If you support illegal immigration, then you support Bush...

[jerry611]

RANT WARNING!!!!!

I expect to get severely flamed because I think I am one of the very few DUers that is against illegal immigration. And I warn you that if you favor illegal immigration, you are in for an earful. And you are not going to like it.

But let me tell you the reality. If you favor illegal immigration, then you are supporter of Bush's free-trade agenda. You are a supporter of slave labor. And you are an enemy of the middle class.

I am not racist. I am not against LEGAL immigration. I couldn't care any less what your skin color is. I think it is great that other people are coming to America. It makes us all smarter. But these countless millions of illegals from Mexico, who obviously have no respect for our laws or nation, are not coming here to build computer chips in Silicon Valley. They are not coming here to fill our prescriptions in a pharmacy. They are coming here to feed off our welfare system. All these people coming from Mexico are broke! In my city, they just raided a single family home that had 30 (THIRTY!!!!!!) people living in it. All 30 people were illegal aliens.

I've seen people getting laid off after giving years of service to a company. Why? Becuase some illegal alien will work for half the pay, work twice as much, and have no benefits. I don't need studies to show that. I don't need statistics. I have seen that happen with my own eyes!!!
I have read estimates from several sources that to take care of all the illegal immigrats, it will cost each American taxpayer $100,000 over the course of their lives. Since most Americans can't afford $100,000. Where are we going to get the money from to take care of these people? The national debt?
Allowing these Mexicans in here illegally is a corporate agenda to drive down the average wage, bust the unions, and cut benefits. If we allow illegal immigration to continue and allow the Republicans to push through these free trade agreements, the corporations are going to be saving BILLIONS of dollars at the expense of the average worker. And at the same time, it will sink this nation.

And there is more...

The border patrol reports 100's of incursions by the Mexican military, gangs, and drug cartels every single year. What does our stupid government do about it? NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Go to a city like Nuevo Laredo. There is drug violence in the streets constantly. And police can't control it anymore.

So yes. If you support this stupid policy of illegal immigration, you are a Bush supporter in my book. Because only a Bushie could support a policy this fucking stupid!

END RANT

My plan? We need to do several things...
I say we clamp down the border. If it needs a fence...so be it. If it needs military to shut down the cartels and human trafficking...so be it. If we need to pull troops out of Iraq to do the job...even better. That's the first step. Next, start going after the corporations. Any corporation that knowingly hires an illegal alien will face SEVERE fines and such company forfeits any tax breaks. We need to make it so that a company that fires an American worker to hire illegals at cheaper labor costs will pay dearly for that move. Next, you cannot become a US citizen unless you first go back to Mexico or wherever you came from and wait at the end of the line.

If you take away their jobs and their social services...believe me...they will go back to Mexico. We cannot take care of Mexico's problems. That's not our responsibility. We have homeless people in the streets that I drive by coming home from work every single day. And we can't even help those people. Yet you want to allow 100 million poor from Mexico in here?

Just like Iraq...we cannot go around the world saving everyone from the hells of a dictatorship and poverty. People need to learn to start standing up and saving themselves. Only Mexicans can save their country. We can't. And instead of electing a man that would help Mexico, those people down there elect a president that will kiss Bush's ass and give a big hug to corporate America. So in my opinion, they can all burn in the poverty hell they voted for.

[cynatnite]

1. Yeah, damn those people coming to the US...

for wanting a better life for themselves and their families. :sarcasm:

[joemurphy]

4. Right. And a lot of them don't even speak English! (Our

National Language!)

[Deja Q]

7. Shouldn't they be working in their own country to better their own country

and their countrymen?

Instead of coming to ours via illegal means (or even legal ones with what I'm going to say next), then waving the flag of the country they seemed to have no qualms leaving in shameless disgust...

It works both ways; including Americans who emigrate to other countries.

If I emigrated to China or India to improve my life, legally or otherwise, then went around waving the American flag and denouncing how I was being treated in the country I moved to (especially if I came in illegally!!), how long before I'd get stoned to death or ran over by a tank?! 20 seconds?

[AZCat]

10. You mean like the Irish, or the Italians, or any of the other...

communities that still identify with their land of origin? I don't understand why it is a bad thing to emigrate and continue to maintain cultural ties with one's native land.

[Deja Q]

20. As long as you put the country you move to at the TOP of your list,

I don't care what nationality anybody who comes to America is.

After all, this is America.

It's no different if I went to France and then demanded that my American interests and flag get put above France's. Especially if I came in illegally. The French wouldn't be very happy for some impudent little snot coming in, so why should we be the other way around? (in other words, reverse the situation and see the other point of view... other countries do not allow this sort of silliness America has, and they came into existence in ways not always dissimilar to America.)

Or should we have no countries and let everybody go where they please? I'm a bit hard pressed to condone globalization, especially when there are countries ran by genuinely nasty people out there. Emigrate to China, preferably illegally. Then try waving that American flag around in China and see what happens. Trust me, you're not going to like it.

