The Ramsey side is eager to pin the murder on this wack job. They suck.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

I think they know for a fact he didn't do it but they're trying to focus the attention on Karr even if Karr ends up in prison for life or executed. I also heard they gave police a huge list of "suspects" when the murder happened including the santa clause at their party.

They suck.

[hlthe2b]

1. no... I don't think that will happen. Unless he is DNA matched

to the "unknown" source material at the scene-- I don't see these charges ever sticking.

[jerry611]

3. If the DNA comes back negative...

There is no way in hell the prosecution can pursue this case.

[soothsayer]

16. well, the kook can assert he didn't act alone, but he was THERE

[sandnsea]

15. I agree

Too many experts have attached nearly every bit of evidence to one or the other Ramsey at some point in time, huge reasonable doubt case would be easy to build. I can't see ever getting a conviction without the DNA or the missing tablet pages or the missing stick. If they do have something withheld, it would have to be pretty damning and conclusive to convict on. We shall see. It would be nice for this case to be resolved.

[Kagemusha]

2. I can understand the santa, actually.

You're looking for someone who really "adores kids". Probably a lot on that list I'd have more of a problem with.

Sounds bad, though.

[Dick Diver]

18. Additionally...

The police almost certainly asked for a list of EVERYONE who was in the house and the Ramseys were simply complying. Nothing sinister there.

[LostinVA]

21. The "Santa" was a neighbor

And, all legit profilers say evidence points to an "insider" -- someone who knew the family and home well. He actually made sense, although he was cleared.

[Kagemusha]

41. Yes, precisely...

The Santa is one of the few that does make sense... ironically. At least to check alibis and clear the person.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

43. My view is he knows it wasn't the Santa OR Karr

but tried to implicate them

[LostinVA]

44. Toobin's book talks about this quite a bit

The Ramseys' "moving finger."

[Quixote1818]

4. Can we wait and see what the DNA test says?

Seems to me the Ramsey's have urged caution on pinning this Guy before all the facts are in. I am sure the police asked them for a list of potential "suspects" so they could get some leads.

Doesn't this belong in the lounge?

[Ammonium]

5. I dunno...

He doesn't really fit who they are looking for when you start to look at the evidence harder. I'm sure the guy is a sick pedophile but I don't think he killed her.

1. He claims he drugged her and then raped her.
There were no drugs in her system upton her death, there is semen though, which they will of course test

2. Mr. Ramsey does not know this man at all.
In the ransom note left at the scene, the killer demands a ransom of $118,000 from the family. It just so happens that $118,000 was the exact amount of Mr. Ramsey's christmas bonus that year.

[LostinVA]

22. The ex wife has a pretty firm alibi for him

I think most people would know if their spouse mysteriously left them and their three children during Christmas. And, by all accounts, she loathes the guy and even had a protective order against him. She has no reason to help him out.

[jobycom]

33. She's backed off it a bit

It was first reported that she knew he was with her and had pictures. Now she's saying she doesn't remember a Christmas when they weren't together while they were married, which was over a decade.

[LostinVA]

45. I just read in the Denver Post this morning she's gathering

photos, etc. to give her lawyer.

I kinda think someone would remember if their husband abandoned them and their children on Xmas Eve/Xmas.

[jobycom]

47. We'll see, I guess.

If she's got proof, that settles it. I can see this going either way.

I can't remember my Christmas from 1996. I can figure out details, like how old my daughter was, and where I worked. I can't remember if I was here in Austin, or visiting relatives. I can't remember whether we celebrated it on Christmas or opened presents early or late. If Karr's ex can, then she can, but her statement isn't conclusive enough to decide the matter. Pictures with some irrefutable time evidence would be conclusive.

I just hope there is something conclusive, either way.

[tabatha]

6. article

This article has more info - appears that Suwat propagated erroneous information.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060819/ap_on_re_us/jonbenet_ramsey

Judgment should be left to the courts.

No-one can say what anybody thinks - no-one is a mind-reader.

[Bobbieo]

8. This will back fire on the Ramseys on the long run -

if the guy is innocent of the charges.

[WinkyDink]

13. Yeah, we don't judge anyone here or in the Real World. It's

against the law or something to have an opinion.

[LostinVA]

23. I don't believe the General either way

His backpedaling seems..... fishy.

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. If you murdered your daughter, wouldn't you want some guy like

that to show up?

[Jazz2006]

10. If you didn't murder your daughter,

wouldn't you also want a suspect to show up?

Edit to add: I have formed no opinion whatsoever on the guilt or innocence of this particular suspect in the matter except to the extent that, in my view, he is innocent until proven guilty, (hmm, I guess some might say that's me forming an opinion on the guilt or innocence of the suspect, however, anyone with critical thinking skills knows what I mean) but it seems from your post that you have formed an opinion on the guilt of the parents, which is why I responded as I did.

[Jazz2006]

9. The "Ramsey side"?

Who comprises this "Ramsey side" of which you speak?

[LostinVA]

25. The Ramsey's own PI's, including an ex-detective of the

Boulder force who became extremely close to the Ramseys. He and the other PIs are the ones who directed the "investigation" via Tracy's emails to Karr.

One note: the "santa bear: is used a s a "clue" in the emails Karr sent, even though it was proven that JB received the little bear at a pageant before her death. There's video of the bear with JonBenet and her Mom...

[Irreverend IX]

11. "You're almost home free, Burke!"

"All we have to do is pin the murder on this nutjob and you won't have to live in fear of the day the cops finally connect the dots!"

[WinkyDink]

12. John R. is---to me---preternaturally subdued in the face of Karr's

arrest. I would be shaking with fury at seeing, at long last, the killer of my beloved child.

Phony-baloney, every bit of this story.

[roguevalley]

14. I think if he's the one, they will feel relief. I have friends who had a

family member murdered and it took ten or twelve years to find the idiot. They were deeply relieved.

[Jamastiene]

24. It's true.

I have never seen John Ramsey show much emotion in any interview since the little girl was murderred. He has always been too calm and too unemotional about it.

[Beausoir]

31. I thought so too. n/t

[jobycom]

39. He gets emailed confessions with some frequency, according to the police

And it's no secret that dozens or maybe hundreds have confessed to this crime since it happened. Of course he's subdued, this is nothing new, aside from the arrest and the secret details Karr knows. And like any of us, he knows Karr could have picked those up anywhere. Not to mention his wife just died. He's got experience at controlling his emotions. You think he's going to go on television and start screaming and cursing, before he's sure? He's also privy to many details we don't know, so he's got a better idea of the likelihood of this suspect than any of us do.


Sure, John Ramsey may have been involved, but his demeanor isn't proof of anything. I wouldn't rule out Karr as easily as some have done. SO far most of what we know about his story and his alibis are third or fourth hand accounts. The real story here is the what Karr supposedly told investigators--the facts that supposedly have never reached the public. IF those facts have indeed never been leaked, and they aren't the kind of things he can guess at from other evidence, then he had to get them from someone who knows. An investigator, someone with the ME's office, or the killer. If he's not the killer, there's a chance he knows who is.

[wordpix2]

46. I know, his demeanor & Patsy's is/were bizarre---no emotion there

[WI_DEM]

17. Actually Ramsey made a statement saying "not to jump conclusions"

[Jamastiene]

19. Actually, I read on a story last night

that quoted John Ramsey saying to give our legal system time to sort things out before passing judgement. I haven't seen anything to the contrary. Can you post a link?

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. Question...

...been working a lot of weird hours lately so I haven't been able to keep up with this story.

Tonight on the radio on the way home I just caught the tail end of a report about some doll/teddy bear/etc they had found in the Ramsey house the night of the murder which didn't belong to them, and that the same teddy/doll/whatever has been found in a picture of Karr as a kid. What was that about?

For the record I do not believe he did it either.

[LostinVA]

26. That is totally not true, and was proven a while ago

The media are such liars. Here you go:


Shylock 05-23-2004 06:12 PM
If you're talking about the "Santa bear", it was resolved a long time ago to the satisfaction of the D.A. who asked anyone who knew about it to come forward.

And I have no idea what "anonymous letter from Shreveport, LA" you are talking about.

Ivy 05-23-2004 06:28 PM
Author of Anonymous Letter Mailed From Shreveport
Sought by Boulder Police Department

On February 7, 1997 it was learned that an anonymous letter mailed to Boulder detectives might contain potentially significant information about the JonBenét Ramsey case. Police pleaded for the author to come forward.

The handwritten letter was mailed from Shreveport, La., and postmarked January 27. As far as it is known, the author has never been identified.

Source


In an About.com chat, Thomas wrote this about the Shreveport note: "short and sweet, a former friend of Patsy's, she wrote, saying we needed to look more at JR and PR early in the case. Some hints and innuendoes. nothing case breaking."

http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/aa051800b.htm

imo

Spade 05-23-2004 08:15 PM
From Patsy's 2000 interview

2 Q. In December of 1998, there was a
3 fairly well publicized request from the
4 Boulder Police Department for assistance in
5 identifying and perhaps retrieving a Santa
6 Bear. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it your understanding that the
9 bear that was sought was the same bear that
10 you were shown photographs of in 1998 June?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The same bear that you were
13 unable to identify?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We collectively, the prosecution
16 team, received from either Mr. Morgan or Mr.
17 Haddon the bear, the bear. Is that your
18 understanding?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did we get it? I mean, what
21 was your participation in the chain of events
22 that led to the recovery of that bear?
23 A. The -- well, I think our lawyers
24 asked Gene Matthews, who was a local retired
25 police officer who had helped us with some
0144
1 security at our home --
2 Q. Your home in Atlanta?
3 A. In Atlanta.
4 -- to go through boxes and look
5 for the bear.
6 Q. Did you assist him or is it her?
7 A. It is a him.
8 Q. Okay. Did you assist Mr.
9 Matthews, you personally?
10 A. You mean in digging through boxes?
11 Q. No. In offering suggestions to
12 where to look.
13 A. Well, I believe at that time we
14 were in the throes of a remodeling session,
15 and JonBenet's things that had come out of
16 her room in Colorado were packed and were in
17 the basement at my mother and father's house
18 in Roswell, Georgia.
19 So I told him that is where he
20 should start looking.
21 Q. Mrs. Ramsey, you emphatically
22 denied, in June of 1998, knowledge of that
23 bear. Did you have a change of
24 recollection, following the interviews in
25 1998, as to whether or not you had prior
0145
1 knowledge of that bear?
2 MR. WOOD: Do you know what he
3 is asking you?
4 THE WITNESS: Do I recognize the
5 bear?
6 MR. WOOD: The emphatic part is
7 the only thing that concerns me. I am not
8 denying that it was emphatic, but I think
9 the point is you denied it in June of 1998,
10 and the question I think he is asking you is
11 when you found it, did that jog your
12 recollection that you might remember the
13 bear. Is that what you are asking?
14 MR. LEVIN: That is not quite the
15 question, but it is pretty close.
16 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I am asking
17 you is, in June of 1998, you stated I do
18 not recognize this bear?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. You recall that. The cry went
21 out for help in locating the origin of the
22 bear. Did you, at some point between our
23 request for assistance and in June of 1998,
24 have an opportunity to rethink the origin of
25 the bear and realize that that was, in fact,
0146
1 JonBenet's Santa Bear?
2 MR. WOOD: I think you meant
3 between your request and December of 1998.
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Between June of
5 1998 and our request for help in December of
6 1998 --
7 MR. WOOD: That's right.
8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) -- did your
9 recollection get jogged and you realized that
10 you did, in fact, own the bear?
11 A. No. I mean, it was still a bear
12 that I did not recognize.
13 Q. Have you since that time had
14 anything that has refreshed your recollection
15 in that regard so that you now presently
16 know the source of that bear?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I am going to provide you with
19 some information to see if we can jog your
20 memory. I have seen a videotape taken at a
21 pageant in December, in fact, December 14,
22 1996. I think that was -- was that the
23 last -- I believe that was the last pageant
24 that JonBenet participated in.
25 MR. WOOD: Is that right?
0147
1 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I am asking you
2 if that is your recollection as well.
3 THE WITNESS: Is that the
4 Christmas, one of the Christmas ones down by
5 the --
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. All right.
8 Q. Was that the last formal pageant
9 she participated in?
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
11 Q. I have seen a videotape of that.
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 Q. And in the videotape it shows the
14 prizes.
15 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
16 Q. And that bear is in the videotape
17 with you in the videotape?
18 A. Oh, really?
19 Q. And JonBenet won that bear at
20 that pageant. Assuming that that is a
21 fact --
22 MR. WOOD: And you represent it
23 as fact.
24 MR. LEVIN: I'm representing that
25 it is my belief that that is true, and I
0148
1 have seen videotape that shows what appears
2 to be that bear.

popcorn 05-23-2004 10:45 PM
wine cellar revisited

"JonBenet's things that had come out of her room in Colorado and were packed and were in the basement at my mother and father's house"

Odd they didn't want to be close to what remnants there were of their daughter. I've heard of parents not wanting to move a single thing from a dead child's room. Guess they didn't want to be reminded of what she did to their lives or is that what they did to hers.

tipper 05-23-2004 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by popcorn
"JonBenet's things that had come out of her room in Colorado and were packed and were in the basement at my mother and father's house"

Odd they didn't want to be close to what remnants there were of their daughter. I've heard of parents not wanting to move a single thing from a dead child's room. Guess they didn't want to be reminded of what she did to their lives or is that what they did to hers.
Complete quote:
A. Well, I believe at that time we
14 were in the throes of a remodeling session,
15 and JonBenet's things that had come out of
16 her room in Colorado were packed and were in
17 the basement at my mother and father's house
18 in Roswell, Georgia.

It sounds like they were being temporarily stored in Roswell.

solosamtheman 05-24-2004 01:31 PM
down the hall

(quote)
Its always has struck me as odd that JohnAndrews room was next to JBR's with Burke all the way down the hallway with an empty guest room next to him..............To me it wouldve made more sense to have the "boys" on one side and JBR on the other end...............I dont think there was anything sinister w/ having JA next to JBR but it just always came off as something a bit weird..............anyone else notice this??? (end of quote)///// Well now that could be explained away rather easily if you look at it from a protective parents point. They might have rather had an adult close to her room as a protective device more so than plain just not thinking about it. And quite possibly have been putting a "buffer" between Burke and JonBent which may raise an eyebrow or two but when you're talking about the kind of police work that doesnt even jump on the testimony of the niece in the Westerfield VanDam trial where she testified that she woke up to Westerfield putting his fingers in her mouth (do you have any idea why he was doing that?) well then you can't expect them to put any importance in to something as simple to explain away as that. Just my opinion........darn I had another thought......shucks, gee whiz......dont call the thought police...please!!

Ivy 05-24-2004 02:03 PM
Hi, solosamtheman. I don't think there was anything sinister about JAR's bedroom being next to JonBenet's, although now that you mention it, yes, it does seem kind of odd. Maybe each kid, including JAR, decided which room was more "them" than the other rooms, or maybe Patsy decided, based on the decorating possibilities of each room. I can see that there might have been more to it, though.

What was the other thought you said you had? (There may be a few here who would call the thought police, but most of us have nothing to do with Jameson and her forum.)

imo

Shylock 05-24-2004 03:39 PM
Ivy, do you know if they checked the Santa Bear's DNA? Has he been officially cleared?

LOL

Ivy 05-24-2004 04:33 PM
OMG, Shylock, I don't know, but if they haven't checked the Santa Bear's DNA, they need to do it pronto! The red fibers might not be Patsy's after all!

imo

messiecake 05-24-2004 04:43 PM
I asked about the bear becauseI just always got the feeling that it had been imitated that the Santa teddy was another "intruder" clue and I never had a final answer to it(although after reading the transcript I cant say Im surprised that another supposed Intruder comes back to point directly at the Ramseys!!!!!!!) and the same with the letter.Ive heard different things about the contents and it seemed Boulder P.D was dying to find the author you'd think it was important!

Ivy 05-24-2004 07:09 PM
messiecake, I'm glad you asked about the Santa Bear and the letter. I didn't remember exactly how the SB mystery turned out, and I hadn't even heard about the letter till you brought it up. (I found the bit of info I posted about the letter by using Google.) Anyway, thanks. :)

imo

Eagle1 05-24-2004 08:46 PM
Good Questions, Messycake

Hang on and maybe someone will have more answers. I confess I too wondered why JAR's room was close to JonBenet instead of Burke. Someone mentioned protection, and if that was the case, seens to me it means they must have known the kids should have been on the top floor.

ayjey 05-25-2004 05:24 AM
Seems like I remember reading that the Ramsey's did some shuffling of the kids rooms after John's oldest daughter died.

Anyone else remember this?

ayjey 05-25-2004 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayjey
Seems like I remember reading that the Ramsey's did some shuffling of the kids rooms after John's oldest daughter died.

Anyone else remember this?




I guess not

Jayelles 05-26-2004 03:57 AM
Room shuffles

Was that not when Patsy had cancer?

Maikai 05-26-2004 04:09 AM
The Santa Bear was one

of many prizes given out at the pageant, and Patsy simply didn't remember it.....or might not have even been aware of it. JR bundled up the prizes and carried them home. I believe the room shuffling was done during Patsy's bout with cancer, when she moved to the second floor to be closer to a bathroom and JBR just stayed in the room afterwards. JAR didn't normally sleep at the Ramsey house---but had a room there...I believe he stayed at his frat house.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/printthread.php?t=7831

[foreigncorrespondent]

29. Thanks for all that!

I will drop my radio station a letter with a link here so they stop the misinformation. And they will. They are a gay community sponsored radio station here in Melbourne, full of nothing but good leftie queers.

[LostinVA]

30. You're welcome!

Someone posted on here yesterday after the Santa Bear, and I was like -- wtf???

What I sent you was either the second or third Google hit.

[laylah]

27. "Santa" was exonerated;

however, due to the fact the Boulder police contaminated the crime scene by allowing family friends in to help with the search, trampling all over the house (I never DID understand how John found Jon Benet's body almost immediately), there had to have been several "suspects". Unfortunately, I have always felt Burke, who was 9 at the time, had something to do with this tragedy. I truly hope Karr is the one but that hope dims daily as I read more about this nutjob.

[arewenotdemo]

28. Truth IS stranger than fiction...

Karr has twin newborn daughters die at birth...at home where he is delivering them himself.

I find that very curious. He not only sounds like a total control freak/pedophile, I'd bet he had a perversely "religious" upbringing by his grandparents. To wit, one of his (surviving, male) children was named Seven Exodus.

The really strange thing is that the twins were named Angel and Innocence.

The title of the Ramsey's book on the murder and investigation: "The Death of Innocence".

I think they have the right freak in custody.

[mountainvue]

38. Wow. I hadn't heard any of this info.

Also, just read in the Rocky Mountain News today that his ex wife had been posting on the Usenet site with him in '96.

http://www.powerwurks.com/

[elehhhhna]

32. Actually John Ramsey said "Don't rush to judgement, etc." --

IMO that's because he knows that Burke did it.

[Scout1071]

35. Exactly. He has been the most outspoken about not rushing to judgement.

The "Ramsey side"? What the hell is that.

I swear, I'm really getting fed up with GD for the first time in a very long time.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

42. He should have said "It's not him." His lawyer said they were relieved

nt

[Algorem]

34. 23% of Americans think "Macaca" killed J.B.Ramsey.

[Seabiscuit]

36. By now I think this wacko will flunk the DNA and handwriting tests.

My first reaction to the initial news of his arrest was to tell my wife: "and all these years I thought the Ramseys were guilty".

Perhaps I was right about it all before this nut was arrested.

[bluedog]

37. the media should back down on this case

when Jennifer Lungsford was killed....by John Couey.it was constant 24/7 coverage............so much so...the county couldn't find a juror who hasn't heard about the case......
this will happen with this man.......okay.they think they have her killer......fine....now Media.....just shut up and let the law enforcement people do their jobs............we don't need 24/7 coverage..............let it be!!!

[Fleshdancer]

40. if someone confessed to the brutal murder of MY daughter...

then it isn't too far fetched that I would take it seriously. It's so easy to judge when it isn't your life that has been ruined. As for Karr ending up in prison for life or executed, he shouldn't have confessed to the crime if he didn't do it. I care about an unjust system but I don't have much sympathy for this level of stupid. If he didn't do it, then he sucks. If he did do it, he sucks.

He'll be going to jail anyway for the 5 counts of kiddie porn he was charged with before fleeing the country. I have no sympathy for this guy.