Bin Laden: Read the text and tell me:

[Generator]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4628932.stm

some snips~

However, what prompted me to speak are the repeated fallacies of your President Bush in his comment on the outcome of the US opinion polls, which indicated that the overwhelming majority of you want the withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, but he objected to this desire and said that the withdrawal of troops would send a wrong message to the enemy.

The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq.

If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons.

~
You should read the whole thing. Not a msnbc or cnn production but the BBC here. He mentions 9/11..he mentions abu gharib..he mentions that the people of the US want the war in Iraq over..and you tell me either Bin Laden is a frigging genius in understanding how to continue with endless war and prop Bush up, or this tape is the mastermind of our own government.

Because if you-yes you-want the Iraq war to end-or the war on terror-to cease-then you my friend, are in league with the king of all terrorists, Osama Bin Laden. How does it feel? In fact, much of this speech says everything we have been saying for months. Is Bin Laden really reading our talking points? Why does Bin Laden sound more truthful than the Bush administration? HELP.

[Cleita]

1. Easy.

Bin Laden didn't write these words even if he said them.

[Pam-Moby]

17. I think you are correct. It sure sounds like Rove

printed this out of his play book against the bad bad dems. Maybe this is a way to turn our people against one another. Like dem and rethugs. Just a thought. So this war can keep marching along.

[BattyDem]

2. It's amazing how he hit all of our talking points, isn't it?

Now when our side says something, every RW nut in the country can say, "That's exactly what OBL wants, so you obviously support him more than your own country!" :eyes:

[glitch]

21. Very Rovian.

Perhaps they're working together. Perhaps there is a friend for everyone, somewhere.

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Oh yes

All the talking points and right before the NSA hearings.

[BattyDem]

24. LOL ... I knew it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2379758

[Poll_Blind]

3. OBL uses universal grievances to move his evil cause forward. However,...

...have no doubt that he wishes to turn all of the Middle East, if not the world, into a caliphate. He is truly a mad genius in that he will use many, many rational arguments to support this mad postulate.

PB

[htuttle]

12. It's not exactly a 'mad postulate'

Look at any time when a culture has felt downtrodden after a period of being (or feeling) dominant, and you will find a movement that seeks to return that culture back to it's 'glory days'. In the Middle East, that would be the semi-mythical time of the 'Caliphate' to many people.

While unrealistic, you would be unwise to write it off as 'mad', since you would be missing the potentially powerful appeal it might have to other members of that culture (cf. Hitler in Germany in the 1930's, Napoleon on his second run as Emperor, Reagan in his first term, etc...). Even if a culture isn't quite in ruins, social change might still generate a powerful motivation in some to return to the imagined glory of the 'good old days' (cf. Radical Christian Fundamentalist movement in the US in the 1990's-2000's, etc...).

[Poll_Blind]

19. I agree with you about wanting to return to 'glory days' but his...

...interpretation of same would be draconian in the least. Remember, this is the guy that the Taliban ratted out. I draw the conclusion that he was hardliner to the point of even making them uncomfortable however one could arguably make a case for political pressure being behind their moves.

However, I agree with your assessment of how an Arab mind, even a Westernized one, might view OBL's goals and the difference between that interpretation and my own. Especially with the poor economic situation in the ME.

Very good points! This is why I like DU- give you different perspectives that you hadn't thought of! Thank you for the analysis!

PB

[EVDebs]

47. Funny thing is how Bush always seems to be rescued in the polls by OBL

popping up. Weird, huh ? It's like OBL is some kind of CIA tool or something out of the Third Option by Ted Shackley.

If they REALLY wanted to capture OBL, why don't they use the RFIDs that Wal-Mart is using on US ?

Total Surveillance
http://www.motherjones.com/interview/2005/12/albrecht.h ...

Couple this insidious technology with purposely erroneous background checks

Who is checking the background checkers?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p13s02-wmgn.html

They've offshored, outsourced, and privatized TIA. Now all they have to do is fire you for being 'of the wrong political party' and put false information in your background data...and voila ! You've just created the most insidious terror project in the US ever.

If they can track a pair of underware I buy at Wal-Mart, how come they can't track the kidney dialysis equipment that OBL needs into the Hindu Kush Mts between Afganistan and Pakistan ? Just asking some obvious questions here...

Maybe some sharp Republicans can answer that question, huh ?

[Maraya1969]

58. Sounds like George Bush. n/'t

[mousie]

4. I thought it was republican written

you know, full of their talking points, basically reinforcing their claims that we're supporting the terrorists...... this would be the PROOF... cleverly devised. I wish I could express this clearly, but I'm not succeeding!!! Sorry!

