Local Baptist church marquee: "God is impartial"

[jean]

Good food for thought whilst driving past this morning ... the church is in Minnesota. I wonder if a southern Baptist church might express such sentiments.

[JuniperLea]

1. I saw one with a banner that said...

"Join Us Tonight to Pray for Peace"


Wow. Someone gets the real deal, what Christianity is SUPPOSED to be about.

[Olney Blue]

2. Is there a difference between a Minnesota and a Southern Baptist?

[Bobbieo]

4. I'd say so from a political point of view!

[Bill McBlueState]

6. probably

"Southern Baptist" refers to a specific Baptist denomination that has swung well to the right of mainline Protestant churches over the past 25 years. But there are a lot of other Baptist denominations out there, many of which are quite progressive.

[jobycom]

9. Maybe, depends on the church on Minnesota. Southern Baptist is

a specific branch of the Baptist church which spun off in 1845 over, you'll love this, slavery. The Baptist Church was going to condemn slavery, and the Southern Baptist churches created a Biblical argument justifying it. THe SB is the largest branch of the Baptist church, but not all Baptist churches are aligned with it.

Here's Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_church#Baptists_in_the_United_States

The American Baptist Churches USA (ABCUSA) is a branch of Baptists descended from the Triennial Convention. ABCUSA is a mainline Protestant group with roots going back to colonial Rhode Island. While its theology is rooted in the same Confessions of Faith as its more fundamentalist cousins of the SBC (see above) and the National Baptist Convention (see below), the modern ABCUSA is considered to be progressive in both its theology and practice.
--------

Traditionally, many African Americans belong to one or another Baptist groups, most of whom have their origins in the churches that composed the Triennial Convention. The Triennial Convention, which later split into the Southern Baptist Convention and the American Baptist Churches USA (which was known, at the time of the split, as the Northern Baptist Convention), produced most of the homogeneity between the Baptist denominations in the United States.

African American denominations were particularly strong in the American South, where many Baptist churches were segregated like the rest of Southern society. The largest historically African-American group is the National Baptist Convention.
------------

Independent Baptist churches are often completely independent of any association or group. They usually share in the same doctrinal distinctiveness of other Baptists, but they adhere to what they see as a Biblical principle of churches' individuality.

This is contrasted with groups like the Southern Baptists, who share Sunday school curricula through LifeWay Christian Resources and Cooperative Program giving for mutual support of missions and educational activities. Independent Baptists believe that this approach to ministry leaves pastors and people in the church free to work as a local ministry, instead of national work, which, in their view, can be less efficient.




(much more)

[Olney Blue]

11. Thanks, jobycom. Very interesting reading.

:hi:

[Joe Bacon]

3. Sadly, not the ones out here in Los Angeles

You see the usual "Join the Presidential Prayer Team" bullshit dispayed on their electronic signs here, along with plenty of yellow ribbons. You might even catch Tony Orlando doing the Jesus Circuit here, too!

[yardwork]

5. Baptists are supposed to be independent

Southern Baptists have told me, here in NC, that the premise of the Baptist movement is individual choice from church to church. Each congregation is supposed to have the freedom and responsibility to choose their values.

I've been told that it is highly un-Baptist for the Convention to tell Baptist congregations what they can and can't do, and who they can and can't support. Unfortunately, in the 1980s the right-wingers made a nest of the Southern Baptist Convention and, although many congregations have resisted, there's been a strong push to centralize decision-making.

[RB TexLa]

16. And those who disagre with the right wing that took over

didn't stay to fight, they left and pretty much let them have it. I'm not blaming them, I know quite a few of them. They didn't want their entire time spent with the church to be church politics and left.

[yardwork]

17. I don't blame them for leaving, either

I left the Episcopal church many years ago because of their ongoing homophobia (disguised as "making slow progress" - reeeeeeeal slow).

Maybe I should have stayed and fought, but I'm happier now as a Pagan.

[catbert836]

7. Better than this one!

Or this one:



These two are unitentionally hilarious:

[Kagemusha]

8. God is impartial? You're kidding me? Someone said that?

I wonder what scripture that's from. And I speak as an atheist, former Catholic, and I don't remember reading anything about God being impartial - he's on his own side, the holy side. And I don't see how most people can believe in such a thing as a neutral God - too squishy for people to accept.

