Pro-abortion and pro-life discussion

[Hawkeye-X]

I had this discussion with this Republican on my newsgroup: the

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 02:24:56 GMT, Robert Feeple <[e-mail]>
wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:28:22 -0600, DarkFiber wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:05:56 +0000, Robert Feeple wrote:
>
>>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:31:14 -0600, DarkFiber wrote:
>
>>>> ...anti-choice political sign or an
>>>> anti-gun political...
>
>>> Try "Pro-Life", and "Pro 2nd Amendment" (to the U.S. Constitution),
>>> instead.
>
>> The meanings you cite above are not the same as what I cited. Dressing up
>> "Anti-Choice" with the dishonest, feel-good term "Pro-Life" is akin to
>> when spammers call their unwanted bulk emails "opt-in broadcast email".
>
><snip>
>
>"Anti-choice" is a deliberately loaded political statement; as is
>"pro-life". One is either "pro-abortion", or "anti-abortion". Nothing
>else matters but the politics of the words actually used in the debate.

pro-abortion? Republicanspeak. We are pro-choice, and we want to avoid
abortion if possible, but keep it legal. Noone I know is pro-abortion,
except one nut at DU.

>
>The problem is, even "pro-abortion" is politically loaded; a liability
>to the so-called "Pro-Choice" crowd. However, the truth is that the
>"Pro-Choice" crowd is demonstrably "Pro-Choice" about abortion; but,
>equally demonstrably, not always "Pro-Choice" about other matters.

Prochoice do NOT consider themselves pro-abortion, Robert. They prefer
to have the option of abortion. We like to think of it as legal, and
rare. How would you feel if we called you pro-life meaning that you
love to have babies, BUT still want war? That's hypocrisy to the nth
degree. Many pro-life Congresscritters have voted for the war, and
truthfully, they should relabel themselves as pro-death as they vote
to cut body armor costs, pension, medical needs, and other necessities
for the veterans of foreign wars such as this IraqNam, causing the
death of over 2,500 Americans with no end in sight.

>But "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" are, at least, more honest than
>any other description that I can think of.

No it's not. Pro-choice is more honest. Pro-life is not.

---------------------------
I'll keep you guys posted on what this nut says.

[progdonkey]

1. before you can assign "pro" and "anti" sides...

you must first find what is the true core difference. That is, what is it that truly matters to the person? Life? Choice? Abortion?

The term "pro-abortion" is, as you say, total BS, as it's akin to saying someone's "pro-open heart surgery" or "pro-amputation." Abortion is a medical procedure carried out by a doctor after consultation with the patient over what is the best course of treatment (and, indeed, a heart is just as much a human being as a blastocyst--that is to say, not even close), so the idea of being "pro-surgery" or "anti-surgery" as a universal belief is absurd. Furthermore, pro-choicers are "anti-abortion" in that we want it so that a woman is never in the position in the first place of needing to consider an abortion. Pro-choicers are arguably far more "anti-abortion" than any in the self-proclaimed "pro-life" movement. If the anti-choicers were truly "anti-abortion," all of their energies would be focused on ending abortions, yet they instead do all they can to stop comprehensive sex ed that has been proven to reduce the number of teen pregnancies (and therefore by extension fewer abortions--you can't have an abortion without a pregnancy! ;-) ) in favor of abstinence-only programs that are so poor that the numbers of teen pregnancy either remain unchanged or actually increased (resulting of course in more girls having to consider abortion, if not actually having abortions).

When the line is "choice," however, we see that it truly is the exact description of what each side believes: pro-choicers believe women have the right to choose whether to have an abortion, anti-choicers believe women don't have that choice.

For someone who's truly "pro-life," the ultimate goal is the protection of life; anything that results in more life and less death is positive. We know all too well that few self-proclaimed "pro-lifers" truly feel this way.

For someone who's truly "anti-abortion," the ultimate goal is to reduce the number of or even completely eliminate abortions, yet few of the self-proclaimed "anti-abortionists" actually care about lowering the number of abortions, or else they'd support any measure that would result in fewer abortions, instead of programs based on religious dogma that either have no effect on or actually increase the number of abortions.

