Study: Most College Students Lack Skills

[barb162]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/19/D8F7UO204.html

Study: Most College Students Lack Skills
Jan 19 2:43 PM US/Eastern

By BEN FELLER
AP Education Writer


WASHINGTON


Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food.

Those are the sobering findings of a study of literacy on college campuses, the first to target the skills of students as they approach the start of their careers.

More than 50 percent of students at four-year schools and more than 75 percent at two-year colleges lacked the skills to perform complex literacy tasks.

That means they could not interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.

snip

[slackmaster]

1. This is supposed to be news?

:freak:

[barb162]

3. Have you noticed it getting steadily worse?

I have

[slackmaster]

30. Kids always seem to get dumber and younger as time goes by

I can't be sure how much of the observed effect is the result of me getting older.

[mwb970]

34. I started noticing it in the 70s.

I remember asking my parents back then, "Do people seem to be getting stupider?" Because they sure did to me. It has just gotten worse and worse ever since. The culture is coarse and the people are stupid. Now we have the government they deserve.

[barb162]

40. I started noticing things such as teacher's notes with errors.

How did that person get to be a teacher? I started noticing that kids from highly rated high schools can't tell you where certain countries are or they don't know multiplication tables (3rd grade stuff). When I was in school, teachers actually gave failing grades and kids had to go summer school. Now it seems just about everyone is on the honor roll, there's a lot of grade inflation but the kids can't write a paragraph without multiple errors.

[tenshi816]

93. Doesn't it also drive you crazy

that it seems a lot of newer teachers either don't know how to punctuate themselves, so they're ill-equipped to teach their students how. I won't even get started on the ones who don't know the difference between "it's" and "its", and the like, or I'd rant for ages.

I agree with you about the multiplication tables. The thing is, back when I was in school we weren't allowed to use calculators, not in class or in exams, so we had to learn the basics. We didn't have the luxury of having a calculator do our work for us. I hated it at the time but, looking back, know that it was better for me.

In 2000, I started a new BSc a a university here in England. There were a fair few parts of the course that required mathematical calculations and I quickly discovered that I was one of the few people on the course who could calculate things in my head. All the young ones pulled out their calculators whenever a question was asked, no matter how simple. Some of them couldn't even do long division or work with fractions without a calculator, and I specifically remember one girl who didn't know what a common denominator was, let alone how to find one.

Another time I was proofreading a report written by a young classmate of mine. It was two pages, single-spaced, with multiple misspellings, no capital letters and no paragraph breaks. Not a one.

[barb162]

142. None of what you write here surprises me.

I personally know three or four actively teaching grammar school teachers. They write simple sentences only and there are multiple errors in everything they write. And it drives me nuts when two of them say things such as "he don't" fairly often. It tells me they are bad teachers, that the school district isn't screening the teachers and perhaps they are just as stupid, the kids can't be learning and the colleges are graduating semi-literates. How can the kid learn the diff between "too" and "to" when the idiot adult in the front doesn't know it. How can a kid learn spelling when the teacher can't spell or learn math when the teacher doesn't know basic math?

Does it make you wonder how your classmate got into the school? I wonder if the grade the classmate got was a "B" as that seems to be a popular grade these days.

[Rex]

2. Yup

Read a chart? Why do that when a PC can explain it to you?

[Angry Girl]

4. Don't the cash registers at McDonalds come with pictures of the food

instead of numbers?

Just the other day I bought $2.98 worth of stuff. I gave the clerk $3, who, after obvious deliberation, gave me 3 cents in change! oy

[barb162]

41. There are photos of veggies and fruits now at the grocery

checkout lines

[InsultComicDog]

75. But really...

...there are quite a selection of veggies and fruits available now that were not available in the past. I don't know what they're all called either.

Furthermore, don't you think that this feature would have been desireable if available 30 years ago? I mean, it must save in training costs, and cause less delay in checkout lines.

[barb162]

87. You have a point there. There are a lot of odd looking tubers

and other stuff that I never saw a long time ago. I asked an Asian woman what this one "thing" was a few weeks ago and I still can't pronounce it but I bought it and it was pretty good. Tasted like zucchini but it was about as big as a watermelon. What gets me is not this stuff brought in from other countries or the twenty types of lettuce and apples out there these days. When the kid at the cash register picks up a cucumber and starts flipping through the picture catalog, then I get worried. I know you know what I mean.

[InsultComicDog]

94. The way it is at the grocery store now

...if it's possible to have a number sticker on it, it alleviates any such problems.

But there are some things that just aren't suited to it. Like those green beans that are about two feet long, I don't even know what they are really called.

And some of those herbs... I recognize what some of them are but others I would have to look up.

[Gormy Cuss]

111. Those #$%*(*%) stickers!

Some of those suckers have SuperGlue-like adhesive. I realize that they speed up the item ID at checkout but they should be against the law on fruits and veggies normally consumed with the skins. :mad:

[ProfessorGAC]

121. Yeah, Why Don't They Use. . .

. . .the same sugar glue that is used to put the end cap on a cigar. It's edible, only sugar and starch, and if it can hold a cigar together, it can hold a sticker on fruit.
The Professor

[raccoon]

95. It would also help people with limited knowledge of English.

I mean, people whose first language wasn't English.

Edited for clarity.

[SmokingJacket]

5. I was shocked, SHOCKED, at how dumb college students were

when I first started teaching. Lots of very, very smart kids, but wow. WOW.

I taught at two different colleges: one public with an open enrollment, and the other a selective, expensive private school. The number of smart and dumb kids was *exactly the same* in both schools, even though one let everyone in and the other did not. The difference?

The dumb kids at the private school were RICH, and the dumb kids at the state school were not.

[Angry Girl]

6. I recently returned to school

And anything that requires thinking outside the box totally freaks them out.

Also the ability to read (and then follow the instructions) is really bad. Literacy, actually, is way down. Students stumbling over simple words as they read out loud: words like di- di- diplo- diplo-MAH-cy. Diplo-MAH-cy? A new kind of dinosaur?

Writing. Oh, the writing! Screenwriting class can get hilarious.

[SmokingJacket]

15. I taught writing.

I rememeber telling one student, "No, you see, the point is to be clear. To be understood -- to communicate!"

It was a total revelation to her! "Oh," she said. "You mean I just have to... say what I mean?"

It sounds like I'm making it up, but I promise, I'm not.

Small hilarious anecdote: a student wanted to write about prejudice, but couldn't spell it. Her spellcheck changed it to "predigest."

Now, if my eight-year-old made that mistake, I'd understand.

[CrispyQ]

19. Jay Leno had one of his 'game show' type segments one night.

The 'contestents' had to answer questions. The two I remember are:


Q. Who was Bush I's vice president?
A. Bush II?


Q. Where is Vermont?
A. Canada


Gasp!

[barb162]

84. Every time he runs that segment, I gasp too.

It really is shocking. Hey, Vermont, Venezuela, Victoria, Canada, what's the diff, they're all in the same hemisphere and they all begin with the same letter. Hemisphere? What's a hemisphere?

I remember one time he asked: the earth rotates around what object and instead of saying the sun, the person said Venus or something really weird. Then he asked who wrote the Gettysburg Address and the person was dumbfounded. Oh, he asked about 1776 and the person had no clue what that date meant in our country's history. And another time he asked where was Mexico. The person didn't know. Then Leno said it's on a border of the US and the person still didn't know where it was.

