Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Are you progressive or liberal?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:34 PM
Original message
Poll question: Are you progressive or liberal?
Edited on Thu Jan-19-06 06:49 PM by Nutmegger
I've seen a few posts that posed a similar question. To be honest with all of you, I use to interchange "liberal" with "progressive" because the RW freep-jobs successfully tainted the word "liberal" (i.e. it's become a "dirty" word). So here are two offical definitions:

From Wiki:

Liberalism is an ideology, or current of political thought, which holds liberty as the primary political value.<1> Liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on the power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a free market economy that supports private enterprise, and a system of government that is transparent. This form of government favors liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law, and an equal opportunity to succeed. Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the divine right of kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property. In many countries, modern liberalism differs from classical liberalism by asserting that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over individual rights.

Now let's look at progressive also straight from Wiki:

Progressivism is a political philosophy whose adherents promote public public policies that they believe would lead to positive social change. As a broad characterization of political leanings, political progressivism mostly refers to social liberalism, social democracy, or green politics. Progressivism may also mean prefering moderate change, as opposed to minimal or maximum change. In this sense, it is contrasted with reactionary, conservative, as well as radical ideology. Progressive logic is the value logic that gives an underlying unity to this diversity of views.

Social Liberalism:

Social liberalism (new liberalism), a development of liberalism in the early 20th century, is a label used by progressive liberal parties in order to differentiate themselves from market liberal parties, especially when there are two or more liberal parties in a country. Additionally, it also means social progressivism, usually when contrasted with social conservatism.

Social liberalism is a political philosophy that emphasizes mutual collaboration through liberal institutions, rather than the threat and use of force, to solve political controversies. Social liberalism, as a branch of liberalism, contends that society must protect liberty and opportunity for all citizens, and advocates some restrictions on economic competition, such as anti-trust laws and price controls on wages ("minimum wage laws.") It also expects governments to provide a basic level of welfare, supported by taxation, intended to enable the best use of the talents of the population, to prevent revolution, or simply "for the public good."

Rejecting both radical capitalism and the revolutionary elements from the socialist school, modern liberalism emphasized positive liberty, seeking to enhance the freedoms of the poor and disadvantaged in society.

Social Democracy:

Social democracy is a political ideology that emerged in the late 19th and early 20th centuries from supporters of Marxism. Initially, social democratic parties included revolutionary socialists, such as Rosa Luxemburg and Vladimir Lenin alongside those who advocated a gradualist, evolutionary approach, such as Eduard Bernstein, Karl Kautsky and Jean Jaures. After World War I and the Russian Revolution, social democracy became exclusively associated with the non-revolutionary approach. Modern social democracy emphasises a program of gradual legislative reform of the capitalist system in order to make it more equitable and humane, while the theoretical end goal of building a socialist society is either completely forgotten or redefined in a pro-capitalist way.

The term social democracy can also refer to the particular kind of society that social democrats advocate. The Socialist International (SI) - the worldwide organisation of social democratic and democratic socialist parties - defines social democracy as an ideal form of representative democracy, that may solve the problems found in a liberal democracy. The SI emphasizes the following principles: Firstly, freedom - not only individual liberties, but also freedom from discrimination and freedom from dependence on either the owners of the means of production or the holders of abusive political power. Secondly, equality and social justice - not only before the law but also economic and socio-cultural equality as well, and equal opportunities for all including those with physical, mental, or social disabilities. Finally, solidarity - unity and a sense of compassion for the victims of injustice and inequality.

And Green Politics:

Green politics is a body of political ideas informed by environmentalism aimed at developing a sustainable society. It is considered by its advocates to be an alternative to both left and right views and parties, although adherents of both views tend to view Greens as "on the other side". Certainly it is true that Green parties advocate measures that appear to conventional politicians different from those grouped into labour and capital by economic interests.

Personally I lean towards socialism so I would identify more with "progressivism". What about you?

Edited to add a while bunch of stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_politics
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. A bit of both. Depends on the issue, but it's hard to peg me.
And, trust me on this, lots of people have tried. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Lol

If the signature line was working it show that I lean toward Socialism also.

Cheers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's what bothers me about the second definition
"Progressivism may also mean preferring moderate change, as opposed to minimal or maximum change."

We are not living in times of moderation, and we cannot counter radical change from the other side with "moderate" proposals. The end result is still a move in the wrong direction.

So I guess I have to go with liberalism now, hoping for the day when we can settle into progressivism. And of course it says "may also mean" which is pretty squishy.

Call me anything ya want, I guess, socialist, progressive, liberal. I am on the side of humanity.

:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. I disagree with the definition of 'liberalism' up there.
It seems to me that they are defining 'libertarian' philosophy.

