Maybe the Marshall Plan was not such a good thing

[SensibleAmerican]

Because after World War II we've gotten this idea in our collective consience that through war we can make any society prosperous. We were successful in Europe, Japan, halfway in Korea ... We even believe, rightly or wrongly, that the war in Vietnam prevented the spread of communism to other countries in Asia. We believe that heavy defense spending brought about the fall of communism in Russia.

And maybe after a major Middle Eastern war that seems more and more likely each day, the Middle East will become mirror images of some sort of democratic versions of Kuwait and the UAE. But at what cost? Forget about the cost to the armed forces of Britain, Israel, the United States, and potentially France. What is the cost going to be to the entire Middle Eastern region? Are we going to have a case of the fittest survive?

To an extent, I sympathize with the ideals of the neoconservatives, and I use this term broadly. But this is not the way to do it ...

[dorktv]

1. The marshall plan was designed to PREVENT another war.

And people are warlike in general.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Marshall Plan was an alternative to military conflict/spending. nt

[izzie]

9. We also needed countries to trade with. A small thing maybe

I think Bush has set the Middle East back as it would get to where it wanted to be in its own time as countries have to do. Course their own countries may control their own oil. Also no one wanted what happened after WW1 to happen with Germany once more and some thing had to be done. The country had been bombed to death. Half the men were dead and maybe 100,000 had gone to prison in Russia. Japan was in as bad shape. Every one did not like us doing it. Besides that I think after 100's of years that Europe had had it with wars. They wanted them all to stop. It was one of the reasons that they did not stop Hitler. They did not want another WW1 where 70,000 men were killed in one battle. They wanted to believe him. Stacked up to these counties we have lost so few men and our country has never been bombed that we tend to see it Thur rose colored glasses. If you have time some day just look at who died during WW1 and WW2 and you will see what I mean. Be sure to check on the countries people also and not just their army.

[jpkenny]

13. That's precisely why the RW conservatives hated it.

War is a racket and it makes money for selected people while it also enables the victors to capture the spoils.

[Captain Hilts]

14. George C. Marshall was a great man. nt

[SoCalDem]

3. The marshall plan worked in Europe because the majority of the people

there WANTED it to work, and they were "like us"... We created our own markets, in a way.. In order for them to recover, they would need to buy stuff..In order to have money to BUY stuff they had to have jobs.. There was all that recenty "cleared land"...and of course we rebuilt everything from the ground up...

Globalization had not happened yet, and the US was the manufacturing juggernaut..Things are different now..

Viet Nam.. we just walked away and said ...enough already..

Japan was a society that valued shame, and on losing, they were ready to change their ways and accept what we had to offer.. They had no other choice.

The middle east does not want our ideas/products/attention.. they do niceley without them, and as long as the religious zealots are in charge, we would be wise to not keep poking that hornet's nest..

They say they want to be left alone.. I say leave them alone..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. "they do niceley without them"

For SOME definitions of "doing nicely."

[SoCalDem]

18. according to THEM... thta's precisely why we need to stay out of their

"biddness".. Some have oil..they need to sell it..we need to buy it.. We need a customer/provider relayionship with them...

and if THEIR people do not like the governments they have, then THEY need to rise up against it..while we just continue to be their customer..

If Macy's decides to buy May Company (and they did), we just change the name on our checks, but we continue to shop there..


When WE decide what's best for people we don;t know, it's never a good idea..

Ask the Native Americans, or the Hawaiians, or the Aleuts...

I have a sneaky suspicion that the overbuilt Hawaiian Islands would still be the sleepy paradise that it once was..and the people there would still be welcoming to tourists, BUT THEY would have a much better stake in what their islands looked like and the pace of things there..

Just because we think we can do something, and it will benefit mostly US, is not necessarily a reason to DO it.

[MissWaverly]

4. we went into Iraq to plunder it, read Armed Madhouse

by Greg Palast, from day one, the object there has been to weaken Iraq not strengthen it,
we went in there seeking plunder like the spanish conquistadors and that is what happened
to it. Mr. Wilkes the defense lobbyist is now talking how the GOP had a loop designed to
kick back money out of defense contracts for their campaigns. The money was sucked out
of the Iraq War, the GOP cash cow, it was not spent arming the soldiers and it was not
spent on Iraq. Bricks of cash, thrown away with no accountability.

