Why does healthy food cost so much more?

[ryanus]

My family and I have really been trying to eat more healthily over the past couple of years, both for proper nutrition and to avoid a lot of the pollutants. It used to be that if you wanted to save money on your grocery bill, you would buy produce and other non-packaged foods, but that is no longer the case.

I have found that it is often more expensive to make meals from scratch than it is to buy it ready-made. And if you want your ingredient organic, the costs can be double (or more) than non-organic. So if I wanted to make a meal from scratch using organic ingredients, I can expect to spend three times as much than if I bought a box of a similar meal off the shelf. Why is that?

I suppose that the lower quality foods are used in packaged foods and that some flavors and colorings are artificial instead the real deal. Like "stawberry" yogurt that uses hardly any strawberries and relies on checmicals for the strawberry flavor and crushed bugs for the red coloring. I am guessing that it is cheaper now to create chemicals that give the appearance and taste of real food, rather than actually using real food. It probably stays on the shelf longer, too, so slave labor from across the world can manufacture the food for really cheap and the food keeps a freah appearance all the way to my town.

I wonder if this also doesn't show the true cost of living, because an apple today is just not the same as an apple 50 years ago. The cost of "strawberry" yogurt today is way more than expected because what they sell today barely can be defined as "strawberry" yogurt. To get real strawberry yogurt you are going to pay three times as much as the leading brand. I noticed our food bill at least doubling when we started buying real, and healthy food. So maybe the next time you see how much Americans spend on groceruies, it maight make sense to automatically double it.

[Marnieworld]

1. This is true

That's why there are many fat poor people because it is so much cheaper to eat processed and fast food. Sometimes you just can't afford to eat healthy.

[undergroundpanther]

14. The more fortunates will

Tell you YOU xcan afford it just go to _whatever place they reccomend_and call cheap.. and what they don't get is it is STILL TOO EXPENSIVE.On 500 bucks a month EVERYTHING is too expensive. That's my reality,they just don't get it.

[Marnieworld]

55. nope I guess it's hard to understand if you haven't been there

For the working poor it is almost impossible to find the time to prepare healthy food but the cost of it prohibits even the thought of it. If you had to juggle daily choosing between food, medicine, and the cost of gas to get you to work to give you money for the food and medicine it is just too hard to not choose the cheapest crap to fill your belly. It's all connected to the living wage and the increasing gap between the rich and poor. There are ways around it all but it sucks that something like this should be this hard in a country with so much wealth.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

104. That's a bullshit answer.

And one that speaks of profound ignorance on your part.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WindRavenX]

108. lol, right, the poor CHOSE to be poor

Give me a fuckin' break :eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

119. You forgot to add that they are poor because they are lazy.

:sarcasm: Is that you George?

[eccles12]

170. Silly, only rich people should live longer.

:sarcasm:

[ananda]

2. Think of it this way..

Good health will save you lots of money in the long run... having to spend much much less on healthcare.

[begin_within]

3. If you buy fresh fruits and vegetables at a local farmer's market or at a

store like "Henry's" in southern California, you can get a lot of healthy food for relatively low cost. But in most cases there will be a lot of labor involved in preparing the fruits and vegetables, so you will spend more time preparing the meal, but the cost of the ingredients will be less. Time is expensive, however.

[undergroundpanther]

17. When you don't drive and

don't live anywhere walking distance near a farmers market and the bus system sucks because rich people don't think poor people exist in THEIR county..well going to a local market is not possible for me and hauling several enviro friendly paper bags of heavy produce many miles along highways with SUV's driving too fast by drivers desperate to get nowhere fast,is just crazy... Poverty really limits your choices that is reality for some regardless of advice the fortunates give poor people there is always an underlying assumption..that there is a way..Look, not everyone is gifted with decent transport or enough money to spare or a farmers market they can get to on foot or by bus.Not everyone can afford what YOU consider a solution..Reality bites harder for some people than you fortunates think..

[Beausoir]

24. I know. I tried to make this point several days ago and got flamed.

If you are poor, you likely have no reliable transportation.

Makes it kind of hard to get to a good market that sells fresh produce, meat and fruits.

Instead, many people end up shopping at convenience stores..because that is all there is in the area.

[undergroundpanther]

30. The fortunate ones just don't want to EMPATHIZE

With us,they want to be pollyanna problem solvers with their MOUTHS.

I tell you day by day I am getting more and more disgusted and angry at the middle class telling poor people how to fix their financial issues.I am sick to death of being told my diet is what makes me fat better fixit and there is NO WAY for me to,they just don't want to empathize if it means they have to come and see how I live.

Well they keep playing make believe and sucking up to the wealthy and pretending this abusive fina ncially exploiting inhuman top down system is OK..

I do take a small comfort in knowing someday they will be poor too,because the corporates want to destroy and enslave people,(ie Not rich)and they will see how fucking ignorant their pollyanna you can do motivational talk like you hear in a corporate"solutions" meeting really was when abject poverty is their budget too..poverty with all the hopelessness and frustration and the pain of being assumed incompetent comes to wreck their little lives.Damn right I am bitter and I do hate fortunate people and thier pollyanna crap.. A hard life has that side effect you know.

[JitterbugPerfume]

36. I am in the same boat , undergroundpanther

and just yesterday I threw out half of a container of strawberries that I paid way to much for just a few days ago because they were mouldy !I eat a lot of beans ,brown rice ,and greens -- and they are no longer cheap either.

and now I hear that the RICE has been messed with by the genetic engineers

[undergroundpanther]

60. Yep

If I get strawberries on sale I go through them when I get home and pick out bad ones (they'll cause the others to rot)and eat up any ripe ones(as in thier skins are soaking red they are too ripe and will be rotting in a few days) and after that I eat the berries in everything everyday until they are gone so they don't get a chance to go bad.I put them in a prominent place .If I can't eat them I freeze them cut them up take off the caps put them in a bag and freeze..I love strawberries but at 3 bucks a pop I feel like a dumb ass if I forget and let them rot. Funny I notivced back in 1997 that produce seemed to rot faster ..Everything rots so fast,It used to not be this way. I remember keeping potatoes like a month before it got bad,Do you notice it too or is it just me?

[JitterbugPerfume]

87. no, it is not just you

I love fresh produce but it goes bad soooo quickly ,especially bananas ,and dont even get me started on those anemic little things they call eggs nowadays

[SmokingJacket]

96. I have a theory about why produce goes off faster now...

I think a lot of produce actually IS older than it used to be, but before you buy it it's being kept in special conditions (cooled and with ethylene gas filters (http://www.ethylenecontrol.com/).

We you bring it home and stick it in your fridge or your fruit bowl, it suddenly catches up to its true age.

[undergroundpanther]

102. FUCK!

That sooo pisses me off.

I swear one day the rich fucking monsters are gonna have a reckoning and I hope it is painful as shit for them.May they have no place to hide may none be spared the wrath they deserve to face. I hope their money is made worthless as the people who's hope health,lifetimes,and happiness and everything else that has been stolen from them in the name of profit and keeping the rich happy rise up and rip them apart along with their whole families,trounced to dust and FORGOTTEN . And may"capital" corporation and profit DIE along with every goddamn lizard hearted greedy sociopath bully.. exploiting humanity and this Earth.. Oh how I am pissed..at this SHIT and the fucking complacency!! AAARgh.

[Arazi]

265. And buying fresh requires more trips/week to get it

since the produce does go bad so quickly.

Hence another time consuming trip via bus or walking to that Farmer's Market or "cheap" grocery store 3 miles away.

Several boxes of pasta or rice or pancake mix will keep for a lot longer than that quart of strawberries. And with both of them costing the same (3 boxes of pasta is about the same cost as a quart of strawberries in my area), which one do you think a person on a fixed income is going to select at the store?

And which one is going to be more "filling"? 3 pancakes for dinner or 4 strawberries??

[mccoyn]

121. This is true of tomattoes.

The government regulation for the term vine-rippened has nothing to do with the way the tomattoe was rippened. It only requires that it have a certain red color. This was all explained on an episode of Good Eats.

I never buy tomattoes from a grocery store. They are always flavorless frauds. Even when they are in season. I think the reason tomattoes are Americas favorite home grown food is because the store ones are so terrible.

I also learned on Good Eats that bananas actually get sweeter when they are ethylene rippened, which is why they are such a successful import.

[SmokingJacket]

138. I once worked at a vegetable packing plant.

NOT a good job. But every tomato that had ANY red on it at all went straight to the ketchup factory. Only the hard green perfect ones got put into the cooler, to be shipped to grocery stores sometime in the future.

[fishwax]

161. that's an interesting theory

thanks for posting the theory and the link. Sounds plausible to me.

[begin_within]

40. You're labeling me that, just because I offered a possible solution on how

to get healthy food at a low cost?

[undergroundpanther]

62. I am saying you do not GET the situation

Some poor people are facing your solution is not feasible for everyone..Depending on income some solutions are OUT OF REACH.. Realize that.

[begin_within]

106. I don't think the solution is to eat fast food or from convenience stores.

[undergroundpanther]

107. No it's not the solution

But it's what is being permitted by the powers that be and people don't defy the powers that be. Look what happends to people that do,Like Food not Bombs. The opression of poor people is very real.

[uppityperson]

110. what happens to Food not Bombs? Which group where?

I know of several that are working fine. What do you mean here? Thanks.

[undergroundpanther]

122. There are reports

http://orlandofoodnotbombs.org/orlandoweekly2.html
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/08/17/18298085.php
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/15183888.htm

plenty of stories of people busted offering food to the homless being beaten aressted harassed.Shit LAWS are being passed to keep people from feeding the homeless...Don't try to tell me there is no opression of the poor and threats at those actually helping them.
It's a fucking classwar.And it hurts.

[uppityperson]

124. thanks. FnB is an interesting grass roots group.

to be a FnB group all you have to do is do it and call yourself one. I know some of them, some groups are more together than others. Yeah, that feeding the homeless opression really is bad. Thank you for the links.


Who says there is no opression of the poor? Why do you continue to attack like this? There is enough opression without attacking when no offense has been given.

[undergroundpanther]

128. I think

I am tired of all the advice I can't use and them people getting offended when I try to explain why I can't use it or why it is difficult or why I have limits.

I am so very weary of this pull yourself up by the bootstraps religion,because sometimes no matter how hard you pull and how much you try and how much it hurts and how many obstacles are in your face and disabilities and other shit,the people offering advice just don't want to face the fact life can be cruel as shit and sometimes there is no way out.My life sucks and I am trapped and overwhelmed. I have limits I am not super man.I have issues I have disabilities that make it all harder. I am in a bad place.

It isn't just poverty grinding down it's the emotional effects of it. It's not just disability It is the effects of it in my life..Things are never so simple as they look in a thread online.. I live with aching loneliness ,a toxic relationship because of the money situation,I live with triggers and never ending frustrations that are not addressed or even seen by the bootstraps crowd who seem to want to compartmentalize people and stuff and that's not how reality is.


And I am so frustrated.All I want is empathy and hands on face to face help,some relationship with someone who isn't gonna tell me everything that's WRONG with me,Because I am PAINFULLY aware of everything wrong with me. I don't want more ADVICE on should do's . I have a brain I use it well and I do what I can. Sometimes money interferes with the best of intents.I am frustrated by the limits my environment and income and disabilities put on me. I am frustrated with my fucked up body,my mind my disabilities.. So advice on how to make yogurt isn't gonna fix that deep tough stuff that hurts me so .It doesn't stop superficial jackasses from humiliating me calling me lazy irresponsible or saying I chose this or whatever..And this assumption that this stigma should not make me ANGRY is just insane.Advice on frugality doesn't help that awkwardness when you are out socially and WHAT DO YOU DO for a living always comes up and I have nothing to tell them..It makes everything hurt when everything you are is tied to money.IT makes you feel invalidated invisible and worthless..Yogurt making tips won't make a bus appear out here that can get me to the kinds of supports I need to survive emotionally..Undersatand? Poverty is a COMPLEX issue it effects many facets of a person's life. Simple frugality solutions are helpful sometimes but it does not cure the deep emotional wounds that poverty and the stigmas it carries causes in the soul.

[uppityperson]

131. Indeed. I went from living out in the bush, no power, etc to living in a

playhouse of a relative, with a toddler. No job, did have a car though. No money, how the hell to get a job when all the decent day cares were full and expensive. Why pay to have someone else raise my child while I worked to bring home $1/hour (after paying for childcare). Living off family sucks. Is ok for a while, then gets really hard since no matter what, everything comes with a price. And then you hear "poor choices" and "all you have to do is try" and people just don't understand and it gets to the point you don't bother to try and tell them because they just look at you blankly.

Indeed. I hope the best or at least ok for you. Life is hard. Our culture has a whole lot of problems and a lot of people miss out on a lot due to a lot of things.

[mad-mommy]

212. I should have read lower...

that is one hell of a reply, you have hit it home as hard as anyone could, if people don't get it now, they never will. Your reply brought tears to my eyes. I feel very hopeless in my own life, and very hopeless in helping other people struggling. Some people have good intentions though, but I think you have made it very clear, there are no easy answers.

[ScreamingMeemie]

250. Perhaps you are lucky where you live, but farmer's markets are not

cheap here. :shrug:

[NotGivingUp]

145. too may are willing to step on the backs of others, in order to

raise themselves a little higher. that's the kind of people that have evolved in this greedy, capitalistic society.

[mad-mommy]

209. not all middle class people treat people less fortunate with idignity

I have been totally relating to your posts, and replies. We are supposedly middle class, but things have become very tight for us, and the people more fortunate than we are, have all of the answers for us as well. Right now we are managing...but living on the edge. Have worked very hard to get the modest things we have, all to possibly lose them if the economy continues. I don't think there is a middle class.


it's either working, or not working poor. (and not labeling poor people as not wanting to work or lazy, just many unemployed people out there)

or

the people with money to burn. people with money to burn have no concept of what it is like.


If there is a middle class, not all middle class people treat people less fortunate with idignity. I had it hard growing up, and I never forget it. Sadly, some people forget, and they are the ones who can do something to make a difference.

don't worry, we know how it is to live the hard way, how will the fortunates cope if it all comes crashing down?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

52. I posted to a thread on this topic a few days ago

There was a person on the thread who didn't understand why the local corner store didn't provide better selection. They used the phrase "supply and demand". I pointed out that size of cold storage was limited and fresh foods spoil quickly. Also, that the local Frito Lay and Toms distributor would rotate the stock and eat the loss from spoilage rather than charge the store owner.

I get so frustrated sometimes trying to explain what daily life is like for those with limited choices.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

65. Good god. That is so totally uncalled for.

Are you capable of responding in this thread without lashing out at your fellow DUers? NOTHING in the last post was condescending or insulting, and it certainly didn't merit that nasty response.

[undergroundpanther]

73. It felt condescending to me

Because explaining the theories of supply and demand to people with no way out is well kinda callous to them.. Market theories when people are wanting decent food it's so abstract it offers nothing tangible they can use to help their situation you understand? Of course people know about supply demand theories.Theories are ABSTRACTIONS they don't help poor people get to decent produce unless that theory is challenged by people with the WAYS AND MEANS to challenge it and if nobody is hands on challenging it.. what options do the poor have? It's crappy rotten produce or crappy rotten produce..

[Shakespeare]

75. He wasn't explaining supply and demand. He was answering...

...a question about why convenience stores don't carry more fresh produce. It was a specific and informed answer; there was nothing abstract about it.

You DO have options. I know, because I've been there myself.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

77. Read the post more closely

I pointed out the fact that the person using that phrase was out of line. I did not try and apply that concept to the situation.

I wouldn't even have mentioned it but I thought it was the same thread that Beausoir was referring to and it seemed relevant.

Peace

[pauliedangerously]

85. About "fresh" produce

I read an article awhile back that asserted that frozen produce is actually healthier than "fresh." The reason is that the "fresh" stuff is often picked before it's ripe and is artificially ripened, whereas the frozen produce is picked ripe and flash-frozen.

Yeah, a fresh strawberry is way better tasting thana frozen one, but frozen ones blended with yogurt, juice, and ice make an awesome smoothie that costs a lot less than a prepared one.

Hope this helps.

[Arazi]

267. But most convenience stores don't carry a lot of frozen veggies or fruit

And if you get it at the store that's 2 - 3 miles away, it takes a half hour or longer to walk home carrying it or sometimes even longer if you take a bus. Depending on the heat, your frozen foods won't be frozen when you get them home - they will have gotten soggy and smooshy.

