george bush is not the main problem

[datasuspect]

he is a puppet, he's being told what to do. there are more important people he ANSWERS to.

the major problem is the concentration of wealth and power in too few hands.

the major problem is the collusion between our elected representatives and well-funded corporate interests.

and i am really starting to believe it doesn't matter whether there is a democrat or republican in office: they are mainly beholden to similar corporate interests--they are not beholden to the american people.

this isn't defeatism.

i refuse to respond emotionally to any of the shit perpetrated. they can manipulate your patriotism, they can manipulate your team spirit (us and them, du'er and freeper, democrat and republican, their team and our team).

the bush regime is a test case: they want to see how far they can take us toward totalitarianism.

and remember, they DEFINETELY know how to get in you line REALLY QUICKLY.

take out some buildings and kill a few thousand people and we'll all be like putty in their hands again. they know this. they count on this.

[ComerPerro]

1. bumper sticker: "Bush: Just a Pawn in Their Game"

[Imagevision]

26. Bush was their ideal choice - an idiot to run games around who would

even nuke Iran if told to and their cop-out would simply be; President Bush ended up making many grave errors.

[Hoping4Change]

37. Saying "just a pawn" suggests Bush is a victim.

It'd be preferable IMO to refer to bush as a "willing stooge".

[ComerPerro]

2. Bush is one of the central problems.

there can be no puppet show without a puppet.

[datasuspect]

4. my point being

he is a problem, but do you really think it will get any better once he is gone?

no group can willingly give up as much power as they have.

the focus, the technology, the complete profit-driven imperative: and all the money--so much fucking money.

[ComerPerro]

5. True, it won't be any better till they are all gone

[datasuspect]

8. it's more than people

it's the system.

a company like boeing or raytheon manufactures components for weaponry and equipment in manifold congressional districts. congressman X needs the votes (people in his district who work for the contractor), he gets the appropriation for the contractor, the contractor kicks back.

it's legal corruption.

how can you fight against one person when the next presidential candidate is destined to be the product of this corruption?

[MissWaverly]

31. he is the first president to be supported by foreign interests

his whole life he has been financially supported by the Saudis, we have never had a president
like him before.

[The Straight Story]

3. I heard this during the clinton years - re okie city, et al

Worked for a gun company with a front store of army surplus gear. Milita types in there all the time - and these folks did not like repubs or dems.

Basically - the thinking was that clinton was wanting to crack down on americans utilizing new laws after the bombing (and let's not forget waco). BUT they did not see clinton himself as much the issue, it was the people behind the scenes. Now they thought they might use him more by keeping him power longer.

But over the problems people had was with the bigger picture - the world elite.

Look back over time at google.com/unclesam : Clinton and Gore wanted saddam out, said he had wmd, gore said he was a threat, etc.

[datasuspect]

6. i remember those day

was making good money and not bombarded with as much evil, lies, distortion, and manipulation as i see now.

"our great leader is so great and he is only getting greater."

[The Straight Story]

10. Thinking about, maybe they saw clinton as more dangerous

because he was more popular, people were doing better, and complacent.

Can you imagine if bush was not a bumbling idiot who can't speak for crap, and if he had a charming personality and decent looks?

Sure, people would still bitch about the crap pulled - but more people would like him and be swayed to agree that he knew best.

Makes me wonder who the elite will toss out for next election. Cause they sure fucked up on this one :)

[elehhhhna]

7. We must show him no mercy at his trial at the Hague, though.

[datasuspect]

9. he's an imperial president

he'll get as close to the hague as i will to a state dinner at the white house.

does he deserve punishment? yes.

[elehhhhna]

12. I'll take that bet. I believe he will be tried one day.

[The Straight Story]

17. I hope to hell you are right

But when dems don't even fight stolen elections...

[The Straight Story]

16. I don't think most dems will press the issue, reason being

they will say it would make them look partisian and petty and they want to unite americans not divide them, and so on.

The nation, thankfully, is waking up though. The pattern is due to change. Starting with carter:
D(em)-R-R-R-D-D-R-R. And worse yet: carter, reagan/bush, reagan/bush, bush, clinton, clinton, bush, bush...hillary next?

I think people are tired of having the same folks in office (obviously though I must be wrong as they keep getting in there...).

My point with that was I think more and more people are starting to get suspicious about the leadership of this country on both sides of the fence.

