Zero tolerance for anti-semitism on DU -- anyone with me?

[beachmom]

Forgive me for being away for a while, but as I started getting back up to speed I am truly disheartened to see a two pronged attack against the Jewish people from the Christianist Right (Mel Gibson) and now from the Left as a result of the conflict in Lebanon right on the Greatest Page of DemocraticUnderground. I am not the only one among liberals to have noticed this horribly disturbing element in our midst. Josh Marshall at TPM has a great post of his conflicted feelings about the war in Lebanon:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009318.php

I'm hearing two streams of conversation about the war -- two whole worlds of conversation and debate, you might say, often as distinct from each other as night and day.

One is the one we all see every day in the mainstream news -- the major papers and news networks and so on. And then there's another -- one I'm exposed to largely, but not exclusively, through email we get at TPM.

And it's this latter conversation that's engaged my attention, rattled me and intensified and deepened my belief in Zionism.

There's a whole detailed and after a while sterile debate about what sort of criticism of Israel amonts to 'anti-Semitism' and what doesn't. Suffice it to say that many of these emails have breathed a tone of hostility and double-standard toward Israel specifically and sometimes Jews generally that have left my head spinning. They range from wild conspiracy theories about the origins of this war to the blanket assumption that every civilian death in Lebanon was an intentional killing of civilians and a war crime. From there -- where to begin? -- we have debates over just when it was that Israel forfeited its right to exist -- the murder of Rabin, through a rather inverted logic, seems to be a favorite -- to where the Israelis should be deported to when the state is liquidated, and so on.

I'd like to say I'm not surprised that these views are out there. But I'm not sure I can quite say that honestly. It is more than I expected. And the intensity and sometimes the violence of it has surprised me.

It makes one feel schizophrenic to both declare allegiance with Israel while being critical of their conduct of the war, but that's the best way to describe my feelings. Yet others on this site have crossed the line into ugliness and unbelievable anti-Israel vitriol, for which nothing but the term "anti-semitism" can describe their posts.

Bill Maher said it best on HuffPost:

As I watch so much of the world ask Israel for restraint in a way no other country would (Can you imagine what Bush would do if a terrorist organization took over Canada and was lobbing missiles into Montana, Maine and Illinois?) - and, by the way, does anyone ever ask Hezbollah for restraint, you know, like, please stop firing your rockets aimed PURPOSEFULLY at civilians? - it strikes me that the world IS Mel Gibson. Most of the time, the anti-semitism is under control, but that demon lives inside and when the moon is full, or there's been enough alcohol consumed, or Israel is forced to kill people in its own defense, then it comes out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/the-world-is-mel-gibson_b_26315.html

I'm writing this not to be a flamer, but for everyone to take a step back and reflect on what has been said and why. Because I know for sure this type of talk is NOT welcome in the Democratic Party, for which over 70% of the Jewish population voted for John Kerry in 2004. If this is how people think on DU, then perhaps I should leave, because I'm a liberal first and foremost because I think discrimination and hatred against any "Other" is morally wrong. If the posters at DU do not believe in this ideal, then that is an irreconciliable difference that can never resolved.

Thanks for listening.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Sure! Define anti-semitisim

Once we have an agreement on what it is, we can avoid it.

:evilgrin:

[Junkdrawer]

9. I know: Let's make the word "anti-semitisim" meaningless by conflating...

it with any and all criticisms of Israel.

Short-term gain with a horrible long-term cost.

[havocmom]

15. I think that is the point the poster was making

There has been too much of that very thing here at DU.

[Junkdrawer]

18. Just to be clear: I agree with Cronus Protagonist. n/t

[havocmom]

30. Thanks for clearing that one

This is gonna get messy. Avoiding misunderstanding will go a long ways to help
:toast:

[meldroc]

22. Absolutely.

Just to be clear,

"The Israeli government's policies on X sucks because of reasons A, B & C." is NOT anti-semitism.

"All Jews suck." IS anti-semitism.

[butterfly77]

118. Asking a questions about the jews and palestines and ...

how and why the situation is the way it is, is not anti-semitism but ask a few questions about it and watch the anger and anti-semetic remarks.

[stepnw1f]

69. BINGO!

Reminds me of "the Little Boy that Cried Wolf" one too many times.