[cynatnite]

27. What's this thing about China?

And who says the US isn't at the top of their list? Why does it have to be? Hell, the US isn't at the top of my list...hasn't been for quite a while now. Do I have to leave the US and go to my father's country if the US isn't where you say it ought to be?

It's a free country...freedom of expression, freedom of speech and all that. Remember?

[AZCat]

29. Okay, just as long as you're not trying to get us all in groupthink.

But I don't understand the whole point to making immigration illegal. Why wouldn't we want more workers? I know that a lot of sweaty rhetoric has been slung about the newbies taking 'murkan jobs, but to me that seems fallacious - that theory assumes there are a finite number of jobs. If immigrants were replacing natives in jobs without any creation of new jobs, this country would have ground to a halt a long time ago. I believe that immigration increases demand for services and creates many new small business owners. Traditionally (IIRC) first and second generation immigrants are more likely to start small businesses and place a higher value on education than natives. What is so unacceptable about this?

[joemurphy]

13. I feel the same way about those damned Irish. Always waving

their flags and drinking green beer. They all oughta go back to Ireland.

And all those Italians (Mafia, mostly). They oughta go back to Sicily and help build up the Sicilian economy.

I distrust anyone that flaps around any flag but Old Glory. It shows they're Anti-American!

And those Brits. You ought to see them at soccer games. I went to see the US play England in Chicago and the Limeys were waving their flags around everywhere. They oughta go back to Britain if they like their teams so much.

Hey, Don't Tread on Me!

[Lost-in-FL]

Italians waving the flag after their win in the World Cup

WHAT A SHAME!!! An Outrage!! You saw them Ilegal Italians in the streets???

[joemurphy]

23. Right, it sickened me. I wanted to throw up! n/t

[Deja Q]

26. Perception is 9/10ths of the law.

I see your point of view.

Now see the point of view from other countries - ask around. Find out their customs, immigration policies, and ways.

[cynatnite]

15. What does it matter what flag they fly?

People, legal or not, should be able to fly the flag of their choice. I consider it freedom of expression just like when some fly a Palestinian flag, Iraqi, Nazi or whatever. The flag a person flies should be the least of anyone's concern.

Fortunately for us and them, this isn't China. Illegal immigration is a red herring the repukes pulled out of their ass to use as a wedge issue. It's been what it is for many years now and only recently became this so-called 'hot issue'.

There are more important things to worry about such as our soldiers dying in an immoral war and the constitution getting pissed on.

[melnjones]

28. Amen re: the flag thing. nt.

[joemurphy]

Let me guess. Lou Dobbs pays a visit to DU!

[laura888]

2. I'm with you on this. n/t

[Deja Q]

12. Ditto. I've already expounded on my reasons in this thread,

which are fair and just.

Never mind the other reason, which is exploitation...

[trumad]

3. My daddy once told me....

that if you say you're not a racist...then you're a God damn racist.

[laura888]

5. Disagree completely. Two separate issues.

I wouldn't care if illegals were Norwegian, Mexican or from Mars.

This is about employment.

[Lost-in-FL]

6. Why you hate Mexicans?

[Deja Q]

8. Only Mexicans? You mean, nobody else comes to the USA illegally??!

:wow:

[jerry611]

11. Typical, can't debate the facts so you pull the race card

My post is loaded with potential problems that illegal immigration causes America. Instead of debating those problems...you call me a racist.

I'm claiming victory in this argument.

[Lost-in-FL]

14. Debate??

This is not debate... this is bigotry. Why Illegals always have to be MEXICAN? Why Mexican only?

[laura888]

21. Ummm. No

The fact of the matter is that there are:

- limited resources
- limited jobs
- limited space


This is the case in EVERY country/society on the planet.

Would Mexico be able to absorb 500,000+ people from the north?

Your answer will speak volumes.

[Lost-in-FL]

30. Just like the Native Americans

couldn't absorb Europeans... but wait they were "swolled".

[laura888]

35. But you didn't answer the question...

...about whether Mexico could absorb thousands of people coming across their border from the north.

[Lost-in-FL]

See post #32

[laura888]

59. Yawn. Still waiting. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

63. I can't

but I know very well you found a good article at the Free Republic if not you wouldn't have come up with such bigoted post. Please provide a link so I can be "Terrorized" with the influx of MEXICANS. AHHHH!!! LOOK OUT!!!!

[AZCat]

33. No.

There are not limited jobs. In fact, immigration creates jobs by increasing demand for services.

[laura888]

39. It creates more jobs that pay minimum wage or lower.

An increase in workers will lower the wages.

There is no disputing this fact.

[AZCat]

43. I am disputing it.

People still need health care, they still need buildings built, etc. If people move here there will be increased demand for those services, and the last time I checked there were jobs in those areas that paid greater than minimum wages.