If one looks at the philosophy of John F. Kennedy, a self-defined liberal, liberals believe in a strong social safety net, including ample benefits for the poor, the disabled, seniors, the unemployed, foster and adoptive parents, and any other disadvantaged peoples. That fits me to a 'T.' I would say that REGULATED private and corporate enterprise is favored, subject to taxes to pay for the social benefits.

I also like the term, 'progressive,' and tell people to call me either a 'liberal' or a 'progressive.'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. the WIKI definitions are confusing
and only related to American political vocabulary.

In reality one of the most successfull political philosophies is social-liberalism which is amount to social-democracy and emphasizes the liberal values of freedom ALONG side with social values. Modern liberalism (even in the US "democrat" version) is considered in Europe as a right-wing philosophy because of the limited governmental role.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The Wiki definitions probably are not the best, these are from answers.com
Liberalism - A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.

Progressive - A person who actively favors or strives for progress toward better conditions, as in society or government.

http://www.answers.com/liberalism
http://www.answers.com/progressive
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. None of above.
Anarchist! (Anarcho-syndicalist to be more precise).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Other
Liberalism is a way of self-definition, by it’s nature it is fundamentally the way of the anarchist, especially in the 21st century, were language itself is completely manipulated to in most cases just to be babble.

For me Liberalism, or a liberal is a democrat, that believes, in the principles of a true democracy, where liberty means to understand-- that to be a true democrat-- is to be friendly, and respectful to whom you may even perceive to be your enemy by means of liberty: which means that regardless of how much the majority disagrees with the minority, that that person has fundamental rights, to life, liberty, and happiness.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. A LOT of both
I don't think the terms are mutually exclusive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Both terms are unclear definitions
Liberals can be right winged. Libertarians are liberals, so it's a very broad term can mean anything. And even progressives is a vague broad term. So you are asking to define a person by two very broad terms which have a tremendous overlap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Actually there are TWO types of libertarians...
...civil libertarians are usually more liberal.
"Libertarians" tend to be conservatives.

Me....I am more of a moderate. Some of all, but opinionated on my own.
I really prefer to call myself a "Clintonian Democrat".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The problem with the term liberal is that liberatarian are always liberals
Even if they are conservatives, because the term is about freedom and not about a political view. Libertarianism is a liberal philosophy since it is about individual rights. Liberalism isn't the opposite of conservatisme.

LOL Well at least "Clintonian Democrat" is clear, because of the Clinton part. I think I am more a social liberal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. My understanding of the term "libertarian"..
...is that it is not related to liberalism. It is related to "liberties", and people who feel strongly about them. Social libertarians are usually the ones who will think like me on personal liberties and protections.

The folks from the Libertarian Party are mostly conservatives who seem to concentrate more on liberties from taxes; from gun control; from more right-wing causes than anything else. Libertarian Party officials were VERY anti-Clinton....and you can tell how THAT set with ME......LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. They are generally conservative, but liberalism about liberties
A liberal in its original meaning is somebody who is in favor of individual freedom. Later on it became the term for lefties, but libertarianism has its roots in liberalism. That's the whole problem with using the term "liberal," because it can apply to a wide range of people. The term "liberatarian" comes from France where it was used by the anarchists

Progressive is a better term because it is opposed to the term conservative. Still progressive is a wide field ranging from the center to the left, but Liberatarian tend to be liberal conservatists as opposed to Republican who are non-liberal conservatists.

This chart is the best way to describe it:



The higher up the chart the more "liberal" a person is, so both the left-wing and the liberatarians fall in the liberal category unlike the populists and right-wing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. WELL SAID...
I agree whole-heartedly....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Yes, both do share common ground
I guess the question should be rephrased to which one do you lean towards.

To me, progressivism seems a notch or two to the left of liberalism. While Wiki doesn't spell it out, it just seems that way since they look at Social Liberalism, Social Democracy and Green Politics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. Socialist
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. being burned out on definition wars -I say lib cuz it pisses off neocons
:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Progressive" was tainted by Nader. So, liberal for me.
I'll take my chance with the RW think tanks rather than identify with their allies on the left.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gr8dane_daddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hmmm, guess I'm
Prolibsive or Libressive...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-19-06 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. "other - Show me the quan."
I am a libertarian socialist. Without liberty, there is no society worth
supporting. I agree 100% with the declaration of independence, but not
one bit with the constitution.

But for the sake of argument, i'm a realist, and then i look to what
makes the best "quan". Each candidate gets my vote on an indivdiual basis.
I agree with dennis kucinich and am a progressive by that, but as that is
a vapourous nonworld in today's corporatist state, then i'm a pragmatist
who believes that radical change can be made within the framework of
today's corporatism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC