I need help with this nasty e-mail forwarded from my neighbor.

[1monster]

She sent one entitled: Can a Muslim be a good American

Very Interesting Question!!

I forwarded that question to a friend that worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.
The following is his forwarded reply:


Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and __expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

I wrote back:
Did you know? There are more Muslims in the US than in any other country in the world?

This same argument could be used to conclude that any person of any religion could not make a good American....

Her challenge: show me an example of another religion!

So help me folks. First, I'd like to debunk the bigotry in the e-mail and then use the same sort of argument with as many other religions as possible.

My problem is that I stay away from formalized religions like they were poison (as, indeed, I think they are), so I don't have all the knowledge I need to do this on my own.

[Pierre.Suave]

1. WOW,

how about you just stop talking to these people and create an e-mail filter so you dont get their messages anymore.

[1monster]

6. Because she is a neighbor and a friend. Underneath all that

xenophobic aggression, she has a good heart. She even hates the Bushes.

She usually does not send me this kind of stuff because she knows I don't like it, but occasionally, she lets one through either accidentally or to try to change my mind.

[Lusted4]

21. That's not the e-mail of a good heart. sorry to break the news to ya. n/t

[1monster]

30. I've seen her go to the wall and indeed risk her job to stand up for

others.

She has a visceral reaction to things she has been conditioned to believe, but after time and patience, she will sometimes (and more often) come back and say that she is beginning to rethink her attitude or belief on whatever subject.

It is hard to over come early training or beliefs.

I know. I had a difficult time over coming my early religious training and still, on occasion, find myself automatically reverting to earlier learned rituals. And it has been nearly forty years since I stopped attending church services and thirty-two years since I left my parents' influences.

We have nearly stopped being friends or even talking a couple of times becasue of her knee-jerk reactions.

I have learned to simply step away for a while when she acts like that and quite often she reconsiders.

The deepest ingrained problem she has though, in my opinion, is the xenophobia.

[edwardsfeingold08]

44. I applaud you for your patience

If someone sent me that e-mail, I'd never speak to them again. But, that wouldn't change anything. Maybe you're approach is best, but I don't know how you do it.

I'd ask the sender what's the point of the e-mail? Should all Muslims be shipped out of the country and have their citizenship revoked? Should we burn crosses outside their houses and string them up on trees? Seriously, if they think all muslims are bad for the country, what is their proposed solution?

Instead of making some hypothetical argument about whether or not someone can be a good citizen, how about looking at all the criminals in this country who are not muslim. How about the child molesters, murderers, thiefs? How about the people stealing from 401k's, not providing health care, a living wage, etc.? I'd ask the sender to stop worrying about muslims and pay attention to the real evil in this country.

[newyawker99]

54. Hi edwardsfeingold08!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[rusty charly]

2. i'd love something also

i've gotten a different version of this from several people

would love a really well written response

[Bunny]

3. Substitute every reference to Islam, Allah, Koran, Mecca, etc. with

Christianity, God, Jesus, the Bible, etc. and send it back to him.

[skids]

4. Find out the guy's religion...

...and assuming he has one, rewrite the whole piece with tenets from that religion.

Then he'll say: oh but that's not how my religion really is, and you see neither was that how Muslims really are.

[JuniperLea]

5. Argh!

I hope a Muslim or someone knowledgeable chimes in! I can only speak from personal experience having worked with several Muslims. They were all damn fine people.

Tell your stupid neighbor that not all Christians are whack-job, end-timer, hypocritical, non-Christ-like fundies and not all Muslims are terrorists. Jeez.

[MichiganVote]

7. Well, Richard Nixon was a Quaker

And as we all know, they don't socialize outside their set, they don't permit their kids to attend public or private schools, they arrange marriages, and they shun their sinners.

[Straight Shooter]

8. My first thought is to check snopes.com and see if it's been debunked.

As for your neighbor, she's looking for an excuse to hate. People like that will always find a reason to justify their perception of the world. Logic is an inconvenience to them. Reagan spoke for such people when he said, "Facts are stupid things."

[1monster]

18. Just checked snoopes and it wasn't there....

:(

[roody]

9. Kennedy couldn't be a good American

because as a Catholic, his boss lived in Rome.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

23. Not

True

[salin]

53. No, but the issue was raised and pushed and subject

to "whisper" campaigns during his 1960 presidential campaign. I think the poster raised it to point out that the same ludicrous type of reasoning was used against Catholics for a long time in this country, including at the time of JFK's election.

[pretzel4gore]

10. the bible says 'judge not, or you'll be judged by your own measure'

it also says 'what is impossible for man is possible for god' and 'pride goeth beforeth the falleth' or howeth the fukketh it goeth....