[Bill McBlueState]

99. but remember

If they interview 100 people, you're not going to see the 90 clips of people who have a clue.

Still, it's amazing that anyone could be as dense as some of these people.

[mwb970]

107. Actually, Leno sometimes says that they are using everything.

I've heard him say before a Jaywalking segment, "You probably think we are picking out the stupid people, but no, this is everything usable that we got". Who knows?

[Colorado Blue]

134. The tube? Modern communications are awesome but they

actually have harmful aspects, I think. Who reads? Or learns to make things? People aren't taught to be creative, they're taught to conform and buy stuff.

[barb162]

143. He usually asks them if they went to college and it seems

they usually just graduated or are seniors. I've heard these people mention Princeton, Duke, etc., as their schools

[Yupster]

45. I taught a lesson on the first two atom bombs, and

at the end of the lesson a girl asked me if the Little Boy and the Fat Man were still alive today.

[barb162]

145. She was really paying attention, hmm?

[barb162]

83. ohmygod

I believe you. Anecdotal things like that are precious and say so much. Those spellcheckers get people in trouble like crazy, especially those who don't know their synonyms. There's a lot of them out there these days (two). (bwahaha)

I wonder what happened with weekly or daily spelling bees and those other quaint teaching techniques that helped kids learn spelling. When you stand in front of an audience and you screw up, you will remember how to spell the word after that with no problem.

[raccoon]

97. You got that right,

"Those spellcheckers get people in trouble like crazy, especially those who don't know their synonyms. "

And you can see this sort of thing in the fricking local newspaper, and also in hardcover books, where somebody left in the wrong word which might sound like the right word.

In this day and time, with the unemployment as bad as it is, why can't newspapers and book publishers find proofreaders/editors with English skills? Who won't assume that spellcheck knows best?

[Bill McBlueState]

98. I can maybe see where she's coming from

My recollection of high school English classes is that there's a heavy focus on "tricks" to help students write well.

*Vary your sentence beginnings.
*Essays should be XX paragraphs long.
*Don't end a sentence with a preposition.

None of these are bad pieces of advice, but I could see how they'd lead students to focus on following all the rules at the expense of writing clearly.

[mwb970]

103. The way to learn to write well is to read a lot.

Today's students tend to avoid reading anything whatsoever if possible, preferring to look at pictures. Of course they can't write. When you write, you are imitating what you have read. They haven't read anything.

[barb162]

42. That is what I am seeing. Simple grammar school stuff

and it is not being mastered

[neoblues]

60. Between TV (180Channels), IM, Blogging, Video Games...

It'd be a wonder they have time to read anything or do much thinking beyond chatting and finding ways to beat the games.

[MrBadExample]

91. I went back to school last year myself.

The contrast between this time and the last time I went to school is appalling. It's not just the basics, either--last year, I kept running across students in third-year linguistics courses who didn't know the difference between a direct object and an indirect object. Just today, an entire second-year anthropology class had to have "ethnocentrism" explained and spelled for them.

The one good thing about all this is that it's been really, really easy to keep up my straight A average. :eyes:

[Ladyhawk]

119. When I was in school, the curriculum was demanding, not just in college,

but in grammar school and high school as well. I admit I probably need a geography and mathematics refresh course, but I can still remember the important things. :shrug: When I read the forums I mentally correct grammar and spelling errors so that they aren't incorporated into my idea of "acceptable" communication. ;)

[progressivebydesign]

140. My screenwriting classes in college were always a hoot!

You have never really lived until you read 90% of the screenplays written by 18 year old males...

[fishwax]

31. I had the exact opposite experience

I was really surprised by how intelligent and how engaged my students were when I recently started teaching at a large, public university. I was surprised and impressed at their ability to think their way through arguments, and the level of media literacy was especially pleasing :)

[SmokingJacket]

32. Don't get me wrong; there were plenty of smart kids too.

And just as many at the public school as at the private.

But I did find that there were a bunch of kids who had never done *any* work, ever -- never read a book, never wanted to -- but had made it into college, because that's what's done and because mom and dad paid good money for it.

[fishwax]

37. i was really expecting that

but I guess I got lucky. It might have helped that my class was almost exclusively seniors, so many of the total slackers had been weeded out. There were a couple who were quite practiced at getting over, but they were, by far, the exception for me. I'm hoping that experience continues, but I still worry it was something of an anomaly. :)

[kath]

47. Could they write even a coherent paragraph, much less an essay?

A friend's hubby was a TA at a state university here, and he was absolutely appalled at the students' writing skills.

[fishwax]

48. absolutely

generally speaking, their writing skills hadn't caught up with their thinking/reasoning, but as the semester went on they did, as a general rule, a good job of closing that gap. Some of my colleagues haven't been as impressed by their students, but my experience with them was certainly positive.

[barb162]

43. I saw a woman on a TV show recently who mentioned she was

buying a novel and hat she had never read one before. She appeared about 40. The interviewer was looking at her as if she was from outer space and then started questioning her. The woman basically said she never had to read a novel in any of her schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Thank you

These threads just denigrate education and feed the voucher movement.

[barb162]

70. This thread is about the problems in education and why

we can't seem to straighten it out. The last thing we need is a voucher movement. What we need is overall general excellence in education in public schools. What we are doing is graduating a lot of kids who can't write, can't comprehend what they read, can't do math, etc., but they're on the damned honor roll. Something is basically wrong and it appears to be worsening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. But all this schools are bad talk

just gives ammunition to the voucher movement.

[barb162]

80. So do we just sweep the problems under the rug and keep letting

the situation deteriorate or do we openly discuss the real problems and fix them. I will tell you, I think the situation is deplorable. You have read some or all of these posts and you see people mentioning things like kids getting Bs without opening a book or going to class, kids who seemingly get through 12 years of school without failing anything, yet they have only basic math or language skills, if that, etc. Ask a sixteen year old kid today where Argentina is and they're likely to tell you it's in the southwest USA, mistaking it for Arizona.

Asia is going to eat our lunch.

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. No we learn to assess the kids right

and we shape our curriculum to match the skills kids need for success in the 21st century.

All this schools are bad talk accomplishes nothing. If public education is destroyed in this country, it won't be because the kids weren't learning. It will be because schools were starved into an inffective state. And vouchers will do that.

[StellaBlue]

96. Protesting the administration hurts the troops!!!!! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

153. Now there's a valid comparison

:sarcasm:

[Colorado Blue]

135. Respectfully, I think it actually gives ammunition to those of

us who believe in funding and increased attention and respect for, the public school system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. Oh I wish you were in the majority

but sadly you are not. NCLB is a legal way to stop funding public education.

[Colorado Blue]

162. I've heard a lot about NCLB and it doesn't sound like it helps

much and in fact, might actually inhibit good, creative teachers.

I think we need to get beyond the idea that a nation this size can standardize everything. So now I'm sounding like a state's righter, LOL!

But test scores alone don't indicate quality of education. People can train for tests and still not really learn anything.

I think it's time for more local input and control?

[proud2BlibKansan]

165. Yes it is but there isn't always enough money locally

so while I abhor national standards, I think we need federal dollars.

[Colorado Blue]

166. I agree on both counts. Otherwise money and decent

facilities are focused in only a few communities.

But we need to encourage creativity and individual initiative, not tie up those dollars in so much red tape and bureaucratic control they do more harm than good.

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. We need to reduce the amount going to the feds

and keep those tax dollars at the local level.

