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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:35 PM
Original message
Cuban doctors defect, speak out
Edited on Thu Aug-24-06 02:07 PM by Bacchus39
CARTAGENA, Colombia - Carlos Rodríguez and his girlfriend, Johan Mary Jiménez, had little hope of leaving Cuba. They were both physicians, her father was a known dissident, and Rodríguez himself was an outspoken critic of the system.

Still, in May 2004, a Cuban government seemingly desperate to satisfy Venezuela's need for doctors slotted the two into Misión Barrio Adentro, President Hugo Chávez's campaign to provide healthcare for his country's poorest people.

They fled to Colombia seven months later and obtained political asylum. They are now scratching out a living doing odd jobs near this Caribbean city -- and offering insights into the Cuban doctors program in Venezuela.

Since taking power in 1999, Chávez has increased trade with Cuba and sought to benefit from its expertise in health, education and defense. Barrio Adentro, or ''Inside the Neighborhoods,'' was one of several programs Chávez set up with the help of Cubans, and an estimated 20,000 Cuban medical personnel are working in Venezuela.

Although it was promoted as a way to help poor people who had minor illnesses, aches, pains and infections, Rodríguez and Jiménez said their Cuban supervisor made it clear that they also had to campaign for Chávez in the lead up to a 2004 recall referendum,<{/b> which Chávez won handily.

''The idea is good,'' Rodríguez said of the mission. ``But that wasn't what the mission was for. The coordinator told us that our job was to keep Chávez in power.''



http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/venezuela/15274916.htm

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. there were cubans who did and said the same thing
when castro took over.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Somehow their story doesn't sound totally true.....
it sure reeks of the propaganda coming from the US. Why would two doctors have to be scratching out a living doing odd jobs, I'm sure Columbia could use some doctors.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. because they are part of the Castro/Chavez propaganda
their studies in Cuba may not automatically tranfer to Colombia just like doctors in the US who studied overseas. Colombia may actually have stricter requirements so that their own doctors aren't undercut by others.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It's the Miami Herald.


"We'll print anything for you, Junior!"

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. It appears to be an oil for medical care deal
....In the past, Chávez has alluded to the medical program as a swap of Cuba's human resources for Venezuela's natural resources -- mostly oil -- and part of his campaign to strengthen relations with Latin American nations and distance them from the United States.

Cuba, for instance, receives upwards of 90,000 barrels a day of crude oil from Venezuela on easy repayment terms. Most nations that host Cuban medical personnel also make per-doctor cash payments directly to the Cuban government, but it's not clear whether Venezuela is making such payments or writing off the amounts against its oil deliveries.

Neither Venezuela nor Cuba has provided any public accounting of the costs for their Cuban doctors arrangement, but a recent Bush administration report estimated Venezuelan energy subsidies to Cuba at $1 billion.

For Rodríguez and Jiménez, the best part of their deployment to Venezuela was that it offered them an escape hatch.

They met with a Colombian friend of another doctor, who arranged for them to cross the Colombian border in a car for about $50. They left in the early morning hours of Dec. 11. By noon, they were in Cartagena.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. yes, that it the program
n/t
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Translation
"Do you know how much money I could be making outside Cuba?"

Hell, Castro has turned into just another totalitarian dictator, we all know that. However, the healthcare system in Cuba is a miracle of doing more with less, a real pattern for the rest of the third world to follow.

I can't believe these people would give up a position helping people who need it just to make some sort of point about Castro. I suggest that money has more to do with it than political piety does.

Putting up posters was sufficient. I doubt anyone would have complained had they not done more.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I guess, if they completely lacked principles
and had no problem towing the line for Chavez and Castro.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. "...scratching out a living doing odd jobs near this Caribbean city...."
Uh-huh.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Cartagena is not rich, you've obviously never been there
they probably are not allowed to practice medicine in Colombia either simply by showing up at the doorstep.
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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hmmmm...
We should expect the Miami ("Cuba Libre") Herald to print something fair & balanced about Castro? Yeah, and Bill O'Reilly is going on the talk show circuit to promote Micheal Moore's latest project. The relationship between the Herald & the Cuban Exile Community is so close it makes the one between the Moonies & the Washington Times look distant.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. yeah, no-one ever defects from Cuba
n/t
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Millions of Americans defect to other countries
Did you ever think about that?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. no, because its not accurate, they choose to live elsewhere
and are not prevented from doing so by the US government. that is not the case for the citizens of Castro's Cuba.