[laura888]

48. Skilled labor...

...such as in the building trades, should pay much, much more than minimum wage and offer disability pay, workers comp, etc.

Many employers find that illegals do not demand these wages or benefits and will hire them instead.

This hurts all workers. Period.

[AZCat]

72. crap...

I had a nice post all written out and IE fragged on me. I'll never get it the same. :(

Tucson is close enough to the border that we get a lot of chatter on this. One of the local papers (the Arizona Daily Star) recently ran a four-part series on illegal labor in Tucson. It is well worth reading, and if you are interested the series is here.

I understand (and agree with) your point that the jobs taken by undocumented workers do not include benefits that should be part of every job, but I still argue that high-paying skilled jobs are created by immigration. Doctors, lawyers, engineers - these people are part of the economic net that surrounds all workers (and nonworkers too), even the undocumented.

[laura888]

90. Workers working outside of the safety net...

...of hard-earned U.S. laws, undermine these laws.

Please don't forget that people worked VERY hard to earn:

- the 8-hour work day
- a basic minimum wage
- social security

Yes, other higher-wage folks are benefitting, but what is the cost to society as a whole? These laws are not set in stone, in fact some are less than a century-old.

I, like many, feel that they are fragile and precious.

[PsN2Wind]

44. So we'll all

take in each others laundry.

[AZCat]

45. ?

I don't get your post (the problem may be on the receiving end - it's late). Would you mind clarifying for the hard of thinking?

[jerry611]

22. Because no other nation is flooding us with numbers like Mexico is

The numbers of people coming here illegally from other countries pales in comparison to people flooding across our border.

Did 2 million Germans flood across our border ILLEGALLY last year? Did 2 million Japanese? How about Italians or Brits?

What other nation even comes CLOSE to the amount of illegals flooding our border?

NAME A NATION! There is none!

[Lost-in-FL]

32. THE MEXICANS ARE COMING!!! LOOK OUT!!!

ARGGGG!!!!!!!!!!! CALL THE MINUTEMAN!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[AZCat]

17. It's a little early, isn't it?

And are we so immature that we need to have winners and losers in a discussion? If we manage to discuss it in a civilized manner, aren't we all winners?

[Mountainman]

74. May I play the race card too? Telling people to not play the race card

or that they are playing the race card is a defense of a racist. It is saying that they are not permitted to call you on your racism and that lets you off the hook. Well not with me. None of your premises are valid. Xenophobia and racism are the only explanation for being anti immigrant. You don't like the cultural changes that are taking place and change scares the hell out of you. You have a right to be mad I guess but you are raging against the wind and you would do yourself a world of good and learn to relax and accept that of which you have no power over. Illegal immigrants will not go away. Trust me. Meet an illegal immigrant family and get to know them and make friends. It is a whole lot more life affirming than what you are doing. Better for your mental health too.

[desi]

102. A shallow ''victory'' it is...

"But these countless millions of illegals from Mexico, who obviously have no respect for our laws or nation, are not coming here to build computer chips in Silicon Valley. They are not coming here to fill our prescriptions in a pharmacy. They are coming here to feed off our welfare system. All these people coming from Mexico are broke! In my city, they just raided a single family home that had 30 (THIRTY!!!!!!) people living in it. All 30 people were illegal aliens."

The poster asked why you hated MEXICANS and it is quite clear that you were "ranting" about Mexicans....your words, my emphasis...

[cboy4]

9. Oh Jesus...here we go again

:popcorn:

[cynatnite]

19. I'm out...pass some over here

:hi:

[cboy4]

31. Lemme grab a bigger tub. Hold on......

Here ya go! :hi:

[cynatnite]

36. Perfect! Thanks n/t

[cboy4]

46. No problem..BTW, nice avatar! Before I was transferred to Calif., I worked

in E. TN (Tri Cities) when Gore was senator!

Jim Sasser (D) was also senator!

Ned McWherter (D) was Governor!!

It was great.

Tennessee.....the way it should be....All dems! :bounce:

[cynatnite]

58. I live in Kingsport...

It's fairly red here, but I do like the area. Phil Bredeson is a decent governor. We'll be losing Frist pretty soon :bounce: Hopefully, Ford will win his seat.

[cboy4]

80. What a small world . . . I lived in Kingsport also.....it's conservative,

but it's no Carter County. I don't know if I could have handled living there! Talk about RED!!

Yes, hopefully Ford wins!

[Lost-in-FL]

Here's the six pack!!

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[cboy4]

52. Thanks dude! Hopefully it's Corona!

;)

[Lost-in-FL]

57. You like Tecate?? Dos Equis??

:rofl:

[cboy4]

71. LOL!....you know it. Now pardon me while I enjoy an undocumented

They're the best ;)

[hogwyld]

87. Hope it'snot illegal Mexican beer!

Do you have the documents to verify your beer?

[Lost-in-FL]

88. Oops... the Migra just took my beer

Sorry guys... no Mexican beer. You'll be drinking Bud Light.