Again, the logistics of being poor are really tough for most people to comprehend.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

79. I got into an argument with another Dem recently

She's a doctor and believes that fast food and junk snacks should be heavily taxed to discourage people from eating it. I pointed out to her that this would penalize poor people disproportionately. We were sitting in her large home in a gated community as we were having this conversation. At first, she refused to believe that there are millions of people living in this country with no access to well-stocked grocery stores and no cooking facilities in their homes if they could get to Cosco, Safeway, or Trader Joes. She also didn't realize that healthy food is generally more expensive than junk. There are people who live off of fast food for those reasons and adding a tax to it would devastate them economically. She's a very smart and thoughtful person so after some persuasion I could see that she softened her position a bit. But it just goes to show that a lot of people, even on our side, are unaware of how others really live.

In the past there were some good efforts made by cities to encourage grocery stores to locate in underserved communities. It's a win-win because they provide decent jobs along with better food choices. But that's gone by the wayside as retail tax incentives are lavished on suburban development.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

26. Yup

For reasons that I can't for the life of me understand, there's a lot of people who think everyone else's world is just like theirs. Every person out there has the same options and choices as they do, same venues, same transportation available to them.

I guess self-righteous is in this season. :(

[undergroundpanther]

32. Blinded by thier own fortune is more like it.

And they have no clue how fucking INSULTING they are to poor people with thier advise.

[begin_within]

43. What fortune was that the supposedly blinded me? Do you think that

rich people actually care about poor people? And that they would stop to take the time to reply to a thread like this?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

57. No, most people don't know what it's like

I just wish they could try, just try is all I'm asking, to think about the difficulties that people who live poor face on a daily basis just surviving.

[undergroundpanther]

64. thank you.

I am so sick of defensive fortunate people saying they know how it is to be poor .. their advice it makes me pissed as hell because for me it is out of reach,it would make sense if I had money and options where I live but it ain't THERE.It seems people just do not GET it and it's like banging ones head against a mad buggers wall to talk to these people about MY situation as it IS they don't want to even hear it,they wanna play financial guru and sage and tell my happy time stories about if I just changed my additude..new age bullshit... They ain't gonna help me if it means THEM working to get transport for poor people ,the poor can afford to access the things THEY have... They don't want poor riff raff in their hoods...

[Shakespeare]

69. You make incredibly wrong-headed assumptions about people.

Yes, I most certainly DO know what it's like to be poor. I'm not in the best situation right now myself--I'm unemployed, and don't get free (or even reduced) rent. YOU try living in Los Angeles on my budget. But here's the difference: I've gone to the effort to find some solutions that work for me on my budget--it's not "new age bullshit," it's called surviving. I know what processed food does to the body, and I've scrounged and scrambled to find other, better ways to feed myself. I've even offered to HELP you, and you've ignored me.

[undergroundpanther]

76. And what can you do from across the continent

Not much.Not in a practal tangible way.Advice that cannot work because of constraints I face is idea that may work for others but it won't for me. That's reality.If some are helped great.But some advice is not workable for others. You have to realize one size does not fit all and that inclues the ways and means to survive people have or don't have. .

[Shakespeare]

78. How do you know I can't help you? You won't even listen.

Advice from people who've been in your situation is both practical AND tangible--but only if you choose to listen. NOWHERE have I suggested a "one size fits all" solution--in fact, I've very specifically said that different situations require different solutions, and have then offered to help you find the information you need for your particular situation. You continue to do nothing but answer me with nastiness and negativity.

[uppityperson]

81. Do you want help, advice, or do you want to vent here?

Seems like a lot of people are trying to help, and what you really want is just to vent about how bad your situation is. Please clarify. Thank you.

[undergroundpanther]

114. If a "solution" is unworkable for ME,and

MY situation please don't harp that my attitude isn't all sunshine when I tell you in MY situation a solution is unworkable because it is..I said before in other posts if a solution helps someone else GREAT,but the people offering solutions to me they don't see the whole picture of how hard it really is for some people like me with my income my transportation barriers and disabilities. Some people offering ideas seem to have a blind spot in listening to others situations they seem to think what works for them will fix everyone and this isn't realistic.. Alot of the suggestions like the yogurt maker idea are actually unworkable for some people because they can't afford to BUY a yogurt maker.. and they don't got TIME to make the yogurt.I brought up YARD sale yogurt makers for those who couldn't afford to plunk down 40 bucks but still may want to try to make yogurt anyways. Do you see the difference in the way we think? The Yard sale idea never entered your mind. I guess because you can afford 40 bucks for a yogurt maker from Target or somewhere. I can't.So my solutions will have to be different than yours.

[uppityperson]

116. You know nothing about me and assume much.

Perhaps you missed my post about making yogurt in a container (old margerine tub) wrapped in a blanket to keep warm overnight. Or my post about washing diapers by hand in a bucket because I didn't have electricity. You are right. Our solutions will be different because I can figure out how to make yogurt without needed a fancy electric device or using much time to heat the milk, stir in the starter, put it in a container and wrap it in a blanket. Oh yes, there are no yard sales where I lived and did all this. Good luck to you.

[undergroundpanther]

132. Good luck to you too

I guess I don't have the emotional supports so it is a bit more bleak to me in my situation,. Good luck with whatever you do regardless. I don't see any purpose to make margarine tub yogurt when I am exhausted,I don't have the stamina to do it..Emotions and stress have an impact on how things are,and sometimes positive thinking just does not stick no matter how hard you try. Depression exists.And poverty makes depression worse.

[uppityperson]

133. indeed.

I answered more elsewhere here, so won't repeat again here. :hug:

[Matariki]

154. nevermind

self-delete

[begin_within]

41. I ride my bike to Henry's, is that self-righteous?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

53. Sweetie, I really didn't mean you.

Honestly. I was just still ticked off over a Wal-Mart thread filled with self-righteousness but I wasn't ticked at you. I swear.

If I were I would have replied to you and been snitty... :P

Peace. :)

[Shakespeare]

34. But there's still an option for you.

There are CSA programs (community supported agriculture) that will deliver a box full of fresh, locally grown seasonal produce to your doorstep for a modest price. If you can't afford even than, most food banks now make fresh produce available.

And if you're rural or even have a small back yard, you can grow most of your own produce at almost no cost.

There are ways to acquire fresh produce for your family that don't require wealth or access to transportation.

[undergroundpanther]

66. Well put up the info

Don't just TALK ABOUT IT..and leave it in the abstract..

Where do we acess this stuff,Gimmie a website a phone number a map where these services are located and deliver to THAT
would HELP..

[Shakespeare]

70. Tell me where you live, and I will.

I've already said that if you'll give me some idea where you live, and what kind of home you live in (do you have a yard, or even a patio?) that I'll get you the information you need. Instead of taking swipes at me, give me the info I need to get YOU the information.

[Shakespeare]

74. And one more question:

You said you get $500 a month, and live rent-free with your mother. What is your monthly food budget? If I have that info, I can give you more specific/helpful pointers.

[conflictgirl]

285. Do you have links to CSA finders?

I have looked before, but last I checked the nearest CSA was 80 miles away. We can't afford to make that trip so often (and obviously they won't deliver up here) so that was one solution that has never worked for us.

Once we bought our own house, we put in a garden right away and keep expanding it every year because we were lucky enough to be able to get a house with a good-sized lot. (As an aside, even some of our own relatives have commented on how our garden is "too big" and implied that it was an eyesore because it takes up about half of the backyard by now and is bigger in square footage than our house.) I've also learned how to can tomatoes, make pickles, can salsa, and make jam. For the price you can't beat it - though you're also vulnerable there in the sense that some years might yield far less than others, like this year. And we need to have a tree in the back yard cut down so our garden can get more sun, but we can't afford the cost of cutting down a tree.

We also couldn't have nearly as big of a garden if we were renting. We did rent for a few years and we did container gardening on the back patio, but it didn't really produce enough to make much of a dent in our food budget for a family of five.

[begin_within]

37. If you're insinuating that I am one of those "fortunates" than you need to

take a look at my income tax returns for the last few years. I simply offered you one way to get healthy food at the lowest possible price, and that is to buy it raw ans prepare it yourself. This is what I do. You're paying a lot for the labor when you buy readh-to-eat food.

[Richard Steele]

176. Sick irony: sources of good CHEAP food are hard to reach for the poor.

Sources of good cheap EVERYTHING are hard to reach for the poor.

In this country, you can't START "saving money on things" until you buy
a car and drop $50/week into its tank.
IF you can't do that, you're SCREWED; you settle for whatever you can get,
wherever you can fnd it.

[ariellyn]

29. Farmer's markets are not what they used to be. Two tomatoes cost $3

at a market near my home recently. !!!!

Not only that, many of them don't sell what I would call actual farm products--some seem to hawk market-up commercial foods.

[begin_within]

33. There seems to be 2 kinds of "farmer's markets" now - the "boutique" ones

and the bargain-basement "outlet" kind which are bare-bones and the stuff is dirt cheap. The "boutique" ones are very popular now, and the produce is just as expensive, or even more expensive, than grocery store produce. The variety and quality is usually higher though. I agree $1.50 per tomato is too much to pay, especially when tomatoes are so easy to grow.

[mccoyn]

56. I've noticed the same thing.

I went back to my hometown earlier this summer and the farmers market there was very cheap and also didn't have a lot of customers. Back in my home city the farmers market is swarming with people and the produce is the same price as the grocery stores (although it tastes much better.)

Its very hard to get good food at a good price in the city and many people don't have yards to grow it.

[undergroundpanther]

123. How do you tell a Boutique

from a real one..? Prices,and how can you tell without going there and wasting a day to get there? If there isn't many markets around you can get to what then ? Stuck with a Boutique and no car you are stuck with expensive produce..Sux.

[OzarkDem]

155. Local farmers use pesticides also

Just because it comes from a local farm doesn't mean its organic.

[bklyncowgirl]

247. That's great if you live in an area where such things are available

If you do not live in an area where there are farmers markets and food coops and moderately priced supermarkets you are going to be paying for transportation--to get to these markets.

Even in New York, with its wonderful Korean vegetable stores, seemingly on every corner--the poor are often not well served. The stores congregate in middle and upper class areas. The poor have to make the trip (money) into unfamiliar neighborhoods (fear) and are frequently treated badly by the store owners (prejudice). It's alot easier to buy some crappy prepared food from the crappy supermarket near your home.

If you are poor and live in the country you're shopping at Walmart-which at least has fresh vegetables--but still it's often cheaper to get the prepackaged stuff and if you're working more than one job or have a long commute spending hours in the kitchen is not an option.

[jeffrey_X]

264. If they produce isn't of good quality it also spoils very quickly...

which doesn't help the situation.

[SmokingJacket]

4. Also, industrial food can be profitable with just a small margin.

If huge agricultural conglomerate makes just a nickel profit for each head of lettuce, they'll get rich, but a small organic farm needs to make much more per head to survive.

This year I've really been trying to support local farmers, and it IS more expensive. But I try to imagine that money as being plowed back into the local economy which will benefit me and my family in the longer run.

[Sinti]

5. It also, to some degree, depends on where you live

If you live, as I now do, where the food grows and buy local it's still cheaper to make food from scratch. Back in Northern VA it was way more expensive to eat fresh. And yep, all the reasons you stated above are why processed food is cheaper in most parts of the U.S. - it's low quality, exploits foreign labor, and a lot of it doesn't really qualify as food, a more apt term would be semi-nutritional chemical compound. Eat well, save on doctor bills.

BTW Welcome to DU :hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

6. Most manufactured foods, like your "yogurt,"

are engineered to optimize agricultural subsidies. High fructose corn syrup is in everything, for instance, primarily because production of corn is so heavily subsidized. In countries without substantial subsidies on corn production, healthier sweeteners are used. Same with whey--basically a waste product that stinks up lakes and rivers. Now they use it to stick the flavoring to your Doritos. Why? Because there are strings that tie your tax dollars to every squirtin' udder.

In Holland last year, I had a Coke and a bag of Doritos, two things I would not eat in America. Coke ingredients were water, sugar, caffeine, and caramel color. Doritos: corn, water, paprika, salt.

By being born here, you are essentially forced to pay them to poison you... welcome to democracy.

[leftofthedial]

10. one major clarification

welcome to capitalist "democracy" owned by corporations

[SmokingJacket]

99. Very important post. Thank you. nt

[fed-up]

7. You are trying to compare apples with oranges :)

Poisoned, processed, packaged "food" is NOT food.

Asking why the cost of chemically flavored, vitamin depleted/added cardboard costs half the price of real food that is grown in soil that contains the micronutrients that we all need to live healthy lives sort of answers itself.

Most Europeans are finicky about their food and their food budgets are almost double ours, they are willing to put their money where their mouth is. They care about the quality of the food they eat and what they feed their children, They also care about the impact of HOW their food is raised on the environment.

As long as Americans think that the crap that comes in those pre-packaged boxes at bargain prices is "food" the growers will continue to grow it.

IF you shop at your farmer's market and buy things like grains and beans in bulk you will find that you can save a good deal. You might also want to try having a small kitchen garden to raise greens and herbs to cut down your expenses. I also found that our local Canned Foods Grocery Outlet gets organic food once in a while, so I stock up on the frozen or packaged items that I can't afford at our health food store.

[Captain Hilts]

8. Because they know the demographic that wants it can afford it.

THAT's why tofu is expensive.

[bperci108]

45. Depends where you buy it....

...at the little Vietnamese grocery I occasionally stop at, it's really cheap.

Fresh, too. :)

[Jed Dilligan]

135. Yes, it's absolutely cultural as well as economic,

however, culture has a geography and economics has a way of keeping the poor in place. So if you aren't fortunate enough to live in an area that has suffered the "brown tide" or "yellow hordes" of immigration from countries where people care what they eat, you are stuck on the "whitebread" diet--unless you go high-end. When I was poor-er and lived in urban areas, I relied entirely on Asian and Central American food stores, the only ones I could access where the food was not crap. Now I buy organics at a reasonable rate from a local co-op, but I am also (though still poor) at least twice as rich as I was. But I am aware that the only fruit available to many Americans is that bunch of black bananas with the flies on it hanging in the corner liquor store.

There are some hopeful aspects to this situation, now. The growing market for quality food has driven prices down, out of the specialty category. Supermarket chains, faced with competition from discount stores, are adding organic and free-range options at their typically discounted prices. And the community garden movement seems to be gaining momentum, especially since the correlation between nutrition and school performance has been established.

[bperci108]

139. You got it.

I like those ethnic neighborhoods and the grocery stores, street vendors and taquerias that they contain. People who have had little to nothing have learned to survive, nay thrive on it. I know an mexican immigrant, turned successful small restaurateur, that could do things with offal (like tongue, intestines, etc.) that my kids loved when they were little.

There is a lot of "food wisdom" in the immigrant communities; we would do well to learn from them.

This is a problem we will have to solve ourselves; corporate Amerika isn't going to do it for us. Europeans pioneered the Slow Food movement from the grass-roots. We will have to do the same. There is no panacea; it will have a thousand different little solutions.

:)

[Matariki]

156. $1.59 in supermarkets in my area

for a block of tofu that can easily feed 4 people. less than that in asian markets.

how much is it in your local super-market?

[kineneb]

168. $2.59 out in the boonies

easier to get the $2.99/lb freshly ground beef from the real butcher shop...Hubby might eat it if he is feeling well enough...no ethnic groceries here, the best food bargins are at Grocery Outlet and the Dollar Tree, 25 miles away...

[bperci108]

172. Try to find a local packing house or butcher....

...instead of a store-front retail shop.

Most sell meat in "bundles", i.e. 10-50lb. groupings of ground beef and other cuts, with maybe a steak or two thrown in for a unit price well below retail.

And the quality is far superior. The hamburger we get this way is so lean, you have to add a little oil to cook it. Shop around and ask around, even at a local restaurant. Or look in the Yellow Pages; Chances are there is one near you.

[kineneb]

200. that "is" the local butcher shop

when I say boonies, I mean it- 65,000 in entire county and no freeways into the area. Very peaceful, but quite out of the way. We were able to buy our house almost outright and have a very low payment, less than anything we could rent in the US, anywhere.

The shop I mentioned is locally owned and the meat is cut by the owner himself- I have watched him. He does sell in bulk, but we lack both the money and storage space to purchase large quantities of anything. Other than his place, there are the usual grocery stores which are fairly expensive. The closest bulk outlets are 1.5 hours away, over the hills. The local restaurants all get their food shipped in on truck from the food service companies.

I get my vegies from my garden, even though our metered water is pricy.

[Matariki]

208. that sounds pretty good!