For someone who's truly "pro-choice," the ultimate goal is protecting a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body, which is exactly what "pro-choicers" fight for, so the title is apt.

Lastly, for someone who's "anti-choice," the ultimate goal is taking away that woman's right to choose what happens to her own body, which is exactly what supposed "pro-lifers" fight for, so the anti-choice label is likewise apt.

[melnjones]

3. That's why I call myself "pro-reality"...

I don't like abortion for many reasons, including moral reasons with late-term abortions, but I truly believe that abortion should be rare, safe, and legal because of separation of church and state and b/c I don't think others should have the right to tell a woman what she can do with her own body. Our most effective efforts are emphasizing improved access to contraceptives and plan B, including their coverage by medicaid. The IUD should be available through medicaid! It's a damn shame repubs don't understand this.

[DanCa]

5. I don't have a medical degree therefore I have no say in the procedure.

I miss the days when you needed a license to practice medicine in this country. I guess if you had to check me off it's pro neutral I just want to be left out of this conversation. The right doesn't see that and that gives me another reason to vote against them. I simply don't have the right, or enough information too make a medical descion for someone else.

[eallen]

2. I'm pro-choice with regard to most personal matters.

If an anti-choicer said to me, "the 'Pro-Choice' crowd is demonstrably.. not always 'Pro-Choice' about other matters," I would respond that my support for abortion choice reflects my strong belief in liberty regarding most personal matters, including but not limited to: choice in contraception, choice in sexual practices and partners, choice of marriage partners, choice in media, including pornography, choice in fertilization technologies, choice to smoke or not, choice of what plant to smoke, etc. The simple fact of the matter is that today's conservatives oppose freedom on a broad variety of issues. My tactic is to throw out a list, and point out it's not just about abortion. It's about a broad belief in freedom, or not.

[omega minimo]

4. Pro Men-Quit-Trying-To-Dominate & Control-Women's-Lives & Bodies

and the discussion/language/politics about same.










:kick:

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. .

:applause:

[oneinok]

7. my take

If you don't want an abortion...don't have one.

[Iris]

8. and just because you are pro-choice doesn't mean you will have one.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Don't Be So Narrow Minded And Sexist. The Issue Goes Far Beyond Men.

In fact, more women are anti-choice then men are. I hope you can open your mind enough to realize that, as you limit your power of progress and weaken your argument by limiting the argument to men alone.

[omega minimo]

31. Don't misintrepret endlessly. Don't be so mind crime minded

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. As Usual, Nothing Has Been Misinterpreted. In Fact, Your Words Required

very little interpretation, as they're so direct and pointed there is no question to ANYBODY what it was you were trying to say. So stop lying just for sake of trying to smear and attack me, when your words stand on their own.

You said: "Pro Men-Quit-Trying-To-Dominate & Control-Women's-Lives & Bodies and the discussion/language/politics about same."

Pretty direct. Nothing there to be misinterpreted at all. I said to not be so narrow minded and sexist, as voicing your anger over the issue at men only is very short sighted since more women then men are actually anti-choice. I stated that your argument is undermined and weakened when you limit your rage to just men alone, since it then makes you sound sexist and blinded rather than one trying to engage in thoughtful discussion. If you want people to listen and agree with your argument on the issue you will be far more successful if you addressed the issue honestly. That would mean including both genders in your argument since it is not in any way a gender split issue. When you make it one it just will tune a lot of people out because instead of thinking you have something wise to impart, they may instead think you are just bitter and sexist towards men.

So I didn't misinterpret anything. Your quote is quite plain for all to see. I merely offered some advice on empowering your argument since directing it solely at men is short sighted.

[City Lights]

9. My SIL threw "pro-abortion" at us recently to describe

her former view - before she found Jaysus. Now she's apparently "pro-life," although she used the term, "pro-woman" to describe herself. My husband let her have it regarding the use of "pro-abortion." He also told her that if she's really "pro-woman" she's pro-choice because the woman should be free to choose for herself rather than let the government limit her options by making abortion illegal. She actually said people would not go back to using coat hangers if abortion were outlawed. :eyes: Unfortunately, my dear SIL has gone off the deep end... :crazy:

[zbdent]

10. So how does this mental midget you're trying to evolve

justify "Pro-Life" stance with pro-war, pro-death penalty, defending every company that puts out products that can kill the users (and I'm not even talking about guns) by preventing the release of news of defects/hazards/dangers?