[raccoon]

101. Maybe not much is expected of them? nt

[barb162]

146. Not much is expected of the teachers or the students

and it shows. Excellence? What's that? Pass 'em through.

[Occulus]

132. Mom and Dad throwing fits at teachers

when they don't pass the kids really doesn't help too much, though. I wonder how much that really goes on- how many calls from angry parents teachers really get, where they have to try to explain to the parents that no, their perfect little kids aren't so perfect in school.

I wonder how many teachers either cave and raise the grade or just simplify things so kids who really are dumb as rocks still get on the honor roll. And, before anyone jumps on me, I've been out of school for twelve years and it was actually like that to an extent back then.

WTF is going on with our schools? It's as if someone's intentionally trying to destroy them somehow.... :freak:

[barb162]

147. I think the teachers do cave because that's the

only thing that explains the grade inflation. Who is giving out all the high grades across the country? The teachers

It keeps the parents and kids happy, except they are all fooling themselves.

You do a great assessment: "WTF is going on with our schools? It's as if someone's intentionally trying to destroy them somehow"

[Porcupine]

82. You must teach a course that is not required for GE

Because there are some real dummies here at Party State University. I mean fish have more sense than these kids.

[barb162]

85. glub, glub, glub, glub, gulp

That's my imitation of a fish as I get sillier

[fishwax]

90. Yes, it's a GE course

it is one of several options (the most popular of several options) for fulfilling an advanced composition requirement.

I almost wound up at Party State University (though perhaps not the same PSU) instead, though, so who knows what would my students would have been like then ;)

[Colorado Blue]

133. Yeah. Big surprise. But, I've actually been arguing about

this on LU with conservatives, and the importance of funding for education, and one guy actually said, people are poor because they live in bad neighborhoods where people behave badly, which is why they're poor, and this results in bad schools.

[WI_DEM]

7. I think it's getting worse

and it was pretty bad when I was in college! As far as handling money and credit card offers they aren't alone.

[barb162]

44. I think it's getting a lot worse.

Far higher numbers of functional illiterates are coming out of schools

[Yupster]

62. I taught for ten years

from the 80's to the 90's and even in that relatively bried time there was a real lowering of the quality of the students and the school.

The biggest difference was discipline. Students my last year showed much less respect for their teachers, their elders, their fellow students than they did when I first started.

Teachers tell me things have continued to get much worse.

Where are the causes?

Broken families I guess would be the number one explanation.

[barb162]

66. I was reading an article in my local paper about this subject

and the kids going into college were surprised they had to take remedial math and other courses. They were B students and at so-called good schools. But they were saying things such as "He don't..." in the article.

I have seen the sassing and lack of respect in kids these days. It's shocking. I have no idea what is up with the parents and I wonder if they think they are good parents. Some of the things I have seen in my neighborhood where a parent just looks at their kid doing something wrong would have earned some real discipline a while back.

[raccoon]

102. And the kids know they can get away with more. nt

[Bill McBlueState]

112. another explanation

I agree that kids who come from families where education is valued will take school more seriously. But families today are facing so many problems in the Bush economy that it's hard for me to place too much of the blame on parents.

I'm more inclined to look at messages from our political and popular culture, where from the President on downward, regular people get the message that having stuff is way more important than knowing stuff. An excessive cultural focus on faith (religious and otherwise) instead of reason is also a problem.

How do you change the culture? I don't know. But Europe and Asia are going to be kicking our asses all over the place if these trends continue.

[Colorado Blue]

136. Parents working too hard? Even in families with two parents,

it's awfully hard to make a living. Broken homes? Maybe. But I came from one and scored in the top 99.999 percentile on the SATS.

Education has to be a value, a culturally respected value. And America has a deep distrust of intellectual accomplishment.

Worse, all but a few jobs reward conformity. Creativity and independent thinking are actually red flags for many employers.

It's called, I believe, being overqualified.

So we have Ph.D.'s driving cabs and universities, to save money - often on benefits - hiring only part-timers who can barely make ends meet.

I have a friend who works as a substitute teacher here in a huge city. She's so poor she ofen has to rely on the Jewish community for food. She's a bright, loving, gifted woman.

[barb162]

150. I have a very smart friend with a PhD in Linguistics and she has

been teaching part-time for years. She got that degree just about the time the universities started realizing they could save a lot of money by not hiring full-timers, not giving benefits and eventually providing tenure. She is so damned smart and she will never have a full-time teaching job gaining tenure. She is teaching now simultaneously at three different schools part-time. (I told her to get some education credits under her belt and apply to be a grammar school teacher, but make sure to do a few grammar and spelling errors in her CV and cover letter. Then they will know she won't outshine them. I does linguistics. I teached....)

[InsultComicDog]

78. About the credit cards

...I don't think we had any more knowledge of credit when I was in college...hell, probably a lot less.

What we *didn't* have was as many vultures making it so easy to get credit.

And, we didn't have the new ridiculous bankruptcy law

[Nutmegger]

8. I attend a university and let me tell you this

it has gotten worse. I cannot count how many times students complain about this essay or reading from a book. For god sakes it's reading!!!!! I had a hard time finding my niche! Thank god for the campus "nerds".

A growing fad at my school: blaring iPods in the classroom. It's becoming almost as bad a cell phones.

Maybe it's because mommy and daddy are not sending me off to school; maybe it's because I'm in serious debt and rising tuition is affecting me so I'm trying to finish up my last year. I don't know.

[Ron Green]

9. Dude! I was like . . . you know, that f*****n' degree plan . . . I mean,

n/t

[CrispyQ]

14. I would be

:rofl: if that statement weren't so damned :cry:


When we lose the ability to articulate our thoughts, we lose the ability to come up with new ideas. America is going backwards & most people are oblivious to it. They bang their fists on their chests & screech "we're number one," never recognizing what made us number one was hard work & innovation, not kicking everyone in the ass. We've become a nation of uneducated, arrogant bullies. Well, the bigger you are, the harder you fall.

[barb162]

46. Bwaha (I am actually crying)

[skids]

10. Then why can't I get a job?!?!?

Lately every time I see an article saying how dumb Americans are, I ask myself this question: how come most of those very same morons have jobs, and I don't -- even with a great resume and more solid references than I could fit in my house for a BBQ (though it doesn't seem to matter, because they never get called).

Is it because articles like this are bullshit, or is it because most of the people on the hiring committee couldn't balance a checkbook or compare the cost per ounce of food?

Enquiring minds (that can balance a checkbook) want to know.

[thinkingwoman]

12. are you looking for a job in retail?

or another service industry? Because that's where the jobs are and they don't pay much.

If you want something else, it doesn't matter how fat your resume is.

[CrispyQ]

20. Honestly,

getting a good job is 98% networking. Really it is. I've worked with executives & HR departments for a long time & it is true.

Also, job interviews are bullshit. You have just a few minutes to make a good impression. Well, hell, some people, who are great workers & great to work with, simply do not come across great in just a few minutes.

Have you considered checking with a temp agency? I've found my best full-time permanent jobs via an agency.

Good luck with your search.

[skids]

24. All the temp agencies and headhunters...

...seem to be under the misimpression that Worcester is in Western Massachusetts, and that the only thing past Rt 291 is a big reservoir and some woodlands. They're utterly and astoundingly useless. Even the ones in CT. I know there are more jobs available in metro areas, but not one of them has gotten me an interview out where I live -- they completely ignore the market, which, as absolutely miserable as it is, does in fact kick out a position now and then.