[alarimer]

29. I know exactly what you mean

I thought the same thing when I heard about it on Springer this morning. I thought that any Democrats (or anyone) who is calling for immediate troop withdrawal will be hit with the "well you must be with Osama" label. Maybe my tinfoil hat is on too tight but I think this tape is planted.

[Lost-in-FL]

5. At least her read the newspaper...

:eyes:

[Straight Shooter]

6. "bush and his administration"?

What a very odd choice of words. :wtf:

[rodeodance]

35. in AP translation it said--bush, cheney, rumsfield and wolfiwitz.

[Straight Shooter]

40. Really?

Isn't that interesting. It's almost as if OBL wants Americans to jump to the defense of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

[rodeodance]

42. yup, but RW talk shows are saying OBL sounds like the Dems

[Straight Shooter]

44. I just posted in your thread about that issue.

It's sickening.

[rodeodance]

46. yes, I agree. When I first heard it I was ??--then I started flipping sta

-tions and it was all over the place.

[arcane1]

7. that was exactly my thinking as well...

Tweety wasted no time calling bin Laden a "Michael Moore", and fuck-head Wolf Blitzer had Blum on his show with the caption "bin Laden's Book Club"

bin Laden, or whomever made that tape, is trying to discredit the anti-Bush, anti-war movement, and equate said movement to "terrorism"

note the mentions of war profiteering

the alleged "truce" (aka- negotiating with terrorists)

plugging a fucking anti-US Foreign-policy book

abu Gharib

etc....

very convenient, no?

and this CIA 'guarantee' that the voice in that message is, in fact, bin Laden, means jack shit to me. They expect me to believe that they can identify his voice with 100% accuracy, yet those same shit-for-brains' can't tell the difference between Usama and "fat Usama" when they have PICTURES??????

[arcane1]

10. something else I just thought of-

after all this we hear about wire-tapping, etc, we know they are also going to monitor such things as credit-card purchases and such things

buy Blum's book with a credit-card? BAM! You're a suspect. One less Bush-hater = one less vote

I suppose that applies even if you pay cash, but use one of those book club cards

and libraries, of course, we all know they've been snooping those since the "patriot" act

"bin Laden" is just a FOX news on-the-scene shill for BushCo

[murray hill farm]

72. one positive from that "tape"

Is the bringing to the attention of the american people of Blum's book..even out of curiosity..many who had never heard of the book will read it.

[mwb970]

75. You forgot Poland!

after all this we hear about wire-tapping, etc, we know they are also going to monitor such things as credit-card purchases and such things

Now they want to spy on our Google searches too! When will it end?

[SupplyConcerns]

38. Or the CIA could be lying to us

That's basically part of their job.

[Igel]

8. Nobody's said that UBL isn't good at PR.

His work was a hit for years among his target audience. He said exactly what needed to be said to push their buttons, in exactly the way it needed to be said.

I'm not going to rule out that he's tied in to some network that is vehemently and strongly anti-war, has no love for the US actions and policies overseas and specifically in Muslim/Arab countries, and has been tutored in what would play well in the US. He may just be looking at websites; he may be reading materials; he may be talking to people. But he mentions what's happened in the recent past, and says the right words.

* is not his target audience. FR is not his target audience. Sheehan, you, me, AAR, and numerous other groups--they're his audience.

[Generator]

13. Okay you are in the mad genius camp

It just seems so strange. Mission accomplished-that was a big deal in the press/blogs in 2003. It seems so well unimportant now, to anybody but the left, yes..who use it to mock Bush..it's all about Bush this speech..is this what Bin Laden is obsessing on now? Isn't he running around trying to stay alive and he's got that in his notes as a priority for his next speech? It's not topical but it's something we use-because it does sum up the folly of this war.

If he's playing to us-for what purpose-ah we will surrender and then Al Queda will kill us all? That's what Bush would say. I don't want to surrender. I would prefer Bin Laden and his ilk were six feet under. I don't think (just as Osama is saying here) that being in Iraq is helping us defeat him or any terrorists. If war in Iraq was winning us something why are we even hearing from Al Queda at all? Why is this guy alive? I have a lot of whys and the press in this country has none.

[Igel]

83. I think that UBL believes what he said.

No parroting RW points. I think he may have doubts, but fundamentally believes that he will win, and that his agenda will come to pass. Not through his efforts, per se, any more than a good fundamentalist Xian believes he accomplishes things through his own effort.