[mrreowwr_kittty]

11. Aren't Catholics supposed to show allegiance to the Pope?

Wasn't that the concern over JFK during his campaign?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

25. Not

True

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

12. The answer is

Love one another.

[China_cat]

13. Another religion?

Judaism, Buddhism, Shinto, B'hai (sp), Scientology, Hindu, Santeria, hell, here's some links;

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.adherents.com/

[MrSlayer]

14. This is about the tenth time I've seen this one here this week.

Do a search, plenty of good rebuttals.

[JackintheGreen]

15. One HUUUUGE problem with your response:

You claim:

"I wrote back:
Did you know? There are more Muslims in the US than in any other country in the world?"

There are around 5 million muslims in the U.S.; the population of Indonesia, the largest muslim nation in the world, is 188 million.

You're off by a little bit. Not that your bigoted neighbor would know the difference.

As to debunking her argument, you can't focus on other, 'alien' religions. They'll just reinforce her bigotry. What you to do is focus on abstract Christian dogma that would make a paprallel argument. I cannot help you with such fineries, but the Skeptics Bible can!

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Plus, it's awesome!

Good luck.

[sendero]

17. I saw..

... some grass growing through the pavement...

[1monster]

22. Oops. I read somewhere that there were more Muslims in the US

than in any single Arab nation. I don't know if that is true or not, but obviously, even if it is not, I erred in saying "any other nation."

[JackintheGreen]

34. Iran: 68 million

Iraq: 26 million
Saudi Arabia: 26 million
Afghanistan: 30 million
Pakistan: 162 million
Uzbekistan: 28 million


These are just a few. But also check out

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/asia_general.html

[sendero]

16. Can anyone ..

.... Can anyone who believes that anyone professing to believe in pie-in-the-sky is absolved of any act other than suicide be a good person?

You decide. (btw - I'm not suggesting you counter that nonsense with this)

[rodeodance]

19. Can a Repug be a good American? Theoritically no, cause they

bow to king george.


fill in the rest. have fun

[Salviati]

20. Can a Christian be a good American?

(from http://www.noreligion.ca/index.php?topicID=47 which goes into a bit of detail on each point)
Theologically, no, because his allegiance is to Yahweh, the ancient Hebrew god.

Scripturally, no, because his allegiance is to Christianity and the bible.

Geographically, no, because his allegiance is to Israel, the home of "god's chosen people".

Socially, no, because his allegiance to Christianity forbids him to make friends with Muslims or Jews.

Politically, no, because he must submit to his spiritual leaders, who teach annihilation of all who do not share their faith.

Domestically, no, because he is encouraged to take slaves and beat them if they are disobedient.

Religiously, no, because no other religion is accepted by his Yahweh except Christianity - intolerance.

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the separation of church and state - a founding principle of the USA.

Philosophically, no, because Christianity, Yahweh, and the bible do not allow freedom of religion and expression.

Democratically, no, because Christianity and democracy cannot coexist.

Spiritually, no, because the Christian god is neither loving nor kind.





I'd argue that both of these lists are complete bunk (though the christian one is supposed to be...), and if there is any sort of -ism that is incompatable with being a good american it is fundimentalism.

[1monster]

26. Thanks. I appreciate it.

[acmejack]

28. Same discussion here last week

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x84478

[Rosemary2205]

24. My god if I see this one more time I'm going to scream.

IMHO you can't debunk this shit. The idiots that repeat it are beyond help

[1monster]

27. In truth, my main purpose is not to debunk it because I know that

debunking only works with people open to the truth.

However, I did tell her that the same sort of thing could be done with any religion and that is what I aim to do.

[Rosemary2205]

35. A couple factoids to toss on the pile

The US Law allows women to be teachers. -- The Bible specifically says women should not teach men.

US law allows women to vote -- but the Bible specifically says women should be silent in the "counsels".

[1monster]

41. Just added that to the email I'm composing as I read these great

replies. Thank you.

[xxqqqzme]

38. Agree - I received this particular

piece of hate mail from my mother - click delete - all gone!

[FreeState]

29. Mormonism is an example...

I was raised LDS (Mormon) here would be the same with my birth faith:

--------------

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to God the Father, the father of Jesus, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, all three separate Gods that make up the God Head.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God except Mormonism (Only Mormons can attain the highest level of heaven)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, the Bible and the Living Prophet.

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Zion (Jackson County Mo), to which Jesus shall return and rule.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam discourages him to make friends with others except in attempts to convert.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the leadership in Salt Lake, who teach that one day we will live in a 'pure' communistic state (called the United Order).

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed and makes promises in the Temple that men shall rule over their women in this life and the next.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept dissent from the status quo and are excommunicated if they publicly question their leaders.