[cynatnite]

61. Fuzzy navel for me please

:toast:

Beer's never been a favorite of mine.

[Lost-in-FL]

68. The only thing they have here

Popcorn and beer. We should ask for wine since I like wine better than beer.

[cynatnite]

70. Would it be anti-American if I preferred French wine over Californian?

:bounce:

[Lost-in-FL]

75. Oh, oh...

***hiding bottle of Pouilly Fuisse***

[PsN2Wind]

16. Importing labor has much the same effect as exporting jobs

only with even greater costs. We all share the cost of educating, medicating and incarcerating the illegals and their dependents.

[porphyrian]

18. I support justice.

Illegal immigration is only a problem because people here HIRE THEM. Punish the people who do with steep fines and jail time, and the problem will go away tomorrow. However, this truth is seldom even mentioned in the conversation, which is invariably framed as either we severely punish the victims of poverty for breaking a minor law or the consequences of this administration's actions, which are framed as a result of illegal immigration, will continue and worsen. I reject this bullshit premise. I'm sorry you don't yet.

[walldude]

24. Yeah and if you voted for Lamont you are an Al-Quada supporter

While I'm not a fan of "illegal immigration" I'm also not a fan of Chicken Little. Illegals are not going to "sink this nation". I also don't believe that Mexicans are coming here to "feed off our welfare system". You are using the Republican "welfare queen" talking point to back up your statement. To be honest your thread is really nothing but flame bait, you rant and rave and give nothing to back up your "facts". I agree that something needs to be done about illegal immigration but it's pointless to even try to have a sensible debate with someone so.. shall we say, narrow minded.

[KamaAina]

25. You can't have it both ways

...But these countless millions of illegals from Mexico, who obviously have no respect for our laws or nation, are not coming here to build computer chips in Silicon Valley. They are not coming here to fill our prescriptions in a pharmacy. They are coming here to feed off our welfare system. All these people coming from Mexico are broke! In my city, they just raided a single family home that had 30 (THIRTY!!!!!!) people living in it. All 30 people were illegal aliens.

I've seen people getting laid off after giving years of service to a company. Why? Becuase some illegal alien will work for half the pay, work twice as much, and have no benefits. I don't need studies to show that. I don't need statistics. I have seen that happen with my own eyes!!!...

Well, which is it? Are they "feeding off our welfare system", or working insane hours for crap wages (when their paychecks don't bounce) with no benefits?

Kind of reminds me of when the righties thought Hillary was a lesbian AND was carrying on a torrid affair with Vince Foster... :eyes:

[jerry611]

34. They work for peanuts, and the welfare fills the void

The money they make mostly gets sent back to Mexico because their family is poor there.

And have you heard the latest scam? Pregnant women from Mexico come across the border, go to our hospital and have their baby. Then they take off back to Mexico. Who pays the bill? The American taxpayer. Now explain to me how that is fair????

[AZCat]

38. Just like it does for ordinary Americans?

Welfare doesn't do jack - just read the several threads here on the anniversary of the "reform" of welfare.

How is it fair that a child is born into the world in a modern hospital instead of a shack with a dirt floor and no running water? I'd say that's pretty fair.

[cynatnite]

40. And we won't include the legal citizens without health care...

who goes to the hospital when they're sick and can't pay the bill.

Of course it's not fair. Health care should be free and equal to ALL.

[Lost-in-FL]

41. ENRON stole millions from US citizens

And no one seemed to be outraged. Gas prices increase and gas companies pockets get full of cash. I don't see people complaining. Who pays the bill???

[walldude]

47. You're right it's not fair. On the other hand Americans are paying

out of pocket for the 8 BILLION DOLLARS missing from the Iraqi reconstruction fund. We are paying corporate welfare on a Federal and State level, we are being ripped off by health care and pharmacutical companies, oil and gas companies, and countless others. Illegal Immigration is not very high on my list of rip-offs. While something needs to be done about it in the future at this moment I think we have alot more serious problems.

[Cleita]

49. Pregnant women who came here from Mexico to have a baby

in our hospitals, were middle class and well off. Otherwise they couldn't afford it. The idea of having an American baby was a fail safe for them, just in case. Also, this got ended years ago. Please don't put up this crap.

And if you think they are sending lots of money back to Mexico, how much extra money can you send back anywhere on $5 and hour? Do the math.

[jerry611]

55. $5/hour in the US is like $50 an hour in Mexico

The dollar is about 10 times the value of a peso.

[Cleita]

66. True but those guys have to pay the same we do to survive

so very little is bleeding to Mexico. I think the tourist dollars that Americans take to Mexico is much larger. I would like to see a study on it. So if a family in Mexico gains something from that fifty cents you are pissed about it?

[Lost-in-FL]

79. Not for long...

Canada is almost matching the US dollar. Something I found unthinkable. Look at the bright side, Mexicans will leave the US to move to Canada.

