The Israeli Prime Minister's Speech

[PCIntern]

I believe that many should read and understand this speech in the context of Israel and the Jews of the world:

Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world. I, the Prime Minister of
Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible
pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and
recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that
can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you
straight in the eye and telling you that the State of Israel will continue
its military campaign in Lebanon.

The Israel Defense Forces will continue to attack targets from which
missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and
kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF
to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from
which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel.

We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If
they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will
continue to bomb Kfar Kana. Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow.
Here, there and everywhere. The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of
our children into hell.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time you understood: the Jewish state will no
longer be trampled upon. We will no longer allow anyone to exploit
population centers in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to
hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and
children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us,
you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

A voice for six million citizens

Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens
who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down
to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible
for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who
set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish race off the face of
the earth, as Adolph Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the
map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims.

And you - just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are
ignoring them again now. And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the
world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that
never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation
that never arrives. Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are
now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction - those
people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will
no longer be able to evade their responsibility.

Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will
be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and
publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us,
to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not.

Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the
office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my
plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea
and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most
of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new
leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a
permanent settlement between us.

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal
from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the
Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The
Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli
presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border,
leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its
democracy and its economy.

What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win
even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a
handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak's peace initiative at Camp David
let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces
over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don't remember you being
so enraged then. Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups
of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the
Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while
celebrating the Passover seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya? What can you
do - that's the way we are. We don't wave body parts at the camera. We
grieve quietly.

We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy's
children - we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous
behavior of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they
will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous
taste of this terror. And you will taste more In a loud and clear voice.
And Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza. What did it get us? A barrage of
Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of
soldiers. Then too, I don't recall you reacting with such alarm. And for
six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and
crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire
country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel
hostage on his way to Jerusalem - and from there to Paris and London.

An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our
border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes,
awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear
power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake - we won't go
down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go
down along with us.

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I
don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens
killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and
all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent. And I am hard
pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire
villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in
Chechnya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed
the civilian population - then you also kept silent. What is it about us,
the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of
justice in you? What do we have that all the others don't?

In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eye, I stand before you
openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine.
This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to lead
normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your
battle. I pray and I believe that now you will understand that. Because if
you don't, you may regret when it's too late.it later,

[David Dunham]

1. Answer: Israel as our ally should behave better than Russians or Islamists

[Kagemusha]

2. So Americans kill dirty Arabs all the time, why can't we.

Great humanitarian here.

And no, I don't think that's excessive "snark" in the new parlance. Israel's being pinpricked, not trampled on, but apparently is too full of itself to tell the difference.

And Chechnya? No reaction to that? Oh, for... ...I'll stop now.

[PCIntern]

4. ...and Pearl harbor was a pinprick...

when do you draw a line? when do you say that enough is enough? Once they started kidnapping soldiers, proportional retribution was just out of the question, they'd just keep kidnapping and beheading more. Does the name Daniel Pearl mean anything? Did the fact that was Jewsih mitigate the war crime of killing him in such a manner? Or would you say that beheading is a merciful way to die, so actually, those guys were doing him a big favor? This crap about big, bad Israel versus the poor Arab community...hogwash, to be polite. After 241 Marines were killed as 'peacekeepers' the same duty you're volunteering others for, Saint Ronnie pulled all our forces out of the area because it was too politically costly. Imagine living with that threat and much much worse for 58 years. Because as far many are concerned, what occupied territories means is Greater, pre-1967 Israel.

It is one of my fondest wishes that one day, a Native American walks up to the home of all these 'right of return' folk here, and demands his or her homestead back in Illinois, or Pennsylvania, or somewhere in the Great Plains states, or some Hispanic fellow shows up in New Mexico on a ranch and produces evidence that htis was once his family's land, just to see how all you hotshots would respond. My guess is a 911 call and lots of laughter and legal representaion. After all, you are the righteous owners, right?

[Kagemusha]

7. Pardon me but, in what universe was Pearl Harbor a pinprick?

It nearly decapitated the entire Pacific fleet of the US at the time.

As for your suggesting that somehow I think beheading is merciful and I don't give a damn because he was Jewish, that is a horrible, vicious smear. As for you suggesting I'm volunteering Israelis to do the job that US Marines rightfully ought to be doing - digging Hezbollah out of its holes - I'm sorry? Excuse me?

You haven't heard of the principle of proportionality, have you?

