THE DEATH OF THE PC: Dell Posts a 51% DECLINE

[berni_mccoy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060818/ap_on_bi_ge/earns_dell

Computer maker Dell Inc. posted a 51 percent decline in net earnings for its second quarter Thursday and said regulators were investigating its accounting. The company's shares fell in after-hours trading.

This is the same qtr that Apple posted RECORD SALES of the Mac.

[MadMaddie]

1. Holy shit....the battery recall (Sony batteries)

didn't help....whooo....this will be bad!!

[liberaldemocrat7]

78. Buy a Dell, contribute to the GOP.

Buy a Dell, contribute to the GOP.

[MindPilot]

295. Funny thing though; those Sony batteries don't catch fire

when they are in Sony laptops.

[nolabels]

2. Dells suck

Build your own, it's way more fun :-)

[Renew Deal]

7. True

:party:

[MrModerate]

20. Pretty difficult to build your own laptop . . .

Also, even though I have built a few desktops myself, I've never gotten the efficiency/speed out of 'em that I get with a name brand (I've had a Dell and two HPs), even at about the same price and comparably rated components.

Presumably this is my fault and there's a matter of selecting the right components and tuning them once they're assembled, but I finally concluded that the PC manufacturers are better engineers than I am (not hard to believe, since I'm actually an editor).

[MercutioATC]

24. Actually, you can now buy barebones laptops...

...and provide your own CPU, hard drive and memory.

It's not the same as building your own PC, but it's a step in the right direction.

[B3Nut]

177. Asus makes great barebone laptops

We build them at work. You can jazz 'em up about any way you want, too. And they're fun to put together!

Funny thing...Dell is going to be contracting with Asus to manufacture their new laptops. Most of their current ones are made by Compal, who also make the HP/Compaq laptops.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[MercutioATC]

180. The Asus S91j is the one I'm looking at.

I should be able to build the laptop I want for $200-$300 less than it's cost me to buy.

[B3Nut]

184. We've got the Z7100's...

nice wide screen. Solid Intel chipset, we've been putting Pentium-M 1.8's in. Works just ducky....

TP

[dkofos]

285. Will they be getting those great self igniting batteries

from sony??

[nolabels]

40. It's getting so much easier nowadays

As long as one has easy access to web from another computer for hard card updates or other info it even seems too dang simple. Shopping around for deals is also fun, the differences in prices from dealers for the same components can really make you wonder also

I picked up some of the parts for my last two builds here
http://www.pcclub.com/stores.cfm

Really not much more difficult than picking out camping gear or another wardrobe

[Atman]

44. You know what is WICKED EASY?

Opening a box and plugging in your new Mac, then pressing the ON switch. It starts up. In five minutes or so, you're online. Unless you want to edit some digital vid, burn some discs, publish a photo album or create a web site. To do that, you actually have to click a different icon. Damn. I sure wish I had the same sense of "fun" you guys did. Instead of reading DU right now, I could be tweaking my CPU's clock speed to gain an extra billionth of a second on my porn download times!

[blogslut]

100. MACs

...are for people that don't know how to program computers. :)

Okay, that's mean. I apologize.

[Atman]

112. That's okay with me! I don't know how to repair car engines, either.

And I still drive a nice car.

[Tesha]

175. It's also technically incorrect.

> MACs are for people that don't know how to program computers. :)

It's also technically incorrect. I and many people I
know can program just fine, thanks, and we use Macs.
It's just that we get paid for actually programming
computers and not for removing virii, spam, spyware,
defragging, and all the other ten billion timewasters
and distracters that PC people waste their time upon.

But I know you already knew that. ;)

Tesha

[kiki]

287. And yet you still

apparently feel the need
to hit return at the end
of each line, as if you
were using a typewriter.

Sorry to be mean, but it always makes me laugh when people do that. :)

[jayctravis]

256. I'm a satisfied Mac convert.

You're right, they aren't for hardcore "tinkerers" but they come with the stuff an average consumer wants; music, photo, and home video editing and management, hassle-free CD burning and DVD authoring, and ridiculously easy connection to internet. They don't require a ton of maintenence, and the iMac I have could live happily and wirelessly (save the power cord) on a coffee-table. It's a polite, fun, machine that looks great. The virus/malware issues are low to nil.

[JHB]

107. I know you! You're in those Mac commercials!

Reads like the script, anyway.

Besides, if we all had Macs, we wouldn't have this: :argh: Would we? :loveya:

[MrModerate]

133. I've used Macs, and they're easy enough to use . . .

But I really hate the operating system. Too restrictive, too many clicks to get to where you want to go. Not to mention the plexiglas shield between the user and system settings.

Oh, and then there's the price. For the initial hardware. And the software. And the peripherals.

Other than that, yeah sure, they're great.

[Atman]

136. Other than the lack of facts in your post, I agree with you.

Too many clicks? That is just goofy! I use Windows, too, and anything you can do with one click on the Mac takes six in Windows. And I don't know what you're talking about the system settings. Maybe you just don't know how to do it? You can access anything you want to access. Have you tried a Mac since System 7???? And the price comparison has been debunked so many times it isn't even funny. Feature for feature, quality for quality, Apples are no pricier than any other brand name PC. So, other than all the things you're wrong about, you're right.

[MrModerate]

138. Debunk away. Dollar for dollar, Macs are substantially more expensive.

I've bought a number of name-brand Windows machines and they're 60% of the cost of an equivalent Mac. Feature for feature comparisons are only valid if you consider that the feature adds value. And yes, I have used OS X and find it clunky compared to Windows.

I'd like to support Apple, Steve Jobs being a progressive sort and all, but I just can't justify the coolness tax Apple insists on levying.

[Atman]

140. Well, here's a start...

BTW, what you call a "coolness tax," I call "paying for quality." I've NEVER had a single Mac go in for repairs. Not once, since my first MacII in 1987. And they all still run.

--------

If you caught the Mac Pro’s introduction during last week’s Worldwide Developers Conference keynote, you know that Phil Schiller, Apple’s senior vice president for worldwide product marketing, punctuated his demo of the new high-end desktop by uttering the “D” word—Dell. Specifically, Schiller brought up Dell to compare its price to the standard 2.66GHz Mac Pro Quad’s $2,499 price tag. By Schiller’s math, a similarly configured Dell Precision 690 would run you $3,448—around $950 more than the Mac Pro.

That’s an eye-catching figure, especially in light of the widely held perception that Macs are more expensive than their PC counterparts. But is it an accurate figure? To double-check Apple’s math, I went on a virtual shopping spree. My mission: configure a Mac Pro and a comparably-featured Dell model and see how their prices measured up.
The ghost of price comparisons past

I’ve become something of a veteran of the price-comparison game, writing several articles stacking up various Mac systems against “comparable” offerings from Dell, including a three-part series on the original Mac mini, and two more articles on the MacBook Pro. Now the point to these previous articles—which can get lost amid the numbers— is not that Macs are necessarily cheaper than Dells; you’ll always be able to find a cheaper low-end Dell if you try, because Dell lets you strip away features to save money (something Apple has declined to do). Rather, the point was that Macs and comparably-equipped, brand-name Windows PCs tend to be roughly comparable on price these days. That old notion that you have to pay up to use a Mac often isn’t the case any more.

That said, my earlier comparisons were admittedly imperfect. For example, it was tough to compare a Mac mini with a Dell because the Mac mini is a full-featured computer in a tiny case, whereas Dell’s budget computers are stripped-down minitowers. And at the time I looked at the MacBook Pro, Apple had only a 15-inch high-end laptop, while Dell’s only Core-Duo laptops were budget consumer models. In fact, any comparison of products aimed at different markets is going to require some degree of upgrading on one side or the other if you want the products to be “comparable”—and some of those upgrades include items that some users may not care about but which ultimately inflate the price of one of the computers.

http://www.macworld.com/2006/08/features/macproprice/index.php

----

Sometime last year, I wrote an editorial comparing the price of Apple's new iMac G5 with a comparably equipped PC to see which of the two was less expensive. Apple has a reputation for selling "premium-priced" hardware and I've found that not to be true as Apple's prices are in fact less expensive. To the surprise of many, the iMac turned out to be nearly $250 less than an equally equipped DIY PC.

Apple's incorrect premium-priced reputation was best summarized by osViews's editor's prelude to my editorial: "The reason for stems from the fact that Apple doesn't allow you to build your own computer from commodity parts. But that doesn't make PCs less expensive... though it does make the Mac less configurable."

(I can't get the link to work...here is the Google page; fifth item down. Use the CACHED page -- http://www.google.com/search?q=Mac+PC+price+comparison&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official )

[MrModerate]

159. Looked around the link you suggested and . . .

Also went to Apple's and Dell's sites. Found the Mac Mini and the Dell E510 to be neck-and-neck hardware/software-wise, with the exception that the Dell comes with a mouse, keyboard, 17" LCD monitor, and sorta-useful inkjet printer. While these last four items are not so pricey, they do represent a better out-of-the-box experience for the first-time user, or for someone who wants to get a complete package. I think the advantage is still with the Windows machines (but to be honest, maybe not the 60% price differential I cited above).

For me, it's a matter of personal preference. I know Windows very well and can get it to do whatever I want; I don't like how the OS X interface works, and I think there's still a price advantage on the Windows side.

[conflictgirl]

214. I agree that, overall, Macs are more expensive

However, the new Mac Mini is really incredibly reasonable. I just ordered one, and even despite increasing the memory and the size of the hard drive above standard, it still clocked in at less than $800. You really can't beat that. Since I already had a keyboard, mouse and monitor, it seemed like a great deal to me.

I am just a normal user and not much of a computer fanatic, so maybe there's some significant functionality I'll lose by opting for the Mac mini over the more expensive models. Of course I know that the more expensive models usually have advantages. But I'm happy that this model made it possible for me to afford a Mac.

For me it's not about coolness factor at all, it's about the fact that Microsoft has increasingly been an absolutely huge pain in my ass and I wanted to get away from them.

[jayctravis]

257. The price may seem steep...

But you need to figure that unless you're running severe business software, most of what you need is built into the operating system.

I haven't bought *any* software for the Mac. I did buy some RAM which slips easily into a niche panel under the screen.

I am, however, thinking of getting Delicious Library, which uses the built-in iSight camera (which I swore I'd never use) as a barcode reader to graphically catalog your movies, books, games, and music.

As a long time PC user the whole experience has been "why didn't I try this sooner?" I still love my PC for 3D action games, but it's like starting up a lawnmower now compared to the iMac.

[mike_c]

46. "PC engineers" are largely a myth at the level of most consumer...

...machines. The motherboard features and other components are "engineered" by their manufacturers and are either widely available stock items or cut-rate bulk purchase special runs, and companies like Dell simply make purchase agreements based largely on marketing considerations, i.e. "this quarter we want to hit x, y, and z price/performance points." The point is that ANYONE can do the same thing by reading the specs of components you can purchase off the shelf, and nine times out of ten they're better than the equipment you'd get for an equivalent price from a reseller like Dell. It doesn't take a great deal of skill to build a very nice desktop computer for considerably less than the purchase price of a lesser machine with a corporate logo on the front.

[MrModerate]

135. I must be the tenth one, then, because . . .

Even when I've carefully researched components, assured myself of their compatibility, and comparison-shopped to get the right deal, once I get the thing together I just can't get the type of performance I expect -- and other self-assemblers report. To be honest, we're only talking my last two desktops, so maybe this isn't statistically significant.

It may be some simple thing -- like the fact that I've kept some components from an older machine (e.g., the drives) and that's slowing the whole system down -- but I can't get the speed I need. So I'm willing to pay a bit more for a name brand that some hardware-savvy guy on the factory floor (not necessarily a PC engineer) knows how to get the most out of. I used to get no-name clones from little shops around town, but I've now moved to a place where there ARE no such shops conveniently at hand, so I'm on my own.

Not saying you're wrong, just that it hasn't worked so well for me.

[Irreverend IX]

203. You may want to visit PC hardware forums.

At places like Tom's Hardware and Neoseeker.com, there are forums for people building computers, and they can give advice and point out any problems in your proposed computer configuration.

[MrModerate]

269. Thanks -- I'll check 'em out n/t

[mwooldri]

163. Well Dell's doing something right for making PC's cheap...

... because as a so-called certified A+ technician (someone who has been certified as a 3rd party as being able to put a PC together from components off the shelf) I can't buy parts to make PCs at the same cost that Dell uses to churn out a desktop PC. The only way I'd come close is if I had access to wholesale pricing of the components and if I did, then I might be able to come close.

I'd also like to debunk one thing: since Dell can buy in such large volumes, some of their motherboards are proprietary to Dell. Gateway, Compaq (now HP) and even back in ye days Packard Bell were using their own proprietary components, so it was not a matter of taking stuff off from the shelf because they had at least had a great big say-so in the design of the main part of the computer - the motherboard.

[EST]

35. I would love to build my own and am certainly capable, but,

when my main box died (a Saeger laptop,) I bought this two year old Dell desktop for three hundred bucks. Hard to beat. Impossible to build at that price. (sigh)

[DainBramaged]

39. And how many PC's did you sell last month?

[nolabels]

62. I have a job that I am happy with and mostly just help..........

relatives and Friends fix and build theirs. I am a just freaking novice computers. My occupation for the last 30yrs, truck mechanic. I have dabbled and effed around with P.C.s since the 386's came out. I just mostly do for the fun, no harm no foul.

If you fix them and or build them you can have just so much more appreciation of what it's all about. The entire business has came so far with them in the last 10 yrs or so that it is just amazing. It seems almost a shame to let someone else do what is really kind a fun hobby

[DainBramaged]

210. So true

But some folks still think the issue is worth fighting about. PC's are now appliances. when you can get a PC that is more powerful than anything you built three years ago for $289, what's the point of arguing with the Mac cheesers?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

95. Yeah, but they still suck.

A mac can do anything a PC can. As for "oh, businesses need PCs" that's pretty much crap. My step-dad runs an entire company off of Apples.

