em hell!!

[mom cat]

111. Tell the teacher that your allegiance is to the constitution not a piece

of cloth!

[realFedUp]

114. I'm with you

finally realized that pledging allegiance to any
country is a ridiculous act.

[Nikki Stone 1]

115. She was totally out of line and should be suspended

IS your school board sympathetic at all? Or do they only respond to legal threats?

[Obamanaut]

123. Tell that 7th grader that he has the respect of this Navy retiree. n/t

[mzmolly]

124. Perhaps he should tell her he's not into "idol worship."

I'm so glad I homeschool. Egadz!

[SmokingJacket]

125. I never said the pledge, even when I LIKED this country!

It feels very unAmerican to recite a loyalty pledge to a flag.

[LunaC]

126. Could you indulge me, please"

Along with your excellent list, could you give her a copy of PNAC 101?(link in sig line.) That ought to open her eyes and curl her toes.

[BikeWriter]

128. K&R

[jeanarrett]

129. On a happier note, my daughter came home yesterday

from school (she's 13 in 8th grade) and said Mom, Mrs. K let me leave class today to use the bathroom and she never lets anyone during class because they, of course, tend to abuse it. When she came back from the bathroom, teacher smiled at her and said "I love the sign in your yard." The sign says, "IMPEACH BUSH." :woohoo:

But your son's teacher really sucks.

[mitchtv]

130. make copies for the class

also gave Congress a bogus cost estimate for the MediCare drug plan. Threatened to fire the actuarty if he told the truth and bried and threatened Pukes to fall in line.

[AbbyR]

133. I'm with you in your anger, but....

before you go to school with a lawyer and a letter, be sure that your child knows what you are doing and approves - unless you are willing to move out of the school district. I put three children through public school, and a couple of times when I wanted to go and read the riot act to the teacher and the administration, my kids asked me very nicely to please not do so, as it would just make life harder for them at school. I thought about it, and finally agreed.

In your case, and others I can think of, I probably would have talked to the child and explained why I was doing what I was doing, but in any case, be sure that he knows up front what you are doing, and always maintain your dignity - don't stoop to the level of the teacher or you will be written off as a crackpot and your child will feel repercussions for the rest of the time he is in school.

Again, I agree with your anger and your wish to do something - just be very sure that you and your child are a team in the effort.

I spent years being infuriated at the schools - but all of my kids graduated at the top of their classes, and that was more important to them than having me make a point. Teacher can be VERY unforgiving, and they can hide their biases very well while making life miserable for a child.

[in_cog_ni_to]

160. I did was ask him if he wanted me to address the issue

and his reply was an enthusiastic "YES!" IF I hear she is making his life hell after this, she'll regret it.:)

[AbbyR]

174. Good, and...

I just remembered my favorite boring old saying that I always tell parents dealing with school messes: "If you're not an advocate for your child, who will be?"

Hang in there..

[greiner3]

135. Just don't hit her. I will!

Making the pledge into a loyalty oath. They suck!

[Ilsa]

136. Give her the list and mention that it isn't any of her fucking business

WHY he doesn't say the pledge, as long as he has your permission not to.

[eleny]

137. I hope she is made to apologize to your son

I've read your thread kind of late. So, this is on my wishlist. I'd like to see her be made to apologize to your son to his face and in writing. Evidently, she's let her emotions rule her head. She needs some vivid reminders to never pull her stunts again.

Good luck! You're on the right side of things to prevail easily.

[GreenPartyVoter]

141. K & R!! *hugs*

[Maine-ah]

142. you should toss in NCLB

I haven't met a teacher yet that's impressed with that one.

[Beth in VT]

145. Please keep us posted on the outcome! n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

155. I will! I sent the emails and letters today.

I know this school hates my guts. "Egads, THAT woman AGAIN?" I'm always on their case about the crap that goes on there. I just can't help myself.;)

[BikeWriter]

146. This vet's behind your Son, too!

[0007]

147. Give em hell cog_ni_to, I'm with ya.

[Heewack]

148. The only issue I have with this...

is that your son is doing this becasue of you, and not because of him. He may believe all of those things but it is because you taught him. I feel as though your son is the pawn in this situation. Your making it a bigger issue regardless of the "right" to do so. It is taking away what he should be focusing on and that is his eduaction. He may be the greatest of students, but now it has become something larger than his education. The family's political agenda has no place in this environment. Of course you could argue that the pledge has no place as well, but is this really the place, for his sake, to make that point? Just take a minute and read the list of what you are going to tell her tomorrow as justification. This has now become about you and your beliefs. Even though I agree with those beliefs for the most part you are turning this into a fight that no 12 year old should be fighting. Just my 2 cents.

[alcibiades_mystery]

151. A) You don't know that this is because of the OP

You have no information there on which to base your dubious claim. You assume that because the mother is political, the son is merely imitating the politics. That is condescending to the son, in the first place, and an opinion formed without any evidence, in the second. The son may have his own reasons for refusing to stand or otherwise acknowledge the pledge, and that action (whatever the reasons) is protected under US law.