[PCIntern]

9. OK

so did we go and bomb a Japanese Naval Base and then say, "What's next, assholes", or did we lay waste to the whole empire?

You tell me...

[Kagemusha]

12. A) The US did both. B) The US was never considered "trampled".

Stung. Roused. Angered. Hurt. But never, ever, ever, ever was it characterized as trampled.

And Hezbollah hasn't done anything to Israel anywhere remotely near the damage of Pearl Harbour.

[PCIntern]

17. ...and the Israelis should wait until they do

I suppose.

these people are abject killers...you just don't understand that they will murder wantonly. There is not proportionality - whatever they have at their means they will use and have used. They are ruthless and determined and they say so. Why won't you believe them? They are not members of the Society of Friends.

They murdered 241 Marines in their barracks while they were asleep. That OK with you?

[Kagemusha]

18. Who the hell is "they"? Hezbollah? All Arabs? All Moslems?

Where does the Hezbollah Empire you wish to see taken down like the Japanese Empire, end? What are its boundaries? What is its citizenry?

[Name removed]

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[Kagemusha]

27. Ok, I admit it, you've stumped me...

...I have no clue what the Symbionese Liberation Army is. Not one tiny clue whatsoever. And I thought I've heard of quite a lot of groups over the years.

But seriously here, you're jumping radically to conclusions that aren't justified. I don't back terror groups at all. Not whatsoever. However, Hezbollah, in and of itself, is small pickings. It doesn't have the hard targets to justify strategic air strikes against it like in Kosovo. Therefore, Israel's expanded the definition of what a Hezbollah target is.

Apartment complex - Hezbollah.
Milk factory - Hezbollah.
Port - Hezbollah.
Port city - Hezbollah.
Key bridges in Christian-held territory - Hezbollah.
Border crossings with Syria - Hezbollah.
Ambulances - Hezbollah.
UN observation posts - Hezbollah.

...etc.

That's why I ask, just where is this supposed to end, and what else should I be classifying as part of Hezbollah? Because at this rate, the entire Arab world's becoming one big Hezbollah cheering section. So where should Israel stop retaliating for Hezbollah trampling on it.. or should I say, in a more honest way, trampling on its pride as a major military power?

[PCIntern]

35. OK...History Lesson..this one's on me...

The SLA was a black power revolutionary group within the US which kidnapped Patty Hearst a long time ago, maybe before you were born. That's OK, there was aworld back then and horrible things happened in those days too.

anyway, that was not their big crime. what they did one day, was break into a courtroom and kidnapped a judge, and what they did to this poor guy, was to tape, adhesive tape no less, a shotgun to his neck and face and led him into a van. Needless, to say, things did not work out for this poor asshole and they blew his fucking head off right in the van. Most, if not all were killed on the spot.

Now the Federales in our blessed country went and did what they had to do. They eradicated the country of this group. Compeletely. That's why, my good, erudite, brilliant kemo sabe, you've never heard of them. They're gone. Becuase they crossed a line which can never be crossed.

they were treated as though they were the Anopheles mosquito...you know the one which carries malaria.

Citvilized countries will not tolderate this stuff. Live with it. No anarchists or bomb throwers allowed. That' how we've managed to at least survive this long here.

[breakaleg]

38. sorry to interject, but

the SLA had like 13 members. They were a lot easier to stamp out that Hezbollah. And I don't think the US had to conquer another country and kill it's civilians in order to take them out.

[PCIntern]

42. You're wrong...

those of us in the know at the time knew of all the local groups of SLA taken out simultaneously. They just wanted you to think that SLA was small. It was growing and it predated other domestic terror groups which were also 'discouraged' from formation.

What a time that was...so many black ops, so little press...

[Name removed]

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[PCIntern]

66. Evidence...

EVer hear of the "Black Cultural Association"? No? Well, there wer lots of those guys and they were all SLA progenitors. Lots of them went out and were part of the movement. I'm sure that when DeFrreeze escaped from jail...you remember that, right...that he had no help and nowhere to go and no one to talk to.

[Zhade]

68. Um, your assertion isn't evidence. Try links, for a start.

Your assumptions don't constitute evidence. Try again.

[PCIntern]

72. Guess what....

You lose. I'm not engaging you anymore and guess what else...after 3 years or more, I've lost count I've had so much fun here at DU, you are the first poster I've ever placed onignore. Now don't get all hot and bothered about it and claim victory. You're just small minded and impossible and viciously mean and quite honestly, boring. You haven't won anything other than my disdain and scorn. Bye.