Is $2.99 alot for beef or cheap? I don't buy it often. But meat straight from the butcher - you're lucky!

I have a great chinese recipe for tofu w/ ground beef, that even people scared of tofu would like, it your interested. Even at $2.59, it's not so much if you consider a block is enough for a couple meals or people.

[NuttyFluffers]

251. by me: $2.49 Safeway, same product $1.29 local asian market

$0.99 for 4 blocks of another good local brand in same asian market. in fact, this same cheap tofu was the same price when i lived in CA big central valley and went to the town's local co-op. tofu *should* be dirt cheap, but people price accordingly to the market.

which reminds me, i've never seen mac'n'cheese so damn cheap until i went and visited "wonder bread" rural america (where some of my relatives are). same thing applied to the wonder bread, i guess to no surprise. i think market forces might have more of an insidious influence than previously believed. i think it might need a method to study one's rural area and find out what cheap, nutritious foods are readily available. i'm sure in big peach or corn areas one could make that a staple of their diet, but i'd have to see someone's else's options before i come to any conclusions. anyone can site that their situation is hopeless on an anonymous board -- no one can help unless one can offer a second look. but considering the places i visited, even though there's seemingly insidious forces at work, there's still options available. but then i'm a skin flint scrooge mc duck, i am.
:D

[unpossibles]

9. I don't completely agree, but I know what you mean

organic is definitely more expensive, but the reason I disagree is that the initial motivation in me eating healthier was because I was piss broke. It does take more time though, but I try to make extra and eat leftovers. I'm also a vegetarian, which is also cheaper if you stay away from too many of the premade things and meat substitutes. And I used to eat some really cheap stuff that was horrible before I started being more food aware.

[Ron Green]

11. Shifting from corporate eating back to whole eating will at first be

expensive, but so is any massive change in practice. The money can only come from the public and foundational side, because corporate marketing will desperately continue to push junk food and empty calorie distribution.

Education is the key, along with subsidy of food banks, farmers' markets and buying co-ops, and heavy tariffs on "food" that's too far away from real life.

Just as with sustainability in energy and building, the idea's time will come. Fight the good fight.

[SoCalDem]

12. "Shelf-stability" and longevity are part of the problem

Fresh/organic foods are more perishable,a dn must be shipped/shopped for/used faster, so their cost is more because of that too.
Preservatives have brought costs down, but I always try to steer clear of things with multisyllabic names :)

Cooking with fresh stuff pretty much means we have to make a committment to food that most people are not willing to make.

We have to shop more often (European-style) and actually plan our meals.. People here are very busy and often do not want to take the time to do it.

it IS very possible and can be done on a budget (I have done it for DECADES)..

My aunt used to cook only on Sunday... all day long.. and then portion out meals and freeze them for use during the week..

I always liked to go to her house on Sundays.. Sometimes she would be cooking spaghetti, pot roast, chili, stew..you name it..

her philosophy was that instead of messing up the kitchen every day, why not do it all in one day and be done with it.. She had her own business and rarely got home before 6..and was too pooped to cook:)

[Kickoutthejams23]

13. Beans, rice are healthy food as well.

Organic fruits and vegetables cost a lot more to produce than their non-organic cousins for a variety of reasons. But why restrict yourself to "american" foods. Flour beans rice even tofu can be a much less expensive meal than say prepared frozen dishes. Buy fruits and veggies from local farmer stands in season only. Restrict your meat to game and fish caught by local hunters and use base foods popular in other countries and you can eat organic and healthy for much less than you do now.

Fresh fruits and vegetables being available year round is a modern American invention. Eating organic often means doing without them out of season.

[undergroundpanther]

15. Eating beans and rice everyday

is not viable for everybody. I have tried it.I suffered for it.

[sui generis]

20. yeah! and everyone around you!

:P

Actually, eating beans and rice a lot desensitizes you to those side-effects. It's like milk - even if you're not lactose intolerant, if you stop all dairy for a month and then have a glass of milk you'll suffer too, until you re-adjust.

But yeah, I could probably deflect an asteroid, alter the jet stream, etc., especially if you add onions. :blush: I know what you mean.

[undergroundpanther]

35. For me,

I have a problem with processing certain foods my body does not extract the nutrition out of certain foods. I have an endocrinologist telling me this is my problem It is inborn. Yet people insist I am lying about it,and that attitude frustrates the living shit out of me.Seems like for some people diet has become a religion and THAT is their problem.

But regardless I do the best I can with what I got to work with. I limiting foods that make me sick.And I limit foods that my body can't use..unfortunately which is sometimes the healthier but cheaper stuff. I hate it but what can I do my body is fucked.And So am I.

[diamidue]

16. Do you buy a lot of meat?

Do you buy a lot of packaged, processed foods? Sweets, sodas, dairy? Sometimes it comes down to re-thinking how you eat. Basics like brown rice, beans, vegetables & fruits, turkey, wild fish, etc. are not that expensive. It's the packaged things & the meats that add up. Organic vegetables do cost more. I used to go to the local farmer's market for my vegetables because even tho they weren't organic, I knew they were fresh. Then one day someone told me, "Yes, the freshest pesticides in town!".

It just takes a little readjustment & time. You will find a way.

[undergroundpanther]

21. That's what they ALL say

Find a way handle it..The old motivational speech that helps nothing. Finagling can only go so far than you run right into a price take with VERBOTEN for you! Written in numbers on it.

Inequality and financial abuse by rich thugs is the root of this problem. Not poor people doing the impossible more efficiently. Sheesh. Try living on 500 bucks a month with no transport and tell me how EZ going organic is. I have make myself sick of beans rice..I can only eat certain beans and I cannot extract the protein from beans or soy so I eat small amounts of meat and the self righteous vegetarians get on my ass for it. Fuck it being poor,is just torture but I don't expect someone who thinks an organic lifestyle is so affordable to GET how futile it is for people with certain levels of poverty who will be left out of the privilege of access to healthy food. Lets look at MY choices..Hmm I could have heating oil,a trip to a dentist,a new pair of glasses so I can see, repair the house,or an ORGANIC DIET!! Ohhh which to choose!! Damn right I'm pissed off. I do hate rich people and their little Eichmann's pollyanna advice that is ALWAYS coming from a position of having talking down as if they KNOW what it is like to live like this..

[Shakespeare]

38. Okay, you can sit there and lash out at people trying to HELP, or....

...you can look at some of the very reasonable solutions others have offered on this thread. Solutions that don't involve being rich or having access to transportation. Where do you live? Do you have a small backyard? Do you have even just a small patio? Even THAT will allow you to grow a lot of your own produce at almost NO cost to you.

I've done this myself OUT OF PERSONAL NECESSITY, so don't make the mistake of assuming I can't identify with your situation. I can, and have. If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to help you get the information you need (and even direct you to where and how to get anything you need to set up a garden for free).

I've done this. YOU can do this. Yes, corporate farming sucks, and the war on the poor is one of the most immoral things this country has ever done. But UNTIL we make some headway in defeating that, there are other things we can do for ourselves in the meantime.

[SmokingJacket]

112. Actually, wild fish costs a LOT more!

I want to eat wild rather than farmed fish, but at my groc, it's at least twice as much -- and fish ain't cheap to start with. I'd catch it myself, but my local lake is polluted.

My husband recently got a new and better job, and we're using the extra income to eat higher quality food -- it's been my new project for the last few months. It's outrageously expensive. Canned pears = .69 a can, serves two kids. Fresh pears = 1.49 a pound, about two pears per pound, one pear per kid, so about the same serving. That's twice as much (and about twice the nutrients too, which is why it's worth doing if you can.)

The idea that junk food is more expensive than healthy food is no longer true, as the OP states.

The best the poor can do is hunt for foods that limit the damage -- I know of a local bakery that makes whole wheat bread without preservatives that is just as cheap as wonder bread, but not every area has this -- or grow their own.

[Seanmhair]

18. In our experience....

Healthy eating has greatly reduced our food costs.

But we buy all our meats, fish, cheese, fruits and veggies from the local farmer's market. We only shop the grocery store for staples, flour, noodles, condiments, etc. (The aisles of processed crap that passes for food these days is just dizzying! And if you noticed, you have top work to find healthy food in the big-box supermarkets!)

We cook simple meals from scratch and love to BBQ. Often, we'll cook double or triple the amount of food needed for a meal and portion size & freeze the rest...for a quick meal on those days we don't feel like cooking.

Here's a recipe to make your own yoghurt.

Yogurt

* One quart whole milk
OR
* One quart 2% plus 1/4 cup powdered milk
* Yogurt starter - use yogurt from the grocery store the first time, but be sure it has live culture; the label will tell you.

Heat to 190 degrees - just below boiling - to scald, then pour into a shallow pan and let it cool to 115 degrees, or cool enough so you can place a drop on your inside wrist without discomfort, but still quite warm. Add 2 to 3 tablespoons of yogurt starter and mix thoroughly, then place in a warm, draft free place, and cover with plastic or cloth. (You can use individual containers at this point if you like, but it's easier to keep one larger batch warm) It will need to set overnight, or 10 to 12 hours, to 'make'.

Ways to 'incubate', or keep the yogurt warm enough to make include:

* Use a yogurt maker which keeps the temperature at the right place (not extremely frugal).
* Set the pan into a larger bowl of hot water and placing in a well insulated oven.(replace the hot water two or three times during the wait)
* Make a small batch which can be incubated in a wide mouth thermos to keep the temperature.
* Put your container on a radiator, on a hot water heater, near a wood stove, or over a floor register.

Anything goes, as long as you can keep it from getting cold.

However you do it, refrigerate when it gets to the right stage. If you use it often, reserve enough to start the next batch.

-----
There are more recipes at this link:

http://frugalliving.about.com/cs/frugalrecipes/a/printrecipes.htm

Once you get used to a healthy buying/cooking/eating lifestyle, you'll never look back!

[undergroundpanther]

25. Umm

Yogurt makers cost on average forty bucks. Maybe twenty if you get a deal. It makes ten small cups,two of those cups equal one cup of dannon.Next it takes TEN HOURS to make yogurt.and you can't let it overcook or it will be nasty. If you have a hectic schedule like working double shifts it is very hard to time your life around yogurt making.forty bucks for some can be quite a budget hole. Spending 5 bucks for ten yogurt cups to last two weeks for some makes more sense than making it at home...This is some of the things these "you can do it" people don't say when glorifying their"solution". Alot of yogurt makers wind up in yard sales for a reason.(if you find a yard sale yogurt maker wash it VERY WELL.) This is why I get so irritated when people who have advise have nots on frugality..Do you got forty bucks for a yogurt maker and do you wanna pay 3 bucks at a yard sale,scrub out a used one with no instruction papers and hope it works ok?

[uppityperson]

68. Did you miss this part? Dont need a "yogurt maker"

Or are you just happy complaining about anything anyone says? You do NOT need a "yogurt maker".

Set the pan into a larger bowl of hot water and placing in a well insulated oven.(replace the hot water two or three times during the wait)
* Make a small batch which can be incubated in a wide mouth thermos to keep the temperature.
* Put your container on a radiator, on a hot water heater, near a wood stove, or over a floor register.

[undergroundpanther]

126. Whatever..

Because

Or are you just happy complaining about anything anyone says? You do NOT need a "yogurt maker".


Ok Fine You think I am pissing on your cornflakes and you can't handle it but read on..to see why this isn't easy.

Set the pan into a larger bowl of hot water and placing in a well insulated oven.(replace the hot water two or three times during the wait)

What if you got a cheep oven. My cheep oven is not able to do the low temps.It cannot get lower than 250 and it heats inconsistently as in not insulated enough to keep the temp steady if it's low.That's how cheep ovens are.


* Make a small batch which can be incubated in a wide mouth thermos to keep the temperature.
* Put your container on a radiator, on a hot water heater, near a wood stove, or over a floor register.

I don't have floor registers.They are higher up.overhead.Maybe I could put a nail in the ceiling and tie it up there next to a register?
Don't have a wood stove or the money for one.
Hot water heater may work but it is cool to the touch because it is turned down on the lowest setting...I dunno if it will work or not.A thermos I haven't got one. Could haul ass to a dollar store and see if they got one.

It isn't easy or simple as you think for my situation and everyones situation differs here.Why can't you accept that?
Instead you complain I rain on your advice parade? Like I am somehow evil because I'm not praising your sage advice and acting like making yogurt will solve my situation which is more complicated than you know....And you get offended I am frustrated? At MY OWN SITUATION and at the assumptions being thrown my way about my un-cooperativeness with accepting what you think I should do when I think about it I see it is not easy..My situation differs.Why am I so nasty because I have a different situation.And say so...?..WTF?

[uppityperson]

127. someone posts how to do something, you pick out

someone posts how to do something (example, make yogurt), you pick out 1 part to show why it won't work for you (can't afford a yogurt maker) and complain that no one understands. It is pointed out that there are other possibilities (thermos bottle, floor register). You then attack and say why none of them will work for you, that your situation differs and of course no one understands this.

There are options. (Look below to post #91 for another option.) That is all. You do not have to accept anyone's advice. Your situation is unique. No one will ever understand. I am sorry for you. Good luck.

[orwell]

90. FWIW: I make my yogurt...

...before I go to bed and it is ready in the morning. I use a thrift store yogurt maker I got for $3. (People get rid of them out all the time along with great breadmakers.) It has worked for years. I have never had a problem with contamination.

The yogurt I make is delicious, no added sugar or preservatives, fresh and tasty. I use 1% lowfat milk. It keeps for over a week in the refer. I make a quart at a time. I use a bit form the last batch to start the new batch. About once a month I buy storebought brand to get fresh starter. I always use the plain no sugar, no flavoring varieties. Dannon is a decent commercial brand. Nancy's and Mountain High are better, a wider assortment of cultures. If you want to add fruit to it after you make it, it's your choice. It's a great source of protein and probiotics, and it's much cheaper to make it yourself.

Good luck and peace!

[uppityperson]

91. I have made it while living in an area without electricity

put it in a bowl or pan, bundle it with blanket or clothing or rags or anything to keep warm, let it sit. People have made yogurt for ages, way before having yogurt makers. Sort of like saying you cannot dry your laundry because you don't have a dryer, hang it outside, or up by your ceiling. What do people do who live places without electricity do?

Wash diapers in a bucket with a plunger or stick, hang to dry under a tarp, dry by fireplace. It works. I know. I have done it.

[orwell]

103. Great...

...whatever gets the job done!

Fresh yogurt tastes better and is far cheaper than buying store bought - less packaging waste as well.

BTW: I asume if someone is posting, they have access to electricity... ;)

Peace!

[sui generis]

19. What are your shopping priorities?

A bag of apples is $5 bucks
A bag of onions is maybe 3 bucks
A bag of potatos is $2.50
Fresh green beans for four = about $3.00
plus whatever (we eat EVERYTHING) looks good or cool or interesting; from fennel to whole beets to eggplant to fresh brussel sprouts to bell peppers and all the squash varieties, and I buy local in-season produce as much as possible. Eh, what's a few bugs.

In-season fruit is always cheaper than strawberries in December. Buy in-season nuts (in the shell), bulk raisins, grapes, whole carrots and celery.

Dried beans, real rice (not Minute Rice), plus whole chicken and manager special or bulk meats. Buy tea, caffeinated or de-caff. If your food bill is doubling then throw out the junk food altogether - skip the sodas & chips & candy bars.

And, as everywhere else, ultimately you get what you pay for = there is no such thing as a bargain. If you can prove that a can of watery asparagus is cheaper than a bundle of fresh asparagus, I can prove that you're getting far more than the cost difference in nutrition and fiber from the fresh veggie, plus you're not buying a metal can or the energy used to boil the water to pre-cook the asparagus; plus there's just more asparagus in a bundle than in a can. You can even save the green trimmings from your asparagus bundle and drop them into a potato or bean soup for a bit of added flavor, and they keep in the freezer until needed.

Buy plain or vanilla yogurt. Add crumbled granola, raw oatmeal, raisins, fruit that you are about to freeze or throw away, or thawed lower quality fruit from the freezer.

Yes, a snickers bar is cheaper to buy then buying all the ingredients to make a snickers bar yourself, but if you're really serious about eating healthy it also changes the way you select produce, store produce, and prepare produce. I think it's a wash - I generally spend about $20 - $35 in the produce section each week and we have a fresh steamed or baked (squashes!) veggie every night of the week, plus snack on fruit and crack our own nuts (it keeps you from just pouring a can into your gullet). We don't drink any soda at all, about two gallons of whole milk a week, lots of tea (iced and hot), and I've gotten addicted to plain raw oatmeal (:blush: makes whinnying sound). When we want something flavored to drink we use one of those flavored sugar free drink mixes and drop a teaspoon or two into ice water; a single jar of that is just a couple of bucks and makes gallons.