As soon as the "fetus" takes its first breath, he is dropped from the concerns of the Republicans, unless he/she is the spawn of a billionaire white person ... and male ...

[ComerPerro]

12. and they don't seem to care about all the embryos that get thrown away

[zbdent]

11. and how come he's allowed to dictate what he's called but won't let

you describe yourself as you see fit?

"Do as I say, not as I do..."

[Dob Bole]

13. Democrats=Pro-Choice, GOP=Anti-Choice, China=Pro-Abortion...

and I'm Pro-Life. Honestly, I vote on Human Rights issues. I do think that abortion is at worst the prevention of a life, and at best a poor social indicator. But the abortion rate also decreased under Clinton and increased under Bush. I also oppose the death penalty and the Iraq war. So although I consider myself Pro-Life, Bush had no chance at all to get my vote.

The only people I can think of who are "Pro-Abortion" are China, who enforces a 1-child limit, and that zealot on DU that you were talking about. One can be pro-choice and pro-life at the same time, and I really wish that Democrats would point that out. More than anything else in the debates, I think the abortion question hurt Kerry.

[calico1]

14. "Pro abortion" is such an idiotic term.

Never in my life have I ever known a couple or woman who were expecting a child, wanted to have it and were looking forward to having it that went and got an abortion just because they could. Nor have I ever known people like this to be harrassed or bullied into getting an abortion when they were looking forward to having the baby. "Pro abortion" implies just that. That there are "pro abortion" thugs running around trying to force people who want their babies into aborting them. It's just so ridiculous. :eyes:

[zbdent]

16. You'd think that the righties would really be "Pro-Abortion"

since, of course, the only people who are getting abortions are the liberals ...

(discounting the idea that the righties keep claiming that the minorities, who usually vote for liberals, keep putting out litters of kids because they're f*cking like rabbits in spring)

So, to get rid of all the liberals, they'd want the liberals to keep from breeding ...

and they'd also be all for abortions for pregnant welfare queens ...

[davhill]

17. Maybe thats why liberals have become virtually extinct N/T

[JerseygirlCT]

15. You're right, of course

You could suggest "pro-abortion rights" to him if he refuses to see the logic of pro-choice.

But "pro-life" is not a good descriptor. Anti-abortion is acceptable there, to me.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

18. Try pro-birth for this anti-choicers

because it's all about birth and nothing to do with life.

Once the fetus is out and about, that bunch couldn't care less about what happens to this child. Or what happens to the woman before, during or after the birth.

That's why they can also oppose birth-control.

It's all about doing whatever they can to force women into birthing.

It's how it's ok in their minds to prevent women who are raped from getting access to the morning after pill. (That's why Liebermann is actually pro-birth) Anything to force a birth.

[OnionPatch]

19. Well, if you take his reasoning to other beliefs, then...

I am pro-adultry and pro-drug addiction simply because I don't think either one should be illegal.

Just because we don't agree with something, doesn't mean we need to make it illegal. That's what BIG GOVERNMENT does.

[novalib]

20. EXCUSE ME!! I am proudly PRO-ABORTION!!!

Is there anyone here who is not pro-heart surgery?

Is there anyone here who is ashamed that they are pro-cancer surgery?

SO what is all this fuss about being pro-abortion?

To suggest that you are somehow not pro-abortion gives the anti-choice people a BIG argument in their favor -- it says that there is something "wrong" with abortion.

Well, here's a newflash -- abortion is a medical procedure -- get it??? -- a MEDICAL PROCEDURE!!!

It is NO DIFFERENT from cancer surgery or heart sugery or the removal of an infected appendix!

Who is not pro-heart surgery??!!