If the employer even bothers to acknowlege they received my resume, I can usually get an interview at those, but then even if they do hire someone else they won't let you know unless you pester them really, really hard. And forget about a nice "sorry, you're qualified but" letter to stuff in your files... nothing. Dealing with them is like praying to a stone statue. There's a total lack of common protocol/decency these days on the part of employers. America has forgotten how to hire.

If I have to move to some Eastern MA craphole of a town, I'm going to be really, really pissed about it. But savings won't last forever.

[CrispyQ]

116. I certainly agree with this statement:

"There's a total lack of common protocol/decency these days on the part of employers." I remember when you would get a postcard just for sending your resume in. Then if you got an interview, you always got a call or letter letting you know that you didn't get the job. Like you said, now, you take your time to go for an interview & more likely than not you'll never hear from them again. I think it's rude & very unprofessional. I've been fortunate to work for companies or hiring managers that don't do that.

Sorry about the state of your local temp agencies. Again, good luck with your search!

[raccoon]

108. That has been my experience/observation too.

"getting a good job is 98% networking. "

If you want a good job (meaning, even remotely decent pay and (gasp) benefits), you have to have the connections. If you don't, there's someone else out there who does.

And in many workplaces when a good job is advertised, they already know who's lined up to fill the position, they just advertise because of legal issues.

[TheFarseer]

129. Yes, Job interviews are bullshit

they already know when you come in if they are going to hire you. If you are the chosen one, all you have to do is not set the interviewer on fire. If you are not the chosen one, you *might* get the job if the people they want don't take the job and they get desperate. Otherwise, you can't do or say anything to get hired. Unfortunately, I think the only chance most people have these days is with a temp agency and pray to get hired on full time.

[barb162]

49. They know you will get their jobs; it's as simple as that

[skids]

54. Heheh.

But I don't WANT to be a manager. (I've had to say that once actually.)

[barb162]

58. I went through that. This one place gave IQ tests and I scored

the highest in their history. So they had me retake it and then I scored even higher. Then they told me I was too overqualified to work there, that I wouldn't be happy there, the old blabbing BS. A lot of these people know you will outshine them and they just don't want you around. It's a sick commentary on the average workplace these days.

[TheFarseer]

130. I once took a job placement test at a temp agency

it was the accounts payable test. It was pretty basic. Anyone that had ever worked in AP or taken an accounting systems class would blow it away. When they scored it the lady says, "Wow, no one has ever passed this before." I was like, you gotta be friggin kidding me! The people I'm competing against in the job market are this fucking stupid and I still can't find a decent job!

[Colorado Blue]

137. LOL! Do I know the feeling. Please see #136:)

[raccoon]

110. Right on, Barb! nt

[barb162]

149. I'm serious; they know.

They probably got hired because they had something on someone inside the company or they were a relative. I just talked to a friend recently who told me of a woman who got fired from her job after 9.5 years and great reviews. Seems she went to HR complaining about incompetence of a new hire and little did she or anyone else know the new hire was a relative of the owner.

There are so many incompetents in the workplace. The last thing they want is for a new person to show their stuff because then they will be out the door. The incompetents are usually blessed with an exquisite sense of hair standing up on the back of their necks when a smart person walks in the door. That brain stem of theirs is still working marvelously well.

[Yupster]

63. Come to the oil patch

They're screaming for workers. Holding job fairs hundreds of miles away to get anyone they can.

[raccoon]

104. Are you over 40? If so that's a big strike against you. nt

[skids]

123. Nope. And I do have quite an extensive "network."

...they just don't seem to be very mindful/useful, except for a few of my closest former cooworkers.

One of my managers from a long time ago is over 40, and has been looking longer than I, and is in a much better area, though, so I know what you mean. We hike together every once in a while and gripe about the state of the workplace. He knows tons of competant out of work people, and can say with authority and much experience that these days, the ones in our industry who are keeping their jobs are the total boobs.

[neoblues]

11. Imagine those without even that much education...

I wonder how much worse it might be for those with only a High School Diploma, or perhaps those who've dropped out without even that.

So our educational system is in trouble, and that's even before the deleterious effects of Bush's "No Child Left Behind" (why does that remind me of the Christian book series "Left Behind"), have had a chance to further damage our future.

I know that my own estimation, upon reflection from adulthood, of my own school teachers--throughout my school years (including state university), is rather low. I'm amazed I learned anything or tolerated the experience; I could've covered two or three times the information and even spent quality time developing critical thinking skills as was covered... so much of what was covered was done redundantly and in an extraordinarily tedious/boring and slow way, it's almost depressing. Many student I knew just couldn't stand the monotony. Most of the teachers themselves suffered from some notion that they deserved respect despite acting like minature dictators with insufficient grasp of their own subjects that they could scarcely give a straight answer to questions (which, before long, resulted in students not even bothering to ask questions). I'm sure, though, that there are a great many different and widely varying levels of quality among the public (and private) schools, and I'm referring to a small town school decades ago.

No doubt though, the problem is deeper than just the schools. Something is missing in our society, too many young people (actually, it's not specific to young people either) are withdrawn, uninvolved and seeking nothing more than to just 'get by'. Opportunity, a magic word, seems less common than ever. Even in 'good jobs', often the company isn't interested in the potentially wide range of skills and contributions an individual might make, but rather just wants them to perform their narrow job description (don't bother us with your bright ideas unless you have advanced education and years of experience in the particular arena because otherwise, you can't possibly contribute anything of value). If that has anything to do with it, it's but one small part of a larger whole. Why does this malaise and indifference exist? Why are only the few, highly self-motivated individuals given incentives--when it's those who aren't motivated that need to feel involved and who represents the great untapped reservoir of potential?

Perhaps it's a consequence of a society in which we are inundated and overwhelmed with information, constant change, sophisticated technology and no guidance other than what we can come up with for ourselves. In a world with so many billions of people, political instability with unwise or even insane leaders causing wars and wholesale strife. In a country in which we don't even care for the soldiers who've given their lives and/or much of their futures doing their duties, and in which all our futures have been mortgaged to provide greater wealth to the wealthy and greater profits to corporations, and in which we've dismantled much of our protections on the environment showing no concern for the future and future generations... perhaps people are just overwhelmed. Being overwhelmed tends to diminish motivation, reduce studying for students, and necessarily leave people focusing on merely surviving. No wonder then that students aren't as accomplished as we would hope; indeed nothing is going as well as we would hope. Hopelessness and fear abound, opening opportunities for those who would seek to subjugate others--the very people who make things worse. It's small wonder if there's a resurgence of people turning to Religion for guidance, meaning and a sense of belonging.

Times like these call for leadership. Instead we get Bush. We need change, but only wise, progressive change. Alas we get change, but it's misguided, deceptive and harmful for the majority. Indeed, if we can't have healthy change, we need to avoid change entirely. If we could but restore the world to the point before the worst of the changes we've seen, to the year 2000 (pre-Bush jr.). Alas. We are where we are and we're still badly off course. Until we resove and correct the current insanity, fewer and fewer people are going to retain their ability to think rationally--as though we were all being either driven mad or enduring increased brain damage. Stress inhibits effective reasoning.