I've had these habits since I was a starving student and I see people all the time at the store with $80 or more dollars worth of sodas and chocolate and candy and tv dinners and frozen pizzas and pop tarts and frosted junk cereal complaining about how expensive $20 dollars of fresh veggies is. I guess it cuts into their junk food staples.

[orwell]

92. Buying only...

...what is in season is really important. It lowers produce costs dramatically. Not only is the produce ripe, but it is far cheaper than buying even slightly out of season.

Two weeks ago peaches were almost $2.50 per pound, and they weren't even ripe. Now they are less than a buck and sweet, ripe, and juicy.

Asparagus in season is 1.00 per pound, out of season 3.00 to 4.00 per pound.

It is also important to buy nutritionally dense foods. Green beans, brocolli, peas, cabbage are far more nutritionally dense than vegetables like corn. Here is a wesite that lists the nutrtional composition of a lot of fruits and vegetables.

http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php

Another trick is to juice homegrown produce that many will give away during the summer months. I live in a somewhat poor rural community where a lot of people have small gardens. Everyone has too much zuchinni and tomatoes this time of year. I take all that they can give me, juice it up into tasty summer drinks and give some back to them as a finished product. It takes very little time and none of the excess goes to waste. You can find juicers at thrift shops for less than 10 dollars.

You can also make delicious soups and stews out of the excess. It really does require very little time.

Peace through vegetables!

[BonnieJW]

22. Soup

I grew up with it and my kids did too. There was always a large container of soup in our fridge when I was growing up. When I got married and had kids, we were on an extremely tight budget and I just started making soup too. Beans, rice, vegetables and beef bones makes a huge pot of soup and it fed our family of five for several days. I baked our bread every Saturday just because I loved doing it and it was so good. A whole chicken, vegetables and rice or noodles is another one we loved. Nothing smells as good as soup when you walk in the door. With crock pots, you can throw everything in there before work and have the luxury of delicious smells when you come home. It's cheap, good for you and delicious.

[ryanus]

23. Thanks for the replies

I am mostly vegetarian, because I try to eat alklaizing foods (thank you Tony Robbins), and we try to eat a lot of fresh veggies. We buy lots of bulk dry goods.

We are able to absorb the food costs, but I am just surprised at how much more real food costs. And the more I learn about nutrition and modern food technology, the higher my food bill goes because I get more and more picky about what I buy. But that's ok. I've lost fat and am healthier.

But even bulk stuff is changing. More and more items are being irradiated, and GMO is creeping into everything. I am probably going to build us a greenhouse and we will try to get most of our produce from it. I wonder if regular, real food in the near future may be worth gold because everything else is going to be all screwed up.

[sandnsea]

31. Back yards will be gardens

That's what I think. A few people here are already turning their yards into cut flower beds, I bet more people will grow some particular item that they like or grow well, and we'll trade or sell the excess. It can't keep going the way it is, it's a waste of land and I think people are getting tired of the flavorless, nutritionless crap in the produce section.

[librechik]

50. it helps, but not every location is good for growing

I supplement my diet with the tomatoes and herbs I can grow, but frankly there just isn't that much. You would have to really farm intensely and full time to make a dent in your diet with a back yard.
I live at altitude, so the growing season is shorter. I have to get really big tomato plants to get a jump on the spring freezes and shorter fall days, so I sure don't save any money on tomatoes. They're just better tasting. I get a month or two of mezclun and spinach, but then it's too hot.

I had high hopes of producing vegetables and fruits when I started out a decade ago. Every spring my hopes rise again--but it's little more than a pasttime, unfortunately. I think you can do it in California and the southeast, humid, warm areas. Here in Colorado it's a tough row to hoe as they say.

[Seanmhair]

63. Have you looked into this?

http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

We grow all kinds of things on our small city lot :-)

[librechik]

80. yeah I do container gardening and this year I'm adding a large

raised bed in a sunny area--I'm a gardening nerd so I can't stop--I'm going to make it bi-level to include more variety. I've even tried the garbage bag garden thing. Hope springs eternal in the gardening addicts breast!

I'm inspired by these folks:

http://www.freegan.info/

and not just by the gardening strategies

[Shakespeare]

84. Here's a great tip (I just learned this year)--you can grow.....

....potatoes year-round (even in your climate), by using a half-barrel planter and some straw. You essentially layer the plan repeatedly as you harvest, but it works like a charm. Specific instructions are in the Sunset Western Garden book (definitely worth buying if you live in the western states, or you can surely find it at the library). It takes up almost no space, and is a HUGE money-saver.

[librechik]

97. I've heard of this--will try it someday--thanks!

although I have to limit potatoes in my diet.

[bperci108]

182. Now THAT....

...is a neat link I've never seen.

They even link to the IWW...how cool.

Think I'll spend a little reading time there.

Thanks Librechik!


:yourock:

Ever been to www.verdant.net?

There's is a extremely bio-intensive gardening page there; I simply can't believe how much produce they got out of a former yard.

[sandnsea]

153. "trade or sell the excess"

That's what I'm saying, if you were in your own neighborhood type co-op, maybe you would grow a few extra tomato plants since you already like doing it, someone else would put in some extra berries, someone would add a fruit or nut tree, etc. If everybody with yards would add some fruits and vegetables and nuts, we could all eat healthier and really help each other with our food bills. I don't see any other way, in the long run. This crap they're passing off as food in the grocery store is just not good enough.

[diamidue]

192. You eat very much like I do

but I am able to eat very well fairly cheaply as I explained above before you chewed my ass off for trying to help. It took me a long time to figure out how to eat well and cheaply. I wasn't just offering you platitudes. Sorry if you didn't want to hear what I had to say.

[sandnsea]

27. It takes time to develop the routine

The first few weeks of switching your diet is outrageously expensive. Maybe some of these folks can just eat brown rice and cheap fish, I'd sooner jump off a bridge. So there's lots of experimenting which requires new seasonsings, oils, wines, etc. We've bought some soy products that went straight to the garbage, others are on the weekly list. Soy milk is outrageous and not that good for you anyway, so we do 1% milk, but not organic. Where I live, farmers' markets are more expensive because people here put a high premium on fresh food. I can go buy nectarines for 98 cents a lb, or go pick peaches myself for 98 cents a lb. I cannot find them from a farmer for 98 cents a lb. What we do is eliminate additives, added sugar, bad fats, first. We shoot for the purest products, then we add organic as we're able. I do also freeze when I find things in season which is helping. Once you get a new routine and can shop sales for the new staples on your list, it will get more in line with what you're spending now.

[MadHound]

28. If you have the space for it.

Growing your own produce is a fairly cheap alternative. If you live in an apartment, you can grow some produce in pots, strawberries, peas, etc. If you have actual land that you can grow on, you can grow a wide range of produce. Yes, it does cost you in time and effort, and if you are growing in your backyard you have up front costs for a tiller and garden tools. But over a run of five years or more, you will be saving yourself a fairly substantial amount of money. And if you wish to save even more, become a seed saver, and thus you won't have the yearly outlay for seeds.

I'm fortunate in that I was able to afford to purchase a house with some acreage out in the country. I'm turning on part of the land into an orchard, have started growing berry bushes, and I'm already growing mushrooms and traditional garden produce. But growing your own food can be done almost anywhere. I once grew a fairly substantial garden on the balcony of my apartment, including strawberries, various herbs and even a couple of corn plants.

And not only is growing your own food cheaper, it is also healthier, more nutritious for you, and you control what goes into and onto your produce.

[undergroundpanther]

42. Nice idea

IF you can handle the ISOLATION of country life. I myself HATE the isolation of country life.I need to be around more people and activity.Suburban and country living is hell for me emotionally because I can't drive and on my budget it is crazy to live in the suburbs.For me I try to balance between coping psychologically,having transport(none where you can buy acreage) . I live in my moms house in suburbia with NO car on 500 bucks a month I can't afford shit,Can't go anywhere without a tricky elaborate dance,I hate it.There is a bus but it is inefficient and very limited. Still I walk miles to get ANYWHERE.

Realistically..Buying acreage is OUT of alot of peoples budgets if you are POOR.or working POOR.Understand?..WE are talking POOR not middle class budgets here.Some of us cannot afford to pay doctor bills and have heat..for the winter. Buying land and planting it playing farmer joe is next to impossible for people who cannot afford to plunk down 12,000 bucks or more and go deeper into debt than they already are,And it works if the person has the temperament to handle the isolation from people living out in the boonies is..That's where semi cheap acreage might be available..And if you are UNEDUCATED about land you may very well buy bad ,polluted or otherwise fucked up land you cannot build on.

[Shakespeare]

48. You don't have to live in the country to grow a vegetable garden.

I know you have a reason why you can't do every single thing that people are offering on this thread as help, but you're wrong. If you have so much as a small back porch, you can grow your own vegetables.

The idea that you can't have a garden unless you have acres and acres of land is just about the silliest thing I've ever read.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bperci108]

141. Thanks for further illustrating the point.

I'm sorry your life sucks.

Please get some help.

[undergroundpanther]

144. trying

but what ain't there ain't there.

[prolesunited]

67. You're right

There's absolutely NO solutions except for blaming other people for all of your problems. EVERY single person who has tried to help has gotten slammed by you and your negative attitude. Do you have an excuse for everything and a reason it just won't work for you?

And don't tell me I'm just some rich fascist who doesn't "get it." I did live on government aid for a time and also spent years living in poverty. So I know firsthand how hard it is.

Difference is, you've seemed to have given up and resigned yourself to the role of victim. I didn't.

There are plenty of people who might benefit from these tips, so why not stop trying to silence those who are offering it with your attacks?

[MadHound]

71. Well, you don't need acreage to grow a garden

Hell, like I said, you can grow produce out of pots on a balcony in the middle of Manhattan:shrug: The point is that if you want cheap, healthy produce, you can grow your own.

However be that as it may, to each their own. Frankly I got tired of living in an urban setting. The noise, traffic, pollution, lack of space or privacy was starting to drive me nuts. I had lived out in the country for a couple of years a couple of decades ago, and really wanted to get back there. So, I started on a plan that was over a decade in the making. Bought a trailer, lived in that on the cheap while I save money for a downpayment on a small(700 sq ft) starter house. Lived in that house for ten years, saving money and building equity for ten years until I could afford something out in the country. And I don't know about where you live, but out here in the Midwest, land is fairly cheap. I bought my house and twenty acres for less than $150,000 three years ago. The house is plenty big, 2700 sq ft, and came with three out buildings. I understand that land prices vary nationwide, so your mileage may also vary:shrug: Oh, and I started this plan while I was *poor*, and bought my starter house while I was still *poor*. It really was a matter of time and determination to save. We all have different situations in life, but frankly people can generally improve their lot if they put a little thought, a lot of effort and some time into the matter.

As far as the isolation goes, frankly it is a non-issue. My wife and I both work in a small town ten miles away, and our neighbors are friendly and we stop by each others' place from time to time to shoot the shit. Besides, I'm something of a hermit myself, so being by myself doesn't bother me. In fact I find it quite relaxing to be alone out there, with the wide open sky, the fresh air, and nothing but the sights and sounds of nature all around. Yes, transportation can be expensive if you aren't creative, but my wife carpools and I commute on a little Bajaj scooter that cruises at 55-60mph and gets 100mpg. Both of those help a lot. And since I'm living in an area with few building restrictions, I'm going to soon be installing a woodstove and in a few years a wind turbine. Save money and the enviroment at the same time:shrug:

As far as playing farmer joe goes, if you would check out some alternative farming magazines, like Small Farmer Today, you would find that there is a whole new philosophy about farming, one that is easier on the land, easier on the enviroment, and easier on the wallet. Row crops and traditional farming have been sucked up by Big Ag, but lots of farmers are making good money with niche products like heirloom fruits, mushrooms, organic produce, aquaculture, etc. etc. I'm making a good go of it, and am off to a great start, and the only debt that I carry is the mortage. Sure, lots of the old school farmers are still going deep into debt every year, but there's a new school of thought that is sweeping the farming community, smaller, better, more efficient, and out from under the heel of Big Ag. That is one reason that there is a huge uproar about things like GM foods, since they can wipe out this emerging small farm movement. It seems as though you haven't heard about it, I would suggest that you check it out.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

191. When I was a kid, we lived in a tiny apt and grew fresh veggies.

It's easy to grow your own tomatoes, peppers, herbs, etc even in an apartment. No acreage out in the country required and it's cheaper than buying it.

[mccoyn]

100. Corn on a balcony?

My sister was asking if this was possible just last week. I thought it would be a problem because of the depth of the roots.

How big of a pot did you use?
How much corn did you grow?
How much space did it require?

[MadHound]

248. It is possible

I grew the corn in a metal garbage can that I had punched some holes in the bottom for drainage. I grew two plants in that can. It seemed to have stunted the height, but not the corn production of the plants. Make sure you have at least six feet of space above the garbage can.

[bperci108]

39. I've been there; trust me there are ways....

If transportation is a problem, get together with your neighbors and buy in quantity/bulk. Make one trip with someones pickup and load it up.

Eat seasonal fruits and veggies that are available locally from the Farmer's Market.

Check with local produce suppliers for overstocks and specials you can buy in case quantities.

Learn how to can/dry/preserve the extra.

Check for a co-op or community supported agriculture in your area.

Eat simpler; it's sounds trite, but others in far poorer cultures get by on far less for resources. (We still eat a lot of rice and beans, blackeyed peas, home-made bread, biscuits, and simple soups yet today-a holdover from more dire financial straits years ago...I can still feed a family of four for 5-6 bucks and have leftovers for the freezer.)

Seek out "frugal living publications" and support groups.

Etc...

Use your ingenuity and keep a positive outlook; you can solve these little problems. ;)

[undergroundpanther]

49. LOL

Not all neighbors are so open and freindly as yours seem to be. Not all towns value liberal ideas like co ops and so they don't have any. It's not EZ problem to fix for some of us..Your blindness to the lives of others in other places and situations is appalling..

[bperci108]

58. If your attitude toward your neighbors here on Du...

...is an indication of how you treat your actual friends and neighbors, I'm not surprised if they would be less than friendly.


"...Your blindness to the lives of others in other places and situations is appalling."


What could one add to that little pearl of wisdom... :eyes:

Apparently Karma is already dealing with you.

[librechik]

44. lots of hand work and fewer machines

also, smaller farms mean larger production expenses.

[IdaBriggs]

46. We recently found an Organic Food Coop, and our grocery bills

went down by half. I never knew it was there, and had driven by it for years. Is this something that could be an option for you? (As a way of addressing the problem, as opposed to the discussion point.)

ON EDIT: Here is a listing of 341 of them by state, and city. http://www.purefood.org/coopindex.htm (That's just from a Yahoo search of "organic food coop"!)

[orwell]

95. Thanks for the linkie Ida...

...much obliged!

[Burma Jones]

134. That's how we ate healthy - from the Takoma Park-Silver Spring

COOP. It's one answer......


I also used to shoplift fresh produce.........

[loudestchick]

254. And not a one of them in Missouri? who'd a thought?

[gula]

47. I guess it depends on where you live.

I always look at the flyers and shop accordingly. I have also noticed that fresh produce is way more expensive at the big grocery stores than at the little fruit and veggie ones.
As for the market, one has to be really careful, although they often have stuff really cheap (esp. Sunday late afternoon) that is not at its freshest anymore but is perfectly alright if you process it right away.

Then again, I have lots of options witin easy walking distance.

[undergroundpanther]

51. Where you live

makes a HUGE difference in how many"solutions" you have.Pity where the solutions are in the WEALTHIER areas with landlords that do not accept things like section 8 housing.They think it devalues their property to give poor people a chance..I once lived in a nice place but the landlord was constantly pressuring me to go,for he wanted to raise the rent and section 8's in his apartment complex interfered with his profits..I still miss my old place. It had kick ass transportation and it was a nice place too. Now section8 housing is a rare commodity and next to impossible to get section 8 in nicer areas,as in areas without bullet holes in the walls.The poor are oppressed and that is reality the middle class don't realize how they contribute to this oppression with their pollyanna crap. Life just sucks for me and I feel trapped and hopeless.My neighbors are not warm or friendly they are isolating.they don't go outside except to mow their lawns.. It's sad..And they work,work work to pay pay pay,they are tired and have no time for socializing with neighbors their lives are little islands..sad but true.That's what this neighborhood is like. I hate it's making me crazy.I stay here because it is my moms house rent free. I can't afford rent ANYWHERE I am isolated so Friends to move away with I don't have and I have no transport really so I am fucked.. .