[breakaleg]

76. .

[Name removed]

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[Zhade]

59. Yeah, so much for a history lesson from someone who doesn't know it.

NT!

[PCIntern]

63. At least you didn't curse..

but you can't refute me.

[Zhade]

64. I didn't have to, another poster already did.

Of course, if you can prove your assertion, go for it.

But you can't, because you're wrong. If you're not, prove it.

But you can't, that's right! Because there's nothing to back up your statement.

[Kagemusha]

39. So eradicate the group. Itself.

Why go after non-Hezbollah Lebanese like this? It's not like they're controlling Hezbollah like Serbia was held responsible for Serb militants in Kosovo. So I'm asking in all seriousness, who the hell should be bombed here? Because Lebanon's not cutting it.

Syria? Iran? Does it even stop there?

[PCIntern]

44. Well, looks liek we're going to have to wait and see...

my guess without any sarcasm at all whatsoever, is that the battle plan will continue to evolve and the broadening of the 'front' in this conflict will stretch HEzbollah out. Then again, you can never tell what's going to happen tomorrow. Condi's Invsalign braces...I mean who'd a thunk that she could close that space that fast? (Invisalign only tips teeth, it doesn't move them bodily but hers is looing pretty good for a relatively short time of treatment.) So if they can close her diastema, then they can solve this problem...

BTW, there's nothing I'd rather see than peace. I wept at Camp David's success, for even though I knew that it was a bribe of the Egyptians in perpetuity, it would work because all those billions can't be ignored.

I can't take my kids to Israel because I won't put them in jeopardy - I'd liove to show them the country which bloomed like a flower even during 58 years of continuous war. Wouldn't it be nice...

[Kagemusha]

52. Time will educate you about guerilla warfare.

Stretching the front works against armies that are trying to defend territory. Hezbollah isn't. Hezbollah is simply trying to make the IDF have to kill them in order to better allow Hezbollah to kill IDF soldiers. Once that can no longer be done and they've sold their lives as expensively as possible, it's a shift to front-less guerilla warfare.

The unresolved issue is what is going to happen to the civilian population of S. Lebanon itself. Hezbollah might be able to survive on its holes and its storage for a while here but, ethnically cleansing the entire security zone of S. Lebanese Shiites MIGHT make things a lot harder for the group... but maintaining and enforcing that, well, good luck. We'll see. Right now Israel is doing a much better job hurting the civilian population of the entire country than Hezbollah itself.

[Name removed]

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[Kagemusha]

58. All 5 were against traditional armies. Is that hard to grasp?

Guess maybe it is.

Thank you for answering my earlier question. Apparently "the Arabs" is the Hezbollah Empire you want to see overthrown. Ok, fair enough....

[PCIntern]

62. Actually,

the Israelis have been threatend by some Benedictine monks lately, and i forgot. I'm sorry and apologize profusely.

[Name removed]

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[Zhade]

55. So you embrace the b*s* doctrine of preventative strikes?

Tell me, which country should attack the United States to avoid the fate of Iraq? Iran, North Korea, Syria?

Or are you just using a hypocritical double-standard in your argument?

"these people are abject killers...you just don't understand that they will murder wantonly. There is not proportionality - whatever they have at their means they will use and have used. They are ruthless and determined and they say so. Why won't you believe them? They are not members of the Society of Friends."

Yes, the IDF is as you describe. Why do you...OH, this:

"They murdered 241 Marines in their barracks while they were asleep."

Learn the history, for fuck's sake. We weren't peace-keeping there, we were interfering with a civil war.

"That OK with you?"

Murder is obviously NOT okay with ANY DUer, and it's fucking reprehensible of you to even suggest otherwise. How DARE you!

[PCIntern]

65. Civilized post...

much better...,you're coming along.

See, the peacekeepers' proposed are usually predisposed to the Arab side of this conflict. That's why the Chinese were in the UN observation post. You know, the one that was bombed.

Speaking of which...you know the USS Liberty in 1967, the one the Israelis hit? the reason the US accepted the apology of ISrael real fast and not another word was ever said was because it turned out the the Liberty was radioing the positions of the IDF...to the Arabs. Pretty neat, huh? So it foes.

See it's always much more complicated...

[Zhade]

67. " usually predisposed to the Arab side of this conflict."

Another unsubstantiated claim. Prove it, or admit you're making it up.