did you know millions of immigrants "defect" to the United States each year? did you ever think about that?
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. The US is a rich country and its large rich population is very mobile
and can more or less go and live where it pleases. Since the US was set up as an immigrant country, and since there is still a lot of wealth in pockets, it is normal that many people, poor people for the most part, would be migrating here as slave labor is needed.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. voluntary slaves huh?
what are they in their countries of origin?
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Poor people desperate for work
and the pickings are getting pretty slim for them in the US too, judging from the crash of the construction housing boom, so a lot of those slave laborers will have to start looking for another place to toil. Already people who have defected to America, such as many Irish and some Indians, have defected back to their country of origin, where the grass is getting greener, apparently.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I guess we can be grateful as US citizens then that we
Edited on Thu Aug-24-06 03:40 PM by Bacchus39
don't have to suffer such bleak circumstances.
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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
87. Well
As long as they're not from Haiti.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
70. Really?
Millions of Americans seek political asylum and renounce their citzenship?

I know that some certainly do, at least renounce their citzenship while applying for citzenship elsewhere but defect?

And there is of course a large ex-pat community.

A little different than defecting from Cuba.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #70
82. I don't know what definition of defect you are using
But Merriam Webster says nothing about seeking political asylum or renouncing citizenship.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Here ya go
Edited on Fri Aug-25-06 12:45 PM by rinsd
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=defect

Here's Websters

1 : to forsake one cause, party, or nation for another often because of a change in ideology

Again Websters on the definition of forsake

to renounce or turn away from entirely <friends have forsaken her> <forsook the theater for politics>
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
71. "millions of Americans defect" - Sez you. Name one.
...and by "one," I don't mean the guy down the street who spent three months in Italy once, or some such horseshit. I mean someone who actually, physically, defected in the EXACT sense that that word means, to wit, "to forsake one cause, party, or nation for another often because of a change in ideology," just like the Dictionary has it.

And don't name some spy either, just a regular old Joe or Jane who felt persecuted and headed to Havana or Mogadishu....
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Lee Harvey Oswald
Defected to Russia in the late 50s, thats the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Anyways, the poster is trying to connect people who move out of the US as defectors which is just laughable. I moved to England for 5 years. Does that mean I defected? No, I CHOSE to live somewhere else. And as a free citizen, I was able to do that. Try doing that as a Cuban citizen, or eventually as a Venezuelan.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. All defectors "choose to live somewhere else"
Nobody forces them, or you, to leave.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #71
81. What about the second definition in Merriam Webster's?
Main Entry: 2de·fect
Pronunciation: di-'fekt
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Latin defectus, past participle of deficere

1 : to forsake one cause, party, or nation for another often because of a change in ideology
2 : to leave one situation (as a job) often to go over to a rival <the reporter defected to another network>

Name one, you ask? Myself.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. This was a 2fer. They got to slam Castra AND Chavez. Efficient.
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Bacchus39:
Please be aware that DU copyright rules require that excerpts of copyrighted material be limited to six paragraphs and must include a link to the original source.

You have one hour from the time of your original post to make changes.

In the future, please insure your posts adhere to this standard.

TIA,

unhappycamper
DU Moderator
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. Didn't you get the memo?
No Castro or Chavez bashing on DU!
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. you mean I'm not invited to Raul's coronation??
n/t
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Are these Cuban Doctors
The same type of Cuban Doctors who have been offered jobs in the US recently? So what are they doing "scratching a living"?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. they are living in Colombia, not the USA
unless they recently moved so I don't know.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. As opposed to our doctors, who campaign for Merck and Pfizer... nt
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. Bingo.
Edited on Thu Aug-24-06 03:55 PM by PeaceProgProsp
That's exactly the right analogy.

I'm not sure it's at all offensive to have these doctors go around and remind people of why they're even in the barrios (because Hugo is president). Unless, of course, you're a doctor much more interested in your personal wealth than helping people. Then you should go around a tell people to vote for the candidate who's goign to cut taxes on the money you make selling your portfolio of HMO and drug company stocks. (Calling Dr. Frist.)
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I wonder if they make more than $200 a month as in Ven or
$20 month in Cuba. what say you?
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I edited my post. Don't miss the revised version.
And why is how much money you make so important to you?