This has all been somewhat confused conjecture in it's own right. Sorry, perhaps when the world has returned to it's senses, so will I. Till then, we still must search our imaginations for solutions. Some are more obvious than others; for instance, making an effective challenge, in every Congressional race in the nation, on behalf of Democrats this year and consequently winning back more seats than anyone expects would be the ideal first step in stopping the madness.

[Bill McBlueState]

114. nice post

and welcome to DU.

This is a keeper: "Times like these call for leadership. Instead we get Bush."

[otohara]

13. My Son's Freshman Friends Brag - Get B's w/o Attending Class or Opening

text books.

[barb162]

61. I wonder if their parents are ever questioning those kids

or the teachers. That is a sick story but I think it is fairly common. I notice the kids in my neighborhood don't seem to have too much homework judging from how many of them are out really late. But the school is highly rated according to the state test scores. I think they are dumbing-down the tests everywhere.

[otohara]

127. CU Sent Out Letters to Freshman Parents - Expect Low Grades!!!!

after all they are freshmen and are just getting accustomed to the "college" way.

I've asked friends who have kids in other universities and private colleges, if they've ever received such a letter and all said no.

My son attends private college and I would be pretty pissed if I received such a letter considering the tuition costs. I'd be pissed if he were a CU student. Lowering expectations right off the bat.

[Yupster]

64. You can add grade inflation

to the list of problems schools are currently suffering under.

In our school district about 70 % of the numerical grades given are 90 and up.

So how is a parent to have any idea of how well their kid is doing? Colleges have the same problem.

[barb162]

77. My area runs around 70% too for 90 and up.

and the parents ride around in their SUVs with the bumper stickers that read "My daughter is on the honor roll at_____" and I will ask these kids basic questions every so often and they know diddly-doo.

Did you ever see the Jay Leno Show where he asks questions to the people on the street such as in what century was World War II ( and the dip will say I don't know)or how many moons does the earth have ( and the dip will ask five?) or who was the last Democratic Prez (and the dip will answer Lincoln?). And Leno will ask what college they attended. And they are always college grads, some being from some fairly impressive, pricey schools.

[CrispyQ]

16. I swear, my mid-70's high school education

was better than many of today's college programs.

[barb162]

79. Same here.

I think a while back that the requirements to graduate were tougher too. In my district currently I think they only require two years of English, two years of Math, etc. I think when I was in high school there was a four year English and three year Math requirement, along with a long list of History, Geography, foreign language, etc. requirements. I know kids in my district are good at archery, swimming, at getting in touch with their inner selves and Self-Esteem 101, but I think they have no foreign language or other requirements that were common when I was in high school.

[NashVegas]

17. But They Can All Make Cool Web Pages

And multi-task while they operate iPods & Blackberries, so who cares?

[Deja Q]

21. Reality check:

Point 1 requires some logic... points 2 and 3 are for the indolent.

Especially for large websites; having a properly mapped layout (that our kiddies wouldn't have the faintest notion of) and menu structure is essential.

Sadly, more and more software is being made for "ease of use". Companies and governments do not want people coding custom applications. They want out-of-the-box fluff that doesn't need to be supported. That costs less and it's never personal, it's just about money.

We're either dumbing down our young because peak oil is nigh and they need to be expendable and it's currently more fun to insult our own while we offshore, which in turn allows the foreigners to insult us to boot (which should be seen as an act of aggression and not condoned)... or corporations prefer ramming down every want down our throats because they can't survive without big profits every quarter (another impossibility when peak oil is confirmed).

And who needs an ipod when a multi-use PDA is more handy? And ultimately less expensive when you compare what an ipod will do compared to what a PDA will do?

[eppur_se_muova]

25. Um, reality check? Did your sarcasm alert fail to trigger?

[NashVegas]

27. It's Not So Much That We're Dumbing Them Down

It's that we're specializing (over-specializing) education. Concentrating studies on subjects where a good half or more could be learned on the job, at the expense of the traditional big majors - liberal arts, history, economics, etc.

[fishwax]

33. streamlined education

i can agree with that argument.

I actually think (based on my professional interaction with college students, particularly those nearing graduation) that it isn't as bad as it is often made out to be.

But even so, I agree with your argument about the liberal arts vs what has become (far too exclusively) a professional (so-called "practical") training.

[TheFarseer]

131. That's true in alot of ways

but we're encouraging it too. A college diploma is worth jack-shit as far as I can see. I have a job that I sure as hell wouldn't have needed to go to college for, but I can't do any better than this. In my job market, it appears that all you need is experience with the right software. Never mind that I would be able to learn that software in a couple of days and that anyone listing that software on their resume could be embellishing on the time they saw SAP in a box at the store. If I would have went to tech school to learn how fix air-conditioners or whatever, I wouldn't have a well rounded education at all, but I would probably be money ahead.

[barb162]

68. I think we are

"dumbing down our young because peak oil is nigh and they need to be expendable..." but I don't think it is fun to insult our own. I would like to se this lousy situation rectified because if it isn't, we are really going to go downhill fast. One word: Asia

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. And we all know those kinds of skills are not important at all nowadays

:sarcasm:

[Deja Q]

18. !!!

I can compare the cost per ounce. A child should be able to do that.

As for credit cards; those vultures circle in to high schoolers. That comparison is not entirely fair.

And shouldn't high schools be teaching basic home ec maths; how to balance a checkbook?

I dunno if the article is meant to show a crisis, condone offshoring, or both.

Or maybe that's why the draft age is being ramped to 39; these same dum-dums in college wouldn't know how to load their guns?

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Yes high school students are taught to balance a checkbook

The trick is - they have to pay attention in class.

[Yupster]

65. That kind of practical stuff

is being stressed far more today than it was in the past.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. But, but, but

schools are baaaad. Kids are not learning!
:sarcasm:

[Yupster]

86. It is being taught, but

it's not being learned.

Something is wrong.

We have more disciplinary remedies than we used to have before, we have drugs to calm down the most active boys, and yet discipline is way worse than it was 30 years ago.

There's something going on and it isn't good.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. The problems are in our society

These are community problems. Schools cannot solve them alone. We must address kids being deprived of families, kids being neglected, kids without health care, kids with parents who are so busy surviving they have no time to parent. Uneducated parents raise kids who don't learn to respect and appreciate education.

I think a good place to start is to make kids stay in school until they are 18 or finish 12th grade. Allowing them to drop out at 16 is crazy. They are doomed to a life of poverty and a lack of opportunities when they walk away from school without a diploma. Why do we allow this? I have never understood.
:shrug:

[seabeyond]

22. my kids count change, calculate tax on product

talk about the bills paid in this house after my ten yr old said i got 100 a week.... like that was a lot of money. as a family we will educate. why parents arent doing this as children grow only leaves me to wonder. next week i will have kids fill out their deposit slip to put christmas checks in the bank and let them walk to the teller. all these are fun. kids love learning this stuff.

that is my kids

on the other hand, we run a computer business, lots of youth and i agree with what this article is saying.

[barb162]

88. You're a really good parent

You are teaching those kids daily how to get along in life and how to be well-functioning and responsible adults. A lot of parents don't get that at all.

[eppur_se_muova]

23. Intro science classes have to teach students how to use a CALCULATOR. nt

[alarimer]

35. now kids can use calculators in math class

I never could until I got to more advanced calculus.

[TimeChaser]

73. What kind of calculator?

I had to teach my sister how to use her new graphing calculator.

[eppur_se_muova]

76. One with memory.

They don't know how to store results and re-use them. They'll carry out part of a calculation and write down the result on paper. Then in the next step of the calculation they'll punch in the same number (minus some rounding error).