[prolesunited]

72. OK, you live at your mom's rent free

So why can't you tuck away a little of that $500 a month to buy a bike, a scooter or a beater car? My first car was an ancient Impala with a cracked windshield and a dented front end. BUT, it got me to a job every day so that I could move forward and do better.

[undergroundpanther]

143. It goes to eat

topay bills ,electric, heat the house,medicine toilet paper ect.ect.

[gula]

82. That sounds truly horrible.

Mine is not a wealthy area of town, but I have noticed over last few years that there are more and more boutique type stores i.e. expensive specialty foods opening up, as well as expensive restaurants etc.

[Kickoutthejams23]

83. I'm cool with this I've been there.

And so have many of the posters trying to help you. We all get into fixes where life sucks. It's easier to blame everything else for where we are at. And sometimes it is the outside forces that are to blame. I'm not going to tell you how to fix your life. You probably already know the solution. Try to focus on the future instead of being angry at the past. And be friendly to other people in your life. Open up yourself to others and you will be surprised how some of your troubles will start to fade away.

[Midlodemocrat]

249. I don't see much of my neighbors either, but I don't think it makes them

isolating. We live different lives. People in different stations in their lives make different efforts to become a community. When my children were younger, my neighbors and I were thick as thieves. A lot of them have moved, my kids are older, I have different friends, etc.

I'm sure, if asked, they would say the only time they see me in in the car.

[jilln]

59. Subsidies!

Meat and dairy and other things that are terrible for you are heavily subsidized. If you had to pay the real price for meat, it would be something like $20+ per pound. (Trying to find where I read that recently.)

Organic foods are not subsidized and as a niche market, will someday come down... I am waiting anxiously. Til then, there are lists available of the things it is most important to eat organic. For example, strawberries are very thin-skinned and absorb lots of pesticides.

[Snivi Yllom]

86. stay out of the middle

of the store that is

fresh and generally cheaper items are on thee dges of grocery stores

expensive high profit margin items are in the the middle aisles

[mrreowwr_kittty]

88. I'm astonished by some of these responses

Some people are trying to explain the near-impossibility of a poor person getting healthy food in this country. And some of you just don't get it. I realize that poverty can be a matter of perspective but if you think you know what it's like because maybe back in college you had to take the bus to Whole Foods and sometimes ate ramen until the allowance check came in, I'm sorry, but you don't know jack shit. I realize I'm generalizing and I don't mean to sound flippant, but damn!

Try reading the posts and try imagining actually having to live off of $500 or so a month! Stop with the jumping to conclusions based on your own experience and the suggestions for a minute and just imagine.

I might get flamed but I don't give a shit. We're supposed to be the people who look out for the underdog. I can't stand when I log onto DU and come across what appears to be the Ronald Reagan Appreciation Society Welfare Queen Bashing Convention.

[Shakespeare]

89. YOU are jumping to conclusions, too.

I currently have a food budget of $60 a month (sometimes a little less), and I'm able to eat primarily fresh and/or healthy food. It's not easy, and it took a lot of research and ingenuity, but I'm doing it. Don't presume that everybody who's offering help has no way of identifying. A lot of us are in similar situations RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

94. You are on a computer right now

That leads me to conclude 2 things:

1. You have access to a computer.

2. You have the ability to use a computer to apply your ingenuity to a research process.

You are already far ahead of the game in comparison to many, many, poor people in this country. I certainly don't begrudge you that and I'm glad that you are able to acquire healthy food on a limited budget. And allow me to suggest (if you aren't already doing so) that you volunteer your free time in the community to help others benefit from your knowledge and experience in this area. I'm not being sarcastic here. I mean that seriously.

[uppityperson]

98. library computer. All of us here on DU are on computers.

and many of us have been or are in these conditions. We are sharing, giving ideas that might help and are getting slammed for them, told "oh no that won't work" rather than saying thank you for an idea.

[Shakespeare]

109. Yes, I am on a computer right now.

Until about a week ago, I was restricted to using a computer at the library, but hey--that works, too.

And I do volunteer; thanks for the suggestion, but I'm already there.

[prolesunited]

93. That's utter crap!

Yes, we're all clearly limousine liberals and trust fund babies. :eyes:

And, guess what, I *DID* live off $400 a month, with a child, with no child support and no food stamps. I don't have to imagine.

And, I'm certainly not going to apologize for not being in that position now. And no, I didn't win the lottery or marry rich. I worked my fucking ass off to get where I am now. I worked two and three jobs for more than 20 years, often six or seven days a week for many of those years.

You know what I didn't do? I didn't sit around wallowing in self-pity playing the victim wringing my hands about the unfairness of it all because I couldn't get a break. You do whatever you have to do and make your own way.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

113. And there are people who would tell you things like:

"How could you be so irresponsible to bring a child into the world on such a low income?"

"Why didn't you use contraception?"

"Why didn't you have an abortion?"

"Why didn't you put your child up for adoption?"

"Why didn't you get married/stay married/remarry?"

"How could you go off to work and not stay home with your child? You should have gotten public assistance and food stamps." (Dr. Laura Schlessinger said something exactly like that to a listener on her radio show)


I have heard variations of every one of those comments in social settings and in the media about people in your former situation.

[uppityperson]

115. don't forget this one...

"How could you stay home with your child, get rental assistance and food stamps when you could put your child in underfunded poorly staffed daycare and be working?"

[mrreowwr_kittty]

117. Which goes back to

"Why don't you just get yourself a husband with a well-paying job?"

[uppityperson]

118. more bad decisions, I guess.

:sarcasm: so as to not offend those looking for offense (not meaning you catburgler)

[prolesunited]

129. I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life here

but I DID hear all of that crap, some of it from my own family.

I ignored it, dug in my heels and did what I needed to do to make it. And it wasn't easy. Life is full of choices. I decided not to be a victim.

But, that doesn't mean I've turned my back. I continue to advocate things that will make it easier for people to help themselves, like daycare, more educational opportunities enhanced public transportation, etc. However, I have little tolerance for people who sit around wallowing that life didn't hand them what they want.

[undergroundpanther]

140. Stigma hurts

and that is something advice givers don't get some of the time.

[Kickoutthejams23]

111. Hold on it's $500 after rent.

He lives with his mother. A lot of us live on less than $500 a month after rent/mortgage/taxes/insurance/utilities. I'm just saying lets find some perspective here. I have lived on $20 a week for food. (Raman noodles and the occasional frozen burrito from Big Lots)And yes that is a very very unhealthy diet.

[bperci108]

146. No kidding.

"Taking the bus to Whole Foods"?

What utter stupidity. :eyes:

500 bucks per month and living under Mom's roof?

That would've been the lap of luxury in my poverty days.

Try 15 dollars for two people's groceries for two weeks.



Some people don't really want help or suggestions, they want someone to blame.

When they direct their bile at you - Just walk away.

Let them steep in their own hate and bitterness.

[LostinVA]

286. FRom about 23-27, I lived on about $30 a week food

And, that's for EVERYTHING. All three meals, snacks, etc. I started out the Ramen noodle route, but discovered I could have really healthy meals cheaper -- as long as I didn't mind eating alot of the same thing. Vegetable soup can be really cheap to make. Spaghetti with canned diced tomatoes, too. Bean soup. Frozen generic brand vegetables and fruit. I also walked to some local ethnic stores and bought cheap vegetables, etc. Powered milk takes yucky, but it's better than soda. It wasn't great eating, but it was okay. Big Lots is a great suggestions -- they have alot of canned vegetables and fruit.

For someone living poor in an inner city, that's a different story. But, there's still stuff cheaper and healthier than fast food. But, bread and peanut butter, etc. But, if you don't know about nutrition.....

$500 after rent? I will not say anything, I think...

[Matariki]

159. definitely better NOT to say anything

a situation that is so obviously hopeless there is definitely NO solution. I'd give up too.

[Porcupine]

166. I must call BS on these kinds of posts.

There has been post after post after post of people who have had real solutions. Working solutions to living cheap in most every environment in the lower 48 states.

There are posters who have solutions and there are those that deny any solution could exist. I have personally lived of a bag of brown rice, a chicken some dried beans, a dollar jar of salsa and a handfull of herbs a week. Look up a recipe for Congee. Total weekly food cost: $10.

If you are cold an electric mattress pad or blanket will heat you better than heating the house ever will. Remember first nations people lived outside year round without central heat and air. Monthly electric cost: $5

If you are too hot put your feet in a tub of cold water. Cost for a tub $9.

I have met Buddhist monks who live on $100 per month each in the US. That's for ALL needs.

There are websites for super-lightweight camping that have incredible tips on how to survive outdoors with 10 lbs of gear.

If you have medical problems go camp out at your local emergency room until they help you. If they kick you out keep coming back.

If you need anything else. Well people here have offered specific help if they could only get the location of your city.

We're good people trying to help. People who are depressed CANNOT see a positive future. My brother commited suicide earlier this summer after he lost his job; he had $37K in cash in the bank. Get help.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

120. This is a myth, people just need to be educated on how to shop...

The last time I went to Jack in the Crack I spent $12.00 for girlfriend and I. I can get several pounds of pork chops for that at Tom Thumb, through them on the grill, healthy eating. I get organic salad mix at Albertsons for around $3.50, and it lasts for two weeks. Making stew from scratch is easy, you can get a package of those small steak tips for $3.00, just grab some potatoes and a head of cauliflower. No-name brand soups are cheap..no-name brand bread is cheap. Some things I buy name brand like folgers coffee, Coca Cola 2 twelve packs for $5.00, but sugar and trash bags I get the cheapest...

If two people eat out fast food every day your going to spend at least $16.00 a day, 2 weeks = $224. I spend usually between $90-100 every two weeks for two adults and that includes feeding 4.5 cats. And we eat healthy and good, as a matter of fact, there's a pork tenderloin in the fridge defrosting right now.

People choose to eat poorly....I have lived from pay-check to pay-check most of my 20's from past debt and still managed to eat healthy.

[pitohui]

125. it is not a myth, please be honest about fast food prices

where i live you are able to buy a hamburger, a bowl of chili, or many other fast food meals for 99 cents and you have been able to do so for 2 decades -- wendy's, burger king, and rally's are among the chains w. widely advertised programs like this on a regular basis

i have not been able to prepare a small healthy meal for 99 cents a serving for years unless there is an exceptional sale -- and now since katrina it is difficult to prepare a small healthy meal for less than $2 a serving even if all we eat is chicken parts

there is no comparison in prices, no comparison at all

fast food is cheaper and there is no use saying it isn't when a trip down the road quickly tells us all the truth

our 20s when we were able to eat beans and rice for 10 cents a day were a long time ago, the 80s are over, have been a long time

people today have to buy food in today's stores and in today's circumstances, what you and i were able to do in 1982 is quite irrelevant

there are times when a meal for me has been the 99 cent chili or frosty at wendy's, but for the homeless man who can't cook, those days come around a lot more often than for the rest of us

in any case, if you are keeping salad greens for 2 weeks, then you are not eating healthy, they need to be consumed in a day or two, otherwise all you are consuming is water and pesticides, any vitamin content is long gone

[Shakespeare]

136. Even with fast food, it's all about choices.

Wendy's 99 cent menu is awesome--but not the part of it that includes burgers and fries and frostys. You can get a salad (fresh veggies), a cup of chili (protein) or a baked potato (healthy complex carbohydrates) for 99 cents, and all of those are nutritionally sound choices. Burgers and frostys are not.

[snooper2]

150. Okay..

So, you would rather buy 99 cent Wendy's burgers, when you can buy pork chops at 99 cents a pound...your choice...oh, you have to "cook" the pork chops...

[Shakespeare]

151. Wow, did you even read what I wrote?

It should be crystal clear from my other responses in this thread that I dont think fast food should be anybody's first option for a meal. What I was responding to specifically in the last post is that if you MUST eat fast food, you should make the healthiest choices possible (get the salad and baked potato INSTEAD OF the burger and frosty).

My own preference would be to go home and cook the pork chops (or in my case, the preferred meat is chicken thighs), which is a much better economical and nutritional choice.

[bperci108]

148. I'm sorry. That simply isn't true.

"...I have not been able to prepare a small healthy meal for 99 cents a serving for years unless there is an exceptional sale -- and now since katrina it is difficult to prepare a small healthy meal for less than $2 a serving even if all we eat is chicken parts..."

Here's an example:

1 Chicken, Fryer or equivalent pieces-whatever is on sale, about 3-4 lbs. ($4)

Homemade egg noodles made from water, flour, egg, salt (not even $1 for a huge load)

A few spices and peppercorns (pennies)

Water (essentially free)

That makes enough chicken and noodles for 6 people for 2-3 meals.


I can add a few fresh veggies or a simple fruit salad and still be under the price of a Wendy's or McDonald's meal.

Plus, you have leftovers to freeze.

Convenience has as much to do with the problem as industrial agriculture. We Americans have gotten extraordinarily lazy in the past 30 years. Marketing no-cook crap and poisonous junk food to kids and TeeVee watchers (the biggest waste of time in human history; but that's another rant...) only exacerbates the problem. :(

[sandnsea]

152. That's not a healthy meal at all

Flour, eggs and salt are a horrible meal, especially for those who have to watch their cholesterol and salt intake. Processed flour is also awful for people, one of the first things doctors tell you to cut when you reach 30 years or so. Further, I don't know who you are feeding, but a 3 lb chicken wouldn't even have fed my family of 5 for 1 meal, let alone 2 or 3. Not even a chicken made into soup or dumplings. Chicken breasts, rice, fresh vegetables - $6 for chicken, $1.50 for brown rice, $4.50 for celery, carrots, peas, corn, whatever veggies. That'll make 3-4 meals for me and my husband, depending; 2 at the most for my whole family. But it also requires spices and stock or bullion to actually taste good, which is hard to stock up on. And a place to cook it. And that's a cheap meal. Do you know how much fish, pork tenderloin, or other lean meats cost? And none of this is organic, which means it is still full of chemicals and less nutritious, which is what the OP was about to begin with.

I can see where a buck for cup of chili can seem like a wiser choice. Oh, and in reality, a small chili is just about the same as a jr hamburger, the chili has a bit more fiber, but the hamburger has less sodium. Take the dill pickle off the hamburger, and it might well be the better choice for someone with high blood pressure.

Eating healthy in this country takes serious effort and way more than $1 a meal.

[bperci108]

162. You need to learn a little more.

"Flour, eggs and salt are a horrible meal, especially for those who have to watch their cholesterol and salt intake."

Not at all.

Did I say eat these things three times a day?

No.

Fallacy #1

Flour: I can buy whole grain flour, unbleached and unbrominated and un-screwed-around-with. If you want to believe some of the nutrition hype that passes for "science" be my guest. Wheat flour (especially as it is described here), eaten in moderation, is not unhealthy. Anyone who tries to tell you so is peddling snake oil "science".

Eggs: free range eggs are quite common and many people have fresh farm eggs available. If you don't look, you won't find. And eggs are not "high in cholesterol". Homemade noodles only use 1-3 eggs for a whole batch, divide that 6-8 ways and your hysteria over "cholesterol" is unfounded.

Salt: You will die without it. If you have a problem, limit your intake. Most who have a problem with sodium get far more from processed crap than from the little amount needed here.

Fallacy #2

"Further, I don't know who you are feeding, but a 3 lb chicken wouldn't even have fed my family of 5 for 1 meal, let alone 2 or 3."

If that's the case, in the scenario of this recipe, you are eating too much meat.

A 3-4# chicken makes a lot of chicken and noodles. There's plenty of meat in every serving, ask the boys who still eat like farmhands in my house. They don't complain.

"But it also requires spices and stock or bullion to actually taste good, which is hard to stock up on."

Ridiculous.

You can buy giant bottles of spices for the price of those little containers (or less) if you buy in quantity.

And never use bullion; it's nothing but salt. This may be one of the reasons you have salt issues (hidden sodium). You have to read labels and educate yourself.


"Do you know how much fish, pork tenderloin, or other lean meats cost?"

Yep, I do.

Which is why we utilize cheaper cuts and quantity packaging. Unit pricing is the key.

And "Lean" doesn't automatically equal "healthy".


"I can see where a buck for cup of chili can seem like a wiser choice. Oh, and in reality, a small chili is just about the same as a jr hamburger, the chili has a bit more fiber, but the hamburger has less sodium. Take the dill pickle off the hamburger, and it might well be the better choice for someone with high blood pressure."