What about whether you can read, have good health care, and live a dignified life?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Most US doctors I am sure can read and have good health care
and receive alot of dignity. Being directed by a dictator Castro to campaign for his amigo against your will is not exactly what I would call dignified.

the reason those doctors left is because the Cuban government was not treating them with dignity, rather using them as propaganda tools.
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. ...and vote Republican for $$$ even if it means their patients
get sicker and have more miserable lives.

I'm all for Barrio Adentro doctors reminding people that they're in the barrios because of Hugo.

There seem to be few causal relationships in politics more obvious.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. what if the doctors don't want to? they are doctors not parrots
n/t
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Does this story even allege what would happen if they didn't?
Presuming that it's trustworthy
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
74. I guess not.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
66. Of course it's offensive.

Just imagine the hue and cry there would be on DU if all doctors were required to remind people that they were there because Bush was paying for them.

Using state resources for political campaigning for one candidate is about as clear an abuse of power as you can get.

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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #66
88. If Doctors were caring for the poor ONLY because Bush made
Edited on Fri Aug-25-06 01:19 PM by PeaceProgProsp
them do it, I would have no problem if they were asked by their superiors to remind their patients that that was the case.

If all employees of FDR's programs which helped working people reminded the people who benefited from them that, but for FDR, they wouldn't be doing that work, I would not have a problem.

Would you?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
72. I don't know why they bothered to leave Cuba
I bet if they had ventured to Gitmo--our government would gladly give them asylum if they were willing to oversee the torture on the prisoners since the AMA said that American doctors couldn't do it anymore.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. Honestly, I have never been able to figure out why anyone...
would in the mildest way support Chavez or Castro. These men, if American Presidents, would be direct targets of our party, and rightfully so. They are dictators, don't make excuses for them. I dare anyone who supports these people to go to Cuba and actively protest against Mr. Castro. Go to Venezuela, do the same. I have a feeling you won't be coming back, or if you do it will be with intense emotional/physical scars.

These people are just as bad if not worse than President Bush. I understand that you don't have any ill will toward people in either of these countries, but unfortunately what you are supporting has/will be very painful and destructive to the average people of those countries.
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CollegeDUer Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Chavez wins democratic elections
So can I "make excuses for" him?

In Venezuela a team of students blocked the Parliament from leaving its meeting for hours. I think they did " back."
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
62. So did Bush.

Winning an election means that most of your populace thinks you're a good thing; it doesn't mean they're right.

I think that if Chavez were to be struck be a meteorite tomorrow his record would be well in credit, but I suspect that he intends to hold onto power well past the point where that remains the case (although obviously we won't know for sure until that's happened).
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. not by the margins Chavez wins by.
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CollegeDUer Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
84. My point is he isn't a DICTATOR
Even his biggest opponent in the upcoming election won't say that. His biggest complaint is that Chavez gives too much foreign aid.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Cuba for sure, Chavez is another story
being democratically elected I won't support the position that he is a dictator although he certainly has made some authoritarian movements, even more than Bush. Like Bush, he also appears to be an idiot.


He is a power monger and many here seem to believe that he is an altruist.

anyway, Castro, Chavez, and Bush all suck.

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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Regarding Chavez

I have worked with people in Venezuela for the past sixteen years. Some support Chavez, some oppose him. But there are a few things in which they are in agreement.

1. Chavez destroyed the communist rebellion which controlled most of the Venezuela countryside before Chavez assumed power.

2. Civil rights have improved dramatically under Chavez.

3. Venezuela is far, far better off today than it was before Chavez.


The Venezuelans I know who oppose Chavez view him in much the same light as a moderate Republican would have viewed FDR during FDRs tenure. They admit he did great things for his country, but they disagree with his long term plans. And until he is ousted or retired, they can not truly know if he is a dictator or not.

While there has been a lot of dirty electioneering on both sides, they all say it is impossible to live in Venezuela and not be aware of Chavez's immense popularity. In a perfectly legitimate election Chavez wins going away. Anyone claiming otherwise is lying through his/her teeth.