[Mountainman]

106. Taxes don't pay hospital bills. These people would not be eligible

for Medicare or Medical or Medi Medi. You can't just come here and have a baby and have a government funded health care provider pay for it. You have to qualify for that aide and that takes more time and an address than these people you claim come here have. If a hospital gives service and is not paid for it, it has to write it off and hope that the money they get from insurance companies for treating other patients covers it.

That coming here to have a baby for free is just another bull shit myth that you have bought into.

Go find an indigent pregnant woman and take her to a hospital and see if she can have the baby there and just walk away with no consequences, no paper work, no nothing, just pass the bill onto the tax payers. No way Jose!

[Lost-in-FL]

111. Hospitals are only required to provide with CRITICAL care

(immediate threat to life) for the uninsured (citizen or not) and having babies is not critical care or at least I think so.

[cynatnite]

117. You're wrong

Labor and delivery is critical and life threatening for both mom and baby. Did you not know that? Check out infant mortality rates, c-section rates, diabetes, placenta previa, and the hundreds of other things that can and do go wrong during pregnancy, labor and delivery.

Health care should be free and equal to ALL.

[Cleita]

122. I have to agree with your last statement, but

I don't think much health care today is concerned about your former statements if you don't have some kind of coverage.

The first thing I am ever asked for are my insurance cards and then I have to sign a statement that just in case they won't pay them, I will. I don't get treated otherwise.

[cynatnite]

130. This is why health care should be free to all...

It sickens me that this country can't guarantee medical care to all those who need it. It's the moral thing to do.

[Lost-in-FL]

123. Babies

can be delivered in homes, has happened for centuries but OF COURSE, I understand that there can be serious complications wish could be treated as critical. Maybe that is why I didn't think it was critical such as Appendicitis attack, trauma, etc.

[cynatnite]

126. Moms who have babies at home have to undergo...

a strict physical by a doctor. They make an attempt to foresee any possible complications that may arise. It's not as common as many would believe.

If you look over the course of history you'll find more women died having their babies than survived. It was a life threatening event for both mom and baby. It still is.

[Cleita]

37. Excuse me you are presenting a false argument.

All DUers are against illegal immigration. I am sick of this accusation. The next thing you will say is that we are being unpatriotic by not supporting the xenophobic solutions to this. How very Goering of you.

Most of us want to solve the problem with a more practical approach by helping them to not be illegal. We don't think throwing poor people into concentration camps, building nonsense walls and dividing families is a good solution.

[jerry611]

50. Helping them not be illegal?

What does that mean? That we hand out drivers licenses, green cards, and voter ID cards?

Being illegal is not the problem. The problem is there are too many people all coming here at one time. We dont have the cash to take care of them. We don't have the schools or teachers to educate them. And we don't have enough jobs to fill that would bring them out of poverty.

[laura888]

54. I agree completely. In the early 1900s, NY was full of slums...

...of immigrants that could not be absorbed into the system because of sheer numbers, lack of skill, language barrier etc.

We're not anti-immigration.

We're saying it needs to be carefully controlled for the benefit of all.

[Cleita]

60. Yeah, try it, We might find out it works in our favor.

And really, just how much did that family in the field picking your food cost you out of your pocket recently? Now I know your taxes paid, my taxes paid and their taxes paid are paying to keep an idiot in palatial comfort whether in the White House or AF1. So really do blame the true leeches on our society not some guy who wants to work.

[cynatnite]

65. So is your solution to deport them all?

Be honest. Is that your suggestion? What happens to the ones already here? Do we make them legal or send them back?

[jerry611]

84. Obviously you didn't read my post

I said if they want to become citizens that they go back to Mexico and wait in line like everyone else does.

It's not fair that they get to stay, and break the law, while millions wait outside the border who want to follow the law.

I never said deport anyone! That costs too much money. My plan was to severely punish corporations that hire illegals. And when the jobs and welfare are cut off, the illegals will go back home on their own. If they really want to become American citizen, when they return home, they will file for citizenship.

[cynatnite]

98. Okay...ignoring the disruption and the impact on the economy...

It's not realistic at all to expect them to voluntarily go back. Cutting off jobs and welfare certainly won't do it either mainly because many work for smaller businesses. To expect them to go home where the poverty is so abject that many are starving is...well, indicates a lack of understanding why they came here in the first place.

If I lived in Mexico or Central America and I lived in poverty where my kids didn't have enough to eat, no running water and no help from the government, I would break the law in a heartbeat if it meant saving my children. I would make the dangerous journey, sneak over the border and take the first job I could find.

BTW, my father was an illegal immigrant. I wouldn't be here if he and his mother hadn't snuck into this country. When I tell people that, they think nothing of it. That's because I'm white. It's okay for them, but not okay for those coming from the south. It's been my experience that those who scream the loudest about the illegal immigrants coming into the country focus mostly on those whose skin pigmentation is a little darker.