That is why I like DemocraticUNDERGROUND - we are not the mainstream dems. We look outside their comfort zones of power and want to hold them accountable and get real leaders in.

[elehhhhna]

18. Think WORLD COURT. Dems party not necessary.

[datasuspect]

22. how could a world court physically remove

bush from this country and try him in another?

i'm sure it could happen that he could be tried in absentia, but the power scheme currently in effect would make any determination by a third party meaningless.

that's if bush and his handlers decide if he is going to give up power in the first place.

[datasuspect]

20. i'm mistrustful of the whole process/system

i think at one point there might have been a difference between republicans and democrats.

and in some cases, there are representatives on both sides who can act with principles.

but the one thing that consistently unites them all is corporate funds and largesse.

they leave public service with rolodexes filled with contacts and end up working for the same lobbies they gave handouts to.

[Lefty48197]

11. Yeah, it's the people that voted for him.

They've aided and abbeted his many crimes.

[stillcool]

13. I think this administration....

is all about the energy industry...and that getting access for that industry is what drives this bus. I don't really think they give a shit about domestic policy at all....it's just a tool they use to create the music by which we all dance.

[datasuspect]

24. energy and defense

war has been and increasingly a very profitable BUSINESS.

the energy industry is critical to prosecuting war. you cannot move soldiers and equipment without fuel.

defense contracting is a big part of the issue too.

[Imagevision]

14. I agree, Bush hasn't the mentality to run a 7-11 new house & senate will

have him spending his last two years cleaning up more "brush" in Crawford.

[Cleita]

15. I always thought Prince Bandar was our real President.

I mean when he snaps his fingers, the Bushistas drop everything to meet with him.

[elehhhhna]

19. NEVER FORGET: Bandar was told about Iraq Invasion BEFORE POWELL.

[Cleita]

23. Here's a recent article about it and a book that

Bob Woodward wrote. These paragraphs are particularly interesting.

But, it turns out, two days before the president told Powell, Cheney and Rumsfeld had already briefed Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador.

”Saturday, Jan. 11, with the president's permission, Cheney and Rumsfeld call Bandar to Cheney's West Wing office, and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Myers, is there with a top-secret map of the war plan. And it says, ‘Top secret. No foreign.’ No foreign means no foreigners are supposed to see this,” says Woodward.

“They describe in detail the war plan for Bandar. And so Bandar, who's skeptical because he knows in the first Gulf War we didn't get Saddam out, so he says to Cheney and Rumsfeld, ‘So Saddam this time is gonna be out, period?’ And Cheney - who has said nothing - says the following: ‘Prince Bandar, once we start, Saddam is toast.’"

After Bandar left, according to Woodward, Cheney said, “I wanted him to know that this is for real. We're really doing it."

But this wasn’t enough for Prince Bandar, who Woodward says wanted confirmation from the president. “Then, two days later, Bandar is called to meet with the president and the president says, ‘Their message is my message,’” says Woodward.

Prince Bandar enjoys easy access to the Oval Office. His family and the Bush family are close. And Woodward told 60 Minutes that Bandar has promised the president that Saudi Arabia will lower oil prices in the months before the election - to ensure the U.S. economy is strong on election day.

Woodward says that Bandar understood that economic conditions were key before a presidential election: “They’re high. And they could go down very quickly. That's the Saudi pledge. Certainly over the summer, or as we get closer to the election, they could increase production several million barrels a day and the price would drop significantly.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml

[Lindacooks]

21. It definitely DOES matter if there is a repuke or a Dem in office.

PLEASE don't go around repeating this worn-out canard.

Just listen to Bill Clinton's speech:

http://liberaltopia.org/?p=1016

He talks about how repukes concentrate power in the hands of the very few: the wealthy, and corporations, while Democrats give power to the middle class, which is the backbone of America. THAT is why the 1990s were so good. Because President Clinton took care of the middle class (as best he could, with a repuke congress).

[datasuspect]

28. okay

don't misunderstand, i agree with you, but the most principled democratic representative will bow down before their local defense contractor's dollars if an appropriation that concerns their district comes up.

and that is my point: that COLLUSION is poisonous. it is corrupt and it taints both parties.

not to mention the totalitarianism lite that we are currently living under. it's hard for anybody who has the access to resist the urge that practically unlimited power can represent.