Great way to try to divide the left with a straw man argument... just to pre-emptively snuff out any criticism of Israel. Aren't folks of different religious points of view living in Israel?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

35. So not supporting Israel's policies is anti-semitism?

I want to understand you clearly. If this is what you are saying, that is the end of my interest here as I do not equate not supporting any country's policy as being bigoted against that country's citizens.

Does Lebanon have a right to defend itself?

[beachmom]

48. There is not even a desire to UNDERSTAND Israel's POV

THAT, my dear friend, is wrong. If you read Josh's full post, he is (like me) critical of Israel in a certain respect, but if you guys don't GET that these Iran-backed organizations aren't hell bent set on DESTROYING Israel, then you're practicing willful ignorance. I would say Lebanon is involved in a two front war, having been taken over by these terrorists and then being attacked by Israel. The good liberal people of Lebanon who were part of the Cedar revolution -- what voice were they given with Hezbollah's attacks? Nothing. Stop acting like Israel is the only "bad guy" there. Unbelievably naive.

[uppityperson]

70. Stop accusing me of "acting like Israel is the only bad guy here"

unbelievable how you do that. Not supporting Israel on a policy is not anti-semitism any more than not supporting Mr.bush on a policy is anti-americanism. You insult me by saying this and by accusing me of "acting like Israel is the only bad guy here, unbelievably naive".

[KaptBunnyPants]

108. Israel is not the only bad guy, but it is still a bad guy

So how can you ask our support for them? When I see a legitimate effort by Israel to make peace with it's neighbors, then I'll start being sympathetic towards them. I will never support genocide or ethnic cleansing, so as long as Israeli officials choose to treat Arabs as "dogs" or "beasts on two legs", I will continue to oppose their policies.

[treestar]

123. Not agreeing with everything they do it not the same as no

desire to understand their point of view.

They are killing civilians on both sides. I don't have much understanding of either point of view, frankly, and don't see how their constant fighting and killing is supposed to gain either side any sympathy.

I'm sick of all of them, but the Arab side doesn't constantly accuse me of anything. In fact, I haven't heard their side at all. This is a one sided debate between support everything Israel does or you are anti-semitic ("understand" why they "have no choice" but to kill civilians) and maybe it's OK to criticize people for killing civilians as collective punishment and can we have your permission to consider that evil, please?

Bullshit.

[Cronus Protagonist]

52. This is where the rubber hits the road

It needs to be addressed that there are a lot of Arabs, natives and immigrants living in Israel who are not Jewish, and as with some of the Jews living there, not all of them support their government's actions either.

In support of your argument, then, criticism of Israel's actions is far from being anti-semitic, which is a stretch any time, and more about being anti-war or at least critical of a nation state's political military actions. The religion of most of a country's people is simply not relevant in this context.

[havocmom]

45. ::sigh:: We can support a country's right to defend itself AND be critical

of foreign policy that goes so far as to include Collective Punishment and other violations of Geneva.

We can criticize it when American leaders do horrible things without being un-American
We can do it when Israeli leaders go too far.

To brand any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic is a wonderful way to cave in to the PNACers and neocons. It is doing their work for them

Sorry, I won't go there. I can (and have for years) support Israel and still have some serious differences with the current leadership.

Doesn't make me hate my nieces to hate Likud policies that are making things more dangerous for them

[WildEyedLiberal]

61. I think that's actually what beachmom is saying

She's not saying that there is no room for criticism of Israel's policies... only that some here go WAY too far and start throwing around extreme rhetoric that amounts to calling Israel an illegitimate state that is wantonly, purposely killing women and children for sport. There's a big, big difference between speaking out against Israel's response and calling it a "terrorist state."

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

76. You're crossing a lot of grey lines there.

There is a difference between saying Israel doesn't have the right to exist and saying that its actions make it a terrorist state. The two are completely different terms. So far as I'm concerned, they have the right to exist and defend themselves, but regularly kidnapping and killing innocent civilians alone makes it a terrorist state, which says little for the many other tactics it employs.

[breakaleg]

87. I've seen anyone say that Israel is an illegitimate state...

I've seen defenders of Israel claim that if we don't agree with the current conflict then it's because we don't believe in Israel's right to exist. But I've never seen anyone on the other side say that.

That is a catch phrase that gives them an excuse for the current conflict when they are trying to deflect the current issue or question on the table. If you look at the posts, you will see that phrase used every time they go off tangent. It is never the crux of the discussion at the time.

[breakaleg]

77. I would even go so far as to say that criticizing US policy IS

American. Isn't that what free speech and democracy are all about? The US is the country it is today because people disagreed and stood up and brought about change. It's about letting everyone have their voice heard.

I don't think criticizing Israel's policy equates to being Anti-Israel either. Any more than criticizing US policy makes anyone anti-American.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

46. Wrong - Israel attacked.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=733427

[LostinVA]

71. Israel was not an Innocent bystander in this mess

And in the last few weeks have committed numerous war crimes.

We all know that Hezbollah aren't a bunch of saints, but neither is Israel. The only differences between the two are US backing, fancier weapons, and nice uniforms.

[Spearman87]

126. One significant difference I've noticed

Hezbo has never dropped leaflets of warning prior to attacking where civilians are likely to be present. Civilian death are definitely a goal of theirs. They have never expressed any regret over civilian deaths. They have cheered them.

[blonndee]

127. Dropped leaflets...via their air force? n/t

[NVMojo]

2. I am against any racism here but the right to be against a political

faction or a religious faction?? That's a different story. Ideologies are destroying peace on this planet.

[mark414]

3. opposition to foreign policy is not anti-semitism

[havocmom]

13. BRAVO

We aren't anti-American for fighting bushco policies. We won't sit still for criticism of any particular leaders' bad policy being painted as a sort of bigotry.

[LostinVA]

72. Bingo!

[The Straight Story]

106. I think you missed the whole point....(nt)

[mark414]

122. hmm no

i agree that anti-semitism needs to stop and i'd be a liar if i said that nobody opposed to israel or israel's policies is an anti-semite.

does it mean i hate chinese people because of their government's suppression of opposition and free speech? no. and i'm not anti-jewish because i disagree with a lot of israel's foreign policy...i think hezbollah sucks too, but i don't hate arabs...

and while i agree that anti-semitism is probably stronger than most people would realize but that's still no reason to confuse it with criticism of israel...

[Cleita]

4. Only for anti-semitism? I seem to have seen more

than a small share of bigotry in general here at DU. It seems we should have zero tolerance for all of it. Also, I don't consider criticism of the neo-con right wing government of the sovereign nation of Israel to be anti-semitism.

[w4rma]

5. Agreed, both Jewish and arab semites should be treated equally.

I'm sick of the racism, too.

[K8-EEE]

6. I Have No "Allegiance To Israel"

It's kind of a shock to me that I'm supposed to have one -- I don't like their leadership, I don't like what they're doing. If any of that makes me "anti" anything, sorry, it's just my genuine feelings.

I have an "allegiance" to PEACE AND JUSTICE, as much for Israel as for anybody -- but I don't like either US or Israeli "exceptionalist" thinking, (ie, WMD is OK for us, not them; ignoring the UN is OK for us, not them) nor am I convinced that Gawd cares where anybody lives.

It annoys me that over and over again anything other than a 100% blank check to Israeli aggression is "anti-Jewish."

[ananda]

20. Worth repeating...

"It's kind of a shock to me that I'm supposed to have one -- I don't like their leadership, I don't like what they're doing. If any of that makes me "anti" anything, sorry, it's just my genuine feelings.

I have an "allegiance" to PEACE AND JUSTICE, as much for Israel as for anybody -- but I don't like either US or Israeli "exceptionalist" thinking, (ie, WMD is OK for us, not them; ignoring the UN is OK for us, not them) nor am I convinced that Gawd cares where anybody lives.

It annoys me that over and over again anything other than a 100% blank check to Israeli aggression is "anti-Jewish." "

Well said. My views also.

[jonnyblitz]

25. and neither do I. I am amused people assume it's a requirement.

that's how indoctrinated we are.

[K8-EEE]

31. Wassup With THAT?

Not having an allegiance to a foreign country makes you some kind of a biggot? Hell I don't even give my own country a blank check when it comes to war/aggression, much less a foreign country.

[jonnyblitz]

43. all these demands fo fall in line or "I am leaving DU" get tiresome

just GO ALREADY! :D

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

79. Israel has screwed the Un over and over again

They ignore resolutions trying to make them stop their apartheid system.

[breakaleg]

105. Israel has no respect for the UN. They've ignored numerous

resolutions themselves, but when there is one that they like, they jump up and down and expect it to be enforced? Maybe they would have a little more credibility if they obeyed ALL UN resolutions.