So maybe now you know why someone here would support Chavez. Because he has (maybe) brought democracy to a country that did not know it before. He defeated a communist rebellion. And he has introduced New Deal type reforms. Chavez is basically George Washington and FDR rolled into one.

With one major exception: Washington introduced a self-imposed two-term limit which did much to cement democracy in the United States. I am afraid Chavez' choice to retain personal power at least as long as the electorate supports him may be damaging the future of the democracy in VZ.

Of course, Washington did not have members of a military coup waiting in the wings for any sign of weakness. So Chavez may actually be helping to secure democracy by keeping the wolves at bay. Hard to predict.


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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. My daughter lived in Venezuela until recently and it was....
never a dictatorship under Chavez. She was as free as anyone to do whatever she wanted and say whatever she wanted. I don't know where you get the idea he is a dictator. He was elected.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. They do have elections in Venezuela
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
49. Do you really think the playing field is level?
That it's just as easy to have democracy in a poor country as it is in a rich one? Was there ever real freedom in Cuba or Venezuela? Are these guys better or worse than their predecessors? That's the only relevant question. Comparing them to us is grossly unfair.

The white people in America started out as colonists, indeed colonizers. The black and mestizo and indigenous populations in Venezuela and Cuba started out as colonized. The riches we transferred from our slaves and subject lands and peoples built the democracy we live in. Cuba and Venezuela are countries that have thrown off their colonizers, only to have them replaced with capitalizers. The net effect is the same.

Do you really think the free market is ever going to bring education, healthcare, or even human rights to these countries? A leftist dictatorship is imperfect but in my view preferable to a rightist kleptocracy that commits all the same abuses, with the exception of confiscation of property from the rich... which I'd like to see more of in THIS country.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. I do not think that's a position that one can justify.

Saying "left wing government will be better for these people than right wing, so they should have it even if they don't want it" is a position it's hard to defend, I think, but that's in essence what advocating left wing dictatorship is.

If the populace want those policies, such a dictatorship isn't necessary. If they don't, they shouldn't be bound by them.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I haven't seen evidence of the widespread opposition you cite,
though of course, since "dissent is surpressed," we can imagine the thoughts and feelings of the populations of those countries any way we desire.

I don't think they want the alternative anymore than they want socialism. I think they aren't used to having much say in how things are run. Of course, if a real People's Revolution were to overthrow one of these regimes--not an oil-company/CIA-financed coup--we would probably do away with the leader as soon as he stood up to make a victory speech.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
73. Honestly, I have never been able to figure out why anyone...
would have a problem with Hugo Chavez. I mean, except for Rush Limbaugh et. al. telling them to.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Well, this post should give you one reason.

More generally, while Chavez appears currently to have a perfectly valid democratic mandate, he is taking both steps to ensure that this doesn't cease to be the case that aren't legitimate (like using state resources to campaign, as above), and steps that make me worry that he won't leave power even when (not if -no-one remains popular for ever in politics) he ceases to have such a mandate (although obviously we won't know that for sure until that happens.
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
29. Why are they more free to say this in Colombia than in Venezuela?
Why aren't all the Cuban doctors in Venezuela telling the right wing press these stories?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. yeah, as if those doctors have the freedom to express themselves
openly and criticize either Castro or Chavez.
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. If they don't feel comfortable criticizing Chavez in Venezuela
Edited on Thu Aug-24-06 04:00 PM by PeaceProgProsp
then they're not reading the papers or watching TV.

People feel quite comfortable criticizing Chavez in Venezuela.

Aren't you a little suspicious of this story? The Miami Herald is trying to portray Venezuela as a soviet bloc nation where you have to sneak across the border before you can speak your mind.

We know that's a lie.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. so why have the "insult" laws then??
making it a crime to do so publicly and subjecting people to prison terms???????
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Have an example of those laws being used?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. why have them in the first place??
and they were strengthened under Chavez just a year or so ago. why???
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. because the legislature passed them
and the supreme court might undo them. But the attorney general would have to try to enforce them first.