If the majority of the American populace wants the war in Iraq and Afghanistan to end, it will end: the popular wisdom is that the world hates the administration and not the American people; that * is wildly un-popular and despised by a majority. What's keeping * in power? Fear of a dictatorship, or lies about UBL's intentions. So if you talk to the common folk and they object, then Congress might well defund the war; otherwise, UBL is the liberator. A tad simplistic, perhaps, but close enough for a discussion group. Whether or not it's a RW point or not, doesn't mean that it's not in his interest to divide common Americans from *'s military efforts; and it's not reasonable to expect him not to try to do so, just because the RW might claim he's doing it. If it's truly a message from UBL, I'd expect him to base his words on what he thinks will achieve his ends and keep his own counsel. Not mine. Not the WH press secretary's.

And if the American people don't take him up on his offer, then he's made the traditional mercy-based appeal, going one better than Al-Mugheerah did with Rustum, and under traditional rules of engagement his actions are ok. Win/win for him.

[grrl62]

63. so are you saying

OBL is anti-war? as in, he actually is trying to rally us to stand up against continuing the war?

like reverse psych?

if that is what you are saying, and that is ~true.. then it's pretty darn brilliant.

[Avalux]

9. Well - a theory.

If, as the nice fellow on Newshour said - this speech was written in English and translated to Arabic and may not be Bin Laden at all - it might be a very clever way (by those who will remain unnamed) to align Americans against the Iraq war with terrorists. Wiretaps, over-reaching executive power....any one of us could be arrested for speaking out. Scary, but entirely possible the way things are headed.

[Horse with no Name]

11. AND not only that

It reinforces the talking point that people that are speaking out against this administration are enabling the terrorists.
That, IMHO, is what this is all about.
Now the sheeple will say "Gee Mr. President, you were right. Those big bad Dems telling the truth DID make the terrorists come back".:eyes:

[arcane1]

14. picture Karl Rove in a turban and false beard...

and you'll have all you need to know about this "bin Laden" speech

I gotta give the evil bastard credit, though: this was a good idea of Karl's. THe scary thing is it just might work :scared:

[Orangepeel]

15. that could be Bin Laden

If he is still alive. Bin Laden is/was a fundamentalist nutcase who wants/wanted a holy war. He and the bush administration share/d a common interest, in that the continued "war on terror" serves both their causes well.

[MakeItSo]

18. #1: If he were alive he'd tape a video

Please. Video cameras these days are as portable and convenient as audio recorders. KKKarl just didn't have time to get the studio and makeup ready this time, like he did a few days before the 2004 election.

#2 This works very much to the Bush Criminalstration's advantage in that it makes it appear that Osama is in alliance with Sheehan et al. And as we all know, these nasty fuckers would rather tear things (or people) down than build them up.

#3 "Osama" emphasizes that one of the main reasons that the US has been spared another attack is because he's too busy doing stuff in Iraq! Well gosh durn it isn't THAT convenient. Not only does OBL's message indicate that President Idiot is Tuff on Terra, it links Osama to Iraq and suggests that the Iraq War is, indeed, on the front lines of the War on Terra! KKKarl killed 3 birds with one stone! "Osama's" speech is more sparingly efficent than Haiku. Not bad, KKKarl!

[Poll_Blind]

16. Very odd- I've read a couple of BBC-translated Bin Laden speeches and....

....this really does not seem like one of them. I will say, however, that he has over time tried to appeal to a broader less hardline-religious audience. While this speech really does appear as though it was written in English then translated into Arabic, I believe that if it is a genuine OBL communication then:

* He's working much harder to convince the majority of the Westernized Arab World to come over to his side
* He's spending an enormous amount of time, or someone is, understanding the West's (and America in specific) reaction to the Iraq War and the war on terror to leverage popular opinion against Bush as de facto support for his cause

This sonuvabitch is trying everything he possibly can to win the war, including reaching out to his enemies or seemingly so. He is doing a much better job at coming off as being an aggrieved party who is seeking a peaceful solution than the Bush administration.

In short, he's out-thinking the administration. Which is not surprising.

However, to protect ourselves from this menace, we can only look forward to a more intellectual administration in the future to adapt to these forms of communications so that we can more effectively win the battle they represent.

PB

[rodeodance]

48. "he's out-thinking the administration."--you are right. The 'truce' is

worth a try--why not (but of course cheney already shut that one down---we do not negoiate with terrorists).