Philosophically - no. Democracy and Mormonism cannot co-exist. Mormons believe Jesus will rule one day by the Law of God, not the law of man.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," Mormonism teaches that the LDS view of God is the ONLY true version of God and no one can be spiritually like god with out the Mormon church.

[1monster]

42. I used this in the rebuttal email.

Thank you.

[FreeState]

52. Glad I could help

hope it helps her see the truth:)

[zbdent]

31. Wait about two weeks, and then, in the dead of night,

draw a pentagram on the front yard with plant killer ... preferably the clear kind ... make sure to follow the directions ... some of those products may be affected by rain ...

[Rosemary2205]

36. that's seriously mean.

but funny as hell! :)

[zbdent]

57. I have a similar situation with a local radio a-hole RW dj ...

earlier this week, I sent an e-mail missive about how he would be right in line with the godhatesfags.com crowd ... after he had a rant on the air about the "anti-war protesters".

I got a reply from him similar to "Whoa, I don't know what you're talking about ... you're all over the place" (I wasn't).

Of course, I used one of my alternate e-mail addresses ... one that doesn't go to a real person.

So, I re-replied with another missive, this one which pointed out that I knew some info about him. Haven't heard a peep.

So, I'm gonna wait another week or two, then go to an anonymous PC and sign his e-mail address up for places like godhatesfags.com and such ...

[Skittles]

32. ok 1monster

I kick this neighbor's ass for having to gall to even think they could forward such utter f****ing garbage to me. I mean, really. :puke:

[savemefromdumbya]

33. Your neighbor needs to have a crash course in Islam

she's obvioously anti-Muslim (just how Bush wants one to be).

[jhrobbins]

37. Sounds like a syllogistic thingy...

Many Americans believe (or are told by Hannity, O'Reilly, Carlson, et al) that all terrorists are Muslim and they then infer therefore that all Muslims must be terrorists. Its called a faulty syllogism.

[HockeyMom]

39. Sounds like Ralph Reed statement

on Larry King years ago. "You cannot be a good citizen, unless you are a good CHRISTIAN". See, this thinking is nothing new. Just look at at what is being said now after Lamont's win. So if you are Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Atheist, etc., or for that matter, DEMOCRAT, you are a bad American, i.e, a TERRORIST.

Do the majority of Americans subscribe to this kind of thinking. I doubt it. I hope not.

[kiahzero]

40. Here's one I wrote to that same e-mail:

I found this to be very thought provoking. Interesting read.
I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Someone failed Religious Studies. Allah is Arabic for "God," and refers to the God of Abraham (you know, the same one that Christians worship). Unsurprisingly, it is the same exact word that Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians use to refer to the God of Abraham. Muslims believe that God has attempted to give his word to mankind three times - first via Moses, second via Jesus, third via Mohammad, and that the reason for this repetition is that people kept translating it into different languages, getting the message wrong, or deifying the messenger. That's why the Arabic Qu'ran is considered to be authoritative.


Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Yet Islam was revolutionary for its religious tolerance - of the three Abrahamic faiths, it is the only one that explicitly says in its holy book that followers are to respect the other People of the Book (referring to Jews and Christians).

This, of course, is neglecting that neither orthodox Christianity or Judaism features a deity accepting of other religions ("You shall have no other God before Me?").


Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

No more than any other person's "allegiance" is to their religion. Is your allegience to the Ten Commandments? Note: If your name is Roy Moore, don't answer this question. We already know the answer.


Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Facing Mecca, a holy landmark, has nothing to do with "allegiance."


Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Plain and simple lies.


Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Mullahs are Islamic clergy, analogous to priests and ministers. Much like there are some priests or ministers who do things like call for the democracy of the United States to be dismantled, or rape little boys. Similarly, there are some Islamic clergy who teach anti-Semetic interpretations of scripture and argue that America is the enemy. It would be pure sophistry to argue that, because some Catholic priests raped little boys, or some Protestent ministers embezzled money from their churches, that all Christians rape children and steal money. Similarly, it is ridiculous to assert that all Muslims are anti-American based on the statements of a few.


Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

The Bible says you should be put to death for working on the Sabbath, that you may sell your daughter into slavery, and that mixing two fabrics in one garment is an abomination. Isn't it fun to take religious texts out of context?


Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

I am not surprised in the least to find that someone so uninformed about religion would also have failed their civics lessons. The U.S. Constitution is in no way, shape, or form based on Biblical principles. Furthermore, Islam does not hold the Bible to be corrupt (the best way of describing it would be something like 'poorly translated')


Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Mohammad was a pioneer in religious tolerance; stating that he "did not allow freedom of religion" is patently absurd. You're flat-out wrong when you say that every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic - you neglected to consider Turkey, for instance. Furthermore, even if your assertion were true, it still wouldn't prove your argument that democracy and Islam are incompatible; if that were the case, we could "prove" that Christianity and democracy are incompatible by looking at the governments of Christian nations in the Middle Ages. None of them were democracies, so clearly it was because of Christianity, right? Such an argument fails... just like you.


Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Now, I've basically come to the conclusion that you're a complete and utter imbecile. However, I still figured you could read:
Name 48. Al- Wadud (الودود) The Loving, the Kind One

At least you're honest enough to admit that "one nation under God" refers to Christianity - and is therefore unconstitutional as a national motto - but that's beside the point. Being a "good American" has nothing to do with spirituality; that's largely the point of the religious clauses of the First Amendment.


Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Personally, I see more of a threat from reactionary Christian Dominionists, who, like you, believe (falsely) that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and seek to turn away from democracy and towards theocracy. I'd recommend reading a book about it (there are several good ones; I'm a fan of Kingdom Coming, by Michelle Goldberg), but somehow I doubt that the recommendation would be followed.


Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.


Actually, it's less "truth" and more "bullshit."


If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

Yes, clearly spreading misleading and patently false propaganda is in the national interest. Far better to invent phony beliefs ("moon god?" What the hell is wrong with you? Did you learn about Islam from Crusades literature or something?) than to actual understand another group of people.

[1monster]

45. Thank you. I cleaned it up a little by removing the insults. I hope

you don't mind, but I've found that the honey pot is more successful than the vinegar jar.

[kiahzero]

50. Yeah... it wasn't really written to be a persuasive piece.

No problem with the edits.

[Hav]

46. wow, perfect

That was some excellent work!

[Snotcicles]

43. At this point religion is a coin toss, what do you do if Islam

turns out to be heads?

[ismnotwasm]

47. I received something similar

I made sure to hit reply all with my response-- which was that I find such things bigoted and ignorant, and not to send me anything like that ever again. I think I said something about it being hurtful as well as harmful. I sent a link to one of the many wonderful websites on Islam--an educational type. (I'm sorry, I forgot which one)and requested that the sender read up on a religion they obviously knew nothing about. I didn't try to personally refute the email step by step, my response was fairly short.

He sent me back an apology.

[diamidue]

48. Was it this one?:

I won't print the whole thing out, but here is a sampling. A sweet old lady sent it to me:

Subject: Muslim Terrorist
Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide?

Let's see now. . . . .
No Jesus
No Christmas.
No television.
No cheerleaders.
No baseball.
No football.
No hockey.
No golf.
No tailgate parties.
No Wal-Mart.
No Beer.
Rags for clothes and towels for hats.
Constant wailing from the guy next-door because he's sick and there are no doctors.
Constant wailing from the guy in the tower.
More than one wife.
You can't shave.
Your wives can't shave.
You can't shower to wash off the smell of donkey cooked over burning camel dung.
The women have to wear baggy dresses and veils at all times.
Your bride is picked by someone else.
She smells just like your donkey.
But your donkey has a better disposition.
Then they tell you that when you die it all gets better!
I mean, really, is there a mystery here, HELLO?

[ismnotwasm]

51. Ugh

No, it was more subtle. It was one comparing Christianity and Islam, with Islam in a negative light. If I got THAT one this particular guy would have been on my I'm not speaking to you EVER after I cuss you out list.

I'm pretty open and verbal about how I feel, so I don't get many emails like that. In fact, none for a long time.
God that's bad. I try real hard to stay away from people think that way, and I'll let them know why. I don't care how old they are.

[Gormy Cuss]

49. Tell her that back about 50 years ago, the subject would have been Jews

and without too much effort I could swing this whole thing against Christians if I had an interest in writing vile lies.

on edit: In fact, circa 1960 this whole spew could have been crafted as an argument that Roman Catholics couldn't be good Americans because their first allegiance was to the Pope.

[davsand]

55. Send them a link to Religious Tolerance dot org

Its a Toronto group that promotes understanding and tolerance of different religious views. They have this statement front and center on their Home Page:

"Religious tolerance means:
to extend religious freedom to people of all religious traditions, even though you may disagree with their beliefs and/or practices."

They have an interesting page devoted to the Ten Commandments which discusses how those same ideals are present in Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faiths. Possibly this would help educate your neighbor in a positive way. You can look it over at the following link:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm

Regards,


Laura

[OregonBlue]

56. Maybe check out the Book of Mormon.

[TheFriedPiper]

58. Same could be said for christians or any follower of any religion

Anyone that puts some made-up diety over our representative govt is not a good American.