[K8-EEE]

121. They Have Nukes And They Aren't Supposed To

And judging by how they've bungled this latest war and caused so much destruction, I think there should be an effort to enforce that one and de-nuke that government. It's a UN resolution, no? We went into Iraq for less...and they had SHIT!

[Marr]

98. Yeah, no kidding. When did "allegiance to Israel" become some kind

of patriotic prerequisite? I have no devotion to any foreign government, and I can't believe so many people just accept the idea that they're supposed to.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. 70% of 2.2% of our entire population.

That means only 1.54% of our population. Just to put that into perspective, first of all.

Secondly, to comment on Bill Maher's statements - has he not seen the multi-decade crusade against terrorism and the literally millions of statements against actions like Hezbollah's? Furthermore, Israel's weapons are highly accurate, meaning they also intentionally kill civilians.

Finally, criticism of Israel DOES NOT, NOR WILL IT EVER AMOUNT TO ANTI-SEMITISM! Period. This is non-negotiable. If that is your definition, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Karenca]

8. I was really surprised at all the

jew-bashing I've been hearing.

I've been against Israel'e policies for a very long time.

but,

If you hate all jews for the actions of the Israeli government,
then why not hate all Americans for the atrocities of the bush regime?

It's the same thing.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. I'm sure those posts do exist,

but I sure haven't seen them. I have, however, seen posts critical of the zealots that are so pro-Israel that there is no discussing anything with them whatsoever. They will deny articles even written by Israeli newspapers that criticize Israel and statements by former Knesset members, such as the ones made by B'Tselem. Criticizing those people is no different than DUers criticizing the freepers that support Bush. Similarly, we know that freepers don't represent all of the U.S. (and most of us realize they don't even represent most Republicans), and certainly, those zealots do not represent all Jews.

[Karenca]

28. There was a long

thread yesterday that got locked because it turning quite ugly.

I agree 100% with the rest of your post.

[LostinVA]

82. There have been no "Jew bashing" posts

Except for a handful by trolls.

[mmonk]

10. Define your standard.

It seems to be on a sliding scale sometimes.

[Richard Steele]

40. She defined it in post #27: Criticism of Israel is anti-semitism.

[mmonk]

55. I see. I guess I'm anti-semitic. I guess Jews that are still

for a peace process are as well. She might want to tell them since they are obviously not aware they are.

[matcom]

11. ***YAWN***

[uppityperson]

12. What on Greatest page do you mean?

Not agreeing with a country's policies is not anti-semitism, is not hating america, is disagreeing with a policy/policies

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

47. Ever heard of a group called "Revenge of the Toddlers"?

I'm guessing you haven't.

[uppityperson]

51. Disagreeing with the current Lebanon war is "anti-Israel all the time"?

OK, that tells me what I need to know about what you are saying. It reminds me of the opinion that disagreeing with Mr.bush's policies makes one anti-american.

I can see the difference between disagreeing with a country's policy and being bigoted against the people. I am sorry you cannot.

[LostinVA]

90. How dare you say, "Or perhaps we all know why"

What kind of fascist bully tactic is this?

Whatever.

Ignore.

[Oversea Visitor]

14. Am I considered anti-semitism

:(

[Karenca]

17. Why do you think that ? nt

[Oversea Visitor]

39. Well

I am against Isreal cause I feel that if they want this fight that has been going on for 50 years to end they got to end the occupation.

The logic is simple

If a BIGGER MEANER guy march into you house beat the shit out of you and claim your house as his.
Will you stop fighting to get it back even if it take you a million years.

So you see I am ANTI Isreal cause I believe their refusal to give the land back is the root cause of all this.

Maybe I should drop the BIGGER and MEANER description :(

[Karenca]

49. No, Those beliefs do not make

you ant-semitic.

Though, there are some
extremists that would say they do.