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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. yeah, right
how about a control measure to keep in check the opposition. Several countries in the past several years have just recently repealed their "insult" laws, Costa Rica and Chile I believe, which apparently have been widespread in latin america. Venezuela did the oppostive, they strengthened the penalties for "insulting" the president and other public figures
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. ...and nothing has changed
people still insult the president. Go figure.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. proceed at your own risk
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Lot of US State Dep't opinions in that article without a single
factual allegation that I could look at as an example of the law being enforced.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. do some research then, Human Rights Watch
has a position on it. there are plenty of other sources too. I'll let you investigate though, if you care to look that is.
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Just asking for names and dates -- specific allegations of fact
so that I can cut through the spin of Bush's State Department, HRW's Latin American desk, and the Miami Herald.

Is that too much to ask?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. It's a load. The MH publishes at least one of these stories
every week.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. yeah, they publish stories on latin america all the time
there was one today on the paramilitary groups in Colombia
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. More than that, they publich stories that tend to reflect BushCo's
view of Latin America.

Myself, I'd like to know what is going on, good or bad -- just not BushCo.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. don't know, most papers don't publish alot on latin america
Edited on Thu Aug-24-06 04:15 PM by Bacchus39
in the first place. I read articles in Spanish from Venezuela, Colombia, and Puerto Rico. However, its a no-no to post them and provides a convenient excuse for the Castro/ Chavez groupies to ignore them particularly when events don't reflect favorably on El Comandante and su Teniente.

the Miami Herald at least does stories on latin america for better or worse.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Have to disagree. They do them for BushCo.
It is hard to get straight news. Miami Herald doesn't get the job done.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. whatever
n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Venezuela isn't Cuba. And you are seriously misrepresenting
Venezuela as several posters on this thread have pointed out.

What is your stake in dissing the democratically elected government of Venezuela -- where national elections are more transparent than OURS?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. how have I misrepresented Venezuela??
speaking of transparency, lets try and look at Castro and Chavez objectively.

you'll never see a story posted by the buttkissing crowd that reflects negatively on Chavez and Castro.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. There are very important differences between the two counties.
In fact, just about the only thing they have in common is that both have been fucked with by American corporations, ongoing.

Oh, and the Spanish language. :)
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. ridiculous post
they eat rice and beans, drink rum, dance salsa, have a similar historical past under Spain, play baseball. the list goes on and on. you get an F even from the George Bush School of Foreign Policy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. And, I consider the source.
:)
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. and I consider your statement that Ven and Cuba
have nothing in common other than Spanish to be a reflection of your ignorance.
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #59
77. What do you think they have in common? Let's start there.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
63. Oh, so that's why Chavez is so popular in Venezuela
Cuban doctors are brainwashing the poor through free medical care.

It all makes sense!

:tinfoilhat:
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. and that makes him infallible?
n/t
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-24-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. He's not infaillible. Nobody is. But if you're saying he has failed
you're going to need a better argument than this.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-25-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
86. Interesting argument here, between those who equate Venezuela and
Cuba (why, I don't know--although they have friendly relations, they are like night and day, as to democracy), and those who know the facts about Venezuela--that its elections have been the most heavily monitored in history--by the OAS, the Carter Center, and EU election monitoring groups--and have been deemed honest and aboveboard by all of these groups; that all Venezuelan media are controlled by the rich oil elite and vilify Chavez 24/7, and openly supported the violent military coup against him in 2002--and he has done nothing to shut them up; that the Bush Cartel used OUR money to sponsor the Recall election against Chavez (which Chavez handily won); that the Bushites are even now planning "special ops" to foment instability and overthrow this CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY; and that the vast poor population of Venezuela, which has never before been served by government, now have their RIGHTFUL due, as the MAJORITY, and are PEACEFULLY achieving HELP FROM THE GOVERNMENT, in the form of schools, medical clinics, community centers, highly popular adult literacy programs, small business and co-op grants and loans, and land givebacks to indigenous tribes.

Lord Almighty, democracy WORKS! Imagine that!

It is no wonder that the Bush Cartel and its war profiteering corporate new monopolies HATE and VILIFY Hugo Chavez--just like the corporate media and the rich oil elite does in Venezuela! Hate, not because of ANYTHING unjust that Hugo Chavez has done! Hate, because they're GREEDY bastards! They want it all! They can't stand it that a JUST portion of Venezuela's oil profits are being used to help THE POOR, and not to make the rich RICHER.