Makes me wanna say oy -- I'm not even Jewish, but I really need the expression.

[Hippo_Tron]

89. Honestly, it's understandable that they have to be taught

It's not incredibly difficult to use a sophisticated calculator, but some first time instruction doesn't hurt. Plus the way that the thinking process works with some science problems I can understand the reluctance to use the store function, even though it will produce more accurate results.

[eppur_se_muova]

167. *sophisticated* calculator?

Who hasn't used a calculator with a (single!) memory register by the time they enter college?

It's not really about the calculators anyway--it's about the fact that these kids don't know how to handle numbers at all. When I was an undergraduate, calculators were NOT allowed on exams, and the exams were written so that they weren't needed, assuming you could do a little simple arithmetic. Now the students are so dependent on them, they don't even know how to tell when the answers are way, way off from any reasonably expected value.

[Hippo_Tron]

168. Oh, college, I thought you meant high school

That's a little different.

But as far as needing them vs. not needing them, teachers are starting to introduce problems that require them more and more it seems like. At least that's my experience.

[eppur_se_muova]

170. Ah, confusion explained. I'd agree in case of high school kids. nt

[chat_noir]

26. this used to be the English grammar teaching tool in grade school

http://www.geocities.com/fifth_grade_tpes/diagram.html

Every sentence is made up of a subject and a predicate, right? Well, when you diagram a sentence, the first thing you do is draw a picture with one main line that represents the sentence. Now, split it in two. One half is for the subject and one half is for the predicate. Here are examples of simple sentences:



More...what are they?




To learn what a preposition is: what can a mouse do to/with a barn:

Go under
Go around
etc

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Lots of research on diagramming sentences

shows it to be an ineffective way to master our English language. That's why it isn't taught anymore.

[CrispyQ]

118. Well, whatever they're doing now is ineffective, too.

Personally, I learned from sentence diagramming. However, I learned the most about English by reading -- and I don't mean little snippets like email & text messaging.

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. And you know this because?

I love you school critics. You are just sure that what we are doing is not working yet I have the feeling you couldn't do my job for an hour without losing your mind.

[nemo137]

67. God, we did that until 7th grade

Between that and learning sentence patters, I actually know how to write now.

(Here's hoping that I didn't miss some grammar mistake in that post.)

[Toots]

28. "showing about one in 20 adults is not literate in English."

Interesting stat I thought.

[Ron Green]

29. It's a post-literate world. Print had a good run, about 500 years, but

now we're moving back into an iconographic system. I think the main problem with this is the death of context. Meaning is becoming more a string of discrete images, and without the narrative of text we're increasingly trapped in an eternal Present, and not a good one like the Buddha recommends.

[raccoon]

113. Great post. Reminds me of the Middle Ages,

when few were literate and you knew whose side a knight was on by his coat of arms.

Same as recognizing corporate logos nowadays.

[depakid]

36. No surprise for me

When I went back to grad school after 18 years, the students in my program hadn't even mastered basic statistics- not even the concepts- and were remarkably uninformed about anything outside their narrow fields.

Quite the contrast that with the early 80's. Shows you what 25 years of Republican divestmentm de-funding and attacks on education will do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Verbal fluency and range of expression have deteriorated

About twenty years ago, the Minneapolis Star-Tribune revived an old feature called Junior Journal, in which chlidren and teens were asked to write brief essays on various topics. They asked the 1980s kids some of the same questions ("Who is your best friend, and why?" "What is your fondest memory?" etc.) that were posed to the early 1900s kids and printed both sets of responses.

The results were embarrassing. The kids from 80 years earlier had larger vocabularies and wrote in more complex sentences. In general, they were two years ahead of the 1980s kids, so that the fifth graders from 1900 wrote at the same level as seventh graders from the 1980s. The high school seniors from 1900 wrote essays that any adult would be proud to claim.

Some may say that the decline in verbal skills is due to the influx of immigrants into today's public school systems, but in fact, in 1900, people with last names like Olson, Schmidt, Cohen, and Giannini could easily have been recent immigrants whose parents didn't speak English. (Minneapolis had large German and Scandinavian immigrant neighborhoods in 1900, and it was also the high point of Jewish and Italian immigration.)

I've even seen dumbing down in extracurricular materials. When I read Junior Scholastic in sixth grade, it was a serious news magazine, explaining things like the Common Market (the precursor of the European Union) and the Cuban missile crisis, in simple terms, to be sure, but with the assumption that sixth graders were owed an explanation of these phenomena. Fast forward nearly forty years to a school program for street kids where I did some tutoring. The alternative school had a subscription to Junior Scholastic, and not only were its pages filled with the type of material usually found in commercial teen magazines but the typeface was also large and the vocabulary and sentence structures were simple.

Or let's go back even farther. When my mother was in fourth grade (1930), she attended a school district that required students to buy their textbooks. She still has her fourth grade reader, and if you can imagine, it has excerpts from Gulliver's Travels and Black Beauty, only lightly edited, as well as the complete text of John Ruskin's King of the Golden River and half a dozen poems by well-known poets.

I blame parents for the decline in literacy. It was in the mid 1960s that parents began giving in to the natural desire of young people to get by as easily as possible. It was the era when parents stopped reinforcing school behavioral standards and instead complaining that the mean old teacher was picking on their little angel. It was the era when parents began echoing their children's demands for easier and "more interesting" curricula. By the time my youngest brother graduated from high school (1973), it was possible for students in our district to substitute filmmaking for senior English.

The students from that era are parents, or even grandparents now, and never having had a rigorous English curriculum themselves, they don't know how to demand it for their children.

During the eleven years that I taught on the college level, it was discouraging to see obviously bright students who could barely put two sentences together or who claimed that they hated to read or who felt that they had to hide their reading habit from their peers.

[barb162]

55. You are so right

I have seen the same things you have seen. It's the teachers and the parents and I think the whole system. I think there's a general degradation in learning and it is getting worse yearly. They dumb downed the SATs for a lower curve to account for that twice now in about the last twenty years.
I had a freshman high school English teacher who had us doing about five term papers. One mistake of any kind (an extra comma, incorrect margins, typos, etc.) dropped the grade one letter. And that was before she even got to the content. If you used "ibid" or "op cit" or "loc cit" incorrectly that was a drop of one grade. For that year two kids got the highest grade of a C out of her two classes of 60 honors students. She was tough as hell but wonderful. I will never forget her. I learned a lot from her.

My nephew, who was a senior at a state university, was a pitiful writer. Spelling errors, simplistic sentence structure, etc., the list goes on and on. I was shocked as I wrote better than that in fourth grade. I went to the same school years earlier and he would not have been accepted when I was there. If he had, he would have been kicked out in the first semester.

[MissB]

56. They are serious about literacy at our school.

Literature groups start in 1st grade (Kindergarten for early readers) and continue through 8th grade. The advanced readers in the early years essentially have two literature groups to attend each week - one run by the librarian and one run by the teacher. The teachers use parent volunteers to help guide the in-class literature groups.

I'm quite amazed. I wish I would've had such a concentration on literature - I can see the benefit from a literacy standpoint. The questions that are posed to the students in the literature groups are designed to make them think beyond the book and to make connections with real life and with other books they have read.