[Lost-in-FL]

89. Can we get to keep the rich??

That will be nice.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. First of all,

you are not the only DUer against undocumented immigrants. (I refuse to call them illegals because they are human beings.) There are many DUers who agree with you and want our borders closed to Hispanic and Latino immigrants. Unless you were not here during the spring, you certainly could not have missed the flame wars on this issue.

NAFTA has destroyed the economy of many Central American countries. bush is not responsible for NAFTA, it is Clinton's work. So supporting immigration does not automatically make anyone a bush supporter.

It is nearly impossible to immigrate legally from Central America. Our immigration laws favor immigrants from many other areas of the world. European immigrants are welcome here. East coast cities are inundated with undocumented Irish immigrants. Yet we hear no complaints about them. So it is not a stretch to call those who complain about undocumented immigrants from Central America bigots, especially if they do not express concern about undocumented immigrants from other countries.

I know hundreds of undocumented workers from Central America and I can assure you they are not criminals. They also do not come here to feed off our welfare system. They are not eligible for welfare since they are not US citizens. Please educate yourself before making these crazy allegations.

They come here because they cannot make a decent living in their native countries. They are desperate. They have families to feed, just like we do. And like most human beings, they are willing to do whatever it takes to take care of their families. Since they can earn a better living in the US they come here. Since it takes years and thousands of dollars to immigrate legally, they come illegally.

COMPANIES lay off American workers and hire undocumented workers because they can. These businesses not only hire laborers who come here looking for work, they also send buses across the border to bring them and their families here. These businesses break the law and get away with it. If caught, they are fined. But many appeal the fine and don't pay it. So it is completely ignorant to blame the undocumented workers for the jobs lost by American workers. In bushworld, employers get away with breaking the law.

Only an uninformed person blames desperate poor people for the problems caused by corporations and US trade policies.

[walldude]

51. Oh great, there you go making sense....

Could you please not do that in a flame based thread...

[cynatnite]

53. Your post reminded me of Katrina...

Many people stole in order to survive. People will break the law when it comes to feeding and caring for their families...legal or not.

Well said!

[Telly Savalas]

69. I beg to differ on your last sentence.

There are a lot of very well informed people who willfully try to scapegoat poor people for problems beyond their control.

But I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of your post.

[HughBeaumont]

107. Agreed, but let's amend something . . .

NAFTA was hovering around during Poppy's Admin (coinciding with conservative Free Trade politicians of Canada as well), authored and passed into play mostly by Repubs, pushed by Mr Inconvenient Truth and signed by Free Trader Bill years after it was penned. It's a transcending issue that Clinton cannot solely be blamed for.

[Mountainman]

56. That is complete torro ca-ca. Here is my post from the other thread.

In my opinion the law should not be enforced, but changed. There is a
definite need for these people to be here. A need on both sides. They need some way of improving their quality of life. We need their labor in the fields and else where. If this were not true, they would not be here. I think that is a given. If you were to strictly enforce the law, the needs of both sides would not be met and that is why the law is not rigorously enforced.

My main point I want to make is that I firmly believe that the only reason people are for enforcing the law is because they are xenophobes. The law gives them a convenient way to hang onto their racism yet present a picture of holding the moral high ground. My feelings are that none of the negatives that are used as reasons for being against this immigrant population are valid. They pay taxes, they do work that most citizens do not want to do, they assimilate into the culture, they are not getting free social aide. They are of a different culture and their culture is rapidly changing ours. But that is the way of the future. It is called multiculturalism. It will happen no matter what you do or what you want. You can make up your mind to go with the flow or constantly beat your head against the wall and write posts like these.

I further believe that the immigrants should be offered a fast track to citizenship after they work here for a number of years. Their children born here are American citizens and you cannot deport citizens and I do not want to break up families. The cost of rounding up immigrants is in the billions and more than likely cannot be done. The second generation immigrants move into the middle class and become very productive law abiding english speaking citizens, just what we all should be.


I listened to many of the kids that walked out of school over the Sensenbruner (sp?) bill and I was very impressed with what they had to say and how they felt. They wanted a chance at a decent life. A chance they could not get in Mexico. They want a chance to be decent wage earning law abiding citizens. I could not fault them for that. My heart went out to them.

So many of our new union workers are these immigrants. They fight harder than we do for better working conditions. We benefit from their efforts. Cities all across the country are voting for living wages for hotel and service workers. These folks if they were citizens would fight and vote right along side of us for social justice. They are on our side in just about every issue we fight for.

For these reasons the idea of enforcing the law is just so impractical. So many people understand that and that is why it is not enforced. The others I feel just will not face the reality of the situation.

[laura888]

64. "they do work that most citizens do not want to do" - no evidence of this

Citizens will line up to do any job if the pay is fair.

[Cleita]

76. "If the pay is fair".

During the depression men were willing to work for a dollar a day because they were hungry. What is the difference with the poor Mexican willing to do the same thing for the same reason?