Too bad there's so much confusion.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Sure

As soon as someone can figure out what anti-semitism is around here (i.e. being critical of Israeli foreign policy is described and lambasted as blatant anti-semitism all too often in this joint) you can sign me up. Until then, put me in the anti-semite corner, because I'm going to criticize Israel's foreign policy any and every time I want.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. As usual, I find myself in your corner. (nt)

[malaise]

34. Ditto n/t

[cali]

38. Sure.

Antisemitism is not criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how harsh. It is not the hypocricy of painting israel as singular in its misdeeds. It is not even, as some claim, opposition to Israel's existence. It is: conflating Jews and Israel. It is claiming that Jews control Congress, or the U.S. or the media- all to nefarious purpose. It is claiming that Israel was responsible for 9/11 and that the Israeli government warned Jews to stay away that day. It's saying that "of course David Mamet feels that way: he's jewish", as if all Jews believe the same things. It's suggesting that American Jews are disloyal. It's that stupid Jews/Khazaks/Rothschild conspiracy that's popped up here recently. It's calling Joe Lieberman "jew-boy". It's referring to Bob Dylan as a "heeb". I could give you more examples, but that should suffice nicely, I'd imagine. And yes, each of those examples has appeared on DU within the last month, and no, they didn't come from people with low post counts.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

57. Sadly...

there are plenty of trolls here with high post counts.

[cali]

68. That may be true, but I think

its wishful thinking to put it all at the feet of trolls. I'm familiar with some of the posters who wrote some of this crap, and not familiar with others. I don't think they were all, or even mostly, trolls.

[beachmom]

58. I haven's been "in the trenches" these last couple of weeks

So you have to know how it looks from the outside looking in. Every post I see is CRITICAL of Israel while not talking about Iran, Syria or Hezbollah. That's unbalanced to the point of anti-semitism. I'm surprised by your post, Will.

[blonndee]

83. "unbalanced to the point of anti-semitism?"

Holy shit! I can't believe you actually think this way.

[LostinVA]

92. I'm with you, Will

[DemonFighterLives]

19. I'm just anti-war, anti- occupation

and anti- one sided peace brokering.

[mazzarro]

75. My sentiment indeed!

I am sick and tired of this crapola!

[MrModerate]

24. Depends on how you define 'anti-semitism' . . .

If it means giving the Israeli government a pass on their incredibly stupid assault on Lebanon, I'd have to say 'No' -- your zero tolerance doesn't fly with me.

Comparisons with what Bush would do (as cited above) are hardly convincing, and the situation in Lebanon is nothing like "a terrorist group taking over Canada." It's more that Lebanon has been battered for decades -- by Israel, by Syria, by home-grown islamofascists -- leaving it a weak state and unable to prevent Hezbollah from taking up residence in its territory and living side-by-side with its other citizens.

Certainly no rational person can support rocket attacks from Lebanese territory into Israel, but those same rational persons should not be approving of civilian deaths in Lebanon proper caused by incompetence and/or the Israeli military's dismissal of Lebanese civilians' right to draw breath.

The fact is that Israel, in defending its legitimate interests, doesn't give a rat's ass about collateral damage, or seems to believe that non-Hezbollah civilians are as guilty as the terrorists in their midsts. It's Israeli racism writ large.

And on top of that, this war won't work. Just as America is learning in Iraq, killing terrorists this way just breeds more terrorists. Israel should be looking at means of helping Lebanon banish the terrorists in its midst, not manufacturing more.

It's stupid, it's vicious, and it won't work. Remind you of anyone?

[chill_wind]

116. Well said. nt

[LSK]

26. how do you define anti-semitism ?

Some people equate ANY criticism of Israel as anti-semitism.

[acmavm]

29. And who decides? You? Me? Forget it.

And what you would like to be able to censor is any criticism of Israel and its government.

Some of the Israeli supporters have been pretty nasty as well. Is that find with you?

And all these threats about leaving. So what? Go. Others have when they found out that they weren't going to be able to call the shots and tell people what the can say. If things ever get too damb bad that I can't stand it, that's what I'll do. And I hope I won't be so melodramatic as to make an announcement before I do.

[Lerkfish]

32. who gets to decide? obviously there is a difference of opinion on that.

I'm leery of any "zero-tolerance" edicts, just on the face of them because we all need more tolerance, not less.

IMHO, many are incorrectly defining the outrage over IDF tactics as anti-semitism.
If so, and if you wish zero tolerance of any criticism of Israel policy, then you're going to have to extend that anyone who wishes to blame current US policy on fundamentalist christians, which actually is a MORE germaine criticism involving religion/political policy. If anything, that criticism is more akin to anti-semitism (anti-christianism) than criticism of IDF tactics.

but I've been here a while and have seen nothing to inhibit all sorts of terrible things said about christians in relation to how they influence US policy.