[DainBramaged]

209. Oh goodie, I am so happy for you, want some candy?

:sarcasm:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

245. Nah, I don't really like candy.

Got any sushi?

[stepnw1f]

263. lol...(nt)

[DainBramaged]

283. Good one, hope you are well.

[lvx35]

3. viva la mac!

I just amde the switch to mac after 13 years PC usage, and I recommend it to anybody. I can run Linux apps, windows apps, and mac apps. It rocks.

[Elwood P Dowd]

11. Two of my friends recently made the switch

They are freaking out over their new Macs. Like you said, the Macs can run Windows, Linux, or Apple's latest OS 10.

[lvx35]

18. I freaked out over mine...

A comparable PC as far as windows performance is about $900, my mac was $1100...but that $200 was soooo worth it....Just the music recording blew my mind, I've tooled around with it in windows for years, and always had problems with things like latency, but the mac not only came with multi-track recording software and amazing synths but had near zero latency recording and monitoring (with effects) so it dropped a recording studio in my lap....And the whole thing being based on open source software (BSD) just blew my mind as a linux guy.

Okay, I will stop drooling now. But I like it! ;)

[Elwood P Dowd]

Spread the word

Lots of anti-Apple posters hang around here.

[DainBramaged]

38. Lots of anti-PC/Dell posters too

I wrote this long post, then just deleted it. It doesn't matter.

When 99% of the world changes their PC preference to MAC, maybe I'll switch. Until then, I'm quite happy with the cheap PC I got from Dell, as are the other 99% of computer owners of the world the world.

[berni_mccoy]

43. When 99% of the world changes .. to Mac... Not an early adopter are ya?

Well, 20 million Mac Users are waiting for you... but their not holding their breath... their listening to music, watching movies and shows, playing games and sharing videos (that they edited) and photos with their friends and families.

[OwnedByFerrets]

49. I dont care one way or another......to each his own....

but you act like a pc CANT do those things. I do them with my pc every day and honestly, I never get the blue screen of death anymore. I am happy you are happy with your Mac.....just as I am happy with my Dell :)

[DainBramaged]

58. So can I what's your point?

Oh wait, no point. The Mac can do nothing better than a PC. And now that they have the same cpus, I guess only ego is left.

[Touchdown]

69. You can, but....

You do it slower, more cumbersome, and with less elegance than Mac users do. I saw a friend load up his 60 shots into his black book whatever, fiddled with something, started draggging all 60 of those pictures into another program so he can give us a slideshow. Took him about 15-20 minutes, not including card reader loading. I took my 85 shots, dropped them into iPhoto on my 3 year old powerbook, and pushed play. About 5 minutes including card reader loading.

Final Cut Pro is the rated by pros the best video editing software available, and it's NOT ON WINDOWS.
Aperture is a revolutionary way for pro photographers to edit and archive their work, all working natively in Camera Raw, with no damage to the original. It's not on Windows either.



How did I just do that? I clicked once on the picture and draggged it into DU. How many, clicks, buttons, copys, pastes and highlights do you have to go through to post that pic?

[Irreverend IX]

205. "Slower, more cumbersome, less elegance?"

Good thing I wasn't drinking anything. What I call "cumbersome" is having to click through a dozen Word windows to find the document I'm looking for because there's no taskbar. Or having to use one of those one-button, wheelless mice that Steve Jobs only just realized were an utter usability disaster. Or having to wrestle with the Finder's schizophrenic behavior and crackheaded multi-column directory display system. And iTunes and iPhoto are nice for no-brainer photo and music browsing, but iPhoto is useless for serious photo organizing and iTunes creates lots of copies of each mp3 you import, quickly filling your hard drive if you have a big music collection. Back in the day I didn't care much about Macs, but working in an all-Mac office for four years made me despise the Mac interface. Not that Windows isn't equally craptacular; I've been using Linux exclusively since 2002 and it improves exponentially every year.

[Touchdown]

221. Word isn't an Apple ap. It's guess who.

No task bar? It's not Apple's fault.

The mouse is useless. Spotlight is much better than finder. It just appeared on Tiger. And Longh...excuse me, Vista will have a dierect copy of it.
on iPhoto So? There's Aperture. iTunes? Not from an original CD. It fills up youur hard drive if you are bootlegging songs.

I'm sure at this all Mac workplace of yours, your boss, work enviromnet, co-workers, hours, commute, vacation and benefits had nothing to do with your attitude about this, does it?:sarcasm:

Linux is for tweakers and technoweenies. I'm a photographer. I don't need to know how to build a transmission in order to drive my car. Worrying about white balance, color accuracy, exposure, depth of field, ISO settings, and composition take up too much of my time to learn how to code every fucking thing I want to do.

[Irreverend IX]

246. Say what?

My old job was one of the best and most enjoyable I ever had, save for the computers we had to use. We had a cluster of six Mac Minis, half of which were stuck in beachball paralysis at any given time. The Power Macs were a bit more reliable, thankfully, but they still gave us ample opportunities to admire the crash messages. I'll give Apple credit for one thing--their BSOD is a lot prettier than Microsoft's. And I happen to be a photographer as well, and I've never had to write one line of code in order to use Linux. Ubuntu, the Linux version I use, installs like a breeze and has a selection of more than 10,000 free programs that you can instantly download and install on your system, something MS and Apple can't touch. I'm sure Aperture is great if you enjoy pouring trashbags of money down Apple's throat, but Linux's GQView is free and provides a tighter, more streamlined interface than any other image browsing program I've used. It does require a couple clicks to view EXIF data, but that's only something I need to look at once in a while anyway.

And what do you mean it's not Apple's fault that there's no taskbar? The taskbar is part of a desktop environment, and it's something Apple chose to omit in favor of the clumsy dock. Multiple Word windows are just an example; multiple windows in any text-oriented program and especially Finder are a royal pain to handle. Apple decided that the best way to switch between multiple windows is Expose, which is a great way to compare a few photos but sucks royally when the windows are full of text. And, being Apple, they have decided that their way is the one true way and anyone who wants to do things a different way is SOL.

And that's not even getting into Apple's "issues" with freedom of the press. Any company that sues journalists will never see a dime of my money.

[Touchdown]

271. Aperture isn't just image browsing.

It's storage, maipulation, editing, comparisoning(is that a word?), categorizing and it does all that without altering the original RAW files, or loading up the HD with copies. Everything is stored as the original shot and stacks on edited versions on top of it. It also depends on which kind of photographer you are. If you are an amateur or a hobbyist, and take about 50 shots a week, it may not be for you. For me, with 400+ shot weddings, or 250 shot fashion shoots, I find it an essential time save and worth the $300.

You have to explain that journalist suit thing. You act as if it's a Jon Benet given that everybody knows this. My assumption is that it's a libel suit about Steve Jobs. If that's it it happens all the time, by any egomaniac in any industry. Speaking of which...you see Kill Bill, Cars or Pirates of the Carribean yet? If so, you gave money to a company that sues journalists..."Walt Disney: Hollywood's Dark Prince"

[Irreverend IX]

279. I Googled "apple sues journalists..."

And this is the first thing that comes up:

http://www.ojr.org/ojr/stories/050125glaser/

Egomaniacs may like to file libel suits, but most companies have the decency not to sic lawyers on their own fanbase when they write about upcoming products. And it's been more than a decade since I watched any Disney movies; pop culture doesn't interest me much.

As for Aperture, I've heard about its features. I'd rather use a collection of small programs that each do a task very well than one big program that can't match their flexibility. In my case, I keep clients' rights agreements and invoices in the file folders with their pictures, and image managers that handle all storage themselves don't lend themselves to this kind of organization. My shoots have ranged from 10 to 1000 images, and I've had no problems so far. And I'll be surprised if you tell me you work up your shots in Aperture instead of Photoshop.

[Touchdown]

280. Your talking about industrial secrets.

Well, since Gates practically bankrupted them by stealing their ideas and promising the same things in the 80s and 90s, it's certainly understandable. This is still a fairly new industry, so nobody takes notice when GM sues Motor Trend for publishing a shot of their new car on the proving grounds I guess.

Ap bridges to PS. It can do some editing, like noise reduction, color balance and sharpening better than PS, but it doesn't have any creative filters that PS has. PS is an editor only. Aperture is the rest of the job, and yes, since I have hot pixels, I use PS. Ap sends it as a PSD, I edit it, save, and Ap picks it back up when I click on the workspace again, reconverting it automatically back to RAW. Ap calls their files "Projects", and opening a new one is just one click. The most time consuming thing I do is name my final pics (I can't remember names). Once done, opening a new or multiple albums within that project is just one click. Sending album to a Powerbook's iPhoto for showing clients is a few more clicks, but they're working on it. Ap's slide show is stop motion herky jerky, iPhoto's is smooth.

That's a good idea you gave me. I should scan in my model releases and invoices to these as well. Never thought of that. I'm just keeping hard copies in a plastic file box. Thanks!:hi:

[jayctravis]

259. Right there's no taskbar, but have you heard of Expose'?

If I get lost, I put the mouse in the bottom right corner of the screen and immediately every window spreads out. I click the one I want on top and they shuffle back together in the new order.

You can also alt...er...apple-tab through apps.

I agree about the mouse. I did get a microsoft wheel mouse with a right button and it's great. Option-left click substitutes as a right click if you need it...but seriously if your'e in the app you want, your entire right mouse button menu is permanently at the top of the screen!

Finder has two neat buttons that will switch from column to icon or list view.

There's no registry to go senile.

Installing is "drag the application into the folder"

Uninstalling is "drag the application to the trash"

And networking is transparent.

Oh, and screenshots -- being able to crop a screenshot before it saves is perfection.

[Irreverend IX]

261. Expose isn't much use...

When you have dozens of windows open. It's nice for comparing photos, or switching between a few applications whose windows look different, but if you've got a bunch of windows open in a text editor it'll be hard to tell one document from another when that text gets shrunken down. I have about 50 windows open in Ubuntu Linux right now, and the well-designed taskbar combined with the multiple desktops allow me to find anything quickly. Apple-tabbing is, again, sufficient if you have just a few windows, but if you have a lot it's like repeatedly flipping through a big book to find the page you were looking for. A taskbar lets you see a list of everything you have open, and without that master list available I feel like I'm fumbling in the dark to find the window I want.

Finder's view modes aren't the problem... the problem is that Finder itself is very limited. You can't view a nested directory tree beside the main window, which usually forces you to open two Finder windows if you want to drag files from one folder to another. Also, Finder windows don't seem to enjoy Expose-ing. It's great that OSX has no registry and it's so easy to install and uninstall things; if I used Windows, I'm sure I would really appreciate that stuff. But bashing Windows is kind of like throwing things at the drooling, paper-eating kid in your second grade class. In Ubuntu, I can use a special program to automatically install thousands of different open source applications on my machine from big repositories online. I don't need to install applications off CDs or find places online to download them; Ubuntu provides a one-stop source for just about any application I want. For most other apps, all I need to do is download and double-click the package file and installation is automatic.

[jayctravis]

265. Taskbar is fine, but with 50 windows they're all going to be

smushed together anyway. It's a good thing there are different platforms for different people.

Finder is one of the apps that people do complain about; it's predicted to get an overhaul for Leopard.

Ubuntu is its own...beast. I've read a teeny bit about it, but I can't imagine it's something a first-time user would be interested in.

[Irreverend IX]

266. That's what multiple desktops are for.

When your 50 windows are spread over four desktops, the taskbar tabs are plenty big. Maybe you should try Ubuntu and see how usable it is; you can download live CDs that let you test-drive it without even installing it on your hard drive. Its main barrier to new users is the need to install it, whereas Win and Mac OSes come pre-installed, but once it's installed many Windows and Mac users have made the transition without a hitch. And there are a few companies that now sell pre-built PCs with Ubuntu and other Linux distros pre-installed.

[Touchdown]

272. Multi-desk tops are coming in Leopard.

It's a shame that they didn't do it before, as I've been using them at work for years on Unix. And Spotlight on Tiger sounds like what you are talking about with your Ubuntu finder. What OSX version were these Minis running? If Panther or before, then you didn't see Spotlight, which for me replaced the use of finder as soon as I downloaded Tiger and learned what it was for. So I guess Apple is a little late on a few things.

[DainBramaged]

206. (sigh) the computer is no longer and appendage, but an appliance

For so many of us, the wonder and awe of ALL things computer has worn off. And since I don't need to do fancy tricks with images, I guess I am not worthy.:sarcasm:

[Touchdown]

219. Well good for you. I prefer an ice maker with my fridge.

...and A/C in my house. And it's not about being worthy. It's about working with your appliance, as opposed to working on it.

[DainBramaged]

232. You can always make more money but you can't make more time

where do you get the notion that we have to work on our pc's? These days, with lifespans well exceeding usefulness and depreciation, they belong in the garbage instead of on the workbench, just like vcr's.

[Scout1071]

148. Early adopter?

My stepdad got his first Apple in the late '70's. They've been arond forever, so I wouldn't call most of the Mac users on this board "early adopters."

By the way, did you mean "adapter?"

[CrushTheDLC]

75. You're surprised to find anti-Dell posters at DEMOCRATIC Underground??

Surely you are aware that Michael Dell is a close personal friend of the Chimp?

Besides, the computers themselves are cheap, disposable, self-combusting pieces of shit.

As for the new Windows compatible MAC's, I'll wait for the price drop. I can run Windows and Linux on any PC and 2 out of three operating systems ain't bad if it keeps me from spending over $2000 on a decent computer, which you still have to do in the MAC universe.