[pretzel4gore]

7. the United States of slambamthankyouma'America

haha.
bush screws, she naps, we clap, he smiles

[MissWaverly]

8. don't worry, we will pay for this the rest of our lives

What we are doing here is like what we did doing slavery, we will be paying for this a long
time.

[1932]

11. Exactly. The Iraq invasion and occupation is the OPPOSITE of Marshall Plan

.

[MissWaverly]

16. Yes, that's right, it's not the Marshall Plan that failed

It wasn't our fight against communism that failed, somehow this current plan is not what we
ever wanted to do and how we stop doing this I don't know. I can't see how the Congress
ever approved all of this, the way the reconstruction went in Iraq, the mass producing of
weapons banned by the UN, the creation of a biological testing lab to create lethal strains
of bacteria although we have signed a treaty not to do so. The flagrant ignoring of the
treaties against nuclear proliferation. And now Bolton is saying that dead Lebanese somehow
don't count as much as dead Israelis. Was this man ever approved by Congress for his
position. Why is he there? Why are our ports being handled by Dubai when the American
people have clearly indicated that is not what we want. Why is it that whatever we want
is shouted down and we get something else instead.

[nealmhughes]

5. Let the sheiks and amirs finance the Middle East.

How much charity do they even give, despite its requirement in Islam?
I know the Aga Khan does a great deal for the Ismailis,but he is the head of a sect, and no idea about the other pseudo-royalty except for Dubai's development scheme.
Anyone heard of the King Khalid Memorial Free Medical Center in Gaza lately?
How about the 25,000 the al-Sabah family personally sent to college in Yemen?
Gee, I guess that's because they didn't...

[nealmhughes]

6. Let the sheiks and amirs finance the Middle East.

How much charity do they even give, despite its requirement in Islam?
I know the Aga Khan does a great deal for the Ismailis,but he is the head of a sect, and no idea about the other pseudo-royalty except for Dubai's development scheme.
Anyone heard of the King Khalid Memorial Free Medical Center in Gaza lately?
How about the 25,000 the al-Sabah family personally sent to college in Yemen?
Gee, I guess that's because they didn't...

[Sinti]

10. They don't want no prosperous societies in the ME

They happily embrace the rulers that keep the boot down on their people - like Saudi Arabia. They sure don't want democracy, they embrace Pakistan, which is a military junta. The difference here is that those two countries, and the others that we love, allow our corporations to make big money through them - and they're generally happy to hop on board any regional conflict we might want to stir up. Read "The Grand Chessboard" - it's about power, the plan has just been adjusted to suit a new world.

You can read some online at this link:

http://book-case.kroupnov.ru/pages/library/Grand/

[TahitiNut]

12. (Good grief!) The purpose of the Marshall Plan was to ...

... prevent a third phase of the World War. WW2 was merely WW Part 2 becuase of the heinous and inhumane manner in which Germany was treated after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles required complete capitulation, major losses of territory, an "army" of no more than 100,000 men, loss of the private citizens' right to bear arms, massive reparations (269 billion gold marks), and hardships that guaranteed we'd see WW2.

I'm a bit stunned that anyone on a "Democratic" political forum wouldn't be well-versed in the driving principles of the Marshall Plan and why it worked.

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles for starters.

[MissWaverly]

17. we understand why it worked; it was brilliant and did the job

What we don't understand is how we are at the place we are currently in which has nothing at all
to do with the Marshall Plan, in fact; it is the complete opposite of the Marshall Plan, it's
purpose was to strip Iraq of all assets for the benefit of concerned parties.

[kineneb]

20. hear, hear

and another reason for the Marshall Plan was to assure that Europe, especially Germany, would never experience the hyperinflation that plagued the Weimar Republic. That financial instability helped lead to the rise of Hitler and the Nazi Party. It was one of the most brillant things ever done by a victorious country: assist in rebuilding the vanquished for a more stable world. Of course the Cold War was already underway, and the Plan also served as bribe of sorts to keep Europe on "our side".

[Cleita]

19. But, but, but, we have no Marshall Plan.

If we did in Afghanistan and now in Iraq, the outcome would be different. If you don't think it was successful, read up on your history. Read up on the countries like the Soviet bloc nations who didn't have the Marshall Plan and compare them to the nations who did get the Marshall Plan after WWII. I think you will see the difference there of night and day.

What we are bringing to the world today is Soviet style reconstruction or basically nothing but exploitation.