Now as for Cuba. What I see happening in Latin America--all over the continent, with peaceful, democratic, leftist (majorityist) governments elected in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Venezuela and Bolivia--with strong leftist movements also in Peru, Mexico, Nicaragua and other places--is a TIDAL SHIFT from the extreme conditions of previous decades, with utterly filthy fascist governments, sponsored by the U.S., torturing and killing leftist CITIZENS (teachers, students, mayors, clerics, workers, academics, small farmers, the poor), contending with armed leftist revolution of the kind that succeeded in Cuba (and in Nicaragua until the Reagan death squads went to work). You see your friends slaughtered by fascist government and it might well turn you into an armed leftist revolutionary.

That era is over. One of the reasons that it is over is the long hard work by the OAS, the Carter Center, EU election monitoring groups and local civic groups on TRANSPARENT elections, and CONSTITUTIONAL government, in Latin America. Another was the Iran/Contra scandal in the U.S. and the illegal war on Nicaragua, and other heinous events, such as the "School of the Americas" death squads in El Salvador, the fascist tortures and deaths in Argentina and Chile, and the fascist slaughter of tens of thousands of leftists and peasants in Guatemala--all backed by the U.S. with armaments and political support. The exposure of these outrages resulted in a deep change in this U.S. policy that began under Carter, proceeded via a Democratic Congress under Reagan, and held through Clinton. The U.S. backed off supporting these fascists governments, and the breathing room that that created allowed democracy to gain a foothold. It is now flourishing.

Cuba is an artifact of the past. It is a leftist dictatorship. None of these other leftist governments are. They are ALL democratic governments--including Venezuela, which is in fact the BEST and most representative democracy in them all (with Bolivia a close rival). There are no people more devoted to democratic, Constitutional government than the Venezuelans. They proudly hand out tiny blue 'thumbalina' copies of their CONSTITUTION to tourists! The vast poor majority is now represented by these governments--for the first time in their history. Bolivia just elected a 100% indigenous Andes Indian as president of the country for the first time in its history!

This SEA CHANGE in Latin America is from violent revolution to PEACEFUL revolution. The violent revolution of the past was justified, in most cases--or at least very understandable--but did not result in stable governments (or victory), except in Cuba.

And the thing about Cuba is that it WOULD NOT BE stable if it was NOT supported by most Cubans. It has been sitting off the coast of the most militaristic capitalist country on earth, for more than four decades. IF there was significant opposition, Castro would have fallen long ago. The entire Soviet Union collapsed--but not Cuba! So this violent leftist revolution must have produced considerable benefit for most people--and if you know anything about Cuba, you know that that is true. It is a far more benevolent "dictatorship" than most. It has abuses. It is somewhat paranoid (understandable, considering its situation--which bears some resemblance to Israel, as a matter of fact), with some elements of a police state. But if people were being heavily oppressed, we would most certainly hear about it from the Miami Herald--and the Bush junta and its lapdog corporate press. With modern communications, you cannot keep such things quiet any more (--massive repression, arrests, torture, etc.). Castro's government is no less legitimate--and probably more legitimate--than the government of the U.S., which achieved and maintained its power through stolen elections, prosecuted unjust war and the slaughter of tens of the thousands of innocent people in Iraq, and is massively spying on and stealing from its own citizens. Cuba has invaded no one! Cuba has, from violent roots, created a more equitable society. It may be politically repressive, but it is not a brutal government. Can we say the same of our own?

In any case, Latin Americans are now achieving PEACEFUL, DEMOCRATIC revolution. They don't need to bear arms against fascist regimes any more. We now have, as president of Chile, a VICTIM of Pinochet's torture--the first woman president of Chile, Michele Batchelet. We now have a former steelworker as president of Brazil, who led the third world revolt against the WTO at Cancun. We have a left/center government in Argentina that has severed Argentina's onerous ties to the World Bank/IMF (with HUGO CHAVEZ'S help!). We have Evo Morales (FRIEND OF HUGO CHAVEZ!), as president of Bolivia, who campaigned with a wreath of coca leaves around his neck, in opposition to the murderous U.S. "war on drugs," propelled into office by a grass roots uprising against Bechtel Inc. (which tried to privatized Bolivia's water supply), and he has said it best:

"The time of the people has come." --Evo Morales, 2006



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