Maybe for you.

If this is your line of reasoning; then by all means, enjoy your Wendy's Hot-n-Greasy.

I'll pass and pocket the difference, and keep my BP and cholesterol down where they are. I would suggest you go rent Morgan Spurlock's "Supersize Me" for the lowdown on your "better" choice.


"Eating healthy in this country takes serious effort and way more than $1 a meal."

If you want to think so.

It certainly is easier to just stop through Wendy's drive thru than investing a little effort.

Enjoy! ;)

[uppityperson]

167. very good response, thank you.

read labels, eggs aren't horrible in most cases, as is wheat not, moderation is good, less processed food is best, home made is bester. Thanks for the good, well reasoned response.

[bperci108]

174. And for you:

:hug:

Thanks.

[sandnsea]

178. You just upped the cost even more

Whole wheat organic flour is even more expensive, so the price just went up again. Egg noodles are OFF my list of allowable things to eat, I would need to make chicken soup with something else which is why I chose brown rice which is not much more expensive. Most cardiac diets STILL recommend limited eggs, the yolk is full of cholesterol. As to bullion, they make low sodium alternatives.

You can talk about free range and grass fed all you want, but where I live it's more expensive, and there are waiting lists to even get the items. I know where my local farmers and farmers' markets are, the food is not cheaper than sales at the grocery store and it isn't even always better or organic. They don't all take food stamps either.

I feel sad for your children if you're spreading one chicken into 3-4 meals which is what your OP said.

When you're on a cardiac diet, you're on a lean meat or no meat diet, period. It's actually the kind of diet everybody is supposed to be on if they want to eat healthy. There's no cheap cuts of meat about it.

I didn't say fast food is the healthier choice, I said I can see how someone would conclude $1 chili at Wendy's would be a good cost effective choice. When in fact, even a hamburger might be a better choice than the chili. The thread is about why people make that choice. Obviously a healthy homecooked meal with organic foods and no perservatives or chemicals is the healthiest choice. It just isn't always the cheapest choice, not even something as cheap as chicken and rice soup, at least chicken soup that anybody would actually want to eat.

[bperci108]

190. Then Peace be upon you.

Apparently you have your mind made up.

Best of luck to you.

:)

[noamnety]

221. I've done the chicken soup thing

Day 1: roast the chicken. Serve the breasts, maybe drum sticks.
Day 2: boil the leftovers & bones to make stock, pick meat off bones. half the meat gets reserved for day 3. Add potatoes, onions, celery, carrots. I don't know what the boullion talk is about - if you are making chicken soup from scratch, I don't know what you'd use that for. I did the homemade pasta as well, though now I've gotten lazy.
Day 3: leftover chicken goes into crepes with a white sauce and some veggies.

I couldn't even count the number of times my husband and I stretched one little chicken into three meals.

For the vegetarians, you can make a hell of a lot of lentil soup for the price of a little bowl of wendy's chili.

Cabbage is cheap, too. The last one I bought was on sale, it was 14 cents a pound. It's not my favorite food, and it's not always that cheap, but even when it's 40 cents a pound, I can't get a pound of anything healthy at Wendys for 40 cents. Plain oatmeal is better and cheaper than ramen noodles. Homemade cereal from the oats (rub with oil, mix with whatever else you want - wheat germ, raisins, nuts - and roast), is cheaper than the boxed stuff. I might try the yogurt thing suggested in this thread. My dad used to make his own yogurt (with one of those $40 kits), but wrapping it in the oven makes more sense to me. Actually what I ought to do is scavenge an old tire and a sheet of glass, and try making a solar oven out of that. It makes more sense to use that than the oven in the summer anyway.

I ran a lunch program for a while. We had a salad bar for a dollar a plate. Homemade lentil soup or potato soup was 50 cents a bowl. If we had a kind of soup that had meat in it, it was 75 cents a bowl. Homemade lasagna with fresh spinach was 75 cents a bowl, if I remember right. The reason lasagna came in a bowl is that I didn't have time/oven access to make it any way other than a crockpot. I had crockpots from salvation army. At those prices, it was still a sucessful fundraiser. I did that when I was holding down one job where I was hired for more than full time hours, and working a second job on the weekends, full time on Saturdays and Sundays. I think we fed between 50 to 100 people a day (I had some volunteer help).

*Disclaimer: this post is not intended to solve worldwide poverty or depression or housing concerns or health insurance issues. It is only posted to show that it's possible to serve healthy low cost foods without access to a decent oven or a lot of prep time.

[bperci108]

228. Bravo.

"*Disclaimer: this post is not intended to solve worldwide poverty or depression or housing concerns or health insurance issues. It is only posted to show that it's possible to serve healthy low cost foods without access to a decent oven or a lot of prep time."

Now that's funny. :rofl:

Your post is spot on. This was in the spirit of the original line of thinking in the thread

Nevertheless, I'm sure that someone will be along in a moment to whine about the cholesterol or the salt or....oh never mind. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

231. 6 people, 2-3 meals

That's what the post said, not 2 people for a couple days. Chicken breasts make lousy soup stock, may as well use hot water. I'm sure that's why you added chicken legs, you can get away without chicken broth or bullion if you are able to use the whole chicken. A healthy diet that is low on fat would stick to the breasts.

In addition, the very first post, way up above, is talking about organic food which is even more expensive. Some folks may not have every local farmer going organic and charging more, but that is all many of us have access to. It is not cheaper.

Yes there are a few things you can put into a pot and eat, potatoes and onions, lentils and carrots, and the like. It is certainly a choice if you understand the crap that is in fast food. But for someone who doesn't, they might well think beans are beans and opt for the tasty Wendy's chili over lentils and carrots. Since they would both cost about the same. That's been the entire point of this sub-thread. You really can't make many foods from scratch for less than what you can get on the dollar menu. And most of what folks can come up with isn't very appetizing.

[noamnety]

234. I think you misunderstood.

We cooked one chicken. At meal one, we ate the breasts, and sometimes the legs. The REST of the chicken went into the soup.

Homemade lentil soup or chili does not cost the same as Wendy's chili; it's cheaper. That's why at 50 cents a bowl, I was able to still turn a profit. The per serving cost is closer to about 25 cents. It is just as tasty, and is healthier (unless you're going to screw it up with too much salt), even if you don't use organics. Like I said, I ran a lunch program - I knew the costs of what I was serving down to almost the penny.

"what folks can come up with isn't very appetizing" is a loaded statement, and I think goes to the heart of the issue. If you eat healthy, healthier things taste better. If you eat crap, that begins to taste better. Some of the junk food out there has extremely addictive qualities, but once you eliminate it, it starts to taste like crap when you go back to it.

My daughter was very funny about that. For an occasional treat (maybe once every one or two months), we used to get breakfast sausage. At some point I switched to the veggie sausages. She complained bitterly about this. Then one day, out of the blue after having breakfast at someone's house, she came home and announced she was mad at me. I'd ruined her! Apparently she'd gotten so used to the veggie ones that she just really disliked pork sausages. They tasted greasy and disgusting to her after she got used to the others.

I had similar experiences with the lunch program, with kids complaining on the first day that none of their fried fatty foods were there. After a month or so, I went to a parents meeting, and the parents were saying how much the kids loved the new lunches, and we even got a catering job out of it.

A big part of what "is appetizing" has to do with the foods you eat as a child. You can overcome bad habits, but you have to fight against them, if you start out with sugary fried crap instead of lentils and fruit and stuff. In other words, it's not a problem with healthy food itself being less unappetizing than fast food, so much as it's a problem with our culture training people so that their taste runs to fast food and junk.

[uppityperson]

235. but I just want to argue and have the last word.

night all, have fun. (Now I am hungry)

[sandnsea]

237. I understood

I was referring to the post where the chicken was first mentioned, it was claimed one chicken could feed 6 people for 2-3 days. More power to them. The point of the thread is healthy eating, lots of folks are supposed to eat white meat only, harder to make a tasty chicken soup out of breasts only.

Potato and lentil soup are pretty cheap to make, I agree. Not all that much cheaper than 99 cent chili, again, unless you like pretty bland food or you already have the ingredients on hand to make then taste worth eating. Somebody would have to do some pretty fancy cooking to make me want to eat lentils, although it's pretty tough to screw up potato soup.

[NuttyFluffers]

252. bless you dear, you and i need to cook together one day

i'll make the fresh stock (out of the damn chicken bones, 'cuz *nothin'* in *my* kitchen goes to waste), you can make the noodles, and we'll both "exacerbate" our cholesterol and sodium levels on fresh food controlled by our own hands.
:P

me thinks some people protest too much, or need a cooking class. best investment of jr. high summer school time from a junior college i got (learned how to clean like, the entire universe!, with table salt. oh, and how to prevent kitchen fires... oh, and the others learned the basics of cooking, which i mostly knew by then). get me a coleman stove, a pot, a pan, some grease/oil, a knife, and a wooden spoon and i'm good to go, even in the darn woods. oh, and a broom, someone's gotta sweep the campsite's excess dirt away.
:evilgrin:

my favorite thing is stewed tomatoes (especially already seasoned, if i'm feeling extra luxurious). they go in just about every dish i make and cut back on extra work (and money) making my own. worry about the sodium? don't use so much. it's basically there to season the sauce and blend with the onions (because it's the onions, cabbage, and other bulk veggies that you fill the family up on, not the luxury bits, like meat). give me the onions, a head of cabbage, and a few potatoes as well and i'll not only get you a filling meal tonight i'll make you a vegetable stock on the side with the cabbage core, potato peelings, and the tops, bottoms of the onions. two meals or more, depending how i stretch it. mama didn't raise no fool 'round the kitchen!
:P

[LostinVA]

287. Good post -- and you're right

Eating healthy is cheaper than eating non-healthy -- if you live in an area with a town of at ;east 30k or so close by, or a Costco. Most people do.

[uppityperson]

163. My family of 7 used to eat 1 chicken for a meal.

don't need that much meat. Eggs aren't that bad in small quantities, especially if NOT cooked with extra fat.

[sandnsea]

179. He didn't say one meal

He said save the leftovers and spread it out over 2-3 meals. Eggs aren't bad in small quantities, but egg noodles with white flour are not on my approved cardiac diet. That's why I substituted chicken and brown rice soup, although brown rice doesn't cost any more than noodles anyway. The point was the irony of someone blathering about healthy choices suggesting egg noodle soup.

[uppityperson]

181. yes, but I am responding to what you wrote...

"a 3 lb chicken wouldn't even have fed my family of 5 for 1 meal"

[sandnsea]

187. Generally, it doesn't

I could do a one chicken soup for the family, but that's about it. If I were to serve actual pieces of chicken, one wouldn't do the trick at all. Again, the rest of you are welcome to divvy up your chicken any way you like, I've just never known anybody to do that unless they're stretching the food budget until the next payday. I've sure never seen anybody stretch a chicken into 3-4 days by choice.

[uppityperson]

189. and what we are talking about is stretching food budgets.

Many places around the world meat is used as a condiment, not as a main dish. Different than some of us are used to, but it works.

[sandnsea]

204. Not much beats a 99 cent chili

Again, that's what the original sub-thread was about and nobody has really been able to prove that to be true. The best that can come up with is some sort of celery noodle soup with a teaspoon of shredded chicken in it, that's about it.

[Porcupine]

218. Corn tortillas, homemade black beans, salsa, slaw.

Price it out.
2 lbs tortillas $1.60
2 lbs. dried black beans $1.40
1 large cabbage $2.00
1 red onion (splurge) $1.00
2 yellow onions $1.25
1 jar pica-pica salsa $1.00
spices, salt (bulk) $0.50
Vinegar, oil (no mayo) $0.75

total $9.50

If you can't get 15 servings out of that you're really not trying. Üse the slaw as a condiment in the tacos; it adds crunch and interest. A meal is 2 tortillas, a healthy slap of beans in each topped by slaw as condiment. If you eat 3 per meal you will soon weigh over 200 lbs like I do.

[sandnsea]

224. Where I live

I wouldn't eat cabbage or vinegar if I were on my death bed.

In any event,

Where I live you can't buy tortillas by the pound. $1.89 pkg for low fat whole wheat with no additives, 10 to a pkg.

1 lb black beans are $1.29 lb

The onions etc are fine. I make a nice fresh salsa with big chunks of tomatoes and peppers with cilantro etc, runs about $8.00.

$11.00 total, 2 meals for 2 people with leftovers for snacks. $2.00 a serving I'd say. Cheap enough for my budget, not 99 cents a serving.

[bperci108]

230. Hmmm....

"I wouldn't eat cabbage or vinegar if I were on my death bed."

But you will eat that industrial slop that Wendy's calls "chili"?

[sandnsea]

238. I've never eaten it and never said I did

But yeah, I would eat Wendy's chili before I ate cabbage and vinegar... blech. I can't stand it.

[Retrograde]

283. I'm going to regret posting this...

What typically happens to a chicken in my household of 2:

The whole 2.5-3 lb. chicken (roughly $1.80 a pound, but I live in an expensive part of the country) first gets dissected: back, wing tips, gizzard, heart, neck are put in the freezer for eventual chicken stock. Liver is frozen separately, for my semi-annual chicken liver dinner (I watch my cholesterol: my nutritionist says occasional small amounts of "forbidden" foods are ok, just don't make a habit of it), as are the chicken wings themselves. The legs and thighs are removed: 2 legs and 2 thighs each make a dinner for two. The breasts are usually each enough for one dinner. If I bone the breasts, the trimmings go into the stock bag. I tend to use the meat as an ingredient along with various vegetables, sometimes sauces, served over rice, pasta or baked potatoes, whatever we feel like having that day.

When there's enough frozen parts to fill up half my stock pot, I make stock, adding water, carrots, celery if I have it, and onions. This takes about a day of slow simmering and occasional skimming. Then I can it: freezing's easier, but I have more cupboard than freezer space. This yields 10-12 pints of chicken stock, which can be used as the basis for future soups, sauces, gravies, whatever. Note the lack of salt - I reserve seasonings until the final dish.

Now the canning equipment's a capital outlay, but aside from the lids (< .10 each) they can be reused for years - I'd estimate $10/year over a 10-year time frame. My time probably counts for something - this is not a fast process.

As compared to fast food - I live within walking distance of 2 grocery stores, but no fast food places (we had one but it closed). So if I wanted this Wendy's .99 chili, I'd have to add transportation costs as well.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run his or her life: I've been around long enough to know that one person's luxuries can be another's necessities. But I tend to get annoyed when people say "It can't be done" when they mean "I can't do it" or "I don't see why I would want to do it" or "It doesn't fit my own situation so it's not worth doing"

[bananas]

243. "A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage"

He was referring to the pot of stew which was made weekly and shared by the extended family.

[laundry_queen]

180. A 3 lb chicken

lasts our family of 5 3-days of lunches and suppers. OF course we add side dishes, salads, green beans, bread. Then you can use the bones for making chicken broth. A little chicken goes a long way.

[sandnsea]

184. I'm sorry, that is just pathetic

I understand some folks really don't have any money, but I can't even imagine what somebody would do with 1 chicken that would spread it into 3 days of meals. I guess y'all just ration it out, 3 bites at a time. Frankly, I wouldn't even know why you'd bother with it at all.

[uppityperson]

186. chop it up into little pieces, mix with other stuff

A bit goes a long ways, when you use meat as a condiment, not as a main dish.

[sandnsea]

188. It's your choice

I don't know anybody who eats that way and I never have. If it works for you, you're welcome to it I suppose.

[uppityperson]

193. sometimes we do things that we do not do other times.

Good to be able to be flexible, deal with things in moderation. I always wonder if one should deal with moderation in moderation, but then my head hurts.

[sandnsea]

196. That's exactly right

I don't even always have meat in meals. This particular sub-thread started with someone explaining why a person might choose a salad or chili off the Wendy's dollar menu. Sure, a budget can be stretched, but I can tell you it's damned hard for me to fix meal after meal for just $2 a piece. I make heart healthy chili. I can see where someone might think chili is a good alternative to a burger, and hey, it's a buck. Almost nothing at a fast food place is a good choice, but I can still see where someone might think so for the price, that's what I was responding to. Now if someone wants to eat some sort of celery stock with teensy shreds of chicken, call it soup, and say it cost $1 a serving - more power to them. I don't consider that much of a choice and generally speaking a load of crap because almost nobody eats that way in this country.

[bperci108]

203. It works quite well for tens-of-millions of folks in Asia and the Pac. Rim

...and has for centuries.