"and not another word was ever said"

See? You DON'T know history:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/moorer-liberty.htm

"After State Department officials and historians assembled in Washington, D.C., last week to discuss the 1967 war in the Middle East, I am compelled to speak out about one of U.S. history's most shocking cover-ups.

On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked our proud naval ship -- the USS Liberty -- killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172. Those men were then betrayed and left to die by our own government.

U.S. military rescue aircraft were recalled, not once, but twice, through direct intervention by the Johnson administration. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's cancellation of the Navy's attempt to rescue the Liberty, which I personally confirmed from the commanders of the aircraft carriers America and Saratoga, was the most disgraceful act I witnessed in my entire military career.

To add insult to injury, Congress, to this day, has failed to hold formal hearings on Israel's attack on this American ship. No official investigation of Israel's attack has ever permitted the testimony of the surviving crew members."

So, you were wrong, again.

[PCIntern]

69. The official explanation...

Warren commission, 9/11 commission, I could go on and on but why bother...

You hat all these commissions when they are convened under other circumstances...'whitewash', etc. Now, you're quoting one and shutting the book

Case Closed by Gerald Posner.

OK, if he says so...

[Zhade]

71. Okay, I must confess...

...to not knowing what in the world this reply has to do with my post.

[breakaleg]

75. it's a deflection tactic because he can't win the argument on it's face.

[dionysus]

107. go join the IDF already man, if you are that passionate about it

[Zhade]

51. And where do THEY draw the line when the IDF shells a beach...

...kills families, kidnaps people itself, ad naseum?

Your not-so-subtle accusation of anti-Semitism is disgusting, and out of line.

[Name removed]

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[Zhade]

74. Language? There's not even a swear in that post.

Are you just replying randomly...? :wtf:

(Besides which, I'll use whatever language I desire to, thank you very fucking much, and I don't need armchair pop psychology from an untrained amateur. :))

"Your turn..."

Exactly. You can't just pretend Israel has been innocent in all this, though you sure do try.

As far as anti-Semitism, asking a poster if someone's death means less to them because the victim is Jewish is accusing someone of anti-Semitic leanings, and it's bullshit.

[everythingsxen]

78. So you approve of Hezbollah's cowardly tactics and attacks?

Nasrallah is quite a humanitarian.

Israel is not Russia. Lebanon is not Chechnya.

Israel is not the U.S. Lebanon is not Iraq.

Stop trying to conflate all wars into the same war.

You tell me if living every day under threat of hundreds of rockets swarming down onto your city is the same as a pinprick.

[breakaleg]

3. the guy's quoting Hitler? This is why it's so hard to criticize Israel

Whenever they do anything wrong, this is the defence. Arabs had nothing to do with Nazi Germany, yet that's the excuse for today's action.

He's just trying to touch the heartstrings and stir up trouble, instead of respond to Israel's atrocities.

He's pathetic.

[Name removed]

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[breakaleg]

14. Of course the Holocaust was atrocious. No one is disputing that.

But, that can't be the excuse for Israel to commit the atrocities it does today - against Palestinians and now Lebanon.

I would think that if anyone knew what it would feel like to be persecuted, it would be the descendants of the Holocaust.

I'm afraid that is not a just reason for Israel to do what it does today.

My point was, rather than talk about the occupation of Palestinian land as the precursor of this current conflict, he chose to dig into the past and pull at the heartstrings, knowing that no public figure would ever say anything negative in response. After all, how can you criticize someone who speaks of the atrocities of the Holocaust?

I fully expect to get flamed for this. But the fact is, Arabs weren't responsible for that.

[PCIntern]

53. Acutally, Arabs were quite conspicuous

in Hitler's reign in Africa...and Rommel utilized them well. But hey, what's a few alliances between friends? I mean, what the hell, right?

The point is...when someone tried to eradicate your gene pool, when someone claims they're gonna try again...you get kinda pissed off. BTW, if you want to make a point with a Jew, don't say, "We all know the Holocaust was horrible, BUT..." Bad move.

You negate yourself as soon as you say BUT. See, it was beyond horrible. there are no words which describe it. I for one, don't compare anyone to Hitler becuase...well, he and his buddies were really 'special people'. I like to think that they are the nadir of human kind...the effin Nazis I mean.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

81. Moslems fought both for and against Hitler in World War II

The Handzar Division was comprised of Bosnian Muslims who fought for Hitler primarily against the Serbs. There are photos I've seen on the Internet of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem reviewing these Moslem soldiers.