There are better words for the concept being promoted there, IMHO.

[Olney Blue]

10. I'm wondering if this sign was directed against taking sides in the

current wars going on in the world.

[jobycom]

14. A couple of Scriptures

1 Peter 1:17:

17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
---

Romans 2

1Therefore you have (A)no excuse, (B)everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which (C)you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

---------

Passage Acts 10:34:

34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
---------------------

[Kagemusha]

15. That's context the original statement was wholly devoid of.

Fine if it's about God being an impartial JUDGE, but that's not what was said. It said he's impartial, period. A quick reading of the Old Testament should completely disabuse any Christian of this notion.

[jobycom]

18. Not devoid, just ambiguous.

You read what you did into it, I read what I did. Secret of a great doctrinal proclamation, isn't it? Make it mean whatever people want it to mean?

Besides, I disagree that the original statement is devoid of the meaning in the passages I quoted. A god who is impartial on his specific judgements has to be impartial about the people he is judging. The passages I cited don't limit the judgements to Christians, they warn Christians that it is not their place to make judgements. One can easily conclude that also means about other religions and cultures. How do you know that's not eactly what this church was meaning to say? For that matter, even the conservative anti-Semitic Billy Graham warned Governor W Bush about that when Bush claimed he did not believe Jews would go to Heaven. Judge not lest ye be judged. The Old Testament is full of God judging people, but by his standards. Nothing requires a believer to believe that those decisions are biased or arbitrary. A believer can believe each of those judgements was impartial, based upon God's law.

Not that I care much. I'm an atheist and former Catholic, too. And former Methodist, and former evangelical. Some people experiment with drugs, my mother experimented with religions while I was growing up.

[itzamirakul]

29. Your mother sounds like quite an interesting lady...

I bet growing up with her was quite a fun experience. :) (or maybe I should say that looking back on it is fun?)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. No One Better Than An Atheist To Preach To Me About Religious Philosophy.

With all due respect of course. It's just the irony of it I guess. For example, I would find myself with the same reaction if Cheney or Rumsfeld tried preaching to me about the true meaning of peace. I would just think there would be others more viable to hear it from, is all.

[Kagemusha]

22. I'm sorry, did I make some reply to you? Did I preach to you?

I wasn't aware I was doing any such thing.

If you took it personally, well I don't see how, but sorry. I'm moving on.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Conceptually Of Course.

And I didn't say I was offended, as it would be ridiculous to be offended at such a thing. It was merely an observation of the irony of someone who doesn't believe in God stating so confidently what God's manner is. As an additional example, I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't believe in ghosts to confidently state what it feels like to be in one's presence either.

No biggie really.

[Kagemusha]

24. The dripping venemous contempt oozes through your words.

It's silly, and it's misplaced, and I have no beef with you, and am amazed to have you go through the trouble of lording over me what a small person I am, unworthy to speak about anything at all unless I believe what others believe. I have ears, and I can listen; I have eyes, and I can read. And my eyes and ears see and hear what the Bible and numerous Christians say about God, and it is, in my experience, an extreme rarity for someone to argue that God does not take sides. As you can easily read above, others do not believe that's what the message that "God is impartial" actually meant. Well fine. But there's a huge difference in arguing that God is objective, and arguing that God is a disinterested bystander who holds his own philosophy and beliefs to be irrelevant in the forming of decisions.

But you jumped on a thread hours after the fact and saw that oh lookie, an atheist posted something about "God's manner" (actually, I was addressing the manner in which God is held to be by tangible flesh and blood Christians). So you came after me to chew me out because, well, that's what you do, I guess.

Save it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. Yet It Is Not Me Coming Off As So Bitter. Ease Up There.