[mikelewis]

53. There's no prayer anywhere in his speech....

Osama considers himself a holy warrior, a soldier in God's army. He believes all his actions are directed or at the very least justified through God will. Reading this text, there is no prayers, no scripture that shows he his cause is just in the eyes of Allah. This is not Bin Laden.

In his 1998 Fatwa, it is filled with religious rhetoric:

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said "I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshiped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders." The Arabian Peninsula has never--since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas--been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies now spreading in it like locusts, consuming its riches and destroying its plantations. All this is happening at a time when nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

Almighty God said "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty God also says "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

In this most recent text, there is no religious justification, no call to the prophets. It wasn't until after 9/11 that his writing style became much more secular and thus suspect. Such a radical shift to secularism and a shift in tone is striking and raises doubt to the validity of the speeches or tapes.

Also the quality of the video's released since 2000 have raised many questions themselves. The obvious question is why does a multi-millionaire not simply spend $350 and get a new camcorder. Bin Laden's tapes are always very poor quality both in the video and sound. Also, if you compare the post-9/11 videos to his pre-9/11 videos, there are a lot of inconsistencies. In the first one released after 9/11, the person reported to be Bin Laden is most certainly NOT Bin Laden. The man in the 2001 video bears no resemblance to Bin Laden whatsoever. In subsequent videos, there are inconsistencies such as eradicate behavior and odd posture. His speech's have departed completely from his earlier work and his speech is difficult to make out, let alone identify. The 2004 election video was by far the worst video released yet. I am convinced that one was a complete CGI workup. His shoulder's never moved once throughout the entire speech, his head cocked erratically when speaking and his arm movements were stiff and artificial. I don't know of a site that has all the video's but I have them and his transcripts. If you watch the video's and listen to his rhetoric, I am sure you'll walk away with more questions than answers.

I do not believe this transcript was written by Osama bin Ladin and I believe it's a ploy to distract the American people and re-instill fear into the population. It is most likely yet another case of the tail wagging the dog.

[stickdog]

64. This is pure Rove Being Laden. (nt)

[bklyncowgirl]

20. Has Bin Laden hanging out at DU? Why is this man still breathing?

Seriously, the man has the liberal talking points down perfect--assuming he's the one who wrote it--I have my doubts and my suspicians.

He's given the right wing talking heads a gift and taken Abramoff, Delay and the whole sorry lot right off the front pages. Now whenever anyone criticizes them they can say "You sound just like Bin Laden. You're giving aid and comfort to the enemy." and so on and so forth.

Wait for the attacks on well known antiwar Democrats echoing that theme. Who will be first: Dean, Murtha, Pelosi?

Not bad for a guy in a cave. Well, a guy in a cave with Internet access, a rather nice little library--I'd never even heard of that book, a travelling studio and his own dialysis machine.

What we have to keep asking is:

WHY IS THIS MAN STILL BREATHING??????

[Generator]

32. That is the question I always ask myself

Why is he alive? How can he be alive? Why does Bush need him to be alive?

And read this from a review of the Rogue State on Amazon and tell me it isn't the truth-maybe "Osama" is letting us know he knows we know who the terrorists really are.

~
As William Colby, former Director of the CIA, once admitted:

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."

In "Rogue State" William Blum points out that the corporate mass-media and PR propaganda campaigns have done a superlative job of covering up, distracting from and just plain lying through their teeth about America's ongoing crimes against humanity.

[converted_democrat]

68. "Why does Bush need him to be alive?"

Because if he's dead, than there is no boogy man to tout. They have to have him alive, otherwise the war on terror loses its scare. I also think the fact that the Bush and Bin Laden family have done business for years might have something to do with it. We've been on his tail how many times and lost him? We had him cornered in Torra Borah and then no one came to finish the job.. Wonder why?

[Rose Siding]

22. Always ask "who profits?"

Bush policies have helped to advance the cause of those who embrace terrorist tactics. The Iraq war has been a gift of sympathy for them from broad swaths of more moderate factions.

Opposition to the war grows more powerful here - slowly and not easily visible from where we sit maybe, but to a tactician who sees years ahead...? Who knows?

Maybe bin laden has seen that it's valuable to him to actually create a more favorable atmosphere for bushbots.

[rodeodance]

25. Joe said OBL repeated Dems and M.Moore talking points--see this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x189040

[rodeodance]

27. aiding and abetting the enemy (the Dem talk of kerry, kennedy, et al)

[CJCRANE]

28. But they're not talking points -

they're the truth of the situation as perceived by most of the world's population.