[barb162]

57. Wonderful! So learning is actually happening somewhere.

Something that I disliked when I was a really little kid was doing book reports. I didn't realize it then that those book reports forced me to learn to read well, to think about what I read, etc. Every week or two we had to read a new book and do those book reports. It wasn't long after that, though, that I became a voracious reader and I wanted to learn, learn, learn. Learn everything, stay up late reading until I literally couldn't keep my eyes open anymore, etc., to the point my mom said to quit it already (then she'd buy more books for me)

Do the kids seem to enjoy these sessions?

[MissB]

59. Most of them seem to enjoy the literature groups.

I should do the standard disclaimer here- it is a small school with small classes and the median income in the neighborhood is outrageously high. The kids basically come to school ready to learn. I think there is a strong socio-economic factor there.

But there is always a kid or two in each group that really isn't terribly interested, unless one gets the other three or four into a good discussion.

[Bill McBlueState]

115. about blaming the parents

Everyone always wants to blame parents. But I don't see how that can be used to actually solve the problem, since "make parents care more about education" isn't a plausible solution.

There's something deeper than parents not caring. Obviously, parents in the sixties didn't all independently decide to stop having expectations of their children. Some larger societal factor must have encouraged such a widespread trend. If that factor could be identified, maybe it could be reversed somehow.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

159. As one who was a baby boomer and observed my classmates, I think

that a lot of parents in that era were survivors of the Depression and were determined that their children would not suffer any hardships. They erred in the direction of indulgence to make up for their own miserable childhoods. That's my theory, at any rate. The parents of the baby boomers used their new affluence to over-indulge their children. "My kids are going to have all the things that I didn't have."

[channa18]

39. As a college student....

who isnt part of that group, i have seen most of those....unfortunately.

[WCGreen]

69. It's all about the numbers and the effect of open enrollment...

Of course college kids were much smarter when they wore raccoon coats and had snappy catch phrases like "23 skidoo..." and amused themselves by seeing just how many freshman they could cram in a telephone booth.. (A what you say? It seems that in the old days, back before everyone had a phone attached to their hip, they had public telephones in glass booths... Imagine that...)..

I digress....

Back in those days, only the cultural elite and Barbara Streisand, like in that movie The Way We Were, could go to college.... And since they were the best and the brightest, they naturally scored higher on the inane tests that newspapers and weekly magazines would conduct to see just how smart the kids in college were....

Another factor was the kids in those days actually went to college to get an "Liberal" education.... They were exposed too many different disciplines and learned about all sorts of neat stuff...

Now, well they have thrown open the doors to the institutions of higher learning and replaced that "Liberal" education with more vocational persuits... This was done so hard working Blue collar fathers would not think their off spring was wasting "my money on an anthropology major"....

So vocational schools are not the best place to get a well rounded education... To get that well rounded education that we once thought was important, you would have to get a "Liberal Arts degree" and that just wouldn't do... Since Liberal is now a dirty word and no one wants their kids to get a degree in something that is dirty...

[barb162]

81. Oh hold on a second there.

I am not just talking about college. I am talking about primary and secondary schooling. Tell me why a high school graduate on the honor roll doesn't know in what country Arizona is or if Arizona (Argentina, Arizona, what's the diff) is a country. Tell me why a high school grad, a B student, can't write a paragraph. Tell me why there are so many A and B students these days in primary and secondary schools. Why so much grade inflation these days other than it makes the mommies and daddies happy.

[WCGreen]

92. My sisters step kids all did really well in High School...

They think they are brilliant....

But, alas, alak, none of them could hold a candle to the smart kids when graduated...

The one had a five point average...

Did they make a super duper grade to give kids who showed a little gumption and just A's and B's to the regular kids...

But then again, I have other friends who have children in school who do very well...

But you are right... The kids today are just as dumb as the kids were when I graduated high school back in 1975... Only now, the average kids are made to feel above average....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Grade inflation is real

"C" used to be the average grade. That's why most colleges will keep students in good standing as long as they earn a "C" average.

Years ago, I saw a documentary about Rachel Carson, the pioneering environmental writer, who died in 1962, They showed one of her essays from high school, and scrawled across the top was "Excellent: B+"

Something is seriously out of whack when half the graduating class graduates with honors, as typically happens at Ivy League schools. Yes, many of the students at Yale are almost frighteningly brilliant and motivated, but others are simply wealthy and expect high grades for their money.

Few schools have resisted the trend. I knew the admissions department people at one college, and they said that a "C" average at a particular private school in Seattle was the equivalent of a "B" anywhere else, so that they accounted for this when they looked at the admissions dossiers of students from there.

[Bill McBlueState]

117. these are some very good points you raise

We need to be looking for more substantial explanations for the problems raised in the OP than simply blaming parents or teachers.

We can't make people be more responsible for their own and their children's education, but we can look at how the situation has materially changed over the years. Once we understand those changes, we can propose solutions that will address those changes.

Is the college population less "elite" today? Yes. Is it harder for kids from diverse backgrounds to get an effective education? Yes. So, how can universities taylor their existing programs to a wider array of students without compromising intellectual rigor?

Are there more single parents than there used to be? Yes. Is it harder for single-parent families to make education a priority? Yes. So, what can society do to make it easier for single parents to raise educated kids?

And so on.

[InsultComicDog]

74. Not to disagree...

...but I'm not sure I had those skills when I was in college, either. I think we all would like to remember ourselves being smarter than we really were, but a more careful review of the way I was back then reveals a lot of things that were not yet "lessons learned".

[hatrack]

105. I had university seniors who had problems with subject-verb agreement

These were juniors and seniors, for the most part, at a large state university. Lots of bright kids, some true dullards, but about 65% of them had writing skills ranging from mediocre to truly wretched.

[AngryAmish]

106. Chicks did guys with great skills

numchuck skills...

[AngryAmish]

109. If kids are so dumb, why do they keep renorming IQ tests?

By pure numbers folks are getting smarter over time, not dumber. Young folks may just not have the same knowledge set as older folks.

[shrike]

120. dumb is cool

Think about it. Reality shows, Adam Sandler movies (though I doubt Mr. Sandler himself is a dumb man), music videos. Image is all, brains are for suckers. Success comes to those who can't think.

[Colorado Blue]

138. I think you have said a mouthful there. nt

[bicentennial_baby]

122. i see more issues with basic math

as a tutor in college, i see students for a range of subjects including chemistry, english, algebra, French, etc.

Most of all, i see a disturbing lack of basic math skills among students of all ages. Calculators are the devil, imho. I came to this conclusion after having to teach a 20 year old his multiplication tables last year. :wow:

[Gormy Cuss]

124. I taught my nephews the multiplication table 'tricks'

The simple devices like any number multiplied by 5 will result in a number ending in 5 or 0, multiplied by 2 always results in an even number, etc. Based on their reactions, it was as if I had just explained the secret of the universe.

Calculators and spreadsheet software are dangerous tools in the hands of those without basic math skills.
I've wasted more time explaining the order of operations to coworkers ("gee, you mean those parentheses mean something?")

[bicentennial_baby]

125. exactly

"Calculators and spreadsheet software are dangerous tools in the hands of those without basic math skills." :thumbsup:

and good for you with your nephews!! excellent! :)

[barb162]

160. I think there is a slow but steady meltdown of our system

What was bad five years ago is worse now and it's in all areas.

These kids are prime pickin' for the fundamentalists. These kids can't analyze anything.