Try not to take such offense. And yes, maybe you have ears and can listen, but can you truly understand and speak to the deep workings of a being of whom by being atheist you declare to not even truly exist? That's not a knock or something for you to take such offense to, it's just simple logic. Firstly, I am of the spirituality that no mortal can truly understand or judge the Lord's intentions and would be a fool by doing so. The best we can do is believe in what we feel strongly but cannot declare it as fact. Second, I would think that if one was to offer a deeply held wisdom into the Lord's will that they would at least as a prerequisite have to even believe in his existance. Is that not logical to assume? This has nothing to do with knocking you for being an atheist, as you have that right as much as I do to not be. It is an observation completely outside the context of religion, that one cannot truly speak with wisdom on a subject in which they deny or dismiss the existance of.

And for the record, in terms of religious philosophy, impartial in this context means that the Lord has given every one of us the ability to be righteous and to seek wisdom until we attain an understanding and practice that allows us to enter the kingdom of heaven. Impartial means that the Lord does not weigh any race, gender or other distinction of human being as being more or less worthy. It means that all humans will be judged equally on their actions for what their actions had been. It is much like a judge is to be impartial: Everyone appearing before them are innocent until their actions have proven otherwise. So the sign on the church is basically just stating that no matter who you are, whether democrat, republican, black, white, male, female etc... that you are judged the same and have the same ability to walk amongst the righteous in the kingdom of heaven.

Well, it's gettin late. Goodnight.

[Kagemusha]

26. You just refused to read what I said in that last post. *sigh*

I don't know, and frankly don't care, if God is really impartial or not. I just know that is NOT how he's presented by Christians in general, and not by the Old Testament at all, starting with picking the Jews as his chosen people. That's not being impartial. That's being partial to those who follow his ways. There's nothing wrong with that. But that context is completely lacking from a sign saying "God is impartial", which is trying to reduce a reasoned argument to a soundbyte, and I'm sorry, it doesn't work.

Bottom line is, you were looking for someone's head to bite off and found me, even though I was trying to mind my own business as a responsible poster. Goodnight, and I hope our paths never cross again.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. First Off, Please Stop Taking This So Personally.

I was not and had no desire to bite your head off.

Secondly, you did raise some good points there and I do see what you were trying to say. But I think the Lord is far more than any testament has declared him to be. I'm actually not even a christian, and am just deeply spiritual. I therefore have my own beliefs and guidance into what I believe to be the Lord's way but as I said earlier I am not of the belief that any of us truly know. I simply am on a constant path of seeking that wisdom the best I can.

Regardless, I was just making observations and had no intention of biting anyone's head off and my apologies if it came off as such.

Goodnight and peace.

[NMMNG]

28. With all due respect,

Kagemusha did say he was formerly a Catholic (and many atheists are former Christians), so that makes him as qualified to discuss religious philosophy as any currently religious person. I was a Christian for 20 years, attended church, studied the Bible and read many a religious/inspirational book. Just because I no longer believe doesn't mean all that I learned had vanished from my mind.

And it's a truism that many atheists know more about the Bible than some Christians--particularly Fundamentalist Christians.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. And many of his followers are decidedly NOT. n/t

[RB TexLa]

13. My fav was a couple of months ago -This is a segregated church -

then below it, "Sinners only"

Defiantly turns your head.

I have seen a few Southern Baptist churches that would have signs such as the one you saw. I assume you meant Southern Baptist as in the Southern Baptist convention, right? Or just a Baptist church of any affiliation that happens to be southern in location? It really depends on the pastor at the local church and if the enough of the congregation follows. Remember that is their thing, local autonomy, of course if the congregation doesn't agree they "vote" him out.

[pitohui]

19. i don't understand that marquee

the christian god is not impartial, we are saved by grace -- in other words, god picks and chooses favorites, the rest go to hell

i know there are different sects but if you don't believe that much, i don't see how you can call yourself a christian, much less a baptist

you sure the marquee wasn't altered by pranksters

[jean]

20. The marquee was double-sided, both sides said the same thing. "God

is impartial."

My first thought was do they mean "impartial judge?" Judgement? Of what, by whom?

After that, judge not lest you be judged (or however it is worded) came to mind. I'm not the judge but a player. What is my part, my role?

The church is Parkers Lake Baptist Church, in Plymouth, Minnesota.