B) The only one who is politicizing the classroom is the teacher who chose to approach the son, in violation of established case law on this matter which she, as a professional educator, should know. And yet you are going to chastise the OP for inserting her "family's political agenda" into the classroom? They inserted nothing. It was the teacher who decided to assert her own agenda, despite the fact that doing so is a clear violation of the son's rights as recognized under law. You're blaming the victim here, and letting the perp off scot-free. To return to those Jehovah's Witnesses in the relevant case: were they inserting their political or religious agenda into the classroom when they refused to stand for or recite the Pledge? Hardly - according to the United States Supreme Court. They have a protecte3d right to comport themselves according to their religious principles, and it is those who would force them to do otherwise that are unnecessarily politicizing the space. This has nothing to do about "whether the pledge should be in the classroom." It has everything to do with the freedom to respond to the Pledge in accordance with one's principles - which is a matter of conscience.

[in_cog_ni_to]

152. Wrong. Sorry. I didn't even know he wasn't saying the pledge until

he came home at the beginning of the school year and told me this teacher made a snide remark to him for not saying the pledge. I had NOTHING to do with his decision to do this. He chose this on his own. I didn't even know about it until he got in trouble for it and the TEACHER is the one who made it an issue. Had she kept her mouth shut, followed the law and just let him not say the pledge, we wouldn't even be discussing this. FYI I did NOT send my list to the Superintendent, ACLU and school board. And just to let you know, my son was PSYCHED that I was dealing with this woman. OK? He wants her to stop embarrassing him. I guess he could just be a good little boy and stand up and say the pledge, make the teacher happy, make you happy and all will be well in the world. Never take on a fight that needs to be fought. Never stand up for what's right. Don't fight for principles. That's worked really well so far. I can tell by the wonderful situation our world is now in. We (Liberals/Progressives/Democrats) stayed quiet way too long. Why do you think she feels secure enough to make my son feel bad for not saying the pledge? Was it because she's had other parents confront her on the issue? I don't. She did it because she has always gotten away with it because no one was willing to take on the fight, like you suggest I do. I'll bet the woman NEVER does this to another child after this. THAT makes this a fight worth fighting. IMCPO

Here's the letter I sent today:


Mr *******,

I would like to bring to your attention an incident that took place, for a second time yesterday, concerning my son and Mrs. Jones. Yesterday my son, **** *******, exercised his legal right not to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of the day. **** returned home and reported the incident and the humiliation and harassment he had to endure at the hand of Mrs. Jones, carried out in front of the entire class. This harassment and humiliation by Mrs. Jones is unacceptable and will not go undocumented this time. I am requesting that Mrs. Jones make a full apology to my son, in front of the class, just as she did when she took it upon herself to ridicule him in front of the class. I request that Mrs. Jones refrain from such action in the future. I also request that Mrs. Jones be informed that it is illegal for her to behave in such a way as supported by the court decision of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. That decision stated, in part:

"West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to political institutions or symbols. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone.

Barnette overruled a 1940 decision on the same issue, Minersville School District v. Gobitis (also involving the children of Jehovah's Witnesses), in which the Court stated that the proper recourse for dissent was to try and change the school policy democratically. In Barnette, however, Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote for the majority that "the very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities ... One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote."

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation," Jackson added in an oft-quoted sentence, "it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion.""

_____________________________________________________________
**** does not have to stand to say the Pledge and must be FREE to do so without being harassed by his teacher. At the beginning of the school year he told us she did the same thing and we decided to let it go, thinking she may have had a particularly bad day, but for this to happen twice, tells us she must have a different reason for harassing children who have chosen not to say the pledge.

It's illegal to force a child to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It's illegal to harass a child who has chosen not to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Further supporting the legal issue, Alex has our permission and our support should he choose not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

I request that a copy of this notice be placed in Mrs. Jones employment file, should any further legal action be necessary. This has been CC to the ACLU via email and a paper copy via snail mail. We will also be sending a copy to the School Board.

[txindy]

161. Oo, snap!

Great post! :yourock:

Excellent letter, too. :toast:

:patriot:

[in_cog_ni_to]

163. LOL...txindy...I just love you to death!

:yourock:

Thanks!:hug:

[Sydnie]

169. I am VERY proud of you mama!

You did your son proud today. Don't forget to tell us when you hear back from them ... and you will hear back from them soon enough.