[AZCat]

78. That's why the Hoover Dam came in under budget.

They never would have been able to build it as cheaply as they did if there hadn't been a swarming mob of prospective workers at the base willing, as you said, to work for a dollar a day.

[Mountainman]

112. The Hover Dam was build by the Civilian Conservation Corp. It was funded

by the government. People were paid a decent wage, given housing at the work sight. It was part of the National Recovery Act.

[laura888]

83. There is no depression in the United States at this time.

If there is a depression in another country, whereby people are starving, we should send them money.

This would be a conscious choice.

Illegals coming to the U.S. under desperate circumstances are forcing citizens to unconsciously support them in some way - for example, by lowering wages.

[Mountainman]

86. Please list the jobs were wages have been lowered. Give the previous

wage and the current wage. Tell me why there isn't mass unemployment in this country because people can't find a decent paying job. Wages are stagnant because of the conservative politics we have been working under ever since Reagan administration. Because of union busting, because of out sourcing and because of legal immigration were IT people are invited to come here. Wages are down because of a multitude of reasons and to dump it all in the laps of illegal immigrants is just bull shit.

[Cleita]

100. It's easy to blame the most vulnerable. They can't fight back. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

104. It is easier if the "illegal" worker doesn't speak English

cause they can't compliant.

[Cleita]

96. That has to have a hollow ring even to you.

If you think there is no depression in certain sectors of this country, what do you call the homeless? Do remember that it could percolate up to you.

[Mountainman]

81. I've got plenty of evidence. I use to be the controller of Esparza

Enterprizes. One of the larger labor contractors in the San Joaquin Valley. They are located in Bakersfield, CA. Every day they employ around 3,000 workers. The jobs are open to all who apply. Never in the whole time that I worked there did a non immigrant come to apply to work in the fields. NEVER!

[laura888]

85. Well, what is the hourly wage being offered? n/t

[Mountainman]

91. That isn't the issue. I said they do work that we don't want to do and

that is the truth. In this area, farm labor has always been low paying. We had the dust bowl days in the 1930's. Then the immigrants came from Oklahoma and the middle west where they could no longer share crop. Things haven't changed other than the workers come from the south rather from the east. People here did not work in the fields then and they don't now. Some did as children or to pay for school but that was the exception.

What you are saying is that if the wages were what you need to live on you would go to work in the fields and maybe you would. But the wages have never been a living wage and never will be. That argument doesn't hold water.

[laura888]

93. But if they DID pay a living wage...

...citizens would work these jobs. No?

It seems like raising all wages paid within the U.S. to be living wages is a good goal.

But maybe that's just me.

[Mountainman]

95. Guess what, the only people fighting for living wages in this country

are service workers and many of them are illegal immigrants. The are fighting for collective bargaining too. If we would get off our asses and stop crying that things are not what we want them to be and take a lesson from the illegal immigrants maybe we would be out in the streets too! Maybe we would work as hard to find a better quality of life for ourselves as they do. Maybe your friends are not the enemies you think they are.

[jerry611]

92. Labor isn't the only problem

Where are we going to get the money to educate their children? Class sizes are already above 40 students a class in many areas of the country. There is a teacher shortage, schools are running out of money, and test scores continue to decline.

Adding more kids to the population isn't going to help.

[Lost-in-FL]

99. Let's get out of Iraq

And we will get the funds to improve education. If inmigration won't take care of the problemby not enforcing the law, the least that can be done is to have kids of inmigrants educated so they become responsible legal citizens. I think that is what most "illegals" want, that their kids do not go through the burden and live in poverty like they their parents lived.

[Nozebro]

62. Wouldn't it be better to talk about the problems caused by OVERpopulation?

I'm with you on your points about illegal immigration. Of course, right-wingers like the benefits of having millions of new customers/cheap laborers in our midst, but politically speaking, since most people are incapable of getting beyond the phony issue of racism and immigration, I think we'd be better off to talk about the issue within the larger context of OVERpopulation and the huge number of major problems that we are experiencing and that will only worsen (for those of us that aren't rich) if we don't do something about those problems NOW. Now, before it gets any worse.

[laura888]

67. Well said. This is the crux of the matter. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

82. I thought it was

the DANGER of MEXICANS crossing the border... the influx of welfare driven/hard working illegal Mexicans

[Cleita]

73. I suppose it could be an issue. It's just no one is really

worried about overpopulation except among certain ethnic groups.

[FILAM23]

77. Remeber

this is the only country that caters to its illegal immigrants.
No social services should be allowed for illegals.
No school, no workmans comp, no health care beyond life saving emergency care,
no forms printed in any language except English, as having a knowledge of
English is a requirement for becoming a citizen, if caught using a phoney
Social Security number they should be charged with identity theft if the
number used actually belongs to some one, if not then charge them with
forgery of govt documents.

[Mountainman]

116. You know that will never happen. Why do you keep hanging onto

something that is a complete unreality? I just don't understand why someone like you would beat your head against a wall like that. Just because it feels so good when you stop?