[DainBramaged]

207. and Clinton is friends with Poppy, so what?

Not one single computer maker is blue. With that, should I use and abacus with tomato sauce cans and string?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

247. Actually, there's at least one...

http://www.buyblue.org/node/251/view/summary

:dilemma:

[globalvillage]

276. Gateway

Very blue.

http://www.buyblue.org/node/976/view/summary

[DainBramaged]

286. Lets ask our friends here how many own Gateway's now

I bet the owls and crickets will be heard first. Not "my parents own one" or "I used to own one, wahhh I count". NO how many own and use one now. I just busted up a Gateway notebook for parts to sell on EBAY, 2 years old, because the lcd went bad. Cheaper to buy a NEW DELL than replace the LCD screen.

Junk

[stepnw1f]

262. Apple is not Blue?(nt)

[DainBramaged]

284. Steve Jobs sold out yearsa ago, he's just the fav here now

China, Mr. Jobs favorite country of origin.

[zreosumgame]

170. yes?

and you have a problem with other people making a choice not based on 'style' rather then on performance?

[alfredo]

45. Our local CompUSA got some of the new Mac Pro's in and

they sold out before they even made the show room floor. They can't keep Macs on display because they sell out so fast. They did have the Black MacBook. and some G4 Macs, but the new stuff is selling like wildfire.

Oh, as Quad Xeon would make life so much better.

[Atman]

51. I'm not sure what your final line said/meant...

"Oh, as Quad Xeon would make life so much better."

The Mac Pro has FOUR Intel Dual Core processors. And it doesn't require liquid nitrogen cooling!

[alfredo]

63. Two duo core processors.

[Atman]

126. Two Dual Core Xeon processors

in the Mac Pro. I think that's what you're saying...

http://www.apple.com/macpro/

[alfredo]

164. Either way, it is a mighty machine.

Too bad I can't afford it on my disability check.

[jayctravis]

258. My first time opening iMovie...

I made an entire movie credit sequence to music using zooming slides. You're right...essentially a Mac turns you into a consumer-level media studio with barely any training required. I'm going to save so much money making personal DVD's as Christmas presents this year.

Things I never thought I would use -- the iSight can be used as a barcode scanner for Delicious Library, which might be the coolest app ever. This 17" iMac is my favorite computer I've owned, and it's only 2 months old.

[Cha]

28. How are the Mac

laptops?

[Atman]

33. Freakin' awesome.

What specifically do you want to know?

[Cha]

41. Thanks to this thread I'm now thinking

of buying one in four years when I move across 1/2 way across the world so I just wanted to know if they were basically good so I can leave this dell behind and start a new computer life with Mac.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

96. They're awesome.

Apple computers last forever. Short of physically breaking them, it's hard to fuck them up. For barebones stuff, even ancient macs will work.

[Atman]

117. I found a Mac Classic in a neighbor's garbage, in the rain - it booted up!

The previous owner had erased most of the HD, but it still had OS 6 on it, b&w screen, and the original very basic Mac apps. Even after sitting on a curb in the rain it booted up as soon as I plugged it in, and functions perfectly. I use it as a "museum piece" now, sitting in my studio like a planter or trophy or something. All my other old Macs I've either given to family or friends, or they sit in the attic collecting dust -- a MacIIci, a PowerPC AV tower, an lime iMac DV and a couple of others shells we picked up for parts and such. They all still run just fine.

[qanda]

142. Actually, my sister bought a mac at the beginning of the year

It has broken three times on her. They are finally going to give her a new system, but the frustration she has faced has been unimaginable. My other sister has a mac laptop and there are parts of it that no longer work, like her "airport card" (I think that's what they call it). I know that mac makes a good product, but all electronics have the ability to break down and so it's false to say that they last forever.

That being said, I would sure love to add a mac to my collection of computers-- they look sweet!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

173. Well, there's always going to be a few problem computers but most of them

do outlast PCs. As for the airport card, she should lift the keyboard and make sure the airport card hasn't wiggled loose and failing that reinstall the airport card. That often takes care of the problem.

[Hawkeye-X]

47. Heh. We were at MicroCenter today and we actually looked at MacMini

I am trying to convince my dad to buy one and convert it into a server and see how it can handle being one.

Hawkeye-X

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. It's A Shame. Dells Are Good PC's. I Love Mine.

They'll bounce back I'm sure. :)

[berni_mccoy]

8. They used to be good. I bought them for many years before I switched

to Macs. The latest Dell desktops have had problems. My friend just had to send his brand new Dell back for service.

[Renew Deal]

12. I sent my laptop in around 4 times.

I have had to replace the power chargers almost twice a year for the first three years. Now they have exploding batteries. Not good.

[IsIt1984Yet]

227. I looove my brand-spankin new Latitude D620

http://laptopmag.com/Review/Dell-Latitude-D620.htm

And my battery is the non-exploding kind, thankfully.

[Cha]

17. I'll be getting a first time

laptop in four years when I move over to Hawaii so this is good to know.

I really don't want to give any more of my money to a bush supporting corporate head.

I'm typing on one of those Dell's right now.

[Renew Deal]

23. The choices for laptops aren't great.

The HP's are OK and the Lenovo's are expensive chinese hardware.

[foreverdem]

114. Very true

I had Dell machines in past jobs that ran ok. Now years later, my present employer has a contract with Dell, and all the PC's, laptops, (and even printers) are always being serviced. My brand new Dell printer died after 3 months.

I used an Mac a few years ago and that thing ran like brand new every day.

[B3Nut]

179. Dell printers = Lexmark.

And you can't buy inkjet ink for them at the store, you have to order it from Dell - the plastic "key" on the top of the cartridges are different. Though if you pop that "key" off the dead Dell cart and stick it on a new Lexmark equivalent cart it can work, some people hack them this way.

But Lexmark and Brother vy for the worst inkjet printers made award, IMO...I used to sell them. I never was impressed with their cheesiness. HP was much better then...though they're starting to cheap out badly these days.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Mend]

21. no shame that Stephen Dell won't be able to contribute quite

so much to bush anymore.....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. I'm Sure He'll Be Able To Contribute Just Fine.

Get a grip. There's a lot more people working for Dell than Stephen. Try not to be so narrow minded.

[Cha]

27. It's Michael Dell and too

bad about his karma.

[Mend]

128. You're right, I was thinking of Stephen, the kid who did all those ads

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. They're also a huge Republican donor.

I'm a Mac person (I have Linux on it too, but rarely use it) and I would never own a PC. If you're going to own a PC, then try to find a somewhat blue company.

[Renew Deal]

5. It's not the death of the PC nor a boon for Apple.

Dell is a shitty company. They started off well, but now their service is ssssslllllloooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww. I have waited an hour on hold at 2AM on a saturday. Their tech's are in India. They are rude and difficult to understand. HP makes better servers and workstations. HP is also a better overall solution provider. I am in corporate IT. I have called business support at Dell for a couple special servers. They were rude and unhelpful too.

Dell is just not that good at what it does. They offered a unique ordering system and good service for a while, but then they went cheap by off-shoring and lack of innovation. HP is way ahead of them, and so is Apple.

[Hissyspit]

50. I agree. And I want a new LIGHTER Apple laptop. But

I can't afford one, so what do I do?

[Elwood P Dowd]

72. Buy a used model or a refurb

I recently purchased an Apple laptop for $600.00. It had been used 8-9 months, and the owner upgraded to the 15" MacBook Pro version. This model will not run Windows (one of the last G4's before Intel), but I don't want to go near that piece of shit OS anyway.

[Hissyspit]

76. Good suggestion, thanks!

[Zech Marquis]

106. i plan on buying a refub MacBook Pro from Apple

There are new MacBook Pros coming out in the next month or so, but the refub models are available at a very good discount :-)

[bklyncowgirl]

105. I agree. Dell's gone downhill.

I'd bought Dells on my job for years and been very satisfied. Last year they messed up an order on me and then refused to do the relatively minor corrections required. Next time I went with HP.

I've been told their tech support sucks too--guy I know says he spent hours with some guy in India or Pakistan trying to get his laptop to communicate with his router.

[qanda]

143. Just for the record

HP has wonderful customer service. They are almost too good. If you call and say you have a problem, they will address your concern and then follow up until they KNOW that you have been helped. I love that!

[conflictgirl]

211. The last desktop PC I bought was a Dell

Five years ago, I bought a Dell Dimension desktop. At that time, I still thought Dell was doing pretty well. When I needed a laptop a few years later, I went with a Dell again out of loyalty - what a piece of trash that was. I hated that laptop with a vengeance. I got an IBM Thinkpad to replace it, which is not bad. The big advantage was that it rated fairly well and was cheap, compared to the iBooks that I was looking at instead.

As I posted elsewhere in the thread, my old Dell desktop is giving me lots of problems and I knew it was time to replace it. Honestly I didn't even CONSIDER going with another Dell product, and wanted to get away from Microsoft altogether because I have had tons of problems with Microsoft products. This time I went with an Apple. I really hope they will be the amazing products people say they are. I'm a professional writer and Macs are kind of the standard among creative types.

Dell is totally responsible for their own demise.

[rurallib]

6. Time for market consolidation

leading to higher prices and less selection. It's the American way.

[Renew Deal]

10. There's not much room for consolidation in the PC market.

HP and Dell are the big players. IBM is too expensive, doesn't do retail, and has sent their laptops to Lenovo. eMachines is consumer crap. Apple doesn't run windows natively. Consumers and especially businesses are looking for choices. Going from 2 1/2 big players to 1 1/2 is not going to fly.

[FreeState]

42. Apple DOES run windows natively

Check out boot camp - from Apple. I

"Run XP natively
Once you’ve completed Boot Camp, simply hold down the option key at startup to choose between Mac OS X and Windows. (That’s the “alt” key for you longtime Windows users.) After starting up, your Mac runs Windows completely natively. Simply restart to come back to Mac."

http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

[Skarbrowe]

87. I just bought one of these, FreeState. Having much fun!!

Actually, my roommate is the computer expert and she is a MAC fanatic. Has been since she put her first computer together not long after Jobs and Wozniak did. I've noticed that if I'm on the MAC side ( Love Garage Band..layin' down tracks!) and I turn off the computer, when I turn it back on it just goes over to the Windows side. If it doesn't do that, it has these small pics of a PC or a Mac, I think, and you just click on what you want. I haven't had to use the "alt" key at all. Maybe that's why you use the "alt" key. I'm not all that computer smart. heh This computer might not have the speed or do all the things a more expensive MAC can do, but it works just great for what I need. My roommate had to have a PC for her "gaming" and I was computer raised on a PC. Now I can enjoy the good things about both systems.

Oh, she listened to the Apple Convention whatever the other day and is all atwitter about the new OS X operating system. They also pointed out that the PC Vista that will eventually be out is doing the same old copying of the Apple upgraded systems.

If you want to play great online games a fast PC is the way to go. If you want fantastic media, movie or music making, MAC's are the best. It depends on what you want them to do for you. I'll admit to always being on the PC side unless I'm playing around with the built in camera, Garage Band or watching online videos.

[NuttyFluffers]

102. Oooh! makes upgrading even easier!

just pop out the old HDD, attach it to make it an external, slave it, switch between OS's as i please! sweet! now i know what i'm going to do for my folks when they want a new computer.

i wonder when the mac mini will get intel chips? that'll be a whole new level of crossover ease. $500 new mini, Boot Camp, lug out old HDDs (with my old Win XP, naturally)... sweet! probably the cheapest and most time saving conversion i can think of ('cause i think of most of that $500 as going to buying a new OS and all that packaged software, so the price literally makes it that a free machine was thrown in the bargain)! ... so when will mac minis sport intel chips and boot camp?
8)

[Atman]

115. The Mini has the Intel chip, too.

The entire Apple product line is 100% Intel now.

[Atman]

48. Wrong. Mac's do run Windows natively.

They have Intel chips. You can boot into Windows -- your own copy; Apple doesn't supply it -- or OSX, your choice. It's the real deal, not Virtual PC or other emulation. In fact, in a recent review of the new Macs published in the Hartford Courant, the reviewer said Windows Vista beta installed nearly twice as fast on his Mac than his PC. And then it wouldn't even run on two of his pc's because of Vista's massive overhead (1 gig of ram, minimum, and so much hard drive space you should just get an external!) But Vista ran flawlessly on the Mac.

Seriously. Google it. I'd give you the link, but I read it nearly three weeks ago in the Hartford Courant. I don't have a link readily accessible.

[Tesha]

178. Apple *DOES* run WIndows natively.

That's one of the beauties of the switch to the Intel architecture.
Your one laptop runs Mac OS X (and Unix beneath that), Linux, and
Windows XP if you wish.

With a little luck, it'll soon run all of those simultaneously.

Tesha

[Systematic Chaos]

9. The PC isn't going anywhere

Dell will go the way of the dodo because of their absolute HORSESHIT tech support.

Just today I got a call from a customer who bought one of my company's webcams from Dell. When there was a problem with the functioning of the webcam the customer called Dell first and ended up paying $99 for hardware support and their techs did nothing to solve the problem. He ended up calling us after being led through a maze by some idiot who can barely speak English. Our support is free and I had his problem solved in 15 minutes.

Fuck Dell and their mass-market garbage. Nothing whatsoever against Apple, by the way, but until people can build their own Mac OSX system and overclock it and tweak it to their heart's content to play FEAR, Far Cry and Counterstrike 2 on, I seriously doubt Apple will ever enjoy much more than a 10% market share.

[Renew Deal]

14. I agree

and I want to add that most of Dell's not PC products are rebranded. I prefer buying from the source. They rebrand printers from Lexmarc (IIRC). Their SAN comes from EMC. The batteries in the explosive laptops are Sony's. I think the webcams are Logitech. Etc. Etc.