The reality is people who support Israel no matter what are going to see anti-semitism in every criticism or outrage. If they are the ones to decide what is or isn't anti-semitism, then we will no longer be able to discuss the issue at all.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

56. Hezbullah killed more americans than any other group? hahahahaha

I thought you were serious until you posted this. Snort, laughing here, you almost got me going believeing you were serious. :rofl:

[beachmom]

65. Oh, more conspiracy theories, eh?

Have you not forgotten the Marines barrack attack in Beirut in the early '80s, where with his tail between his legs, Ronald Reagan pulled troops out of Lebanon? Only 9/11 killed more in a single attack.

[uppityperson]

74. Seems like lots more got killed in VietNam, WW1/2, etc

You did not say "single attack" in the post I was replying to.

[mazzarro]

107. And what was the genesis of that incident?

it is conveniently forgotten that the US intervened on one side in a civil war in Lebanon. To mention the Marine Beirut attack as if it happened in a vacuum is both disingenous and manipulative.

[Occulus]

62. Are you talking about Israeli leadership, policy... or people?

Because criticism of the two former are in no way anti-semitic.... and I think you damn well know that.

[uppityperson]

84. I think poster knows, is stirring flames

[blonndee]

78. That is NOT anti-semitism. Just because you don't like it,

doesn't make it unacceptable in any way.

This post violates the new rules on this topic, too.

[matcom]

37. You need to read the new RULE at the top of GD

thanks

[LostinVA]

96. I already alerted on it

[Mandate My Ass]

41. "...or Israel is forced to kill people in its own defense,"

I call bullshit on that line. Israel is killing people because it wants to and is able to. Israel is doing nothing, nothing that would lessen or eliminate the killing of innocent civilians in Lebanon. If you think Israeli government still holds the moral high ground in this conflict, I couldn't disagree more.

And saying that does not make me an anti-semite, it makes me anti-neocon warmonger. If you want to believe that, fine, go right ahead, but it sounds to me that if DU doesn't subscribe to that particular opinion, en masse, you're picking up your ball and going home. 50,000 anti-war protesters marched in Tel Aviv on Saturday. I back them completely. Refuseniks are once again refusing to serve in this slaughter, they also have my 1000% support.

Oh, and Bill Maher can kiss my buttocks with his freeper talking point about hypothetical terrorists in Canada and what chickenhawk warmonger Bush would do in reponse. Who cares what Bush would do? He's done everything wrong so far and he'd do the wrong thing once again. It's because of Bush's warmongering foreign policy, sending the military to fight guerillas in countries that are too defenseless to oust them, that the world is in this mess. When Bush attacks Saudi Arabia, then I might listen to this line of reasoning.

[Scout]

44. Let's throw in zero-tolerance for language that's sexist and ....

demeaning to women, as the feminists and their supporters on DU have been asking/begging/negotiating for for a long time around here, and you've got a deal.

Oh yeah, you've got to define anti-semitism...

[Mandate My Ass]

60. Post 27 is pretty clear

If you criticize the Israeli government's actions, you're an anti-Semite.

And yes, the sexist language here is highly discouraging and rarely challenged, but I'm still here.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

The sexist language rules are relaxed in both directions.

Believe me, it's not all one way or another.

[Mandate My Ass]

73. I agree, the sexist language cuts both ways

and I respect the admins' decision regarding this. I wish it wasn't so, but it hasn't forced me to leave or issue ultimatums. :shrug:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

101. Nor has it forced me.

I just really loathe the concept that some people think that it's only anti-female comments that are tossed around here. I come across at least one anti-male remark on DU every single day, and I've yet to see one deleted. A lot of men here are assholes, but then again, so are a lot of women.

Let's just face a fact and say that people of every race, gender, and creed can completely and totally suck and be done with it. :-)

[Mandate My Ass]

120. Mean people suck...

Truer words were never spoken. :D

[Scout]

94. I'd harldy call post 27 a definition of anti-semitism... n/t

[Mandate My Ass]

102. It's the OP's definition

not mine. It's meant to pre-emptively squelch any and all discussion where Israel may be found culpable.

[Scout]

124. sorry, didn't mean to dis you....

should have directed my reply to the op instead!

:hi:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

50. What I find most amusing in all this...

has been this weird disconnect on what it is to be a "liberal" in regards to Israel.

As an American liberal, I am against my country when it engages in illegal invasion, occupation, collective punishment, disproportionate response, the denial of civil rights for prisoners, and generally acting the bully towards another country in the name of "national security".