[melnjones]

22. Are you pro-heart surgery...

for people who don't have heart problems? That's the issue with the wording. No one wants heart surgery just to have it...rather, it serves a medical purpose. Exact same thing with abortion. I'd rather say I'm pro-"having good cardio health" than pro-heart surgery. If we can prevent people from needing heart surgery - and abortion - great. So, pass around the healthy food, exercise equipment, and contraceptives, while making sure the surgeries are safe and legal for the hopefully rare circumstances when they are needed.

[novalib]

26. Who Has Heart Surgery???!!!!

Do you know of anyone -- ANYONE AT ALL??? -- who has heart sugery "just to have heart surgery"??!!

Do you know of anyone -- ANYONE AT ALL?? -- who has an abortion "just to have an abortion"????!!!!

The whole notion is completely bogus.

It's exactly the sort of thing I'd expect some right-wing zealot to ask me.

OF COURSE I DO NOT SUPPORT HEART SURGERY FOR PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE HEART PROBLEMS!

AND OF COURSE I DO NOT SUPPORT ABORTIONS FOR PEOPLE WHO DO NOT NEED TO HAVE ABORTIONS.

BUT that does NOT make me any less "pro-heart-surgery".

And -- more to the point here -- IT DOES NOT MAKE ME ANY LESS PROUD TO BE PRO-ABORTION.

Show me even one person who has EVER had abortion without needing to have one, and maybe then I'll respond to your trick question!

[melnjones]

28. ...

:yoiks:

Absolutely amazing to watch people throw a tantrum over a discussion on semantics, especially when they essentially agree on the issue itself.

:shrug:

[novalib]

30. NO. What IS Amazing...

Excuse me, but what is amazing is not seeing someone throwing a tantrum. It happens. A lot.

What IS, in fact, ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY AMAZING, is watching people buy into a word usage that undermines their own position.

Like being ashamed of saying, "I AM PRO ABORTION".

I submit that someone who is ashamed to say that they are pro abortion is tacitly saying that there is somehow something wrong with abortion.

And that is BULLSHIT! Because there is NOTHING at all wrong with abortion.

Abortion is a MEDICAL PROCEDURE. It is performed ONLY on people who NEED TO HAVE IT DONE!

No one except anti-choice who REALLY do think that there is something intrinsically wrong with abortion should be anti-abortion!!

I suppose if you think -- really think -- that abortions are sometimes done on women who do not need them -- why, then, you also probably think that abortions are wrong.

But if you buy that argument, then what you are really saying is that women sometimes have abortions when they do not need to have them.

And that is something I would expect to hear from, oh, Antonin Scalia. Not here.

[Touchdown]

21. I heard a description awhile ago.

"Pro-conpulsory pregnancy." Sounds more descriptive than any I heard before.

[Scout]

23. If I WERE anti-abortion (I'm not, I'm pro-choice)...

I'd be picketing at ob-gyn offices, warning women of the many ways their lives and health are at risk with any/every pregnancy that is carried to term.

I'd be haranguing them, and shouting at them, and calling them selfish for breeding when the world is already overpopulated with fully average human beings.

I'd be trying to force sterilization on women and men, because goddess knows we don't need to breed.

there's probably more I could and would do, but that's just off the top of my head.

[porphyrian]

24. "Pro-life" isn't.

A more appropriate term would be "pro-controlling-the-lives-and-bodies-of-others." These self-righteous fucks are less interested in saving babies than they are trying to tell other people what to do and how to do it. If they really cared about saving lives, they'd be too busy feeding and housing the poor and homeless to stand on the street in front of abortion clinics all day. Hypocritical pieces of shit, all.

[Norquist Nemesis]

25. I'm anti-government control

Ask Robert this: "Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say that abortion is outlawed. That means that the decision is now in the hands of the government. What happens when the government changes it's mind and forces abortion because it is in the best interest of the state or deemed national security interest?"

When he replies that would not happen, tell him to just "Think China."

[Solo_in_MD]

27. What gets said in NANAE should stay on NANAE

there is enough madness here and there as it is...Besides, Morley is right when he says:
- your womb, your call
- my gun, my call

[Hawkeye-X]

33. So you know Morely?

Just wondering.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. Indeed I do

I am a long term NANAE participant under another nym. I've offered to send Godiva to Shiksaa, sneered at Alan Conner, and supported a some of the legal funds there.