[berni_mccoy]

15. The latest Macs can play all those games

And they run Windows side-by-side with Mac OS X and they run Windows better than any PC available.

They are the only maker of desktop/laptop computers that is gaining market share.

Most people don't want to put their own systems together. They want to use them.

[mike_c]

53. I won't speak for "most people..."

...but I LOVE building my own equipment. And I don't cut corners on quality to squeeze a profit out like many "bargain" manufacturers. I'd like an Apple, but for the price I can build a screaming PC, and have fun doing it. What's not to like?

[Robeson]

65. I agree. I always have mine built by indie companies or people....

...and I pick out my own components, and have a "muscle car" computer at a much less cost than from any other source.

[NuttyFluffers]

103. you can pretty much do the same "muscle car tweakin" w/ macs

and you can also pretty much build your own mac from scratch, too. just open a mag of Mac<whatever>, flip to the back where there's the ads of the part distributors, tweakers, fiddlers, etc. and go wild. there's not as many 3rd party parts floating around to throw into making one (there might be growth now with the switch to intel chips), but you can still do all the tinkering and building you like from win and linux pcs. now, it might be the issue of lack of familiarity, which is a fear i see all the time; but the options are there. and i'm not even a mac person; still got a pc.

in fact, when i was looking at my iPod i was seriously tempted to play around with that thing. i know what to do when the warranty runs out, what battery i'm going to get, and how to do the job myself. i'm now debating how much i want to mod out the thing when that time comes. tons of lil' apps, trinkets, gadgets, etc. to fiddle with on macs. it's just often too much terra incognita for some, which is cool 'cuz tinkerers don't always like high popularity saturation in their hobbies. i'm probably gonna get flak just for reminding people that you can pretty much do what they've been doing on pcs as well on macs. oh well...

[sofa king]

104. Hear, hear.

Three years ago I built an overclocked, watercooled monster that was faster than money could buy, and I did it for half the price of a comparable Dell and a third of the price of the best Apple, with better performing components than either of those offerings. It's still fast as hell (in terms of raw megaHertz, my P4 2.4C running at 3,120 MHz is 400 MHz faster than the fastest PowerMac--and don't believe that multi-core hype just yet).

Those of us who had to deal with Windows 95 day in and day out never got to see what stable, dependable computing was like, so it's not like I know what I'm missing. I gladly accept a few crashes a week in exchange for an extra 700 MHz of fragging potential. Similarly, malicious, conflicting and poorly designed software is par for the course and while it's annoying, it's also something that I accept without much complaint, because along with all that crap comes an unlimited supply of free, ingenious toys to discover.

I really like the Apple OS and now that they finally have some real horsepower and the ability to play state-of-the-art games (via Windows Boot Camp), I'd certainly pick one up if funds were not an option. When I can build one myself to my tastes, there won't be any question about it.

Thanks to Boot Camp, a Mac really can do anything a PC can. But it would be really nice to hear, maybe even just once, a Macolyte admit that it's the new Intel chips and Boot Camp which got Apples to the lofty performance position they now hold.

However, if they admit that, it means that all the bullshit they were claiming about how fast their Apples were over the past ten years was... bullshit. But I'm not going to hold my breath. For those Mac fans whose pride I've bruised, take consolation in the fact that the people who actually know about computers want Apples too these days.

[Ravenseye]

120. Agreed

On all your points, but just want to comment that Apple users spout such bullshit propoganda sometimes it makes me irritated. It's a great company, with really amazing industrial design, and a great feel for making things that people can use and love.

That doesn't make Apple infallible, nor does it mean that all innovation comes from them, nor does it mean that PC's suck, nor does it mean that PC's are virus ridden and unable to 'talk' to a Japanese camera...they need to relax. Anytime there is a Macworld expo or something like that the Apple Faithfull come out of the woodwork and all spout the same talking points...It really turns me off.

Different computers for different situations.

[Beelzebud]

182. With what? A virtual machine? LOL

Have you seen benchmarks of games running through a virtual machine?

[jayfish]

183. "They Run Windows Better Than Any PC Available"

Well that's just nonsense. Care to provide some documentation for that assertion?

Here's something for your to read while you search.

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2740&p=15

While the Dell Inspiron E1705 performs pretty poorly given its CPU speed, the MacBook Pro is actually even worse. The E1705 holds about an 8% performance advantage over the MacBook Pro with an 8% faster CPU; however, neither Winstone test scales 1:1 with CPU speed increases so Dell's faster CPU is most likely only buying it another 3% performance advantage here. Obviously neither notebook comes anywhere close to the performance of the ASUS offerings, which continue to be the fastest I've ever encountered in a Core Duo notebook.

I don't really have a good explanation for the MacBook Pro's disappointing Windows XP performance, because all of its hardware is built out of the same major components that ASUS and Dell use for their notebooks. The only thing I can think of is that out of all these companies, ASUS is far more experienced with tweaking and tuning their motherboards for every last ounce of performance while honestly, Apple has never had to really care. Given that ASUS actually manufactures some of Apple's machines, it may be time to enlist its help in performance optimization as well.

Jay

[Cocoa]

13. "this Dell is GREAT for porno"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWpBXv14a8U

[flvegan]

16. And Dell rival HP had a great quarter.

Of course, HP is also in the midst of laying off 15,000 folks. See, it's all in how you write the figures down.

[Renew Deal]

19. HP is doing good work.

Their servers are killer. HP has fully embraced AMD Opteron, Dual Core, and Virtualization technologies. HP has also made the servers very easy to work on. Their business PC's are in the $700 range and they are very good. They have also gained share in the laptop market because better laptops, improved relationships with PC customers, and Lenovo. And BTW, HP does great work with printers.

[flvegan]

22. My home system is HP, and my work laptop is HP.

I'm liking them both.

[bdamomma]

188. JUST A QUESTION

I am looking now for a new PC, how do you find HP, we use those at work and we seem not to have any concerns, I have an old DELL, and I didn't realize it was a repub. company. Thanks for mentioning that.

[flvegan]

216. I've not had any (knock wood) problems with mine.

My home system is a little over a year old, my laptop is maybe 2 months old. Easy to configure, easy to upgrade. I personally think that Gateway and Dell have gone downhill, while HP has really stepped up their game in recent years.

[CabalPowered]

82. I agree that HP servers are top notch, unfortunately the HP Way is gone.

I used to work in the printer division before Fiona laid all of us off. Having a solid chemistry background, I took the hazard pay and worked with all the heavy metals; Liquid solutions of rhodium, palladium, gold and nickel. When I was hired we took every precaution and recycled everything. We had to renew our chem certifications every month which included rigorous testing, random drug tests and spontaneous drills. Safety and incident response training was weekly. The facilities and the handling equipment was top notch. Then Fiona came on and moved our department to Asia so they could dump heavy metals without the environmental regulations, saving millions in reclamation equipment and personnel.

[T Town Jake]

213. Small world! My cousin worked in the printer division at HP, also...

...out in San Diego, I believe it was. She got laid off, too, but I wasn't aware of the details of exactly why since she found another job so fast.

That's a scummy way for HP to do business; doubt I'll be doing any business with them again.

[TexasLawyer]

25. Michael Dell a BIG Bush/RNC supporter

Tuesday, July 26, 2005
The Case For Boycotting Republican-Funding Dell

<snip>

Thanks to Federal Election Commission regulations, we know who gives what to whom. Dell Computer Corporation and Dell's Chief Executive Officer, Michael Dell, are among the nation's largest contributors to everything we despise.

So every dollar we spend on a Dell computer – or anything else they sell – supports the agenda of George W. Bush and everything he, Karl Rove and Tom DeLay hold dear.

As of July 18, 2005, Michael Dell had contributed a total of $486,500 to candidates, party campaign groups or political action committees (PACs). Of that, $473,500 went to Republican candidates and conservative special interests.

http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2005/07/case-for-boycotting-republican-funding.html

[grateful581]

29. Too Bad Dell

I guess Dell has to cut a smaller check to the Republican party this year.
:nopity:

[girl gone mad]

37. I guess the Bush economy..

hasn't been so great for big Bush supporters DELL.

[izzybeans]

30. Currently saving for a MAC. In about two weeks I will begin

transformation.

[Atman]

31. Tuesday in West Hartford, the Apple store had LINES out the door.

On a TUESDAY. People were six and seven deep in three checkout lines.

If you've never been to an Apple store, you may not be aware...in the past, it hasn't been unusual to have two or three salespeople ready to wait on you when you walk in the door. Tuesday -- good luck finding anyone who wasn't already helping other customers.

Picture ANY store selling PC's. Any. Anywhere. Have you EVER seen lines of people waiting to purchase a Compaq or a Dell? Don't give me the bullshit that Dell's and Compaq's are available online, or in more stores than Macs, and that's why there is no line. You can purchase Mac's online, too, and Apple computers and products are still available at Big Boxes and the like. This is bigger. Much bigger.

People are finally fed up with buying expensive piece-of-shit Chinese pc's that explode in their laps and only run Windows for all their troubles. They can now purchase a quality computer made of quality components, and can even choose their own favorite OS.

The PC is, indeed, dead.

[LoZoccolo]

32. I think people are waiting for Windows Vista to come out.

It's supposed to be here in early 2007. That's pretty much the reason that I'm waiting to get a new PC.

[Atman]

36. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Want a preview? Check out OSX. Then wait another couple years for Gates to try and catch up again!

BWHAHAHA! People are waiting for Vista! That's a CLASSIC! I think I'll make a sig line out of it!

[LoZoccolo]

52. I tried the Mac and eventually reverted to the PC.

I have a 15" PowerBook from about April 2004 (1.25 GHz? 1.33? Something like that I think). It wasn't remarkable.

I'm convinced people that say they like their Macs so much are trying to prevent feelings of buyer's remorse on a very overpriced item (though I think they're getting better in price).

[Atman]

56. And I drove an AMC Concord in the early 1980's.

Different processor, different OS, different everything. Your "unremarkable" laptop in 2004 was exactly that. Unremarkable. What does that have to do with current model Intel Macs?

[LoZoccolo]

70. You mean the PCs running OS X?

I'm not gonna drop $2499 on another experiment. My warning sign should have been that no one could really tell me what was cooler.

[Marr]

60. You ever read Snowcrash?

There's a part where the author describes how people who buy Lexus automobiles have a certain style of driving. They like to whip their cars to the right or left at the slightest provocation, mimicking the drivers in the TV ads. He says they do this to reassure themselves that they did not waste money buying a luxury car.

Hehe- anyway, as a former Mac user, I agree. Macs just run too damn slow for me.

[nolabels]

68. Lexus (overpriced Toyota)

Hehe, I get a chuckle out of people that think they are something else

If you make something an even idiot could run, mostly you end up with only idiots running them

[Marr]

83. Haha- so true.

That makes me think of Douglass Adams:

"A common mistake people make when designing something completely fool proof is underestimating the ingenuity of complete fools."

"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be completely impossible to repair."

[TommyO]

113. Adams was a total Mac-head! n/t

[Atman]

119. Haha - great quotes

But they have nothing to do with Macs. I didn't know Lexus were supposed to be fool-proof, though. What exactly were the quotes germane to?

[Marr]

165. To nolabels' comment.

He/she made me think of those two quotes when he/she wrote "if you make something an even idiot could run, mostly you end up with only idiots running them". Sort of a similar sentiment. Vaguely similar. Same ballpark. Same sport at least :P

[Touchdown]

228. A better analogy would be BMW. Clean, spartain, conservative design, etc.

What's so special about them? It's what's under the hood, and how the steering wheel commands the front tires is where the true difference lies. To really know why, you'd have to drive one, just like Apple's computers.

And yes, I drive fast around corners, because I'm driving a car that can. It's been impossible for me to to slide this car...so far.:dunce:

[nolabels]

253. They have to do with somebody using a bastardized part and

then them jacking the price way up on the part and getting away with it because it's the only place you can buy the part. You know, like monopolies. But the joke was kind of like comparing an old chevy Cavalier with a Cadillac Cimmeron. Most of the components are very similar or the same on the moving drive-train and chassis with most of all the extra cost they are getting you for is looks and gadgets that are mostly just frivolous.

[Occulus]

88. I've had the same functionality for years under linux

Where has Apple been- hiding under a rock?

Oh, and the Windows PC is a bettergaming rig than the Apple PC OR ANY CONSOLE ON THE MARKET.

That said- my next "PC" will likely be the fastest Apple I can afford, running Bootcamp.

Apple apparently now emulatesRUNS Windows like Linux never has.

[Touchdown]

57. Apple's had 6 major OSX generations in 5 years

Cheetah 2001
Puma 2002
Jaguar 2003
Panther 2004
Tiger 2005
Tiger Intel 2006

...Leopard Spring 2007.

What's Microsoft been doing for 5 years? Changing the names of their new "revolutionary" OS? :evilgrin:

[Marr]

61. Excuse me, but my blue screen of death has an entirely new

shade of blue now, thank you very much.

:)

[jmowreader]

270. Weren't they planning to sell ads on it at one time?

When Windows ME was current, the BSOD was the most prominent feature of the OS, so I heard a rumor, which was probably unfounded but when it comes to Microsoft you can never be sure, that MS was planning to sell space on the BSOD as a way of financing construction of an OS that didn't crash so much. You know how close to financial ruin that company always is.

[LoZoccolo]

71. I read that as...

..."Apple charges for point releases". But I might too if I was only selling it to like 5% of the market.

[Touchdown]

74. Well, you read it wrong.

It's more like Win 3.0
Win '95
Win '98
Win 2000
Win XP
etc.

They all had real advances over the previous cats.