Now, as an American liberal, I am suddenly supposed to support Israel when they do the exact same thing?????

I'm sorry, but that is just bullshit. Israel isn't some "special" child that needs to be held to different standards.

If I were to do that, I would not be a liberal, I'd be the world's biggest hypocrite.

[Joe Chi Minh]

53. Yes. Me.

[NoPasaran]

54. Thank you!

I'm getting tired of putting people on Ignore.

[hfojvt]

59. terrorist organization?

You mean the IDF or some other?

Is that anti-semitic? To call an organization that kills people in large quantities a terrorist organization?

"Can you imagine what Bush would do if a terrorist organization took over Canada and was lobbing missiles into Montana, Maine and Illinois?"

First, that is one long range missile that can shoot all the way over Wisconsin or the long way over Lake Michigan. Illinois? Why not Ohio? It's alot closer.

On the other hand, can you imagine what Canadians would do if the US had invaded Canada and occupied it for twenty years or so?

[LostinVA]

63. This is against new DU GD rules

And, it also utter and complete HOGWASH.

I have seen anti-Israeli government posts. I have not seen anti-semitic posts... although I have seen many, many anti-Arab posts.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

86. you seem more concerned about loosing the jewish vote

than actual concern for the jews. this is TWICE you mention jewish VOTERS that I have seen(the first time in your OP).

[Lars39]

88. You missed a hell of a lot of threads that caused those new rules

to be put in place by EarlGa and Skinner. Take it up with them if you don't agree with them.

[uppityperson]

91. here is a direct link to the rules. Asking if it is against rules is legit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1809690&mesg_id=1809690
1. ORIGINAL POSTS MUST BE ABOUT A CURRENT EVENT, AND CONTAIN NON-INFLAMMATORY, SUBSTANTIAL CONTENT
If you wish to start a thread in the General Discussion forum about the Middle East situation involving Lebanon, Israel, and the surrounding countries, it must be based on a current news story. The moderators may lock threads which are started with substance-free posts (for example, nothing but a link), or threads started with posts which contain inflammatory rhetoric.

2. DEBATE THREADS WHICH ARE NOT BASED ON A CURRENT NEWS STORY WILL BE MOVED
If you start a thread in General Discussion which is not based on a current event or news story, it will be moved to the Israel/Palestine forum where the thread will be subject to the special rules of that forum. (Yes, we know the name of the forum isn't entirely appropriate, but that's the least of our concerns at the moment.)

3. KEEP IT CIVIL
If you decide to persist in calling people who are attempting to have a reasonable discussion about these issues anything along the lines of terrorists, Jew-haters, Jew-lovers, neo-cons, Nazis, or any other red-hot rhetoric, then you may face further disciplinary action. There are plenty of other places on the Internet where you can have discussions like that. But not here.

[matcom]

93. so you'll be leaving us then?

ciao

[jonnyblitz]

99. I wonder if the she considers the Auswitz survivors that

came out against this war anti-semitic, too?

[Lars39]

112. I just kicked that thread back up.

[LostinVA]

113. According to her standards in post #27 -- yes

[LostinVA]

110. Yes, it is -- take it up with the Mods

You know what? SCREW your disgusting, bullying fascist posts that are doing NOTHING by stirring up SHIT that has finally settled down some.

Are you proud of your Sith-like "dealing in absolutes"? Happy with calling us all anti-semites, etc.

Screw that. I am beholden to no one or nothing except for peace. I will not be bullied into approving anyone's fascist, warmongering behaviour... including Israel's.

I call bullshit.

[uppityperson]

119. alert please

[stepnw1f]

81. "many anti-Arab posts"

I have as well, and plan on alerting the mods when I see it again.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

89. Amen to that.

Here, and everywhere else in this country, it's perfectly okay to be anti-Arab, and I see instances of it daily. Yet if one so much as sniffs of criticism towards Israel, they are labeled anti-Semitic. Somehow, I don't feel I'm the hateful one here for my remarks.

[cali]

111. I have seen a few anti-Arab

posts, and I have always responded. Alas, I have seen many antisemitic posts, and claims such as yours, are just wrong. In post #38 I gave some examples. Don't believe me, ask the administration whether antisemitic posts have been problematic in the past few weeks.