However, the British had several units from the Indian subcontinent containing many Moslems. They came up through the Mediterranean into southern France to train during the 9 months between the invasion of Poland by Hitler and the campaign for France. Many of them died when Hitler rolled over the British Expeditionary Force.

And then there was the French Army. The French raised forces in North Africa after the fall of France containing primarily Europeans (Christians and Jews) who were born in Algeria and Morocco, but there were also several Moslem units such as the Moroccan "Goumiers" and Tabors. The Goumiers played a significant role in the other D-Day, which was the invasion of France from the south and they fought a quite heated battle door-to-door to take the principal port city of Marseille from the Germans.

[Lars39]

19. How about this group? Do they know nothing, too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2433221

[Spazito]

50. What I think is atrocious are those who are using the Holocaust

as a reason to excuse the atrocities being committed by Israel. To do that brings shame upon those who died in the ovens, imo. Using the Holocaust as a reason for Israel to commit the horrors being perpetrated upon the Lebanese people is beyond unacceptable, imo.

[QuestionAll...]

6. Olmert is a freeper. nt

[Name removed]

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[QuestionAll...]

13. do freepers blast the 'legitimate' government of Bush?...

back at you.

[PCIntern]

15. No,

Freepers blasted the legitimate governemnt of GORE and the US CONSTITUTION and the SEPARATION OF POWERS, which had to do with the replacement of the 'legitimate government' with the one we have now. Or have you forgotten which site you're posting on?

[QuestionAll...]

24. what site are you suggesting I have mis posted on?

what are you accusing me of?

what I see, and most here do, is the Bush doctrine of war to feed the arms machine and cause havoc to feed it more. You don't truly believe that democracy or freedom has anything to do with it?

And what I see and some here also do, is the same Israeli doctrine.

They use the same words, listen carefully. They use the same missiles, listen carefully.

[PCIntern]

31. You listen carefully,

Iraq was not lobbing missles into US territory. HEzbolah was form Lebanon. If one hit your house, you'd be mad as hell.

This is survival...don't gerneralize. There were a lot of assholes in this world before Bush came to 'power'...,many are still working hard at it.

[QuestionAll...]

34. Bush is the biggest assholio in the world right now.

and right now he is supporting Freeper Olmert.

can it get any clearer?

[PCIntern]

40. At least on this one,

you're half right.

Bush is.

But, what you may or may not understand is that Jews understand well that the support hwich they receive from the Far Right is thin and dangerous. You know, for years the old saying was that Jews in America live like WASP's but vote like Puerto Ricans. It's true. what other culture has this kind of money but votes not only Dem but very very often, liberal Dem?

But...understand this as well...from an early age, we on the left who are Jews are well aware of the anti-Zionist Left wing. We encounter it often and deal with it best we can. We are anything but stupid and you would do well to give credit where credit is due. I hate generalizations, but Jews across the board are pretty smart and in this case, have a pretty good military where they need it. As far as Olmert being a FReeper, well...you'll just have to take my word FWIW that he's not, because I guarantee you he has a 3 digit IQ.

[QuestionAll...]

46. Jews have about much to do with the IDF as

"Americans" or is it Christians?, ( fuzzy stuff there, intended I'm sure) with bush.

most americans do not support bush.
Olmert and his preditory predicessors are freepering y'all.

[PCIntern]

70. You're entitled to your opinion

If you lived under Hez rule, you wouldn't be.

[QuestionAll...]

79. I see CNN, and my opinion is rarely heard there.

only by special guest with a 3 minute window, overtalked by talking points of the Repugs or, lately, Israeli freeper guests.
why do you think I have to go to Hezbollah territory to be propgagandized more than that?

[Name removed]

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[JackNewtown]

10. "our recognized, legitimate borders"

What are Israel's self-declared borders? Let's ignore the international community's view for the moment. What are Israel's borders according to Jerusalem?

[PCIntern]

11. According to Hezbollah,

they are about 45 inch perimeter somewhere out in the milddle of the PAcific Ocean.

[breakaleg]

16. what kind of a response is that? He asked a legitimate question

and you responded with garbage. Why? Probably because there IS no dispute on these borders. Or because Israel doesn't want to admit that the borders include ALL of the West Bank?

[PCIntern]

20. As Bob Dole said, "Depends"...

right now, the borders are those which they say they possess because they won them militarily. like it or not that's how the world works. thye have the military and they say so. Look, they gave up the Sinai, full of oil, for a treaty with the Egyptians. Cold peace but peace nonetheless. They made a deal with Jordan, who was happy to accept it, and go about their business. King Hussein, of course, had said that if the Israelis had ceded all their land except for 9 square inches, then that 9 square inches would be that for which the Islamic fundamentalists would fight and die or by the thousands and would not rest until that had been conquered. He sure knew what the hell was going on and he made the deal.

His question is irrelevant at this time, because there ain't anybody who's gonna do anything about it without coming to the table within reason and making a real deal. Israel pulled out of Gaza and got shelled for it.

And one more thing, your characterization of my post as 'garbage' has elevated this to a new level of hostility - I'm going to proportionately respond and say that your post is the most ridiculous thing you've ever written, except for everything else you've ever written.

[breakaleg]

22. The UN disagrees. There are set borders that the international

community recognizes. It's lucky for Israel that they are supported by US and are able to get away with whatever they want.


And said your post was garbage because it was a quip, not a response to the question asked.

[PCIntern]

25. Oh boy...the UN...

Let's see, since we're counting, what is the ratio of elected democratic governments to monarchies/dictatorships in your UN?

I guess Israel is the most despicable country in the world because there are more UN sanctions against them and resolutions involving them than any other state.

And, since we're talking UN, what bout the Resolution requiring Hezbollah to disarm? Ooops, an inconvenient truth, I suppose.

[breakaleg]

33. Yes, Hezbollah should abide by UN resolutions as well.

If they do, will Israel give back Palestine and revert to the 1967 borders?

[JackNewtown]

29. "I'm going to proportionately respond"

What a concept. ;)

You can't compare a subjugated, defenseless population with the Arab world's biggest military power which happens to border Israel, as well as Jordan, a state next to Israel. Egypt--as Israel's only real threat to its existence--could negotiate as an equal with Israel. Jordan, while operating from relative weakness, still had some cards to play and didn't demand much anyway. The Palestinians have zero leverage vis-a-vis Israel, especially given the backing of the world's lone superpower behind Israel's policies. The Palestinians will get whatever crumbs Olmert/Bush give them.

"the borders are those which they say they possess"

Which would be what borders?

[Kagemusha]

43. Gotta say, that's about the most Prussian way you could put it.

Israel's legitimate, recognized borders are the extent of the territory it has conquered militarily. When Israel conquers more territory, the extent of THAT will be its new, legitimate, recognized borders.

[JackNewtown]

30. You know the answer

We are told Israel has no designs on Palestine by fellow progressives who back the taking of others' land against their will but Israel doesn't even declare its borders. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that suggests they want at least part of the West Bank...

[PCIntern]

32. So what...

so what's it to you? do you really care that much about these Palestinians, are you up nights composing letters to Senators, collecting money to send them for relief of their miseries? Come on, buddy. The fact of the matter is that there was a two state solution, it was called Trans-Jordan. The fact of the matter also is that they had a chance to make a deal and Arafat the Thief, Liar, and Murderer, walked away from the talble because he knew that those who truly controlled his fate would have had him killed immediately. Just think, all those billions of dollars in Swiss bank accounts and the Gaza Strip in abject poverty. Oh GOD WHERE'S THE JUSTICE for those poor folks?

[Zhade]

90. Have you even SEEN the maps of the proposed plan?

You know, the maps that detail how the Israeli government ran the lines to enclose significant water sources belonging to the Palestinians?

I mean, you don't even understand the history, and you're presuming to lecture those who do on this? Get thee to a library, pal.

[bunyip]

93. What billions?

As if Palestine ever had billions to steal. Yes, Arafat was a crook and a small-time embezzler, I guess that's why the Israelis left him alive after they killed so many other Palestinian leaders.

Happily, the Palestinian voters dealt with corruption in the best democratic tradition. Hamas is honest and effective, so they now get the votes.

And you can read about the interntional community's two state solution here - http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1947UN181.html

Israel should negotiate a just settlement based its lawful 1948 borders with whatever additions the Palestinians want to give them.

[whistle]

23. 'I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine.'

...International law regarding crimes against humanity will be the judge of Prime Minister Olmert's actions.

[PCIntern]

28. Well, he's gonna have to get into a line

after all the other excitements going on in the world. More people dying in Iraq daily than Lebanon, Darfur, all those former Soviet Republics, Steroids in MLB - all war crimes by DU standards....LOL.

[Minstrel Boy]

41. what company your hero keeps n/t

[PCIntern]

45. ah it's you Minstrel Boy...

I remember you well.

But we won't discuss that chapter...

I wasn't impugning him in the least, I'm jsut saying that there's a whole lot going on in this sorry world. It's real busy over there so with all these real murderers up for booking, what are they going to do with an alleged jaywalker like Olmert?

[bunyip]

106. Jaywalking?

Is that the new Heritage Foundation word for it?



I wonder when Olmert plans on visiting the outside world? Someone might do some Jaywalking on him...

[Zhade]

110. Check "Neo Con Blogger" for confirmation.

That's one of the blogs that ran this "speech".

[Zhade]

92. No, see, these ARE war crimes, and not just by DU's standards.

Well, steroids is more a crime against baseball, but...

[jpkenny]

26. "Israel will no longer be trampled on." ?????

This one statement loses all credibility for whatever is said. It's the speech of a bullshit to excuse years of brutality toward Palestinians. And comparing what did or is happening in Iraq to what Israel is doing now is like comparing the devil to satan. Both represent one in the same evil.
I just don't accept it.

[PCIntern]

36. Here's a thought, yo won't hear this often around here

because we're just so democratic in our acceptance of each others' right to have legitimate opinions, whether founded in fact or BS, it really doesn't seem to matter.

Israel doesn't really give a flying ptoot what you or I accept or don't accept. When they bombed the Irqi reactor, eveyone on the left went bullshit about sovereign country and all that stuff. Meanwhile, anyone who knew anything about anything winked and went to sleep a little easier that night. Turns out that it was a pretty good idea and that they also had a bit of a wink from some of the neighboring Arab countries. Hard to believe right - but sometimes you gotta play along for self-preservation.

They're not waiting for your approval...and who knows, maybe there's something more complex than the obvious going on here. You know, like in all the fiction everyone loves to read. Maybe there's a dire issue that netiher you nor I know about.

[Minstrel Boy]

37. Ze'ev Sternhell in Haaretz:

"Moreover, the ordinary citizen is asking himself another question: If several thousand guerrilla fighters do constitute an existential danger to a country with a strike force and weaponry that are unparalleled in this part of the world, how is it that during the past five or six years we heard nothing to that effect from government leaders?"

The Most Unsuccessful War

[PCIntern]

48. Politics is politics...

the fact of the matter is (don't you love that phrase...guys like Freddy Barnes use it all the time and the dopey Dems never jump in, so I'll try it here as well...ooops, did I just give something away????) that everyone knew that Hez was living in Lebanon. Israelis are pretty frigging smart you know.

That quote from Haaretz is specious...just because it comes from an Israeli columnist...well, hoe'd you like it if I quoted Krauthammer all the time? It'd really get on your nerves.

[Zhade]

47. He's a fucking madman, a bloodthirsty monster.

So, because Israeli kids are in danger (I obviously condemn Hezbollah's attacks on civilians), fuck the Lebanese kids who have no power to change their situation?

I had no desire to read the rest of this insanity. This man belongs in the Hague.

[jonnyblitz]

49. Bringing up the holocaust in this context is TACKY as shit,

considering THEY are the ones instigating the current slaughter in Lebanon. Israeli spokespeople always talk like they are the ones under attack when they are the aggressors.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PCIntern]

73. Well, it's been fun..

But I have work tomorrow so nighty night. Let's see what we awaken to tomorrow.

[bunyip]

80. Olmert can kiss my ass.

Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will
be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and
publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us,
to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not.

Does that mean every place from which an Israeli bomber takes off or weapon is manufactured becomes a legitimate target for the world to attack? Hypocrite.

For the right to lead normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders.

When you start, let us know. Btw, UN Resolution 181 set the recognized legitimate borders of Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. This crap is NOT a speech from the Israeli PM...

No wonder you didn't provide a link to it. This crap has been doing the rounds of blogs and is what some idiot proposed the Israeli PM should say...

http://ranmr.blogspot.com/

[breakaleg]

83. Thank-you for that. I wonder if the OP will acknowledge his source.

All this debate over a speech that never happened..

[Kagemusha]

84. Now that you mention it, I remember that reporter's proposal.

The reason, however, that I didn't recognize this as a proposal, is because what Olmert has been actually saying has been every bit as sanctimonious and as bad as this, save perhaps direct references to Chechnya etc. (which would be very insulting to many friends of Israel who damn well criticized Chechnya)

[PCIntern]

87. Gee...

I guess you win the Brass Figligee With Bronze Oak-Leaf Palm.
Well, it certainly brought out the BEST in everyone didn't it?
It sounded real to me too...except that it sure sounds good...