[Ravenseye]

116. Wow that's way off

If you honestly think comparing the initial release of OS X to the current one is comparable to Windows 3.0 to Windows XP you just lost all credibility as far as this conversation goes.

Their changes, are most applicable the evolution of Windows '95 to Windows 98 to Windows ME. All the same basic package with various upgrades that were a tad more than just a point release. To throw 3.0 and XP into the mix....come on....be honest.

In truth the different 'cats' are a mixed bag. Some were definatley of the level of leap from 95 to 98, while others were what Microsoft distrubutes for free as service packs. A few important changes in the OS, new functions and features, maybe even a program or two, but not THAT many. It really all depends on where you want to call something a new version entirely and where you want to call it a point release. While there were advances in all of them, to compare really ANY of them to the jump from the 95/98/ME system to the XP system is just ignorant.

Just as saying that the jump from any of the 'cats' was as extreme as someone first moving into OS X in the first place. That was a big jump.

[Touchdown]

224. Ever used any of them? Then how can youu speak with any credibility?

You have to have used at least 2 of the generations to speak with any kind of authority, or you are the one who has no credibility. I've used 4. Every generation has a sigfnificant improvement. Not only in features, useability, etc. but especially speed.

Does XP still have registry, DLL, activation? I thought so.;)

And I guess a translation to an entirely different processor architecture is also a "point release" as well. :eyes:

[Ravenseye]

260. Yes I have used them

I've used 3 with more than a passing fancy, and touched the other ones.

I just disagree with you. No matter what the Apple PR machine says, the developers still call them point releases. 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3....etc....There's a reason.

Point releases of that nature should have significant improvement, in features, usablity, speed, even a translation to an entirely different processor architecture. Point releases aren't patches, they should be significant.

Apple has more of them than Windows does, and the quality of their releases is FAR superior to Windows (XP Service Pack 2 anyone?) but they are point releases. My main point was that you comparing them as a jump from Windows 3.0 to Windows XP is just a bad analogy. Comparing it to the chain from Windows 95 to Windows ME would be far more precise. 3 generations in the span of 5 years from Windows, each featureing significant changes, improvements, new features, functionality, and architecture...they called them '3 versions' but they were all really just point releases off Windows 95.

And they sucked. Well 98 was better than 95, but ME actually made things worse. So to compare them would probably be most accurate to compare the 'cats' to the '95 strain, except that Apple did it well, while Microsoft didn't.

[Touchdown]

273. So where's the free shit come in?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but '98, and ME (Win 2000?) weren't free, were they?

[Ravenseye]

282. No they weren't free

And ME in particular cost you more than you paid for it. ME would totally corrupt your system after awhile. Most people didn't even recommend upgrading from Windows 98 it was so bad.

2000 was a completely different OS operating on a different Kernel which was actually pretty stable and based off of the old NT kernel. XP is a descendent of that line and not the 95'-ME strain.

As far as comparable free Windows versions, probably XP service pack 2 would be comparable. A brand new firewall program, security center, tons of fixes, support for all sorts of new technologies like bluetooth, an upgraded media player, a few different new and revised free programs, better graphics display, etc, etc. It reads like a list from one of the 'cats' but from a shittier marketing department. On the whole though I'd say that both Apple and Microsoft have, for the most part, both charged for their point releases and the 'free shit' is definately in the minority.

My intial point though still stands. Comparing the sequence of point releases in the 'cats' to going from Windows 3.0 (which wasn't even an operating system but a shell program that ran on top of the DOS operating system) to Windows XP is a bullshit analogy and shows you to be so far in the Apple camp that your opinions on this topic become suspect.

[jayfish]

174. That's A Good Thing?

If Microsoft came out with six OS generations in five years people would be whining about that too. BTW, major Windows XP generations are called "Service Packs" and they are free. You have had to pay for every one of those "OSX Generations".

Jay

[CrushTheDLC]

194. It's true that Windows Service Packs are free, but.....

Even the SP2 build of Windows XP is still Windows 5.1, and the Vista beta releases are 5. something as well, so I'm assuming even the finished Vista will still be a 5.x release. So Microsoft DOES charge for "point releases", as it's been version 5 ever since Windows 2000.

[Touchdown]

226. Yeah, but Apple doesn't charge for word processors

mail programs, spreadsheets, music & photo storage, music manipulation, video editing, DVD creation or even Quicken 2006. All but Keynote, a Powerpoint equal are free in the box, and ready to use. Windows gives you a license screen for what they load up their HDs with. Nobody ever said a Panther user has to upgrade to Tiger either. Most brand new software will run fine on Jaguar. Yes, even now.

Sounds like six and a half-dozen the other to me.

[jayfish]

231. If MS Did The Same They Would Be Sued For Anti-Trust Violations.

BTW, I have nothing against Macs. I just abhor the OS zealotry.

Jay

[Touchdown]

243. No you don't

You plant your ass in every Mac thread and start dissing them. It's your alien that gives you away.:rofl:

I'm not a zealot. I am just very happy with my computer and what it does for me. What I abhor is the silly wives tales that have been around that don't apply anymore.

I got friends and parents who complain about viruses, crashes, reloading, defragging, etc. They know less about computers than I do. Do they listen when I tell them that they don't have to put up with any of that shit? No. Will they even entertain a cursory trip to the Apple Store? No. They go out and buy a new Windows machine, and complain to me about viri, defragging, and crashes again. When am I allowed to not have any sympathy? After the 230th disc boot or the 400th virus?

[jayfish]

252. Whaaa?

That's just crazy talk. I dare you to find a downright diss of Apple or Macs made by me.

Jay

[robertarctor]

64. Windows Vista = poor knockoff of OSX Tiger

And by the time Microsoft gets Windows Vista into the marketplace, Apple will be ready with OSX Leopard, which will run circles around Vista.

I learned on a Mac, had to switch to PCs, still use a PC at work and an Intel iMac at home. The Mac rocks.

[Touchdown]

73. Wait till you see Time Machine on Leopard.

Automatically backing up EVERYTHING. Also, lost something? Call Time Machine up, and it will search every previous day until it finds what you lost. Click restore, and you got it. Vista won't have it....unless they delay it another 2 years and call it Vishorn. ;)

Watch the keynote at the WWDC. It's about an hour long, but you get a cool preview of all the new Leopard stuff.

http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/aug_2006/event/index.html

[CrushTheDLC]

277. I hope nobody tries to use that feature on the Mac Mini!

At least the MacPro has room for 4 hard drives. Which you'll need if you use "Time Machine" for any length of time. Those mini's have some advantages due to their size, but expandability sure as Hell ain't one of 'em.

[Touchdown]

288. LaCie makes them for the Mini.

[skids]

99. I think you are correct.

just s/wait/dread/ :evilgrin:

Seriously, though, I think people don't want to get caught on an underpowered platform because they know Vista is going to be rather needy.

Me, I will gladly buy a couple of their used laptops at a steep discount when they unload and then proceed to run circles around their new machines. But to each his own, I guess.

[Solon]

198. Why?

No, seriously, why wait to get a new PC with Vista on it, its just XP with a glass Aero interface and built-in DRM, is that really worth it?

Believe me, XP is the LAST windows I'm owning, Vista looks nice, but then again, I've had a 3D interface for well over 7 months, on a PC no less.

[JohMunich99]

34. Hahahahaha

The death of the PC! Oh man, that's a good one. Thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

[Marr]

54. Dude! Nobody's gettin' a Dell!

[welshTerrier2]

55. i had all kinds of problems with my Dell

they fixed it though ... it turns out it had a farmer stuck inside it ...

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

59. Blame it on outsourced tech "support"

It's hard to diagnose a problem from half a world away- moreso when they don't understand your language.

[KharmaTrain]

66. There Go Those RNC Contributions...

Damn! :sarcasm:

I am a very happy Sony Vaio owner. I've had lappers for over 10 years. I've had HPs (Junk supreme) then moved up to Toshiba and have had this Vaio for well over a year and have been very happy and impressed.

I'm a "power user" and beat the shit out of these things. A Dell doesn't stand a chance here. Most Dell owners I know are "starters"...people who are just getting their first machine or use it to do email and play Slingo. It's like your first car...you are just so glad to have the wheels, you don't care how poorly it performs. Now, with a majority of American homes with puters, the market has gone flat and so have the "gateways" like Dell.

The good news is there are computer bargains galore out there right now. At least something's reasonable.

[The Straight Story]

67. Death of the PC? You getting a Sun server too? :)

Got two of them, and they rock - for the things I need em for.

Got 3 windows computers and one windows server as well.

Mac? Not a one (though nothing against em really). At our data centers? Thousands of servers dealing with over a trillion a day in business transactions (stock trades, checks in and out, credit card charges, payments, funds transferred, etc and so on) - and not a mac in site anywhere. Dell, Compaq, Sun, HP. And as long as we use them at work, we will be using them at home imho.

[berni_mccoy]

89. I'd argue those aren't Personal Computers... but servers...

And Apple is just getting started with that.

http://www.apple.com/xserve/

[Swamp Rat]

77. Too bad crawdad!

:D

[berni_mccoy]

79. LOL!

Now go read this: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/berni_mccoy/64

[Swamp Rat]

90. I read it

:thumbsup:

Allow me to add, "a vote for Lieberman (I) is a vote for endless terrorism and war crimes."

[berni_mccoy]

91. OMG! L.I.A.R. is a GREAT SLOGAN FOR HIM!!!!

I LOVE IT!

[Mr_Spock]

94. Good one!

I am so bitter at LIEberman at this point. :(

[Mr_Spock]

80. The snobbery on this post is funny

What are the majority of us PC people supposed to feel?

Like we're idiots for not seeing the clear superiority of the Mac?

I have been infinitely amused at the vociferousness of my Mac sister in law - it's all too funny.

As if a product needs a cheerleading squad :rofl:

The day my company entrusts Macs for technical computing tasks (engineering), then I will get to try one.

The idea of buying a Mac so I can run all my technical Windows programs using Windows is rather silly to me - even my oldest of 3 PC's in my home performs sufficienly well and not one has ever had an issue (including the Dell laptop I am typing on). I am somewhat distressed that Dell supports the Chimp though :( I probably won't buy another Dell based on that alone.

[berni_mccoy]

81. I had friends trying to convince me for years that the Mac was better

I finally realized it was true about 2 years ago. I'm never going back now.

[Mr_Spock]

84. That's cool

I have watched with interest this "Intel inside" campaign.

I may try one someday, but only based on the "lack" of difference and the perceived quality of the Macs. I've worked with several OSX machines and been frustrated at how difficult it was to set up a network. I also can't run the type of software I am most enamored with (technical). But a Intel/Windows based machine has big time potential IMHO.

[Elwood P Dowd]

85. Mac snobs convinced me

to switch. Now I thank them every fucking day.

[Mr_Spock]

86. Can you tell me what the biggest benefit would be for me?

I am an engineer and have up 'till now only worked with the Macs owned by several of my family members. I do not like OSX very much - I can see how the Intel machines would be good for me - but would I be getting anything more than a better design/built Windows machine?

[Swamp Rat]

93. Well, I have never had a virus or hardware failure in 25 years.

And, the next operating system upgrade, called Leopard, will allow me to install Wondows XP so I can run all my Windows-based GIS and engineering applications on more reliable hardware. Check it out:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

Meanwhile, I use free programs for UNIX like GRASS, originally developed by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineering Research Laboratories. :)

http://grass.itc.it/

:hi:

[jayfish]

176. Never A Hardware Failure In 25 Years?

Amazing! You do know that for the most part, MAC hardware is no different than PC hardware. If you haven't had a piece of hardware fail in 25 years you are either lucky or lying. Neither of those two things have anything to do with Apple.

Jay

[Swamp Rat]

193. "you are either lucky or lying"

How sweet of you. :eyes:

Are you normally this insulting to others?

"You do know that for the most part, MAC hardware is no different than PC hardware" - Apparently different enough to produce a better, longer lasting product.

"Neither of those two things have anything to do with Apple." - It has EVERYTHING to do with Apple. They choose their hardware vendors carefully and have better quality control than any other computer company, save perhaps SGI (as of May this year SGI has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection), which had the earliest 64-bit RISC microprocessor. There were some cheap Apples, like the Performa line, but I stayed away from those models. Though, I did have a Performa for a few years - not a single problem occurred. I also avoid any Rev. A models because there are usually problems with any new product line. That's why I am waiting for the Rev. C Intel laptops before I purchase one.

Maybe your experience with the company is different than mine, but Apple even gave me a new wireless keyboard two days after I dropped and broke one. One time I bought a refurb monitor that arrived broken (fault of UPS), so Apple sent me a NEW one exactly 24 hours later. That was ten years ago and that Sony Trinitron monitor was working perfectly when I gave it away this Summer.

I have owned a dozen or more Apples, some which have been with me for years (currently my oldest is an 8 yr old iMac - works like new and can even run OS Panther). I sold my ancient Apple IIe a few years ago, but it still worked. I gave away a PowerBook 150 that still worked even though it had been collecting dust under a bed for 6 or 7 years. Every one of my old Apples were functional at the time I sold or gave them to someone else. I cannot say the same of the Windows PCs I have owned.

I don't know about you, but I work all day long on computers - Apples, various PCs, and Sun Microsystems (I have not used SGIs in a while because I never could afford to own one - the ones I used run Windows NT and SCO UNIX). The UNIX-based machines never give me problems. I believe this "good luck" is due to both the OS and the hardware.

[Occulus]

92. Honestly, it's a very good solution

As a linux/Windows user since the days of RedHat 4.5, I think I can say something with weight here.

If the new Macs running Bootcamp can run Windows natively on the SAME partition, and as I understand it, at the same time, I'll be getting a Mac next.