Bush has led America into a bizarro-world where the so-called #1 terrorist mastermind can actually claim the moral high ground.

[rodeodance]

33. I know--that was Joe Scarbourough talking.

[glitch]

26. Don't worry - they'll telegraph their reasons for this new tape almost

immediately. Just watch how the echo chamber uses it and you'll know the reason for it's existence and timing.
Although we already have one major clue: who recently has been claiming dissent aids the enemy?

[bleever]

30. Hannity was fired up with, who said this: Osama, Kennedy, or Dean?

The meme was crafted and ready to go: "The Dems use the same rhetoric as Osama!

Get it? Dems = Osama!"


Very Rovian, even the part where it's distributed via Al-Jazeera.

[glitch]

31. Indeedy. I would laugh but their blatancy reeks of desperation.

And desperate cornered rats are not funny.

[rodeodance]

36. so, RW talk shows are all saying the same thing--

[Donailin]

41. on dailykos

there are ratings. You get a *four* for that comment.

[RebelOne]

59. Yes, I heard that, too.

Hannity is an assh***. I'd love to slap him silly.

[Donailin]

34. that is not binladen

it is our own administration. Of that I am convinced. It reads like Cheney to me, as a matter of fact. Bottom line: Make the liberals feel sympathetic towards OBL because he appreciates "The Rogue State" and "liberal talking points" and bam! The liberals are on the side of BinLaden, hence the liberals are the enemies of America, hence it is lawful to arrest and detain American liberals because we are enemy combatants. Torture is part of the war on terror. Spying on Americans? Part of the war on terror. Subpoenaing google searches on random americans? war on terror disguised as war on porn.

Three years ago I ran around with my hair on fire because I could see the writing on the wall. Everyone thought I was "out there" and I needed to "get a life"

Those same people are now very nervous, but they have no idea what's coming next.

And now I see more writing and it is more frightening than before.

The worst is yet to come.

Sorry to be so cryptic, but this binladen trick of theirs speaks volumes to me and I've yet to be proven wrong in my assessments of these events and what the ramifications are.

[rodeodance]

37. umm.. no wonder the terror alerts were not raised.

[Emit]

52. Donailin

I can totally relate to what you say here!

[Marie26]

55. What do you suspect the ramifications are?

I've got my own frightening suspicions. Hey, maybe we can compare notes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. I think it is OBL

The truce business is very interesting, and probably indicates a generic move in an Arabic rhetorical tradition. We know little, I think, about the rhetorical traditions that developed in Islamic cultures, whereas we know quite a bit about the Western rhetorical tradition, Plato to NATO, as they say. Without having a background in any specific Islamic rhetorical tradition, I would say that there are consistencies. OBL is here using the rhetorical techniques he would use with an Islamic audience for a primarily Western "US" audience. The business of the truce clearly draws on what every college freshman would call ethos in the Western/Aristotelian rhetorical tradition: the projection of good character for the speaker. OBL seeks to portray his cause as one that is forced into violence, so he pretends to offer an out, but it is of course imaginary. Some of the imagery, by the way, is quite beautiful. This passage in particular is musical even in translation, and uses a number of rhetorical devices; I can only imagine how it must sound in the original: "You tried to deny us the decent life, but you cannot deny us a decent death. Refraining from performing jihad, which is sanctioned by our religion, is an appalling sin. The best way of death for us is under the shadows of swords." This is not, of course, to praise OBL for his eloquence. But it's a little too well-engineered to be a phoney, in my view. No forger would pay such close attention to poetic quality.

[rodeodance]

43. see this DU thread also

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=189542&mesg_id=189588

[rodeodance]

45. Thanx. I appreciate your commentary. It gives me pause.

[stickdog]

66. Come on. It's not too well engineered to be phony; it's Rove Being Laden.

[alcibiades_mystery]

77. If you keep saying so...it must be true

Or something...

:eyes:

[rucky]

49. I didn't think we had "talking points"

anybody with a lick of common sense would draw the same conclusions about Bush & Iraq.

[buddysmellgood]

50. I had the same first reaction. You stated it beautifully.

[buddysmellgood]

51. But the CIA says it's real...and they NEVER get it wrong.

[Mojorabbit]

54. My gut feeling on it is

that * and Osama need eachother and are propping eachother up but I am not sure what exactly the end game is supposed to be.

