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Do you even differentiate between a Conservative and a Neo-Con?

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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 02:57 PM
Original message
Do you even differentiate between a Conservative and a Neo-Con?
What the hell is a true conservative nowadays anyway?

I would like to think it is someone who agrees with limited government.

I would like to think that maybe it's someone who on one hand doesn't like social programs but at the same time hates the notion of corporate welfare, bullshit wars that senselessly cost lives and resources, ect.

That kind of conservative I would absolutely have disagreements with (for however shoddy they are run social programs do have a place in our society) but at least if the hypocritical factor is lifted then I think a dialouge could take place.

I was watching an old interview with Frank Zappa that occurred probably around the time I was about 4-5 years old.

He was arguing on Robert Novak's show with some religious freak about how music should not be censored it is just words we shouldn't use the government to censor speech.

Zappa called himself a Conservative on that show and stated that because of this position he does not like the idea of America becoming more and more facistic as it is becoming, he stated how he didn't like the mingling of religion and government that was happening at hyperspeed at that time during the Reagan years as it is now.



Tell you what whatever other differences aside, if that's what a conservative is where the hell is the army of them to take down these neo-cons that have risen up to take over their name?

If Zappa is what a Conservative is, that's the kind of person and group I wouldn't mind sharing a country with and working our differences out with.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Barry Goldwater was a conservative.
These neocons are fascists. Big difference.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. There are fiscal
conservatives, social conservatives, and other types. Neoconservatives today do not behave in conservative ways.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. There are social conservatives and economic conservatives
And the neo-cons exploit both groups shamelessly. I for one, would like to one day see a return of the old school GOP. I'd never be one but we need BOTH liberals and conservatives (true conservatives) to make this democracy great.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I'm a retired
psychiatric social worker. I don't think that there have been major changes in the years since I was employed in that field, if for no other reason than I am in touch with a couple old co-workers. I am in favor of using tax dollars for funding social programs. At the same time, I saw things that I considered a waste of tax-payers' investment, that did not benefit our clients of communities. In that sense, a person could call me a social liberal and/or a fiscal conservative.

I have a number of family and friends who are conservatives and/or republicans. Only one is a Bush supporter.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Wouldn' these neocon fascistas actually be
more correctly defined as neo liberal? Of course, Pat Buchannon would probably be more correctly named hot and cold running nuts.
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justabob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. yes, that is what the rest of the world calls them nt
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thefloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Conservatives are no more
Pat Buchanan would come to mind.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. REAL conservatives should be our natural allies against the fascists in
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 03:04 PM by blm
control of the GOP these days. Fascists AND the theocrats are hiding behind the word conservative the same way they hide behind the flag and religion.

Best bumpersticker for GOP -

Oldtime Republicans vs. EndTimes Republicans
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. A few of them are waking up to that and I hope more follow. n/t
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Yep. Nobody likes fascists.
Not even other fascists.

Once true conservatives realize who they are aligning with (very difficult to do when you rely on the corporate media for your information) they'll join the fight.
The racists and the theocrats we don't want or need.
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coldiggs Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree. While there maybe a de jure difference there is no defacto differ
ence.
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. NO! They are absolutely the same, their true ideology is being exposed now
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 03:18 PM by Zinfandel
that they have all the power.

This is and has been their ultimate goal, but in the past they had to be more "conservative" about exposing their true ideology...

There is absolutely no difference what so ever...proven without a doubt, through Reagan on though Jr. They have complete power and hardly a move against the fascist extremes from either House, (except a few little squeals, like now, that its getting close to election time).

Again, this has always been their goal, hiding behind conservatism and truly, conservatives are just your everyday neo-con fascist!!!!
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. The neocons have highjacked the meaning of the word 'conservative'.
The conservatives of my youth supported the Constitution, smaller government, and abhorred deficits.

Just as they highjacked the term 'liberal', which is now a pejorative.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. My father was a conservative. He really believed that
anyone could pull themselves up by the bootstraps if he worked hard enough. My father was deadly honest and would die before he would accept charity or welfare, until.......

After he retired, he became a victime of heart disease and Parkinson's disease. His medical expenses were quickly eating up his retirement money. Fortuitiously, Lyndon Johnson signed Medicare into law, which saved him and his pension.

It was what he hated, charity and welfare, but he was ever so grateful for it because you see he knew without these safety nets the burden of paying for his medical care would have fallen on my mother and myself. My mother was a housewife at the time and had been one most of her married life. She would have had to go to work.

I was barely eeking out a living as a secretary on wages that were sixty percent of a man's with less education than me and fewer skills. I don't know how I would have done it without an extra job.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. A Common traditional conservative attitude
I think such attitudes spring from how a person was raised, and that they were recipients of good luck (environment, health, opportunity, parenting...) combined with their own hard work which convinces them that 'if they can do it, anybody who works hard can'. It's a sort of lack of experience or having led a protected life so as to never have contact with people who lack the same advantages (listed as good luck above, and including everything from having received a strong work ethic example from parents to the benefit of having a few talents or reasonable degree of intelligence). With these and parents who've developed similar attitudes based on their own life experiences, they just failed to develop a more comprehensive sense of empathy; they can't fully appreciate what it would be like to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes". Yet, in another related sense, it's a kind of "pride". Pride in their own accomplishments and abilities, pride in their hard won independence and success. Pride that can make having to accept assistance (or "charity") all the more difficult.