DEPENDING ON ITS GAMING PERFORMANCE.

Meaning- can I run Oblivion as smoothly on a Mac running Bootcamp as I can in Windows XP 64-bit?

Keep in mind- my benchmark is the smooth playing of what I own now. There are remarkably few Apple-native games, and amazingly many Apple-native graphics apps. I happen to use both functionalities, frequently.

I'm not concerned with which is better, right now, compared to the other. I'm going to give my money to the one system that can run well everything I need it to run. Period. The manufacturer is not really an issue.

The ability to upgrade the CPU, RAM, and video hardware, however, is required.

If bootcamp can do it all, my next computer will likely be a Mac of some sort.

[Atman]

121. People seem to forget...you can always just upgrade the video card

I just don't understand this thing people have with Macs, seeming to think that you have to buy it one way off the showroom floor and can never change it. Hell, even the "un-upgradeable" iMac can be upgraded. My old iMac blew a hard drive, but it took five minutes to find the service manuals online and open up the case. I replaced the old 9gb HD with an 80gb off-the-shelf hd from Comp USA. The video card on iMacs is a tougher upgrade, but on the tower Macs you can put in any card you want. Ram replacement is even easier.

Even the seemingly inpenetrable Mac Mini can be opened with just a putty knife in about 10 seconds. But good luck finding your way around the cramped insides!

[NuttyFluffers]

248. never got that either, and i'm a pc user

macs have been upgradable since... well, since i was knee-high to a grasshopper i guess. ram is pretty much wholly standardized now, and most HDDs are basically all the same in shape. graphics cards should have plenty of crossover (i'd think all, but i haven't been bothering with the AGP market for a while). outside of that it's just motherboard and cpu. granted, in the past most mbs and cpus on the market were mostly apple proprietaries and liscensed -- couldn't exactly throw in a cheapo no-name mb and run with it.

but yeah, mac upgradability has been around forever. on top of that some of the best case designs i've seen for ease of access in and out of the innards have been on macs. i forget which model it was exactly -- i think a powermac tower from around 4-5 years ago -- but my friends and i wept at the beauty of just pulling a latch and having the whole innards gently open before us. does anyone else here remember the pain, cuts, scratches, and irksome screws that it normally takes to get into a case? that tower was a thing of design beauty -- they remembered us poor IT people. unfortunately there was supposedly a heating issue or something which caused the design to be stopped, i forget the details.

[datasuspect]

127. how does the rw talking point go?

what about all those people who own pc's and might vote for the democratic party? are you gonna make them feel stupid because they buy pc's? then they'll vote republican. SERIES!!!!!1111

vomit

[RoyGBiv]

98. That's a weird conclusion ...

Dell, one company that merely assembles parts, reports a decline in sales, one that is prompting a regulatory audit of its accounting practices I might add, suggesting of course the previous figures were wrong.

This means the death of the PC?

[berni_mccoy]

125. Heh...I have that toon on a t-shirt.

The conclusion isn't a hard one... it's more of the beginning of the death.

And Dell is (was) the largest maker of desktop PCs. And it's their primary business (unlike HP as others like to point out as an example).

Every PC manufacturer reported large drops in sales this year, except one: Apple.

[Mr_Spock]

152. Good point

That was my first thought too, then I realized this was a Mac is WAY better than a PC post :D

[RoyGBiv]

234. Yeah ...

Reminds me of Usenet, back in the good ol' days.

Err, wait ... I mean yesterday. :-)

[Zynx]

101. Be careful there, HP reported a 62% jump in earnings.

This may be more the death of Dell.

[berni_mccoy]

124. HP Does a LOT more than PC's

Remember HP is the result of HP acquiring Compaq (what HP PCs really are) acquiring Digital.

HP makes most of its business off of printers. Next to that, enterprise software and services. PCs are the smallest part of HPs bottom line.

[Zynx]

137. True, but their PC business has been doing very well.

I've followed HP for years very closely. They are taking marketshare from Dell.

[Mr_Spock]

156. So does Apple...

Apple Reports Third Quarter Results
Posts Second Highest Quarterly Revenue and Earnings in Company’s History

CUPERTINO, California—July 19, 2006—Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2006 third quarter ended July 1, 2006. The Company posted revenue of $4.37 billion and a net quarterly profit of $472 million, or $.54 per diluted share. These results compare to revenue of $3.52 billion and a net profit of $320 million, or $.37 per diluted share, in the year-ago quarter. Gross margin was 30.3 percent, up from 29.7 percent in the year-ago quarter. International sales accounted for 39 percent of the quarter’s revenue.

Apple shipped 1,327,000 Macintosh® computers and 8,111,000 iPods during the quarter, representing 12 percent growth in Macs and 32 percent growth in iPods over the year-ago quarter.

____________________________


The iPod helped save Apples computer business...

[Deja Q]

108. Maybe people have noticed they sell shit and refuse to buy?

And, yeah, the MacBook is warming on me - even if Apple did leech off of FreeBSD.

[alcibiades_mystery]

109. I would never buy a Dell, and I would never buy a Mac

:shrug:

[Atman]

123. What kind of processor does your abacus have?

What do you use, one of these?

[alcibiades_mystery]

129. I build my own PC's, smart guy

I like the flexibility. That's what PC's are good for.

Yes, I do run XP, but I usually run Linux distros.

The assumption that Dell=PC is not only wrong, it's plain stupid. Ditto the absurd notion that PC=Microsoft.

[Atman]

131. I can't really argue with you there.

Dell has a bad quarter and that means the entire Windows-based market segment is dead? That is one crazy stretch of logic, even for DU!

(BTW -- that KayPro was my very first computer. 5 1/2" floppies that were really floppy! The CPM language -- ooooh! So robust. But the KayPro itself was a rock-solid computer. We used to use them on the beach to run surf contests, and people would be shocked that they'd actually run in the heat and humidity of the beach. But they always ran. Great machines, and the design is a curious precursor to the early Macs).

[nedbal]

239. Yes I had one of those CPM "portables" 99% of users do not need the best

out there. a 1G cpu with 60G HD and a dvd burner & a dvd player will do for the average user

[rman]

110. Sure, Dell is the only PC manufacturer

Since Dell isn't only PC manufacturer, its dropping sales have no bearing whatsoever on the popularity of PCs.

[Jacobin]

111. Dell products suck

And their offshored customer service is dreadful.

i would never buy another one of their products. ever

[Norrin Radd]

118. I assembled my own PC from inexpensive hardware from Newegg,

and it runs like a charm. And it was fun putting it together. More people are going this route.

[alcibiades_mystery]

130. That's correct

Upthread, I said I'd never buy a Dell or a Mac. The OP asked what kind of processor my abacus had. It is as if he doesn't know that there are PC possibilities beyond Dell. It's ignorance, and a little embarrassing.

[Atman]

132. No, it was a joke, not ignorance.

Don't get your panties in a wad, alcibiades. It's a little embarrassing that one would think a person carrying on a conversation about computers wouldn't know there are other choices than a PC. Joke, alci, joke. Don't take yourself so seriously.

[alcibiades_mystery]

134. My bad

:-)

[Norrin Radd]

229. A funnier, geekier joke would've been something like:

what processor do you have on your Commodore 64, Atari ST, BBC Micro, or ZX Spectrum 48K. (I won't say Amiga, because they are still putting out operating systems).

[HughBeaumont]

139. I did that same thing, and I'm happy with the result.

Fast as hell, hasn't crashed on me yet, everything is easy to install and update. I build with the programs I want, not what RepubliDell forces me to have. I'll go this route again.

[boise1]

150. Newegg'd here too

It was a lot of fun assembling the pieces and bringing up the machine.

Looking at a possible Mini-ITX project next, though will probably stick with a Linux distro for the OS.

[Norrin Radd]

254. Yeah, those tiny, portable cases are nifty. n/t

[CabalPowered]

240. Newegg is great!

:thumbsup:

[Norrin Radd]

255. They also take returns without a hassle. n/t

[W_HAMILTON]

122. I'm glad to see companies suffer that take this route

They used to be all about quality.

Then they fell into the same trap of many of bullshit big businesses nowadays, and instead of finding innovative ways to become more successful, they cut costs ... they cut corners ... they outsourced their customer service department ... they started using cheaper parts.

And now look at them. This is essentially what is going to happen to any company that tries to make its numbers look better this way. The sky is the limit when it comes to bringing in extra revenue, but there are only so many costs you can cut. I'm glad that Dell is learning this the hard way.

The same things that caused them to be a successful company are the same things they cut out to make it look like they were still continuing to be a successful company. Now, all that has caught up with them.

GOOD.

[Neshanic]

141. Macs run Auto Cad now? No they don't. A Mac is a status symbol.

Going into the Mac store in the fashionable Biltmore location, a parade of people at the "genius" bar are patiently waiting and getting angry at the slacker/scrungy/oh so hip help, dressed in the requisite black. Sync issues, hard drive nightmares, plug in component freak outs, its all there, the cross section of the idle, not so serious dilletante Mac user in their native habitat. Along with the laptop issues, Ipod victims are in the that line snakes around no less than 20 boxes of the vaunted "refurbished" Mac laptops on sale discreetly positioned so they are not so noticeable from the front.

Yes they can fix my Ipod, but wait no, the thing will have to be replaced by a new one; well not really a new one, a refurbished one. Just what I anted after 2 months of buying a new one, a refurbished one. Thank you, Mr Mac Genius! Perfectly acceptable practice in the bamboo floor world of buy something new, then we will give you an old refurbished one, of the Mac slavish devotees.

This bizzare obsession with the cult of Macists is beyond belief. So Dell, no favorite of mine lost a chunk. The PC is DEAD!

Not so fast you Mac toting fashionistas, HP and Sony have great machines. My HP laptop is perfection, running AutoCad, Office, Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, and some other rather large items. It runs glassy and smooth.

Pay more, it's not like you are doing architecturals or anything, so who cares if your Mac has to go back to magical Steve Jobs refurbish land? You will see it again, or maybe mistakenly buy it again from the mountain of refurbishes that are lurking in the back of the Mac store.

[Atman]

153. I've owned Macs (and PCs) since 1987.

Never experienced anything remotely like you describe in your post. Never sent a single one of my Macs in for repairs. Still on my first iPod, three years old, that goes everywhere with me, including snowboarding. It's been frozen, fallen on, buried in snow...and it still works fine.

Certainly, Apple hardware goes bad, too. They do sell a lot of machines, despite what Mac-phobes try to tell you. I think they're up to 12% of the laptop market now. And so, sure, some percentage of them are bound to be bad. I don't recall any posts here saying Apple had a 100% perfection rating or anything. As do you, I have my own experiences to go by. But judging from the nasty attitude just oozing from your post, I'd say you're a victim of Electronic Karma. Someone has to get the duds. The Computer Gods apparently determined that the Mac-hater with the attitude was a better candidate for one of them than foisting them on people who actually like the machines in the first place.

[Neshanic]

158. Not Mac hater, it's "Us enlightened Mac users", as if

the PC users in the US that are architects, engineers, surveyors, landscape architects, and others, that as a group approaches 90% PC use, are somehow imbeciles, dolts, and Microsoft enablers; this as they walk away from you disgusted, when you tell them you work on a PC.

You have to admit, the image of a Mac is more appealing than a PC in just the looks department, and they have marketed and product placed that image to perfection. Hence the oozing sarcasm, from having the squinty EEWWWW from a person who could not produce a set of construction drawings on their Mac, but LOVES how it makes those cool things get bigger when you run the mouse over them.

[Atman]

162. You're projecting.

"...a group approaches 90% PC use, are somehow imbeciles, dolts, and Microsoft enablers; this as they walk away from you disgusted, when you tell them you work on a PC."

Oh, puh-leeze. I'm as much as Mac head as anyone, but I've never seen that reaction. I've seen graphic artists harrumph at having to use a PCs, but that is because they're so rare in the industry, and the Adobe line of products so many of us rely upon are optimized for Mac chips. The Mac versions just have a cleaner, less cartoony look to the interface, and let's face it, the aesthetics are a lot of the appeal in anything to a designer.

Funny how certain industries tend to adopt the technology that works best for them, eh? But that doesn't mean that everybody thinks you're a big ol' doodie head just because you use a PC. I'm sure there are other reasons for that!







(Just kidding -- it was a cheap-shot one-liner I couldn't resist!)

[Neshanic]

217. Thanks Sigmund. Never seen that reaction? Get out more...

Hows that for unsolicted medical advice?

[alcibiades_mystery]

154. I like my HP laptop too

Granted, I don't run all the nifty programs yoiu do, but I really do like it. It had a major issue within six months: the mobo shorted. HP replaced it within 4 days, call to return, and they paid the FedEx. Now the thing works like a charm again, and I was superimpressed with the service. I build my own desktops, but probably will go back to HP for a laptop, next time I need one.

[berni_mccoy]

167. "Not so fast you Mac toting fashionistas..." LOL!!!

That was an awesome line! :-D

[Bill McBlueState]

144. Astronomers are all using Macs

Last conference I went to, pretty much three-quarters of the attendees had 15" Powerbooks.

It's the seamless integration with Unix that makes Macs so appealing to scientists.

[Neshanic]

146. Have your astronomer design your next house. He will use a PC.

[Atman]

166. What application do you use?

Just curious...

[U4ikLefty]

236. Well as a civil, I use AutoCad, Microstation, and LDD to name a few.

Can Apple run these applications smoothly as my Dell???

I really would like to switch, but Apple doesn't seem interested in my market. Until then, I will use my computer that was bought from the devil...I wish it were different.