Perhaps it's time you learned about those who "eat that way"?

Free your mind and your ass will follow, as the slogan used to say.

[sandnsea]

205. Yippee skippy for them

I'll pass and they would too, given a chance to eat better.

[uppityperson]

206. This is where we differ. You say "better", I say "different"

[sandnsea]

211. Funny the choices people make

Celery stock soup isn't most people's first choice for dinner, no matter where they're from.

[uppityperson]

214. Do you crack your eggs on the big end or the little end?

[sandnsea]

216. Some folks can't afford eggs n/t

[uppityperson]

220. or shouldn't eat them, I forgot. Spank me please.

:evilgrin:

[bperci108]

233. I'll take Sandy's eggs.....

....over medium, please. :evilgrin:

[bperci108]

225. Well, I'm from the midwest and it's been mine.

I make a cream of celery soup with curry that cost almost nothing per pot and is astounding. Add a little homemade crusty bread and...well now I'm getting hungry. :)

But hey; you enjoy that Wendy's chili....MMmmmmmm.

BTW - Do you order yours with or without finger?

[sandnsea]

236. The yeast is 4-5 dollars, geez

I've never bought curry, but again, seasonings are expensive, often running several dollars for a small amount. Back to the OP, we're talking organic flour and ingredients - not the .99 cent celery at the supermarket. It's well fine and good to say it's cheap to make this stuff if you have it all on hand, but lots of low income folks don't because they don't even have a home to cook in. They have to choose between a cheap loaf of white bread and $5 of yeast, they're going to choose the crappy bread and use the other $4 for cheap peanut butter and processed bologna.

And for the record, I've never even had Wendy's chili, I didn't say it was a good choice - I said I could see where people would think it was a cost effective choice. I guess you didn't learn empathy when you were going through your struggles or whatever they were.

[Name removed]

241. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

255. It doesn't require $5 of yeast.

One, I don't know where you're buying YOUR yeast, but I've never seen yeast that expensive. Two, you don't even need yeast--you can make a starter from scratch with a little flour and water, and keep it growing indefinitely. It gives the bread better flavor and texture than commercial yeast, and it's FREE.

And it's STILL cheaper to make your own bread, even if you buy more expensive flour. The per-loaf cost is still very low.

[sandnsea]

262. Have you ever had to budget food??

First of all, I just bought a jar of yeast last week or so and it was $6-$7, I don't remember exactly. And sure, a person can make their own sourdough starter, if they can stand the stench and if they like sourdough bread. But for someone with kids and away from home 10-12 hours a day, it might just be more than they can fit into their schedule. Not to mention the time to bake bread. The point is, when you're looking at the cost of yeast and flour, and you've got empty cupboards and a kid that wants to eat, you're going to choose cheap bread, crappy peanut butter and processed bologna. And if you don't know what's IN that stuff, you're going to choose it thinking you're eating healthy food. Look at the debate over just eggs below, where recent articles don't reflect what cardiac hospitals are recommending, and tell me how someone with no time and no internet is supposed to make an informed decision. Tell me what info they would use to decide a 99 cent cup of Wendys chili is a bad idea.

[Shakespeare]

270. I don't think you've ever made your own starter.

If you had, you'd know that there's no "stench." And the bread made from starters is rarely sour in the San Francisco tradition, because the specific bacterium that makes that flavor is unique to the area.

Baking bread doesn't take that much time. Ten minutes to mix the sponge, ten more minutes to knead and punch down, and then into the oven it goes. It's all about priorities and what you're willing to do to have quality food. Even on a tight budget and a limited schedule, you can do this. I'm doing it right now.

[sandnsea]

273. How many kids do you have?

I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about and I don't think you've ever had to work and feed kids, let alone teen-age boys. Does a working mom set the timer to wake up and punch down the dough and then set it again to pop it in the oven and then set it again to take it out?

I have made starters, the smell bothers me as does perfume and potpourri smells, I'm allergic to all of that. From what I understand, lots of people are sensitive to smells from what I hear about cigarette odors.

There are ways to change and improve ones diet, but it can't be done overnight and it certainly can't be done with organic foods for a dollar a serving.

[Shakespeare]

276. If your starter smells, then you aren't doing it correctly.

Period. I keep mine in a mason jar, covered with a layer of cheesecloth so it can breathe. There is no odor whatsoever unless I stick my nose literally into the jar, and then it's only a slight sour smell, and not one that's unpleasant.

A working mom doesn't have to set a timer--what I've done is bake my bread up on a weekend when I'm not at work, tending to the dough between other chores around the house. You're making it sound absurdly complicated and time-consuming, and it simply isn't. It's very, very easy to do, and just doesn't take up that much time.

There are a multitude of ways to improve one's diet, all of which have been listed on this thread--everything from buying only produce in season (it's cheaper that way), to growing your own food and putting by, to rather brilliant ways to stretch out servings in a healthy, nutritious way. And you've tried--unsuccessfully, I might add--to argue with every single one of them. You apparently have issues that have nothing to do with what's been said in this thread, and it shows.

[sandnsea]

277. None for a dollar a serving

And none that are exclusively organic foods, which again, is the point of the thread. How many loaves of bread do you back on the week-end? And lucky you, you don't have a second job because you could only get part-time work or split shifts. Some people don't have a week-end. You're assuming everybody is just like you and it's not fair.

[Shakespeare]

278. The OP was not exclusively about organic foods.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read it. It was a post about why healthy food in general costs more, and scores of people have responded with helpful ways to have a healthy diet while keeping costs down. I'll say this one more time--organic foods is not the point of this thread. Got that now?

I'm not at all assuming everybody is just like me, which is why I--and others--have offered many alternatives. None of us have offered a one-size-fits-all solution, but rather several solutions that can be applied in whichever way works best for you.

[uppityperson]

282. Here is what I did, as a working mom.

I punched down the dough in the evening, then baked it before bed. Now, with a teenage boy, HE gets to punch it down and bake it, and he gets to knead it too. Love that teen energy.

Or course diet can't be totally changed overnight and of course store "organic" food costs more than regular. That is not what we are saying. We are sharing ideas on changes to make gradually and you just keep saying they are impossible.

[uppityperson]

281. How many loaves of bread can be made with that large jar yeast?

1 packette, needed for 2 loaves of bread, isn't $6-7. You can buy a big bunch like that, keep it in your fridge, make bread for many months out of it. This decreases the cost to maybe 25 cent/loaf.

Here is a link on eggs in a diet. http://www.healthyeatingclub.org/info/articles/diets-foods/eggs.htm

...Eggs and heart disease

Researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health who followed a large group of nurses (about 80,000) for 14 years found that there was no association between weekly egg consumption and coronary heart disease or stroke. These same investigators also examined this egg/cardiovascular disease relationship in more than 37,000 male health professionals followed for 8 years. Again there was not association between egg consumption and cardiovascular disease. Japan and France have low rates of death from heart disease compared with most other developed countries and both populations are high consumers of eggs.

(Reference: Hu FB, Stampfer MJ, Rimm EB et al. JAMA 1999; 281: 1387-1394)

[bperci108]

213. So your purpose here....

...is just to tell everyone how full of shit they are?


How productive. :dunce:

[sandnsea]

215. Not everybody n/t

[laundry_queen]

195. EXACTLY, thanks.

When we have roast chicken, we also have potatoes, gravy, biscuits, 2 kinds of veggies (usually carrots, broccoli, cauliflower etc) and a salad. For lunch, shredded chicken, mixed with cut up celery, pickles, mustard on bread, with sliced cukes as a side. We have a wonderful recipe for 'turkey fried rice' that works wonderfully with left over chicken (basically, chicken, cooked rice, onions, mushrooms, celery (And any other veggies you want) all mixed with an egg or 2 and cooked in a frying pan (no oil needed for no stick). And then, chicken soup, boil the bones for a few hours, strain them out, pick off the meat by hand and put back in the strained broth. Add carrots, celery, potatoes, beets, whatever. It does NOT take a lot of meat for all these. Now maybe you have 3 teenage boys, so I could understand why that much chicken didn't last, but really, it's not that hard to make it stretch.
BTW not saying all my choices are 'super cheap' just good at making the meat last longer.
I did learn some tricks from my mom who learned them from my grandmother who raised 8 kids on a garden, chickens and wild berries. Now you want to talk poor....

[sandnsea]

198. For a dollar a serving??

That's what this particular sub-thread was about, why people choose $1 item at Wendy's and that it isn't easy to make very many meals at that low of a price.

And yes, I did have 3 teenage boys as a matter of fact. Now I pretty much do just enough for a meal so that we aren't tempted to have any more than is allowed on our diet.

[laundry_queen]

271. $1 a serving

No, everything I listed is not $1 a serving. I didn't realize I had to stick to that particular theme in this subthread.
I did cook something last night though that was less than that per serving.
Having 3 teenage boys is definitely different than me having 3 school age girls. Your serving size is probably easily twice mine.
Keep in mind though I live in a northern community in Canada, my prices are also probably double yours.

[bperci108]

197. This is the problem:

"...but I can't even imagine ..."

"...Frankly, I wouldn't even know why you'd bother..."

When your mind is already made up, well in advance of the presentation of a different reality than your own experience, you aren't receptive to any new ideas.

Anyone can be negative and a nay-sayer; but to what purpose?

And for the record, I'm no longer poor and we don't have to struggle. But the hard earned knowledge we got when we were comes in quite handy.

And it helps keep the wolf from the door now, too. ;)

[sandnsea]

199. Oh I've had that experience, thank you very much

Which is why I call bullshit on it. Nobody eats that way by choice, and you pretty much just proved my hunch to be true.

[bperci108]

207. You are entitled to your opinion.

It's easy to "call bullshit on it" when you are completely ignorant of me, my personal situation and the facts.

But don't let that stop you...enjoy. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

210. You said you no longer struggle

I'm just going by your own words, you no longer struggle and you're referring to a time when you did. It's clear enough.

[bperci108]

217. And our eating habits...

...really haven't changed that much. I try to keep it simple.

[Matariki]

227. Just for the record - I eat that way by choice

really. i thought that recipe sounded good. I occasionally cook a small chicken and it lasts me a week, til i'm down to chicken salad and soup. I like it, it's good eating.

[sandnsea]

239. What is it about 6 people that nobody undersands

6 people, 2-3 days, that's what the guy said. That's what I objected to. Yeah a chicken would last me a long time too, but guess what, I can only eat chicken breasts. Price them lately?? Try to make soup out of them?

[Matariki]

242. i was responding to you saying no one eats that way by choice

i prefer to eat small amounts of meat was what i meant. but i understand what you are saying - that 6 people stretching a chicken for a few day's meals might be pretty thin on the meat.

[sandnsea]

244. That's the choice I meant

Not one or two people stretching a chicken over a few days, frankly that wouldn't take much effort at all. All I ever said is I can see where someone would think a cup of chili at Wendys for 99 cents would be a cost effective choice, and I stand by that. Most folks don't even know that they should be concerned about the quality of food they're eating and all the additives that make processed food nearly worthless. I don't blame them for being tricked into buying that 99 cent chili at all.

[Shakespeare]

256. btw, you keep referring to a very specialized, medically prescribed diet

And it has zero relevance to this thread; you're using it as a red herring to take swipes at other posters' suggestions, and it's absurd. Most people are not restricted to eating only white meat.

[sandnsea]

259. Everyone should eat a heart healthy diet

Which is simply lower fat, sugar and sodium than the average US diet. That's what we're talking about in this thread, a healthy diet - a healthy organic diet is what the OP said. It's not cheap and requires a lot more effort than most people have any clue of. It sure requires a lot more effort than cheap food from scratch, which is all some of these people seem to think is required for a healthy diet.

[Shakespeare]

260. You're confusing a healthy diet with a RESTRICTED diet.

And there's a universe of difference between the two. So, yes, all your white-meat-only, no-eggs rambling is still irrelevant.

[sandnsea]

263. No I'm not

That's what people are supposed to eat, it's what is recommended to everybody that people just take more seriously when their cholesterol starts rising. You tell me what medical professional tells their patient to go ahead and eat a fatty red meat diet. If you had a doctor who said that, would you keep going to her? I wouldn't.

[Shakespeare]

268. Yes, you most certainly are.

Unless there are specific health risks--which you've made it clear you do--a person does NOT have to limit themselves as severely as you suggest. And show me where--ANYWHERE--I said a person should eat a "fatty red meat diet."

'Cause ya know what? I didn't say that, and you know I didn't say that.

[sandnsea]

272. Low fat, low sugar is the recommended diet

Whole grain and complex carbs, 5-8 fruits & veg a day, small lean meat, limited fats and sugar. That's the recommended diet for EVERYBODY. If you aren't eating a fatty red meat diet, you're eating a lean white meat OR no meat diet. Hello??

In addition, the OP was also about truly nutritious food, organic. No chemicals, ripe on the vine, real nutrition. People on this thread also confuse farm raised with organic, it's not the same thing. Canned vegetables are loaded with sodium, which was also recommended to low income people by someone in this thread.

A lot of people really have no clue what healthy nutrtitious food is and are simply suggesting replacing fast food with store bought food and that isn't nearly enough and certainly isn't what the original poster was referring to.

You want to talk about a restricted diet, let me figure in my husband's diabetes, high blood pressure and my thyroid problem for you. That's a ton of fun to figure out. And lose weight on top of it.

[Shakespeare]

274. I'm sorry you have so many problems that force you to restrict your diet.

But a healthy diet should also include good fats (like olive oil) and lean red meats in moderation. You're seeing this in black and white terms that don't really apply.

And while organic is better than farm-raised with pesticides, locally grown fresh produce, even if not organic, is STILL better than what you buy in the supermarket, because you have access to more varieties, and the nutrients are more intense because the food hasn't undergone cold storage or irradiation. You do the best you can for where you live, and THAT is what the other posters were saying. That's why so many of us have encouraged others to grow as much of their own food as possible.

You grossly misrepresent what many on these thread have had to say, and that's why you're now getting spirited argument from me. It's extremely disengenuous.

[Name removed]

275. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bling bling]

183. Eggs aren't bad. Even the yolk is ok.

The cholesterol found in food is nothing compared to the cholesterol your body manufactures from fats. Key is to limit saturated fats and stay completely away from transfats. Increase your poly and mono fats (from peanuts or almonds, for example). I've recently been studying high cholesterol because my husband found out his levels are too high. They used to say limit your yolks per week to just a couple but now they're starting to understand that it doesn't hurt to eat more than that. Eggs are very good, healthy food.

[sandnsea]

185. Every diet says to limit them

That's what my understanding was too, until I actually started reading different diets from major heart hospitals around the country. Every single one still advises people to limit eggs or to use one full egg with one or two whites. I was surprised to find that to be true, but that's what it is. You're sure welcome to eat any way you like.

[Matariki]

232. Not so

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060506/food.asp

new research on eggs is that the problem is cooking them in lots of fat. read "diet for a small planet" - eggs are the perfect protein.

[sandnsea]

240. Mayo Clinic

Choose:
Egg whites or egg substitutes

Avoid:
Egg yolks

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/heart-healthy-diet/NU00196

Every single medical provider recommends limiting egg yolk consumption.

[bperci108]

245. And there are some MD's who still treat ulcers with antacids....

...even though it has been discredited and replaced with an alternate therapy.

"Every single medical provider recommends limiting egg yolk consumption."

"Every single one", eh?

Bullshit.

Logically impossible to prove and you know it.

But choose whichever overpaid meat magician you prefer as your guide. Just don't assume the advice you receive is the end-all-be-all.

Or do if enless disputation is your thing. ;)


(Cliff Clavin, is that you?)

[sandnsea]

246. You know more than the Mayo Clinic???

Wow. Yes, every single medical clinic diet that I have checked STILL recommends avoiding egg yolks. I don't know where this "conventional wisdom" about eggs is coming from, I was as shocked as anybody to discover that the best hospitals in the country have not significantly changed their recommendations. But it's right there in all these diets. Even the Heart Association says no more than 1 egg a day and that's only if you seriously restrict fat and cholesterol in the rest of your diet. I didn't make this up, it's right there for anybody who wants to look it up for themselves.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3006030

[mrreowwr_kittty]

219. Especially if you are working 12 hours a day

You don't even have to be poor to be forced by schedule and circumstance to grab food on the go. Between my job and political activities I can't tell you how many meals I consume in my car. :blush: I live in a city with little mass transit and hideous commute times. If it's challenging for me to eat healthily, I can only imagine what it's like for those poor souls I see on the side of the road waiting in the hot sun for spotty bus service to take them to crappy low-paying jobs.