In the example you've given, it sounds as though your Father really had to stretch and grow and overcome his attitudes and pride; certainly facing a devastating illness with or without overwhelming medical expenses can be an incredibly difficult experience. Such may necessarily involve having to accept "assistance" and include the loss of independence. As difficult as this is, it can be all the moreso if one is used to being able to deal with anything life hands you. Add to that a well developed sense of pride and it's even more difficult. However, if there are any good things be they small or large that can come from such troubles, it probably includes a greater capacity for empathy and the ability to better understand the difficulties some others have had to face, and presumably, a greater appreciation for the existence of such programs as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaide.

Even with such an experience, though, it may well be that a person never developes an empathetic understanding of how such factors as individual circumstances that include the absence of available education or employment opportunities from a young age... Then again, every person grows up and becomes responsible for their own lives; many people fall victim of whatever disadvantages they face as children, seeming to use whatever misfortune they faced as an excuse while failing to take advantage of new, real opportunities to improve themselves and their lot in life (which seems illogical and is easily seen as "laziness" by many).

The question arises as to whether or not such individuals, based on everything that's led up to who they are at a particular moment, regardless of how available new opportunites are, are they 'capable' of taking advantage/applying themselves. It may be that they are, in a sense, 'damaged' goods--unable now to even recognize or participate in activities to move forward which appear obvious and simple to the rest of us. There's something to be said for the notion "each of us always does the best we can", it's just that for some people, they face obstacles invisible to the rest of us--obstacles that may well include self-defeating attitudes or beliefs. Yet even though the development of such attitudes may have resulted from external environmental factors (and their interaction with the resulting physical and mental capacities created as a consequence of the combination of their available genetic qualities with their environment and past history) such as poor parental role models (or a host of other sources), such attitudes may be both counter-productive and unworthy. Laziness and a sense of entitlement are examples of such negative attitudes; and though it's not usually as simple as this, at some point, a person has to become responsible for overcoming their own personal demons.

An enlightened, supportive society would likely seek to make tools, programs and assistance available to all to help in improving themselves. Additionally, most advanced societies justifiable conclude that regardless of circumstance, people should not have to suffer starvation, exposure to the environment (nature/the elements), or do without basic medical care; especially children. Therefore such civilized societies provide a "social safety net" to protect it's citizens from the worst. We do provide some such protection in this country, but it's really pretty limited and many of the benefits either require that you have a long history of work (and consequently have paid taxes), or that you are downright destitute (you've already used up almost all available financial resources). Even then tens of thousands (or more) don't receive any assistance, and though we don't often see them (unless you live in a big city), there are homeless people everywhere. Too many go without and are still ignored.

I would suggest that societies that are composed of a Christian majority should be sure to provide comprehensive assistance for the poor and disadvantaged since that is consistent with their own teachings; likewise I find it strange that the very people who make the strongest claims to such a pious religion are invariably the ones who complain the loudest about such charity. Perhaps it's just that when such assistance is provided via their secular government, they aren't allowed to either proselytize or withhold assistance from non-believers. After all, why should "we" have to support people who don't believe as we believe? That's actually saying "why should we have to support people who hate us and our way of life, people who are sinners and are therefore Satan's minions who seek our very destruction", although they'd deny it. Plainly, they think when Yeshua taught giving to the poor, that meant 'believers' who happened to be poor (and even then they begrudge and bemoan the giving).

These religious people (probably imagining themselves as "philanthropists") often even conflate their donations when they attend their churches (the majority of which goes to the operation of said church) with the overall funds received by charities. Even more, these "Christians", somehow figure that their own 'charitable' giving, including whatever monies they actually part with which are given directly to 'real' charities, amounts to enough to provide adequate assistance to the poor. Perhaps they're sufficiently separate and distant from those in real need--they don't see how many people or how desperate their circumstances are, so it's easy to underestimate the need. Still, to add insult to injury, in their minds, the vast majority of funds given as assistance are being given to people who are "unworthy" and are defrauding the government. They focus on the one to three percent found to be cheating/abusing the system and act as though they represent 99% of recipients. That's an extremely flawed interpretation and couldn't be more wrong because these programs are very cost efficient and help millions of people.

Thanks to the Bush Administration, things have gotten worse on many fronts. Economically, there are many more people living in poverty now than when he <i>took</i> office, and the outlook, if we're honest, is that thanks to his massive increase in the Public Debt and Deficit Spending, the economy will likely collapse within a few years. When that happens, much of the middle class will join the ranks of the poor, and at a time when there will be no funds for the Social Safety Net. Other damage to the system was initiated by Bush when he tore down the Constitutionally intended separation of Church and State by authorizing federal funds for private, religious (spelled Christian) charitable organizations. Simultaneously, he defunded many secular federal programs--even those with stellar records of helping the poor and disadvantaged become successful contributing members of society by having lifted themselves out of poverty (through the development of skills and/or increased education).