[NuttyFluffers]

250. i'd rather not have my astronomer design my next house, thanks.

he might get strange notions about the roof being superfluous.
:evilgrin:

[Dinger]

145. I Have An iBook, And Have Never Had A Problem With It

I've always had a Mac. I'm a teacher, and in my school, most of the computers are Macs. My first exposure to computers was to Macs, so that's what I stuck with. For me, it's as simple as that.

[Neshanic]

147. Of course you don't. Nothing is really asked of it to do....

Word processing, Photoshop, that's about it, and maybe Office 2003.

[Dinger]

149. Ofcourse I Don't What?

Sorry, I'm not understanding you.

[Neshanic]

151. Have problems with your Mac. It is not required to do much.

[jsamuel]

155. It is like the opposite of using credit cards.

Their outsourcing took away business by making customers shop elsewhere. This is the exact opposite effect of allowing people to use credit cards like at fast food restaurants.

[sofa king]

157. I think all box computers are living on borrowed time.

At this point, you can buy a cell phone that rivals the performance and power of a PC from the early 1990s. Bluetooth and its better alternatives are finally taking root, and there's all sorts of neat stuff on the horizon like roll-up screens and gushy keyboards. Offsite data storage is now routine. Lots of software is available by direct download, floppies have finally been replaced by keychains, and there are handheld scanners and http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005LDPR/103-3116045-4196605?v=glance&n=172282">even mini printers.

Even the concept of the home theater computer, which was looking for a while like where computers were going, is getting squeezed out because the components themselves are getting so clever that they don't really need a master device telling them what to do.

Less and less do we need devices which do everything; more and more we want gizmos that talk to everything else instead.

Most of you reading this right now are sitting down in front of the Beige Altar, but if you could read and post on DU while waiting in line or sitting in traffic (as a passenger, you crazies!) or from a canoe or chillin' at the strip club, you would. And soon, you will.

But until then, I still like building them myself. Dell will make my computer when they pry my phillips head screwdriver from my cold, dead hand.

[Norrin Radd]

230. E ink displays look to be revolutionary, as well:

http://www.eink.com/products/index.html

because the stuff can be put on any surface.

[SmokingJacket]

160. Two reasons: Dells have become BAD, and they're Red.

I've bought nothing but Dells since 1993, when I got my first computer. But this is my last. I've had to get a new keyboard, a new monitor, and now other shit is on the fritz. :grr:

they used to be so good, too.

[NicRic]

172. Well this thread stings !

My wife just purchased me a Dell for my B-Day a DellXPS400 2.8GHZ 1Gig DDR Mem 250G.B.HardDrive,ATI PCI-Express 128M.B.graphics card dual core processor VIIV Technology ,the tower is beautiful and all you have to do is pull a little lever to gain access. I was told by the three differant people I know who work in the PC industry to buy a Dell ? One is a C++ Programmer ,the other two are networkers ! They told me Dell had some excellent PC's for very good price point,and the Flat Panel wide screen 20" is also beautiful ,dual drives a DVD-/+RW and other drive is DVD-ROM ! WindowsXP Media Center Edition 2005 ! So far its working great ,I've made three calls to support ,for general setup ?'s and took me less then a minute to get a Technician on the phone ! So Iam confused because so far my exprience does not match at all what Iam hearing from other Dell owners in this topic ? I guess like movie opinions ,I will have to see for myself !
Take Care Nick

[qanda]

215. I'm sure your computer will be fine

Enjoy your gift/toy without any reservations. BTW, happy birthday!

[KitSileya]

204. Yeah, my desktop Dell is the last I'll buy as well.

I'll assemble my next one myself, like the my previous desktop. I don't want to support a red company.

As for macs, I used them sporadically in the late 90s - in computer labs. I'm pretty myopic, and back then I had trouble because their screens and layouts were smaller and different - the fonts etc were less legible to me. It's probably something that's been changed now, but it stopped me from getting into macs. Right now, I'm writing on my work issued Fujitsu Siemens C series Lifebook - and as long as my workplace is wired for pcs, that's what I'll have at home as well. But no more Dell, that's for sure.

I am happy Dell is doing worse, and that Apple is doing better, because I seriously think that several of the pc companies need competition - Microsoft especially.

[BlooInBloo]

161. The mac is for babies.

[Neecy]

169. well, I guess that's me, then

I've had two Gateway PC's that lasted all of about 2 years before the DVD and/or CD drives blew out. Ridiculously cheap construction and terrible tech service. Not to mention the constant Windows updates and patches you have to install to prevent your machine from being hacked or the constant checking for Spyware.

I finally got sick of fighting my cheap (not in price!) PC's and bought a Mac last month. I hope I'll never become a rabid, PC-taunting Mac fanatic but so far I've been really impressed with it. And hey, everything works :)

[pstokely]

168. The Firestone Tires of Laptops

[sgxnk]

171. i've been long AAPL

since steve jobs took over

DELL otoh ... lol

[Beelzebud]

181. Might be the downfall of Dell, but the death of PC? LOL

Get real...

What's with the Mac fanboys? I've never been so willing to be an advertising shill for a company, like the Mac fanboys are...

[porphyrian]

185. The Mac vs. PC war rages on...

From a PC person perspective, Mac people vehemently defend Macs, claim all PCs are inherently inferior, and cannot be swayed. They tend to be more art-related (Adobe cut its teeth for Macs) rather than programmer-types, and they would prefer something asthetically pleasing to a jury-rigged monstrosity resembling something from The Matrix (unless that happens to be their asthetic, but I digress). If you want to expand the functionality of a Mac, you generally buy external peripherals.

PC people don't so much defend PCs (everyone knows they're often shit) as share a certain comaraderie and pride in having survived the multiple inevitable mishaps and the related hell of tech support involved with PC ownership. It's a club similar to old Harley riders, who go nowhere without their toolkit (you know what I'm sayin'). PC owners usually end up with something akin to the Millenium Falcon, with parts from two PCs ago and software you have to fool into thinking you're running in DOS to function. PC owners are tinkers, we need to get under the hood (both because we enjoy it and because something inevitably goes wrong in there we need to fix).

They are two distinct types of machines for two distinct types of people. Why do people always feel the need to claim apples are better than oranges?

[The Revolution]

186. Death of the PC?

More like complete victory :)

After years of fighting, Apple finally gave up and admitted defeat. They've switched to Intel machines running Windows. Macs died a long time ago...it just took Apple a while to admit it. Mac is just another brand of PC now, which happens to boot another OS. No different than a PC booting Windows & Linux, really.

Dell's numbers are down because they're losing business to their major competitors (such as HP). The fact that Dell has been slow to offer AMD-based systems certainly has something to do with this (which is something they are now correcting).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

187. Question for mac fans.

Back when Windows 95 was released, Mac users were falling over themselves because Windows 95 was advertising that it was good for multi-tasking, something that the Mac OS had been capable of for awhile. Well today the biggest selling point for Apple is how Macs can run Windows software, but I find that a bit odd, since my PC has been able to run Windows software for at least a few years now. So my question is, notice the cognitive dissonance?

[berni_mccoy]

190. What PCs can run Mac OSX?

It's a far superior OS. And what makes the latest Macs better is that now you can run crappy old Windows software on the Mac until there is a better replacement for Mac OSX.

Don't worry, the Mac software is growing an an extremely rapid rate. Games now come out supporting both platforms. TWENTY MILLION MAC owners can't be wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

191. Hmm.

There's the 20 million mac users on one hand...

and the 670 million PC users on the other hand...

[CrushTheDLC]

196. Actually, there are PC's running OSX right now

http://wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,68501,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

[jayfish]

200. It's A Hack And It's Illegal. -NT-

Jay

[Solon]

202. Actually that depends...

If you downloaded MacOSX off the internet, then yes, that's copywrite infringement, and is illegal. However, if you hacked a version to run on your PC that you bought yourself, you violated the EULA, but then again, that thing isn't legally enforcable anyways, so no law is broken.

[CrushTheDLC]

278. Well, legality wasn't the question asked

But whether or not PC's would run OSX. As far as how well it actually works, I'll have to get back to you on that. Once I install it on my PC and try it out, that is.

BTW, question for Mac users. What's the slowest processor you would recommend using with OSX?

I have a 800mhz HP pavillion sitting here empty at the moment. Will that thing even begin to run it, or should I do a dual boot on my 2ghz machine?

I'm not looking to make the MAC-inated PC my main system even if it works, but I would like it to at least be functional enough to get a good idea of how OSX works. I am considering buying a Mac Pro if they drop the price in a few months. Or better yet, they could put some Mac clones on the market and drive the price down.

[Solon]

281. You need an x86 with the SSE2 extension on it...

My AMD AthalonXP(1.25GHz) only has SSE1, so I can't run it on this system. Most late model Intels and AMDs can, however. Also, there is no guarantee that it will run properly with AMD chips. This one may require a kernel hack to work. Also, I heard that on systems it CAN work on, that it runs pretty good.

ON EDIT: A good test is to download darwin, which is the "core" of OSX, its free to download, straight from apple here:

http://www.opensource.apple.com

Click on the darwin link under the Open Source Project links, then I would recommend you get the binary x86 release of 10.4, chances are that if it installs and runs fine on your PC, the full version of OSX will run fine as well.

Darwin is the barebones of OSX, without the Cocoa interface or proprietary apps(iTunes, etc.).

[Touchdown]

244. I have no use for Windows.

None of my posts on this thread extol the virtues of running Windows on Apples. I don't care. I'm sure many people can find it useful, but I've never needed any program that wasn't available for my macs, and I have billable hours on two of them. I've never even needed to use MSOffice, so I deleted it off my HDs. I can't say that I won't need it in the future, but for now, I have no need for Windows.

I did notice the attempt at your non-sequitur to label your flimsy thesis on cognitive dissonance though.

[Initech]

189. Fuck Dell, cant say I feel too sorry for them!

Especially when you consider the fact that they make shitty, overpriced laptops, and Michael Dell is a HUGE contributor to the GOP and lobby groups that endorse outsourcing of jobs.

[Xenotime]

192. Linux or Apple for me. I only run windows now in emulation.

VMWare in Linux
Parallels in Apple

[Dob Bole]

195. Bah! I run a Linux PC that I built myself....

so death to you all!

(Actually, I have a Windows PC at work.) :(

[kineneb]

233. I have a linux machine also.

Couldn't afford regular machines, so we went to Fry's several years ago and bought a pc with a version of Linux pre-loaded. I changed the distro to SuSE and have been happy ever since. I changed out several boards, upgraded the video, added more RAM and added a SCSI CD writer. I should mention that Hubby worked in the computer industry for many years, so installing our own hardware has never been a problem.

As for laptops, I still use my old IBM Thinkpad 600E, which runs fine on Linux- totally amazing for a 366 machine. If I replace it, I want a "newer" slightly faster Thinkpad. I love the keyboard- I can't kill it.

[TheFriedPiper]

197. Used to use macs for music production, but PCs caught up and passed them

So I switched and I love it. Recorded 7 albums on PC so far. I will not go back.

ProToolz can bite me.

[Solon]

199. Question for Mac Fans...

Can you JUST buy a Motherboard/CPU and RAM for it?

I mean, I looked at Apple's website and didn't see them selling JUST that. I already have a decent monitor, optical mouse, graphics card, DVD/CD Burner, Sound Card, etc. The ONLY upgrade I'm interested in is a Mobo, and I would like to run OSX, seen it in action, its cool, just wondering if they sell the Intel Mobo/CPU, because of the ridiculous lockdown they put on OSX, hell, I'd actually buy that if I could RUN it, unlike Vista(have no interest).

[NuttyFluffers]

251. not in the mac inner circle, but yes, you can.

i'd just say scan the net, but it might be easier to pick up any Mac magazine and check the back for a few companies that sell components. macs have always been upgradable -- nothing particularly special to pcs. pcs just have a larger selection of 3rd party component manufacturers, that's all. though, having a lot of 3rd party support means that you have to be that much more diligent in avoiding crapware too.

since it's all intel now (i didn't know that even the minis now support it), all that's required is your desired case, mb that fits, etc, and your choice of intel chip. pretty much it's just a software suite now, but it's damn good software. might be cheaper to get a mac mini to get the software w/ bonus components, i'd have to tally up both to find out...

edit: that specific thing, intel/mobo, you are looking for might take a cycle to get to market, though. otherwise just check a few sites. it'll come out eventually i'm sure (at some point damage ones will have to be replaced outside of warranty, right? thus the market will be born).

[Solon]

264. I know its upgradable...

Basically all I'm interested in is the ROM chip on Mactels, I want to buy THAT, legally, so that my computer can dual boot Linux and MacOS X. Problem is this, I'm NOT getting a refurbished one, nor am I going to wait for a long time. Also, Mac Minis AREN'T cheap, especially considering their specs, I can get a Mobo/CPU that well exceeds the fastest Intel Mini for about 300 bucks(the top Minis are like 800). My budget maxes out at about 300-400 bucks, no more than that.

[Irreverend IX]

201. No surprise...

Dells are the cheapest crap in the computer world; they've been racing down the path of low quality and thin profit margins offset by super-high volume, and now they're about to reach rock bottom. Building a computer with parts of your own choice will far surpass any of the crap peddled by pre-manufactured PC companies. And Macs are a great choice if you want to be locked into an architecture that will force you to make expensive upgrades every year or two and pay through the nose to access basic functions and services.

[conflictgirl]

208. Glad I could contribute!

I just ordered a Mac Mini, it should be here within the next few days. I realize it's not one of the super tricked-out (read: expensive) Apple models, but it's what I could afford for now and it will get me away from Microsoft.

My PC has been one nightmare after another this summer. I can't wait to switch.