[treestar]

115. And no proposals for zero tolerance of anti-Arab racism either

Collective punishment against them is not somehow equated with racism against them either.

[blonndee]

64. Is this based on a current news story? n/t

[lisainmilo]

66. Use you energy wisely!

I agree with you. As this war unfolds and more truths come out peoples anger can turn ugly and that is NO EXCUSE for RACISM. The whole world is full of hate and separation right now. The whole world is a mess right now!

The anger should be at GWB and his policies (and believe me our policies have to do with this war ). His leadership has led this country into a mess, both here at home and abroad. As, Hillary Clinton said a few months ago or so, he will go down in history as the worst president ever! I can only hope that it will be repairable by incoming democratic leaders.

Lets use our energy wisely and ban together as one, towards solutions and not fall into the traps set by the powers that be. This only creates both chaos and separation....and that is their goal. If we fall into this trap ....we lose.

[beachmom]

100. You're of course right, Lisainmilo. I thought I could stop the madness

here but it's unstoppable. Sigh, sigh, sigh.

Okay, guys -- just saw the rule -- but, in my original OP I stated I was just getting back into the swing of things, so I missed it. It was an honest mistake.

[watercolors]

67. Guess I'm anti semetic then

Do not like their policy and they have broken most of UN resolutions in the past. We really should cut the purse strings!

[treestar]

125. I'm of your mind, let them call me anti-semitic then; the accusation

has been so overused that it is watered down so that I feel no worse than if some freeper called me a "brain dead liberal."

[Marr]

85. Yeah! And let's have zero-tolerance for criticism of Bush policy, too!

I fail to see the distinction between equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and equating criticism of Bush policy with anti-Americanism.

[Karenca]

114. Worth repeating

I fail to see the distinction between equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and equating criticism of Bush policy with anti-Americanism.

[GOPBasher]

95. I hate both sides.

I hate terrorists. I hate Israel's right wing regime. Both sides can kiss me where the sun don't shine. I hate them both. Here's my advice to both sides: Stop fucking killing each other, you vile fucking pieces of horseshit. There you go. Have a good day.

[Kailassa]

97. Sure, let's make the sacred cow of Israel more important than

our freedom of speech.

I've lost count of how many times I've seen people here identify themelves as supporters of Israel's present actions, label those who disagree as anti-semitic, and then go on to disparage all Palestinians ot Lebanese.

What's sauce for the one goose is sauce for them all. If anti-semitism becomes banned, I demand that anti-Australianism be banned too. I have encountered two posters here spouting anti-Australian comments, but I respected the American sanctity of free speech too highly to even report them. I have even been guilty of criticizing America on occasion, but the Americans here have taken it in their stride and left those posts untouched also.

It's not as though Jews are a defenceless group who are unable to argue their own case and speak up in their own defense, or that of Israel. It's been noted that there is at least one website that sends alerts to those who join their team when another opportunity appears to defend the name of Israel in the media or in forums.

On the other hand, how many Lebanese have we seen here able to argue their own case?
It is those who are defenceless who need to be protected.

[treestar]

103. No, because it is too broad a definition

Liberals believe in free speech, too.

I'm sick of the charge of "anti-semitism." There hasn't been a single such post on DU. Just people trying to say it is anti-semitism to criticize Israel the slightest bit. We're getting sick of it. It doesn't work anymore to stifle the debate.

Next.

[don954]

104. Zero Tolerance = Zero Thought

I thing we are all smart enough to make up our own minds without having to resort to stupid ZT rules.

[BuyingThyme]

109. After reading this thread, it seems that the poster has no evidence

to back up the conclusion. On top of that, the poster has repeatedly shown an inability or unwillingness to understand the concept of anti-semitism, or to recognize those who have clearly explained it.

Anti-kill is not anti-semitism. Pro-Lebanon is not anti-semitism. Pro-Arab is not anti-semitism. And, yes, anti-Israeli policy is not anti-semitism.

So, we're left to wonder: What is it that the poster actually has a problem with?

Now for something completely unrelated:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

117. It's due to people like you that they had to change the rules in GD.

Let me give you a couple of clues. The world is not really just shades of black and white that you see it in.

Saying that it's anti-semitic to disagree with something that Israel does makes as much sense as saying it's anti-muslim to disagree with something that Iran does.

[maddezmom]

128. locking

Please read the new posting guidelines for GD.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1809690&mesg_id=1809690