[wiggs]

94. Help: is it true that undocumented immigrants can get welfare?

I keep hearing people say this and I don't know if it is accurate.

[Lost-in-FL]

101. No they don't

Cuban only "exiles" can apply for welfare. Please, someone correct me if i am wrong.

[cynatnite]

103. I've read that some who give birth here will apply for welfare...

but that was a few years ago. For the most part I don't believe there are that many on welfare.

[Cleita]

108. Of course they can't.

If you ever tried to get welfare, you have to know that the first thing the social workers go after is if you qualify. Then they will try to find other sources. I helped an old friend of mine who was dying from cancer, and who didn't want welfare, jump through the hoops. The welfare people will search for any other means of income that they can get before they give them welfare. It turns out that he had benefits coming to him from the Veterans of the Foreign Wars.

Another friend, an illegal immigrant no one worried about because she was blond, blue eyed and spoke English, was able to get welfare for her two American born children. She didn't get a dime as an undocumented alien. The welfare though made sure that they pursued the father of the children until they made him pay up.

So you can be sure the welfare people don't hand those checks to anyone.

[Jed Dilligan]

97. Your plan stinks.

The military cannot control the border. A fence cannot control the border. If you take away social services, there will just be a lot more people here with no social services.

[jerry611]

105. Military protects the border from the drug lords and the gangs

These people come across the mexican border INTO THE UNITED STATES with automatic weapons. And guess what our Homeland Security Department tells the border patrol to do? RUN AND HIDE!

We need the military to shut down these cartels and human traffickers. The cops can't do it. The FBI can't do it. The law enforcement in these border towns have been BEGGING for help for years. Everyone ignores them...

It is time we start using the military for its true purpose...protecting America.

[cynatnite]

113. The military aren't cops...

and shouldn't be used as such. These are law enforcement issues and this is another example of how the military is being misused in another never-ending mission.

How do you think they come into the US? Without help? Check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2046981

[jerry611]

115. Cops can't combat drug cartels in Mexico

Do you have any idea how far these cartels will go?

[cynatnite]

121. And you think the military should get bogged down in a drug war?

No way. We're already in one quagmire and putting the military in another one is no benefit to anyone.

[jerry611]

125. OK then...we will just let it continue...

All those border towns will just have to learn to live with all the drug and gang violence because the federal government to damn chicken to protect our own borders.

Stick a fork in this country...we are done!

[Lost-in-FL]

118. And would create more Diplomatic Conflicts

The military in the border? Not a good idea.

[jerry611]

119. And who's job is it to protect the border?

It can't be a state job because the border stretches across several states. It's a federal job.

[Throd]

109. I support neither.

[OhioChick]

110. I agree with you. n/t

[EFerrari]

114. If you support mindless xenophobia, then you support Junior.

If you don't know how American corporations have fucked with democracy in Latin America, you must love that Kool Aid.


:hi:

[Lost-in-FL]

128. "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"

is a good start. Great book. http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/0452287081.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_V58509623_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452287081/sr=8-1/qid=1156305842/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-0134885-5034464?ie=UTF8

[lonestarnot]

120. WTF is this? A rant alright. Last time I checked we didn't

have a war going on with Mexico, but I haven't checked since yesterday.

[jerry611]

124. Over 250 incursions by the Mexican military just last year

Not to mention the invasion of illegal immigrants.

Hell, if it is our responsibility to take care of all those people, we might as well send the Marines in Mexico City again and make Mexico a state.

[Mountainman]

131. "if it is our responsibility to take care of all those people"

That is just the point. You are not taking care of all these people. They come here to work to make money to improve their lives. It is not as if 12 million illegal immigrants are lazing around the country collecting services. The are doing low wage menial labor hoping that they can provide for their kids who will grow up having a better life than they did. Our parents felt the same way. Of course our parents were born here or were they?

[readmoreoften]

127. Weird. My union (UAW) spoke at the protests in favor of immigration.

It's not the immigrants, it's the union busting corporate assholes.

[tyedyeto]

129. The 1st step is to crack down on employers.

Keep the corporations (mainly in agri-biz but other industries as well) from hiring, then discussions may start.

[AZBlue]

132. BRAVO!! WOO HOO!!

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

One thing I've realized is that, at least here on DU, the majority of the people who are crying "boo hoo, the poor illegal immigrants, they just want a better life" are saying this comfortably from a state with, oh I don't know, 6 illegal immigrants in it. You live in Florida - I live in Arizona. We see it first-hand, day after day, year after year. They have no clue what they are talking about and that's what frustrates me the most here.

I completely agree with the idea that we take care of our own first. We have homeless and indigent and poor and displaced Katrina victims, even after a year, and elderly without insurance...and on and on. Shouldn't we give these people a helping hand first?? Once we've taken care of all of them, then we can certainly move onto to citizens of other countries.

[lostnfound]

133. Locking

Inflammatory.