[Rex]

212. It's those funny ass commercials of the Mac and Windoze guys.

Which, I would love to support but think it is funny how Mac commercial makers view 'hip' people. :rofl:

Hey Mac people, the Mac guy looks like a drug dealer and acts like a speed freak. The Windoze guy is hillarious, Bill Gates on Stupid pills! :rofl:

[Neshanic]

222. A portly Bill Gates with that cool jeans young smart ass slacker...

It's hilarious personification of two systems.

[fujiyama]

218. Death of the PC? Not quite yet...

The PC is such a broad term that it absorbed Mac into its realm. The Intel architecture is constantly evolving and even Apple has decided to go ahead and use them.

Dells, while certainly holding a huge share of the PC market is far from the only one out there. HP seems to be doing quite well. I work in engineering (CATIA V5) and there are no Apples in sight. The CAD PCs are HPs and seem to work pretty well. I don't see most companies switching over to Apples anytime soon.

Personally, I've never liked Dells or Gateways (I've heard horror stories about them in recent years). We have two Dells at home and I wass never impressed with either. One was a Celeron piece of junk and the other was an Inspiron or some other crappy laptop. Like several others on this thread, I'm a tinkerer/builder. The one I'm using now has been running almost continuously for several years. It works fine. It didn't cost much either. Granted, I cheaped out on certain parts but it was my first time building and also a learning experience. It's time to upgrade/build a new one soon, so I'll be on Newegg and other sites. I'm using mine as an HTPC and for that I'll be needing a ton of disc space and processing power.

My friend, an aspiring filmmaker uses a Mac though and for his purposes I see it's working out very well...but I don't consider APples infallible as some might put it. There may be some odd design issues with his laptop. He mentioned something about the keyboard possibly scratching the screen when closing it. I'm not sure if that's just his model though. And I never liked iTunes, or the one-button mouse either.

I would consider Apples (especially since the new ones can natively run Windows) and think its an innovative company, but for me it still seems pricey for a slick lookin' product. Until it's as cheap to upgrade an Apple as a PC, I'll stick with the PC for now. I like the flexibility the PC provides.

[minkyboodle]

220. Can't resist posting this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA3NyRr4Eng
I build my own PCs and I realize that most people
aren't into that. I enjoy it. That said Macs and PCs
both have their good qualities and macs are better
for some and PC's are better for others. My problem
is not with apple its with their arrogant marketing
and legion of fanboys that feel the need to defend
macs online and insult PC users at the same time.
PS Dell does indeed suck these days

[CrownPrinceBandar]

223. Love it.........

"You shut the fuck up you pompous prick before I shove this iPod up your ass."

Yup. That's about how I feel about pretentious Mac fanboyz who think its alright to make themselves feel better by vilifying PC users. They're fucking computers for Dog's sake! What a stupid thing to have a division about. Its like a Pacer driver making fun of someone who owns a Gremlin. DUMB!

Fellow PC builder here as well.

[MazeRat7]

225. The amusing part here is reading the diatribes of average consumers....

I really like the part where folks confuse core technology with operating system and vendor.

So answer me this, what operating system does your RISC or CISC processor run ?

Does your favorite vendor sell systems with one or both architectures ?

Do you understand that the same operating system can run on both technologies and do you know which OS's are supported on each platform ?

Do you even know the difference ?

Do you not understand that the core technology of the "PC" is vendor agnostic ?

More than likely not... *sheesh.

MZr7

[kineneb]

235. no confusion here

but then I am a closet geek. I do understand the difference between hardware and operating system; I am a Linux user and have loaded different distros of that OS on a number of systems, mostly for personal use. I also built one of my own computers. We were just at LinuxWorld. At one point, I had Win98 running over the top of Linux, as I would never trust a MS system as my basic operating system. I have since graduated to a Linux-only desktop computer, and find I can do everything I want with the open source software now available.

geek moment /off

(Guess what? My degree is in Music History, and I have never taken a computer course in my life. My first experience with programming was in high school, on an huge programmable calculator. After learning octal machine code, nothing frightens me.)

[Solon]

237. Here neither...

The differences between a Macintosh branded PC and a "Regular" PC is that the Mac has an extra ROM chip so that OSX can run on it without an ugly hack. This is perhaps my greatest point of annoyance, people say "Get a Mac! Its Great."
Yeah, I would, except I can't afford to spend over 500 dollars for a TOP OF THE LINE Macintosh. I just looked, at several sites, and no surprise, but the only Mac Motherboards I can find are for vintage, refurbished, PowerMacs(Power PC chips). I can't find one Intel Mac mobo setup that I can buy removed from its damned expensive case.

I'm looking to upgrade, my CPU and Mobo, that's it, I don't NEED anything else right now, by the way, Linux ROCKS, my old assed PC right now(1.25 GHz Athalon XP, 256 MB RAM, 128 MB Nvidia card) just cruises with XGL and Compiz installed and running. I don't know HOW it squeezes this much power out of my computer, but it does, I'm surprised.

[Swamp Rat]

238. HAHAHA!!! Look at all the nasty, mean spirited posts on this thread!

:rofl: :rofl: Over COMPUTERS!!! :rofl: :rofl:

[Ishoutandscream2]

241. Thank you, the voice of sanity

My wife always ask why I read posts from a bunch of computer nerds. I tell her that I get most of my news here (very true). But this thread is making my wife's assessment correct.

[USA_1]

242. I Have An Inspiron B130 And It SUCKS!

This is an overpriced piece of shit --- do yourselves a favor by not buying one. The one I got had faulty software and it took forever to fix that shit up. Now the DELL owners refuse to exchange my PC and refuse to give me an extended warranty at a lower price than I had initially bargained for. You call them up and some guy who barely speaks English makes all kinds of promises about how great their machines are and that their services are unmatchable. But it's nothing more than salesmanship BUSHSHIT.

No more DELL products for me.

HEY DELL --- GO TO HELL!!!

[Hippo_Tron]

249. I just bought a Dell, but it will probably be my last one

My school's tech support is easiest for Dells and Macs. I've been using PC for all of my life and I just couldn't get used to the Mac. I will probably build my next computer from scratch.

[The Revolution]

268. That's the way to go

Building your own PC is very satisfying. Nothing beats the feeling you get when you finish putting it all together and hit the power button for the fist time. (Of course if nothing happens when you hit the button... :))

[Maestro]

267. I don' think that it is the death of the PC

but rather companies and private consumers realizing what shitty computers Michael Dell produces. And the fact that there is a massive recall on laptop batteries doesn't help things either.

[DainBramaged]

289. (sigh) you Dell haters all missed one point entirely,

In ALL of your attempts to bash Dell, you Dell haters forgot to mention who made the batteries for them.

Sony

Bad Sony bad.


So, will you Dell haters now call for the downfall of Sony too?


Does anything ever make you haters happy?


Leave the hate for the Repukes, stop emulating them.

[nedbal]

274. Any Tablet notebook users? and would you ever go back to ....

the standard hinged notebook, do you use the tablet function often or at all?

[globalvillage]

275. Less about product than accounting

That's my guess. Although I wouldn't buy a Dell.
I did buy a Gateway (at Costco) recently, and love it.
Buy blue!

http://www.buyblue.org/directory/40

[jmowreader]

290. I think I know why Dell's not doing so hot

One must first understand that PCs are a commodity item. Unless you're a gamer or an engineer, you're buying on price, service and features, not necessarily in that order.

Okay, so why is Dell's stock in the crapper?

1) Dell is primarily a direct seller. That worked well ten years ago when stores didn't sell PCs. Guys, over the Christmas season I had PCs in my store...and I work at a lumberyard. You can buy PCs ANYWHERE these days. So let's see...I can go to any store in town, plunk down my form of payment and walk out with a PC on a flat cart...or I can pick up the phone, call Dell and have my PC tomorrow morning. Hmmm...decisions, decisions...and Dell isn't enough cheaper than Circuit City to use that to tip the scale in Dell's direction. IIRC Best Buy sells Dell, but they sell many other brands too.

The single-unit buyer has, by and large, abandoned Dell, so Dell is going hard after two markets: corporate sales, where a thousand units are drop-shipped to your location, and GSA sales. Unfortunately for them, CompUSA and Best Buy will also play in the corporate and GSA markets. And Best Buy has their "Geek Squad" of road techs--VERY important if you're running a company with just a few PCs. They're kinda expensive if you've got 500 seats, but if you have five it's a different story.

2) Dell's technical support is indecipherable. They're a very heavy user of the Indian call center system. You can't understand these people's speech. And sadly, thanks to the internets people KNOW that if they will need help with their computers, they really can't get it from Dell.

3) I looked at the economy, folks. It ain't doin' so hot. When companies are seeing business downturns, they don't buy capital equipment like computers--and Dell is very dependent on corporate sales.

And the most important one...

4) Windows Vista is about to drop. The intelligent Windows consumer knows that the easiest and best way to upgrade to the latest version of Windows is to buy a new machine. The beginning Windows consumer knows that if Microsoft upgrades Windows, the latest and greatest technologies will all be in the new version--so why buy a computer now then have to turn around and spend a couple hundred dollars to get the latest and greatest when they can wait a couple of months for Vista to drop and buy a new computer with it installed?

If I'm thinking right, Windows XP dropped right after Christmas and it killed the Christmas shopping season for a lot of computer retailers plus fucked up the 4Q for most computer builders because no one was buying then. This isn't really unprecedented.

[DainBramaged]

292. What do you base your opinions on? Any facts at all? Links?

The single-unit buyer has, by and large, abandoned Dell

Prove that one. It will be fun to watch you try. They sold 37 million units last year. Think the bulk shipped to corporations? I guess every person who watches TV reads our opinions here on DU (biased though they may be) regarding computer choice.

[jmowreader]

293. Dell is a HUGE player in the government market

This is probably the largest piece of their market. (I'm going on intuition here. I've dealt with government purchasing from both sides of the counter.) Dell was one of the first small computer companies to have a GSA Schedule.

The GSA Schedule is very important if you want to play in the government market. If you are a government purchasing agent and I am a vendor, there are two ways you can purchase from me.

The first is competitive bidding. If you want to use the competitive bidding system, you issue a Solicitation for Bids. I have two choices here: I can surf the GSA website looking for SFBs I want to answer, or I can hire a solicitation broker who does the same thing and sends me SFBs that match what I do--if I sell tools, I don't want to get SFBs for furnaces. After the bids are opened, the GPO publishes all of the submitted bids and buys from the vendor who offers the best deal.

Or I can create a catalog called a GSA Schedule. By doing so I am contracted to sell what's in it for the price listed in the catalog until the expiration date of said catalog (there are exceptions--if you're dealing in commodity items whose price floats, like lumber, the price is allowed to track the market, and if the price of the thing you're selling goes through the roof you're allowed to issue a new catalog). The flipside is that, by offering to hold my price steady for, usually, one full year, I don't have to go through the competitive bidding process. The agency who wants my stuff can just pick up the catalog, find the thing they want, and order it.

This probably accounts for half of their business. And I think sales to businesses account for about three-fourths of the rest--businesses want "account executives" on their accounts, and Dell offers that.

Now let's talk single-unit sales. There is a certain percentage of our populace that buys things from television--which explains why there's a place in the marketplace for both HSN and QVC. For the rest of the United States, we wait to receive the things we buy for exactly two reasons: the thing we want isn't available locally, and the thing we want is way cheaper if we order it. Dell used to have the line on both of these. Now? Thanks to places like Wal-Mart and Best Buy, quality computers that are reasonably priced with many popular features are available to everyone in America. There's really not a NEED to shop Dell, the way there was in the past. Used to be, you couldn't get a decent computer in Billings, Montana, unless you wanted to spend three or four thousand dollars for a machine targeted at business. Now you can.

Here's the real reason I know single-unit has become a minor part of Dell's business: In retail we talk of "season." There is a prime selling season for any class of product--for lawn mowers it's in the spring, for cigars it's the four weeks centered on Father's Day, for linens it's late summer. Computers' season is the summertime so students will have them before school opens--and for computers sold via mail order, it's early summer so you know you will have it. You are looking, right now, at the annual report for Dell's season.

[DainBramaged]

294. Still an opinion, no facts, no answer. Show me facts for both opinions

[alfredo]

291. Mac Pro $1,000 less than comparible Dell.

If this review of the new Mac Pro is any indication, Dell is in serious trouble at the top end of their market.

http://tinyurl.com/pzfaf


Apple officials have been touting the price competitiveness of the Mac Pro and how for the first time in history a Mac is cheaper than the equivalent hardware on the PC side. "Professionals who are in the workstation market will find that the Mac Pro is priced $1,000 less than a comparably configured Dell computer," said Tom Boger, Apple's senior director of worldwide product marketing.

That's not just hyperbole. The Mac Pro is cheaper than similarly outfitted hardware from Dell inc. And it makes one heck of a machine on which to run both Mac OS X and Windows XP. (Like Apple's other Intel-based machines, the Mac Pro does Windows.) The standard configuration, as I mentioned earlier, starts at $2,499; A Dell Precision 690 configured the same goes for $3,448. Of course, Dell gives all sorts of discounts depending on the day, time, and position of the moons around Saturn -- so your mileage may vary. But the standard pricing is what most people will be offered.

snip

Apple has posted Spec integer benchmarks for the new machine that show performance more than twice that of the Quad G5. While quantitative analysis is great, real-world, qualitative performance is what will matter to users and their clients. So, how did Apple's latest and greatest perform? In any application compiled for Universal binary -- meaning it runs natively on Intel chips -- the speed increase was dramatic. Noticeable. Just plain " Wow that is fast." Take your pick. Watching a 6MB image of a Mini Cooper -- the file had 1.54 million polygons, and 1.28 million vertices -- rendered with Luxology Modo on both a Quad G5 and the Mac Pro was an example of fast and faster. When the Mac Pro was done the Quad G5 was still chugging along, only about one-quarter of the way done with the file.