It shouldn't surprise us that matters have turned for the worse with respect to social issues of poverty, when we've been facing serious setbacks and new obstacles in every aspect of social, economic, educational, environmental, diplomatic, national security, international relations etc... This suffering is the natural consequence of having literally the <i>worst</i> President in history, enabled by factional politics wherein his party has achieved a dominant majority in all branches of government. Make no mistake, nearly every problem we face was either created by or made significanly worse, by this President and the blame lies exclusively (again, exclusively) with him and his party (Bush and the Republican Party). Remember, Democrats aren't even allowed to participate in the people's Congress!

In any case, the world needs greater understanding, tolerance and empathy for others. We should all see it in the context that "we're all in this together" and so we should do everything we can to ensure that everyone has the best life possible. Working together, we can do much more than we will with many competing factions including a considerable number that oppose each other.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. I suspect the only "conservatives" left in the Fed. Gov't are
the ones like Susan Collins, Jim Jeffords (even though he switched to Ind.), and the few like them. It's a shame that the Pub base seems to HATE THEM too!
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ewoden Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. This kind of like differentiating drakes from hens when duck hunting
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 03:11 PM by ewoden
often ya gotta wait till they hit the ground before you can tell.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. I see a difference between neo-cons and cons
Cons want small govt... moral civility... lower taxes... yadda yadda...

neo cons are all about the PNAC military industrial complex.
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Opusnone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Zappa was WAY ahead of his time
The major difference between traditional conservatives and neocons is greed and a fanatical devotion to ideology.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. They support each other... and
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 03:23 PM by C_U_L8R
as far as I'm concerned they are all Neander-Cons.
They aid and comfort one another.... like Siamese Mr Creosotes.

The Old School Republicans
(the fiscal conservative - govt outta my face types)
are long extinct.
Now we have these busy-body big-spend make-war
culture-o-corruption, crony-infested, spy-on-everyone
fascistas touting their faux jesus juice to a mindless
freeptard army of shitheads.

Makes me nostalgic for Goldwater... weepy even. :-)

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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. Conservatives were decent people
My dad was one. He paid his bills on time, didn't cheat on his wife, went to work every day. He usually voted Republican. He believed in helping the poor and downtrodden but he believed a healthy man or woman without children only needed a hand up, not a lifetime stipend. He believed we needed a strong military in case we were attacked. He thought unions had their place but should steer clear of corruption. Was he a racist? Well, he didn't march with Dr. King. But he wept when he died. Was he homophobe? Never once did I ever hear him even mention the word "gay" or homosexual. It was not part of his life. He didn't know any (that he knew of) so he didn't talk about them. He went to church every Sunday, served on the Vestry, and tithed or came close to it. He bowled with the Men's church league on Fridays and played golf on Saturdays. He loved to garden. He took piano lessons once a week. He thought the world was a good place a getting better, getting more fair. He was proud to be American because we were the good guys. We rescued Europe twice and we never tortured. We celebrated our Bill of Rights. We lived by the Geneva accords. He was surely no feminist but he thought my mother the most beautiful and intelligent person in his life and he made certain all his daughters got degrees and advanced degrees. Sure, he always got the biggest piece of chicken, but he outweighed us all by 50 lbs. He saved up for his cars and paid cash. He never had a credit card. He took care of his parents, holding his mother's hand and wiping her brow as she died and taking in his father for five years. He was no saint. He had a martini every night and two after he retired. Sometimes he said Damn and sometimes, when sorely tested, said "God Damn it All to Hell."

Today's neocons are nothing like that. Most of them have jumped on the Christian bandwagon because of what they think it can GET them. They build McMansions and are in debt up to their eyeballs. They run through wives like old gloves. They are obsessed with WINNING. Winning the race wars, the cultural wars, the political wars. They have looked to the war on terror, however misnamed, as their opportunity to be the next "greatest generation" and they have blown it through vanity, ignorance and corruption. They build churches bigger than stadiums and then bring a few cans to church "for the poor." And they are afraid. They are deathly afraid of change. And they are afraid of death. And they should be, because if their beliefs are correct, they have a lot to answer for on Judgment Day.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well said..
your Dad sounds like a good man.

Thanks for sharing.

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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. your old man was definitely someone I could've respected
if only all those who call themselves conservatives today were like him.

Salud

:toast:
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nope, just like to them ANYBODY is FARRRRR Left
I use the word "wingnut" almost exclusively. They have made scorched-earth and all-or-nothing the standard since LIMBOsevic took over 15 yrs ago. They call all of us FAR LEFT, which, as we know here is not true. So EFF-'em.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Howard Cunnigham a conservatice Archie Bunker neo con.
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justabob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. Yes, there is a difference
Neo cons are radical, absolutely nothing conservative about them. They are like locusts ravaging a corn field. They eat up everything good and get fat, leaving nothing but husks for the rest of us. Law and order is not what they are about. Fiscal responsibility is not what they are about. Small government and isolation from foreign intanglements is not what they are about. Neocons are almost the exact opposite from what a real conservative is. I think we will be seeing more and more of the 'paleo-cons' stepping up and speaking out in the coming weeks and months.
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