[Nothing Without Hope]

56. Some additional DU posts suggesting this tape is fake:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=183367
thread title (1-19-06 GD): OBL audio: See voice morphing tech. 1999 WaPo article!!!
Good reason to wonder – is it REALLY Bin Laden on those tapes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x188355#188427
thread title (1-19-06 GD): Something curious about the Bin Laden tape.
An Arabic speaker says that the new tape doesn’t seem to be in his style.
Du post in the previous thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=188355&mesg_id=190081
Reply #74 (1-20-06): Michael Ledeen {actually misspelled as Micheal Leeden} says OBL died in mid-Dec, 2005

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x189557
thread title (1-19-06 GD): Expert on Lehrer says Bin Laden speech was first written in English --->>>
Post in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=189557&mesg_id=189833
Reply #14: Wouldn't be the first time an Osama tape was faked
Cites article saying that earlier videotape supposedly by OBL claiming 9/11 attacks is obvious fake – shows photos indicating that it is not OBL.

and then there is the timing...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x185646
thread title (1-19-06 GD): What's happening tomorrow, that BushCo would need a distraction?
Why is the “new” bin Laden tape surfacing noisily right now? Clearly the Bushies have multiple reasons, but I’m betting it’s most related to the leaked DoJ memo “legalizing” warrantless spying and the confirmation of Alito, who would help to uphold this precedent for unchecked presidential power.

[Maraya1969]

57. Does he really say: "Praise God" instead of "Praise Allah"?

[RebelOne]

60. He repeats it throughout the tape.

That and "God willing."

[Disturbed]

61. This is the real Osama bin Laden.

Osama Letter


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"


"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."


Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?


Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?


The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.


The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.


The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.


When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.


(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.


(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it."

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

[rodeodance]

70. could be a translation problem.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. Or an ACTUAL translation?

:shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. Allah means God

If the translator was...ahem...translating, then he would translate Allah into God.

The only people who don't translate Allah into God when they're translating Arabic into English are racist douchebags who would like us to believe that Allah is a DIFFERENT God than the one worsjipped in the Judeo-Christian tradition, which is, of course, completely false.

[depakid]

62. "we managed to drain their economy."

That's about the long and short of whats going on here- and I don't ANYONE can disagree with that.

[glitch]

81. That "we" is telling isn't it.

"we" would have to include all the people who seriously benefited from the war on Iraq, wouldn't it? Halliburton, Bechtel, Carlyle, etc etc.
What an interesting "we" this osama is a member of...

[malaise]

65. Heard a former CIA head on CNN

saying that the tape will make people understand why the President needs to 'spy'. Coincidence??? These men are brazen with their propaganda.

[rodeodance]

71. this tape will shore up votes for the new PA and snooping IMHO--yet, on

the other hand, it seems to embarrass the WH--
It is a paradox that I can not wrap my head around (unless the WH has accepted the short term embarrassment for the glory of long-term Freedom)??

[zippy890]

67. This tape is major embarassment to bush

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2053496

[rodeodance]

69. i agree, for the most part, the WH seems to be playing it down (except

the obligatory press conf. by Scotty)

[malaise]

74. Confuse and befuddle

this has long been the modus operandi. The timing is too good just like before the 2004 election where Osama virtually told people to vote for Bush. I give up - I believe nothing they say anymore and when all the spin doctors are ready and waiting with the talking points, it only makes me more suspicious.

[zippy890]

76. Thats what they do best - spin whatever happens

manipulate the headlines, get the right angle (for their warmongering efforts) out there to make them sound tough, competant, smart - all of which they are most decidedly not.

the unfortunate part is the willingness of the american people to buy into the fear that bush & co start immediately promoting.

[mwb970]

73. It's a fake, folks.

Why audio with no video? Why the convenient timing? Why the eerie reworking of all Democratic talking points? Why has it been analyzed as having been written in English and translated into Arabic?

I smell a Dick. Or is it a Karl?

[drfresh]

82. I think I have to agree with you

The question is, what if anything can be done about it. The media will swallow whatever the government says. It'll probably take a whistleblower with exceptional balls.

[anarch]

80. you know, even if this actually is Bin Laden, which I doubt

seeing as I have very much doubted that the man's alive for a while now, but even if it is, screw that guy! Screw Bin Laden, screw Bush, screw Cheney (especially hard), and screw all of these evil bastards!

They have always been basically two sides of the same coin, and they can all kiss my ass. Evil goddamn death-dealing monsters, every last one of them. I've never really subscribed to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Also, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Let's not even fall for any of this bullshit, ok? Anybody can look in their heart, and maybe use their brain a little tiny bit too, and know what's right. We're not agreeing with a murdering piece of shit terrorist...we're just speaking from our hearts.