[in_cog_ni_to]

172. I won't forget. I'm sure I'll hear from them by Monday.

I just can't wait to hear what they have to say.:) Thanks again for helping with the letter.:hug:

[buddysmellgood]

149. When I was in high school, in the early 80's, we had "home room" for 15

minutes. We arrived there, had our heads counted, listened the the messages for the day and then said the pledge before heading to our first class. They told us we all had to stand, cover our hearts and recite the pledge. I stood and covered my heart, but refused to say the pledge. It pissed me off to no end that people who controlled my ever move during the day, thought they could force me to pledge. I don't care what the pledge is, if it is forced, it's not a pledge. You can't force a pledge. I took a lot of crap, but I'm very happy with my choice. I will not have my dedication to our country questioned on such a whim.
I'm glad you're proud of you son and wish you well in reading that checked out teacher the riot act.

[upi402]

150. Mine was told creation was valid -in kindergarten

And in a liberal county.
ACLU, join and call. I just rejoined and consider it my patriotic duty to be a a * shitlist for it.
:patriot:
Good for you, good for your son.

[in_cog_ni_to]

153. I AM a card carrying member of the ACLU and their sticker is on my car.

:) Thanks for the kind words.:hug:

[upi402]

173. in_cog_ni_to I think you're great. Fighting the good fight for all of us

:nopity: for that teacher.

[in_cog_ni_to]

176. Thank you. We all need to start standing up to these people.

They have to be stopped in their tracks. They're feeling very bold right now with their idiot in office. He's told them, by actions and with words, it's alright to do this crap and that's why they do it. "If you're not with us, you're against us." "If you don't support the war, you don't support the troops." "If you don't support the war, you're not a patriot." as they all wrapped themselves in the flag. :eyes: This teacher has OBVIOUSLY bought the crap.

Thank you, again, for your kind words.:)

[Idioteque]

154. I was in your son's situation a few months ago...

I posted about it here a few times. My friend and I were given referrals for not standing for the pledge. We were in contact with the ACLU but the school nixed the referrals before the ACLU had time to send a letter. :D

The law is on your son's side, so I wouldn't worry about it. The ACLU deals with this stuff all the time. They have a form letter that they send out for it, in fact. If the school doesn't comply, well then they will sue their pants off for you.

Good luck!

[in_cog_ni_to]

157. I'm proud of you for standing up for your principles!

Have a hug from a DU mom..:hug: I'm glad it worked out well for you. I'm sure the school knows the law and will set this teacher straight. She'll never do this to another child and that's a good thing.:)

[Sydnie]

170. I remember your post about that

Glad to hear they came to their senses too.

[Contrary1]

158. When I worked in an elementary school some years back...

I went to bat for a teacher who refused to recite the Pledge for religious reasons.

Many of the parents, and other teachers were upset. She did call for the kids to stand
and recite it, she just didn't join in. This whole ridiculous situation was heading
for the school board for a decision.

I had a talk with the principal. I told him that this teacher had every right to exercise
her beliefs. That it was still America, (well, it was back then) and that the Pledge of
Allegiance itself stated "with liberty and justice for all".

Anyway, I volunteered to lead the class every morning. The parents seemed ok with it,
and they quit harassing the teacher.

The kids? They couldn't have cared less how it played out.

[lynne]

159. Simple solution would be to send a note -

- advising the teacher and principal that your son has your permission to NOT say the Pledge. The teacher probably thinks your child is being disobedient. I seriously doubt that she would even consider that your 12 year son is making a political statement.

Instead of subjecting the child to further embarrassment, I would send a note to the school advising them of my wishes. Have them put the note in his permanent file and then send one the beginning of each school year to his new teacher to avoid this in the future.

[obxhead]

164. I'm so far down the list that I doubt you'll even read it......

Go with the one nail you TRULY have......

My son has the Democratic RIGHT to NOT say the pledge. PERIOD.

That would be my only and final argument.

It worked for me in my high school years, standing in front of the school Principal. The first amendment covers more than the right to free speech. It also covers the right to not be forced to make a speech.

[in_cog_ni_to]

166. Thank you! I have read EVERY post here.

DU is the worlds best place for intelligent, well thought-out advice. I truly appreciate your input. Thank so much.:)

[obxhead]

168. I had this same exact problem in high school myself.

I went with the above said argument. You have NO constitutional right to force my son to say the pledge.

My advice would be don't go in sounding like that "crazy left-winger". Go in with the simple fact that they have NO RIGHT to force this upon your son. Go in with the FACT that you can and will take this to court if you must..... The school board can only become the fool in a court case and they will drop the issue.

[noiretextatique]

171. tell her being a bully and a bush syncophant

is not a part of her job description, in addition to all the other excellent stuff you've already written.
:thumbsup: your son is lucky to have a parent like you...and what a great kid! i never said the pledge either, but i think there were so many of us who didn't the powers could never hone in on any individual. :7
and where i grew up...most of the teachers probably didn't say it either.

[in_cog_ni_to]

175. Awww. Thank you.

:hug: He IS a great kid. He's so sweet, kind, considerate, compassionate, doesn't have a mean bone in his body and is smart as hell. I'm a proud mom.:loveya: His 12 year old mouth gets him in trouble sometimes, but that's nothing being grounded can't cure. ;)