Oh well...Never Mind.

[Violet_Crumble]

91. So why did you pretend it was a speech by Olmert?

There's enough bs floating around right now without this sort of thing being added to it...

[PCIntern]

94. Well,

if you read my post , you would understand that I didn't know. But sincew thousands of people around the US at least thought it was, then I'm not exactly alone in my misconception since quite honestly, I couldn't disagree with a single thing in there. He should give the speech.

That being said, I demand proportional response from you all and complete forgiveness for my error of quotation but not of intent.

Now if I get TS'd for this, then I must say that, at least until recently, it's been a real pleasure knowing most of you.

[Lars39]

99. You copied and pasted the whole damn thing and knew it wasn't

factual.

[breakaleg]

95. you just outed yourself as a shit-disturber.

and you lost all credibility.

[Zhade]

98. Why did you lie?

Your credibility is shot (and this WILL be saved, and remembered, and recalled).

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

97. Thank you for the info.

It looks like the OP is basically slandering the Israeli PM by making him sound like a bloodthirsty madman, and then attacking anyone who dares to disagree with his RW fantasy creation. I fell for it too.

I hope he gets tombstoned for this little stunt.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rasputin1952]

86. There is a lot of passion across the spectrum about what is going

on in the ME right now.

I, for one, do not wish to see anyone killed, maimed or orphaned...I don't care which side they are on. I believe that there are factions that do not care about human llife, and I am not here to speculate on who or what they are religiously or nationally; there is plenty of blame to go around.

What I do see though, is that the common man and woman, regardless of where they stand on the religious or national spectrum are being killed, maimed and terrified to a degree that is far beyond anything that is 'permissable', (although none of these things should be 'permissable').

In times like these, the rhetoric goes to the "tough" side of things, and while I cannot blame leaders for standing up for their citizens, such rhetoric ensures that the opposition's rhetoric will increase in volume and "toughness". Why people do this is obnoxious, but it is a fact of life at this point. No one wants to sit down and TALK about things, they want to take decisive action. I find that all sides in this conflict are despicable in their barrages of hate filled spech, and the way that people, common people, innocents, are being cut down. The leaders on all sides need to be held accountable, for they are not doing the fighting, the dying, the long years of physical and mental rehab.

I knew survivors from the Holocaust when I was growing up in NYC, there were quite a few in our neighborhood. I found myself sympathizing with them, and I still do. I also find myself sympathizing with Jordanians and Lebanese who are caught up in a situation that has been thrust upon them by some misguided fools that believe they can destroy the vestiges of Judaisim.

I do not have the answers for this situation, nor, apparently, do most posters here; but I do know that more hatred, more death, and especially, more ignorance will do nothing to alleviate the suffering.

Let us all hope and pray that a balanced situation can come of this...for the leaders who have brought this horror about certainly can't figure out much more that any of us can. Until the people of the ME actually learn that compromise is an option, they will continue to expound hatred, death and destruction. Rather than face these situations on their own, the real crime is that they force others to suffer, when all the common person wants to do is live in peace and some form of harmony with their fellow human beings.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

89. A great big "F U" to the world.

The man sounds dangerously unstable to me. He seems to be wallowing in a persecution complex. I also like his use of the Holocaust as a Universal Justification for Everything that Israel does or could convievably do against its present day enemies.

He sounds like the leader of a country that needs to grow the fuck up.

[everythingsxen]

100. Right..

because having your people exterminated while living in the borders of other nations has worked out so well for the Jews over the centuries...

And of course, it was so "ridiculous" of him to bring up the Holocaust, it's not like Nasrallah and Hezbollah have talked about exterminating the Jews... oh wait... that's one of their goals.

[Lars39]

103. Read the thread, this wasn't the PM's speech.

[Marie26]

101. This is not a reassuring speech. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

104. Marie, it's a fake speech...

Olmert never gave this speech and his speechwriters didn't write it. It's some garbage that's been doing the rounds of the internet over the past day or so....

[Marie26]

108. You're right!

This thread either needs to be re-named or locked. It looks like this was just written by a journalist named Ben Caspit to "explain what Israel's fighting for."

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/457/743.html

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[Fenris]

111. Locking.

A) This is not the Prime Minister's speech. 2) This is unnecessarily provocative and has turned into a flamewar.

Fenris
GD Moderator