[bikebloke]

126. Flash cards

I remember back in grade school, I had to learn the multiplication tables using flash cards. And I always had to take a math course every year in school. In college, I bought an early calculator (steam driven) to speed up work in a poorly taught physics course. So I kept using it afterwards until one day I realized that my math ability had deteriorated. So I chucked it and went back to pencil and paper. Before long, I could do math in my head again.

We also had three years of french in grade school. This was public school, too.

[barb162]

161. I took math for 12 years and then in college

The rigors of math make for good analytical ability.

I agree with you about calculators. I know people who have to do 7x9 on a calculator. They can't reason it out in their heads. They never learned their multiplication tables. Why teachers stopped teaching things like that is beyond me.

[triguy46]

128. I've spent 15 years in higher ed

in a large public university and have one recent grad and a daughter who's a soph. I'm dulled and desensitized to the general lack of skills of all types, lack of understanding od t world and national issues, and that in many cases, you have to 'work' to get 'things.' I can tell you from the inside, it ain't pretty. And where it is perhaps the most ugly is among our future journalists: can't spell, can't do minimal research, don't understand complex issues or thoughts. But they can work on their tan so they can look good as TV talking heads. Other than English majors, they are not well read and have no interest in reading, hence poor verbal and writing skills.

But, it is friday, no on goes to classes and the parties are starting, hey, right now!!!!

[progressivebydesign]

139. I'm shocked at the easiness of my daughter's high school education.

It just embarrasses me when I talk to my friend in Europe, and she tells me about her sons, around the same age, who are studying every night until late, taking exams, studying engineering in high shool, and all the languages they must learn.

It is not a shock to me that students don't know jack about life... part of that stuff they mention was things that you'd learn at home! Parents used to have their kids more involved in the household, not plugged into a personal audio device or watching tv.

[distantearlywarning]

141. I teach a science lab course at a large public university

In my class, students have to do statistics, write two medium-length papers, and engage in critical thinking. I would say that on average, 10% of my students are where I think they should be in terms of all of these skills (i.e., at the college Junior/Senior level in a industrialized, high-tech, literate society), and 10% are completely hopeless and/or unmotivated.

The other 80% tend to be fairly bright kids who are very accustomed to following directions, taking notes, doing exactly what an instructor tells them to do, memorizing facts, etc... and who, as a result, are very, very bad at actually thinking through things by themselves to get to an answer and motivating themselves to learn something beyond exactly what is required to get a grade. Many of the students that fall into this group don't want to be stupid. They actually want very much to please their professors and their parents, and they want to be thought of as smart. But our school systems teach them from kindergarten on that the way to succeed is to follow orders. This doesn't lead to the development of critical thinking. And it doesn't make good writers out of them either. I have seen many college kids who cannot write a paragraph that actually conveys meaning, although they will happily follow my directions regarding spelling and margins and how many sentences a paragraph should have (and then get really upset and frustrated when they receive a C anyway, even though they followed all the "directions").

I get really frustrated and angry sometimes because it seems like I spend most of my classroom time trying to get them to think beyond the borders of all of the rules and regulations they have been taught in their first 14 years of school. They aren't bad kids, and they're not stupid. They just think that learning is about rote memorization and getting the A. I'm sure that they must have liked to learn and read and write and think creatively at some point in their past, but public school beat it out of them at a young age and taught them in the process to chase the GPA above all else.

[Nikki Stone 1]

144. The 80% are the result of Behaviorist education, or as I call it, the

Sea World school of education. Throw them a fish (or candy) and get them to perform. It's pure behaviorism and does not encourage independent thought but response to a stimulus. Once the teens get to college it becomes very hard to undo.

[distantearlywarning]

148. I agree.

And that's a good way to put it. "Behaviorist Education". I like it.

[kath]

158. All the behaviorist crap in schools is also part of why we chose to

homeschool. I'd much rather my kids be treated as curious, individual human beings than little rats in Skinner boxes.

And I've been thinking lately that it's time for me to read Kohn's "Punished by Rewards" again...

[kath]

157. you said a mouthful, d.e.w.

"They just think that learning is about rote memorization and getting the A. I'm sure that they must have liked to learn and read and write and think creatively at some point in their past, but public school beat it out of them at a young age and taught them in the process to chase the GPA above all else."

This is *exactly* why we homeschool, at least the main reason.

[barb162]

164. Your last sentence

I am supposing many of them never had to write or read very much to get good grades.


You indicate it here:

"I have seen many college kids who cannot write a paragraph that actually conveys meaning...." I look at that and respond, how the heck did they get out of grammar school, let alone high school? What in the world were their teachers doing? All of this incredible lack of preparation, lack of thinking skills, etc., when they get to college tells me their first twelve years of school was failing them miserably. This also indicates that colleges are lowering their standards by letting these students in the door. It is as if the system, top to bottom, needs to go back to basics or some major overhaul.

Grade inflation needs to be thrown out the window and teachers have to go back to grading on a bell curve. Parents need to support GOOD teachers and push real learning instead of fighting with teachers over grades. Parents should be pushing the teachers for giving solid homework and pushing the kids to excel, to more than master the dumb-downed material. The texts have to be redone; none of this dumbed-down crap anymore. Parents need to be pushing the school system to get those kids writing. Second grade writing skills won't be acceptable for entering college. If a teacher has writing and math skills of a eighth grader, out the door from the teaching profession. Tighten up the qualifications of the teachers. If I were to see a teacher's note with spelling and grammatical errors, I would be going to the school district and asking why the hell is this idiot teaching in this school district and why am I paying taxes for this person's salary. Someone has to start screaming somewhere. Frankly I don't know why everyone isn't screaming about this, but the parents most of all.

Child A does not get out of grade 1 unless he/she can perform addition, read at level x, etc. Child A repeats grade 1 or goes to summer school unless all functions meet level x. (No more giving Child A a "B" grade for non-performance and sending Child A to second grade. Repeat this for each year of school.)

Unless it changes from bottom to top, which I doubt it will, we are going to be looking like Rome, circa 350A.D. very soon. It's already started. You could actually see the degradation of the penmanship and spelling of the stone cutters, where the art and drawing became far more barbaric, crude and rough, where you could see the actual decline of the society from a few decades before. It's plain to see the societal decline here in many of the posts. This isn't just about education. A friend looked at some of the posts here and had a comment: We're doomed.

Asia's waiting in the wings. If we don't straighten ourselves out, we can always go back to an 18th century subsistence agrarian economy.

[WLKjr]

155. I tought my mom how to use her credit cards

She was wondering how I was able to get so many so quick and make my credit score jump 100 points in little more than year and a half.


Simple, apply, recieve, put 20 bucks on them, pay them off BEFORE you get the bill (avoiding interest) and put it away in a locked box. Repeat.

went from a 600 to a 745 in a year and a half, no joke, by doing it that way. I personally have I think 5 visa, 2 mastercard, 1 Amex, 3 retail credit lines. Plus a car loan that I haven't been late on (yet, thank god) and student loans comming up.

What kills you is leaving a balance on those cards. My mom thought leaving a little on it made it better, and thought this for many many years. You gotta learn to play the credit game I guess, and I learned about it from my grandpa.

[nomatrix]

163. Assessment testing from grade school

puts the pressure on students.
In TX they spent 6 weeks practicing for the TAAS test.
That leaves out what they should have been studying in those 6 weeks. The teaching then revolves around what is on the test.
A lot of pressure on the students and teachers to have them pass for gov't funding for the schools. I think it does more harm than good.