[TwentyFive]

25. YES!! You get it! Congratulations to you! This is what Clinton talks about

People slam Clinton for saying "George Bush is a good man." but they miss his entire point.

Clinton does a masterful job of clearing the personalities away from the debate. He then lays out what the republicans do and compares it with what the democrats do. He closes with...if you like their policies better, vote for them. If you think we have a better way, vote for us.

Ultimately, this works because it empowers the person you are talking to. It empowers them to make a choice. When we get caught up in the "You're an idiot for voting for the criminal Bush...yada, yada, yada" this gets people's back up and disempowers them. It fails because it does not trust their intellect. If Democrats got onto the Clinton plan, they'd empower the voters while laying out their agenda side-by-side with the opponent.

edit: clarity

[datasuspect]

29. don't get me wrong

i villify george bush the man. i think he is an unqualified piece of shit who disdains us. i have a visceral disgust of his person, voice, and ideas. i have never had this response to another human being. he is an evil, arrogant, and spoiled person. he is what eisenhower warned against, when he said something like god help this country if a president is elected who knows nothing about the military (not an exact quote).

our civil rights are an affront to his power. he speaks of our country's government as "his government."

but he isn't the biggest problem. the system is.

[TwentyFive]

32. my feelings for bush are irrelevant. Its a waste of energy to attack him.

Listen to a recent campaign speech Clinton gave. The man is brilliant.

http://liberaltopia.org/?p=1016

He never attacks Bush or even the republicans on a personal level. He even makes positive assumptions about them. But then he goes in for the kill:

1. He compares the results of liberal vs. conservative policies.
2. Then he asks people to choose one. If you think the they're better, then vote for them....but if you think we have a better way, then vote for us.

Bush is a lame duck. Come 2008, another GOP whore will be campaigning. He/she will just as disgusting as bush. Our real enemy is conservatism.

[datasuspect]

35. actually it isn't even true conservatism that is an enemy

geez, i could only wish we had a conservative like eisenhower running things right now.

what passes for "conservatism" now is plain old fascism.

[yurbud]

27. PROBLEM: peeps & pundits don't discuss puppet masters

I have noticed that while Greg Palast articles and others about the oil machinations in Iraq get voted up here, people don't get excited about those as much as they do the atrocity of the day--even though those are just symptoms, and the oil business is the cause.

Even relatively progressive talk radio hosts like Al Franken and Ed Schultz never talk about the oil motive in detail, though the rest of Air America does, and Pacifica does an excellent job on it.

For most people, that layer above Bush is like a dog whistle. They may be aware that it exists, but they never hear it.


Until they do, these problems will occur again and again, and even if the corporate fascism is beaten back this time, it will come back stronger the next.

[datasuspect]

30. the news industry now is a propaganda organ of the federal government

and they lie, lie, and lie.

[Gregorian]

33. Actually, the problem is THE PEOPLE.

I haven't been fooled by the corporate media. I recognized it when it started. I wasn't fooled by WMD bullshit. I listened to Blix and Ritter. And I had a healthy dose of skepticism judging from how Saddam was placed in power.

It's not about wealth. It's about the American people. And how apathetic they have become. I blame it on ease of living. Petroleum, to be more specific. But that isn't the cause.

The American people are asleep. Half of them, that is. And the other half is lost in the absence of an actual media.

This has been a long gradual slide. But it didn't have to happen. The people just ate it up. It started with things that seemed realistic. Wear your seat belt, or else. Smoke a joint or go to jail. These things seem fairly reasonable. But when you start building jails instead of schools, and people don't stop it right there, then it expands. Our military budget should have never been allowed to grow as large as it did. But lots of people earn their livings that way. And so it goes.

The love of money combined with the need for money has fueled this mess. But ultimately it's awareness and vigilance and responsibility and morality. Now look what our laziness got us into.

America the alcoholic. Get yourself sobered up, and stop beating your wife.

[TahitiNut]

34. He's a pimple on the tumor on the ass of an elephant running amok.

Unless and until we deal with this corruption at the "grass roots" we're missing the boat. As long as there're as many people in this nation who aspire to having some paternal fascist government, we're screwed.

In summary - http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/312

[left is right]

36. Puppet, absolutely

But he is the perfect puppet for the puppet masters' agenda. They would not have gotten nearly as far with almost any other puppet--few would have had the capacity for mean-spiritedness and greed, as well as his incredible lack of vision as our beloved puppet-and-thief