[Beausoir]

130. Do you have a car?

[conflictgirl]

226. I don't think the OP was talking about the same kind of food

If you want food that hasn't been significantly adulterated, and isn't filled with chemicals and artificial flavors and shitloads of sodium, it IS more expensive. Especially if you live in an area that doesn't have prevalent access to such foods. I don't even live in an inner city but I'm 80 miles from the nearest Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, and there aren't any co-ops around here either.

I think healthy food is often unaffordable too, but I don't mean canned soups and Coca-Cola. The cheap stuff at the grocery store is almost always processed food, at least around here. Vegetables are not too unreasonably priced but the organic ones are expensive. I do prefer organic because I know almost as much about the food industry as is possible for a consumer and what's really going on with it is awful. We don't eat a lot of meat because we don't have any possibility of affording organic meat on our current budget and the healthier cuts of meat don't go on sale very often. Which goes back to the OP again, or at least my interpretation of it: if you want boneless skinless chicken breast, it's going to be pretty good for you in terms of fat and hormones aren't allowed, but it's going to cost close to $10 for a package that will feed a family of four for one meal unless you use it as an ingredient in several dishes like enchiladas or casseroles. Whereas on a good sale you can get the bottom-of-the-barrel plain 20% fat hamburger for close to $1 a pound. What's cheaper - a half-gallon of store-brand "orange drink" that contains no juice, or a half-gallon of not-from-concentrate orange juice? Even look at junk foods - what's cheaper, the store-brand ice cream that contains all kinds of weird thickeners and stabilizers, or Breyer's with only like 7 ingredients? We won't even go there in terms of ice cream made with organic milk...

This isn't really even a rich vs. poor issue, though that creeps into a lot of these threads anyway. Fact of the matter is that it IS more expensive, in general, to purchase the healthiest food, especially if you believe that organic food is the healthiest. Careful budgeting and close watching of sales, plus the ability to be creative with recipes, make it possible for many people to avoid the super-craptastic food. But to get the healthiest stuff? Hell yeah, that's going to cost extra.

[Emit]

279. Your organic salad mix at Albertsons lasts for two weeks?!

Jeesh, my salad greens never last that long, with the exception of a large pack of spinach we buy occasionally from Costco that lasts longer because we eat it fresh first and when it starts to wilt and get a little slimey, we cook it.

[Nutmegger]

142. "Healthy food" is considered a luxury.

With that said, you need to know where to shop. For fruits and such, there's a great local farmer's market not to far away. The prices are so much more reasonable than the grocery stores.

[NotGivingUp]

147. 'They' have effectively gained control of all that sustains life....

nutritious food, clean water, and clean air. We should've stayed with the land and what was true. We have been further and further removed from the ability to be in control of the basics of life. Instead we are left with being corporate slaves.

[Raydawg1234]

149. The cost of fuel can effect everything. Fresh produce must be trucked in,

as it cannot sit in a warehouse.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emcguffie]

158. So it becomes elite.

So fewer people can afford it.

We have been reverting to the Gilded Age, when everything good was for the very tiptop rich guys, and everybody else was a peasant, meant to make life easy for those folks.

I just can't figure out why anyone would really WANT this. Can't they see where it had to end up?

[bling bling]

160. We started eating healthier a couple of months ago.

Here's some of the changes we've made.

Raison Bran (or any cereal with high fiber) instead of Fruit Loops.
Whole wheat bread instead of white bread.
Whole wheat flour.
Whole wheat spaghetti.
Substitute chicken for ground beef in tacos.
Turkey bacon.
Frozen veggies steamed in the microwave instead of mashed potatoes
Fresh fruit instead of chocolate chip cookies.
Nonfat milk.
Peanuts and raisons mixed together for a snack.
Pretzels
Hellman's Light mayonnaise instead of regular
Canola Oil and Olive Oil instead of Vegetable Oil.
Brown rice instead of white rice.
Fish instead of beef.
Turkey and roast beef lunchmeat instead of salami and bologna.

I'm not sure if we spend more or not now. Probably a little more because things like fish are more expensive than ground beef. I have to go to the store a lot more often too now that I want to have fresh fruit in the house at all times.

I don't know how organic or whatever all the food is that we eat. I shop at a regular grocery store and Trader Joe's. The prices seem comparable for the most part, but Trader Joe's sometimes has less quantity in a package. But Trader Joe's food is organically grown and tastes better, IMO.

[pooja]

164. If you have a home, grow a garden and learn how to can.

It is ok to teach your children and yourself that seasons are seasons. You need to prepare meals around the seasons. Also, look into community gardening or a local farmer. Look for local meat markets, buy your fish off the boat at the dock if you live near the ocean. Best bet is to find your own nearby farmers (you eliminate the middle man and get it for cheaper). Now if you live in the country (not very likely) buy a hen (fresh eggs). You don't always need meat.. Eggs have enough protein to last you. We need to start living a little bit behind the times. We need to find our beginnings and learn to reap what we sow. Also, it is so easy to maintain an herb garden. They take up so little space and can be grown inside (cuts down on expensive herbs, smells great, and is grown by you.)

[bperci108]

169. Allow me to say "amen", Pooja...

I can't believe how this thread has irritated me so....

Apparently it's easier to carp and complain and nay-say in an online forum than to actually do something to allieviate your problem.

It's one of the reasons I walk away from DU for many days at a time.

Sorry - Rant mode: OFF. :rant:

Back to your post: You are correct; Voluntary Simplicity and old technology works. Our grandparents and great-grandparents posessed a lot of common sense and experience that we will need again. I hope we were paying attention.

[pooja]

171. Thank God someone invented the internet... and thru the tubes

you can gain knowledge of the oldtimes and do for yourself. Has anyone actually ever had homemade mayo.... Most wouldn't even know the difference between the substance they sell you in the store and actual homemade.

[uppityperson]

173. internets.

thank you too. Homemade mustard is better than store bought too.

[pooja]

175. by far... also homemade pickles, relishes, and fruit jams.

also, homemade pies, butter, and whipped cream. It takes time and work.. but if you develop a small community devoted to helping one another make these things.. you will have plenty of time... Down to Walmart... I hate using them for cheap processed foods. I have to admit, I don't make enough time doing these things... but growing up in the country and knowing I have dibs on my grandma's recipes as inheritance.

[bperci108]

223. Speaking of pickles...

...ever had Kakduki?

It's Korean hot, fermented daikon.

(I always tell pickle fanatics about it.)

It's super simple to make, smells kinda bad and is wonderful. :woohoo:

When daikon is in season, it's dirt cheap at any asian market. And it keeps a loooong time.


(Sorry to jump in here; I had to get away from the BS above; it was getting toxic to the psyche.)

[bperci108]

177. Yeah....

...I hate the stuff out of the jar. One of those little ones will expire before I use it all.

Homemade on the other hand... especially used in homemade Remoulade sauce. :wow:


And yes, I use a raw egg. :evilgrin:

[Selatius]

222. If war with Iran breaks out, your advice would save countless lives

The oil shock would disrupt the food distribution networks in the US. Trucks that ship goods and food every day across America would be in trouble during a gas shortage or even an embargo in the aftermath of the outbreak of war.

[upi402]

165. cheaper than medicine

good value all in all

[jerry611]

194. Healthy food is not fast enough

People these days don't have time to make a breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The average household has both parents working, and the kids are just as much on the go...

The traditional family dinner is disappearing from American culture.

And since we live in such a fast-paced society, we have to cook fast, eat fast, and eat cheap. And guess what kind of food fits that description???

[bling bling]

202. Agreed. But I found a way around that.

Cook and Freeze!

Here's some really fast food:

Breakfast:
Whole wheat pancakes (cook and freeze, then microwave to reheat)
Turkey Bacon (cook on skillet for like 5 minutes -- or cook and freeze then microwave to reheat)
Juice

or

Cereal w/ Banana
Toast
Juice

Lunch:
Turkey Sandwich on whole wheat bread (lunchmeat can be frozen in individual servings)
Apple
Raw Carrots
Low-fat chips (chips freeze wonderfully and thaw out in 2 seconds)
Water

or

Sandwich
Soup (soup can be made ahead of time and then frozen)

Dinner:
Chicken Tacos (chicken can be cooked ahead and frozen)
Refried Beans
Brown or Spanish Rice
Fruit

or

BBQ Chicken Sandwich on whole wheat bun
Hot mixed vegetables (frozen and then microwaved to heat)
Fruit of some sort

or

Chicken Fried Rice with Vegetables and Scrambled Egg (all cooked and frozen into individual serving dishes. Put in refrigerator the night before to thaw out and then microwave to reheat).

Other things you can freeze:
Spaghetti
Lasagna
Pretty much everything.

[conflictgirl]

229. You danced around something there about "the true cost of food"

We expect food to be cheap today. Our grocery budgets have adjusted accordingly, and therefore most of us freak out about paying more for groceries. Myself included - we're on a low income right now and can't really afford to spend more on food than we are. But the truth of the matter is that the groceries most of us buy in the store AREN'T really that cheap. It might say it's only two dollars for that bottle of ketchup for example, but the only way to keep the price that low is through subsidies (for the high-fructose corn syrup it contains), often by using illegal immigrant labor for harvesting the tomatoes that went into the ketchup, by paying the workers in the factory where they produce the ketchup far less than a living wage, by paying the employees in the stores where the ketchup is sold far less than a living wage, etc. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the environmental costs of farming in a manner intended to maximize yield and profit rather than conserving the land to make sure it will still be viable in future generations, or the environmental and health costs of spraying heavy amounts of pesticides on the crops - also to yield higher profits.

The current business climate in this country, which is pretty evident to almost anyone, is that companies now need to reap greater profits every year. But how can that happen? Isn't there really only so much ketchup we really need in a year, for example? The only way the companies can continue to make greater profits every year is through cutting corners wherever possible in the production process. We all lose when that happens. And never lose sight of the fact that limitless growth is simply not possible. It defies natural law.

Prices stay down because that's what our society has collectively decided things are "worth" - but most of us never think about the ways in which cheap food (and countless other cheap consumer goods, from clothing to electronics) is predicated on the existence of a hidden cost somewhere else.

[Lorien]

253. Subsidies. But regardless, it IS possible to have a healthy diet on a

tight budget.

Corn products have been subsidized by the government since Nixon's administration; that's why a bottle of Coke can cost less than a bottle of water (filled with high fructose corn syrup, which is some seriously nasty stuff).

But regardless, a very healthy diet can be maintained on a budget-you just have to be willing to do away with convenience foods.I'm on a very tight budget and eat mostly organic whole foods, but my weekly grocery costs now are the same as they were when I was very ill and eating the standard American diet. I have fibromyalgia and CFS, so processed foods are right out. I'm hypoglycemic, so all sweeteners and simple carbs are out too. By cutting out processed foods, snacks, sodas, dessert, and fast food I've eliminated the "empty calories" from my diet that were making me ill and overweight. I only buy organic, nutritionally dense foods now-and yes, it's a pain in the ass to prepare all my own meals and I'm always short on time-but my health and budget are worth it. I consider it time well spent; I can't afford health care, which is a hell of a lot more expensive than my weekly organic food costs.

[warrens]

257. From scratch is not more expensive

If you compare nutrition and the actual ingredients, you'll always do better to buy and cook from scratch. You have to find the places that specialize in those ingredients, however. Small grocery stores have to mark up their fresh food a lot because it has a lower sales velocity than do frozen and prepared products.

Search out farmers markets and greengrocers that specialize in produce. We have a place here in the middle of Chicago called Stanley's that sells farm-fresh produce at rock-bottom prices.

As for organic, the production costs are enormous. Prices are coming down slowly as more land goes into production, but it takes three years to get land designated organic. Three years of fallow, so it makes no money for those three years. That makes feed for animals very expensive; as more land comes into production, prices go down. Eventually, there will only be a 15 percent premium or so.

[gollygee]

258. It depends on whether you have a decent grocery store within walking

walking distance.

Unfortunately many poor people don't have cars and don't have many (if any) choices as to where they shop.

Also, the working poor sometimes are working enough where they have trouble getting time to cook from scratch. Cooking from scratch is healthy, but time-intensive.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

261. General observation:

It's very hard to read this thread without becoming hungry.

I'll give two thumbs up to the GD mods for being able to keep civility here without suddenly finding themselves desiring some sort of food described in this thread.

[uppityperson]

284. Indeed, I have had a snack, breakfast and lunch while reading this.

[otohara]

266. Buying Bulk Helps, Washing Regular Veges, and

when it comes to yogurt, buy the large container of plain Stonyfield or your favorite brand and add your own fruit. I was buying this small box of granola at one of our cheaper health food stores, then realized it was sold in bulk at my local Sunflower at half price.

I use Bi-O-Kleen Concentrated Produce Wash http://www.bi-o-kleen.com/produce.htm
instead of buying Organic all the time.

When it comes to beef, chicken, milk products, I do buy natural - because I am prone to hormonal imbalances and don't want to be eating what ever it is they inject into animals.

The best thing you can do for healthy eating is to stop eating processed foods and added sugars, especially corn syrup. Whole foods is best -

[datasuspect]

269. shhhhh! don't tell health food nuts

that many of the small companies that make this stuff are bankrolled by the big food connglomerates.

[Codeine]

280. Nutritionally

organic and non-organic produce work out the same. Organic is better for the environment, but the food ends up the same. Wash off the pesticides and it's all the same.

[NotGivingUp]

288. yeah right

[uppityperson]

289. some pesticides don't wash off.

[uppityperson]

290. People want all food all the time, regardless of season also

Used to be that you didn't get (fruit/veg) out of season since not so much was shipped around. Eating in season helps a bit, but I think people have gotten spoiled, want it all whenever, and growers cater to this. Hence bigger huger farms, more shipping, less quality in taste/more keeping qualities. It is annoying, must be careful shopping and eating.

[Retrograde]

291. Let George Orwell have the last word

"The miner's family spend only tenpence a week on green vegetables
and tenpence half-penny on milk (remember that one of them is a child less
than three years old), and nothing on fruit; but they spend one and nine on
sugar (about eight pounds of sugar, that is) and a shilling on tea. The
half-crown spent on meat might represent a small joint and the materials
for a stew; probably as often as not it would represent four or five tins
of bully beef. The basis of their diet, therefore, is white bread and
margarine, corned beef, sugared tea, and potatoes--an appalling diet.
Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like
oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter
to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it
would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do
such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on
brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less
money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A
millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an
unemployed man doesn't. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of
the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say
when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to
eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is
always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let's have three pennorth
of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and
we'll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are
at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don't nourish you
to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than
brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery
that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the
English-man's opium. A cup of tea or even an aspirin is much better as a
temporary stimulant than a crust of brown bread."

from The Road to Wigan Pier, ch. 6 <1937>

Orwell was writing about unemployed miners in northern England in the 30s, but IMHO this explains just as well why people in the US eat more fast food than healthy food.

[riderinthestorm]

292. I went to Whole Foods yesterday.

My husband had an eye appointment nearby so I decided to go into town to the Whole
Foods while he was getting his prescription updated.

As usual I was wowed by the selection and spent way more than I should have but I am usually stocking up on stuff that we love from that store: wierd stuff like Annie Chun's Shitaake Mushroom Sauce etc.

I walk through the bread aisle and they have the most delicious looking breads and I decide to buy a loaf of whole wheat to compare it to my own homemade (I usually make a loaf every day - I use a bread machine, a luxury I thank my stars for daily). We go through a LOT of bread in our household between my immediate family, working students, staff, and guests so I figured it would be gone in a day max.

That loaf was moldy this afternoon! Less than 24 hours later! I couldn't believe it. $2.50/loaf and the only taste of it was some toast that my husband ate this morning: it was already off by lunchtime when everyone poured in for lunch. :mad:

Not only that but the strawberries I bought were soft and smooshy by this afternoon as well. WTF???!!!!

What if I were a person on a limited income who was trying to eat healthier, who tried to shop at a store like Whole Foods or Trader Joes only to discover that their dollars were wasted on rotten food??? I'd go back so fast to the food with preservatives in it, it would make your head spin. And if I didn't have a car and had to rely upon walking or public trans to get there - damn if I would waste that effort twice when every minute is a struggle between getting the daily essentials done: laundry at the laundry mat (remember most poor folks don't have those machines in their house), kids' needs, getting to and from work, cleaning the house, paying bills etc. etc.

There is something wrong in our food delivery/grocery system that is hijacking our dollars. I have the space, resources, time and energy to grow and prepare healthy foods but I can see how forces conspire to keep those down on their luck unhealthy.