My friend's embryo told me the other day it has a right to life.

[Deja Q]

It also told me it has a right to the following:

* the right to a good education
* the right to be part of a wholesome community
* the right to a job and a fair lifestyle
* the right to live in a safe environment
* the right to love and be loved


I responded to the embryo, saying that because of the people who run our society operate, I could only guarantee it the right to birth and anything after that is driven by either chance factors or by knowing the right people in the right places. At that point, it wanted to commit suicide by collapsing in on itself. I drove the embryo immediately to the ER, knowing full well the cost of life in our culture of life. I'm hoping the embryo can rise above its fears and succeed in a self-righteous, yet not-always-right society where the opposite seems increasingly true.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. You're Right. It Deserves A Right To Life And All The Other Items You List

But unfortunately, as stated, the hypocrisy of our society and government deem it unlikely that most on that list will ever be guaranteed.

[Kikosexy2]

4. Mine...

spoke French...so I slapped it...slap her she's French!

[sam sarrha]

2. so soon not getting pregnant will be a crime.. murdering an Ovum by...

omission of sperm.

[neoblues]

5. Plainly Sperm Should be Sacred...

along with women's Eggs, after all, if an embryo is a potential person, sperm and eggs when taken as a whole must amount to being potential embryos. Surely potential embryos have the same rights potential persons (embryos)...

Of course, considering the source of sperm and eggs (why does that sound like a Denny's Special) are real people and those people should be considered, therefore, in a sense (the equivalent of; source of), potential sperm and eggs... then people should should have the same rights as potential persons (embryos). Hmmm... so people should have the same rights as people... too bad they don't get the same rights--or at least concern--as embryos.

Remember... Soilent Green is people...

[Spangle]

13. It is in some religans and/or cultures

Not allowed to use anything to prevent sperm from getting to the egg. Wasting sperm was a bad thing. Which is why the do it your self jobers is still considered bad. Some groups take this to mean the only reason for sex was to procreate. No fun allowed. Praying before..some times during. Some even put sheets between the bodys with a slit so.. aghm.. contact could be made.

All I got to say about that last bit.. makes me think a gay guy come up with. AS the ONLY way to do the 'family duty' and not get ill in the process. And in the process, got all the straight guys to go for it. ~ shurg ~

Any who, that is why some groups don't like the idea of passing out condoms to people to keep them from catching diseases. Because it DOES prevent the sperm from reaching the egg. It doesn't matter that when that happens, the female might be so malnurished, the baby might not make it to term. Or the family might be so poor and lack medical care, that the child will not make it for other reasons. THAT isn't the issue. The child can die that way. But the parents are not allowed to prevent the possiblity of pregency at all.

[Fierce]

3. So, what? If we provide everything else,

then the woman has to carry it to term? Be careful.

[Deja Q]

6. Which seems worse?

Allowing abortions in a grossly imperfect world, where injustice and cruelty drives people to suicide?

Or no-abortions-ever in a nearly perfect world; one people would really want to live in?

[Crowdance]

7. Let's work toward "Best"not "Worse"

How about a world people would really want to live in, and in which women may choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. I'd really like to live in Paris (where they have lots of the things you'd like to have promised to the fetus), but I wouldn't give up sovereignty of my own body in order to do it.

[Deja Q]

16. If 'best' existed, nobody would have this conversation. After all,

nobody would think of terminating life except for the most dire of circumstances, which would purely be biological and related to the health of the mother. In other words, nobody would give it a second thought, like all of us are in this thread and beyond.

I am not anti-woman, and I am not keen on the idea of abortion, but the world these children are being born into is quite an irony compared to what is being said about the environment we've created for them. Which is the same one we created for ourselves.

I am pro-life and pro-quality-of-life. As it stands, I am compelled to support abortion. I would rather not. Regardless, it is not up to me what women do with their bodies. I just like to look at the encompassing issue then look beyond it. Just like you saw mine and took an extra peek beyond it.

[Crowdance]

19. I wish I could understand your post. I will point out its initial fallacy:

Women have always aborted fetuses for their own reasons. Those reasons may or may not qualify under your definition of "dire." Women abort because of bad timing, bad relationships, bad financial situations, because they don't want to be mothers, and a host of other reasons. I "get" that it's difficult for men to understand these circumstances, as they'll never be subject to them. But it might strengthen your argument if you proceeded from a factual point of view.

[Fierce]

23. Others have said this already, but I'll say it again.

There are a lot of reasons women have abortions. Even in your "perfect" world, women would have abortions beyond "biological" reasons (which are what?) or "health of the (sic) mother." In a perfect world, all women would have the right to control their bodies.

[aikoaiko]

8. Do you not think that one can actively construct these things themselves

"I could only guarantee it the right to birth and anything after that is driven by either chance factors or by knowing the right people in the right places."

Do you really see people as that passive and incapable?

[haele]

10. There's only so much anyone can do.

If you're emotionally "nice", you need be 1) very lucky in your circumstances and 2) to be able to spot opportunities if they come your way(that too often means seeking out the right people to mentor you) and then 3) work hard to get to where you want to be.
And hopefully, that will be enough to sustain you and your dreams.

If you're emotionally "a bastard", you just need to 1) be able to spot opportunities and 2) bully your way to where you want, not counting victims in your wake.
You're living on other people's hard work...and frankly, it doesn't matter if you're rich when you get to where you want. I know plenty of emotionally stunted men and women of all classes, races, and creeds who are bitterly happy living off someone else's hard work with the minimum of effort on their own parts.

It's not a matter of passivity or capability - it's that success in life, however you perceive it to be (a roof over the head and at least 2 square meals, a large, happy family on a farm with chance at a comfortable retirement, making it to "Business Big Dog" with a nice car and a McMansion, no outstanding credit, etc...)- is a matter of luck and opportunity.
The hardest working, best educated, or talented person anywhere cannot succeed without the combination of good timing and available opportunities.

Whether or not you agree with the O.P., that's the way it is.

Haele

[Deja Q]

15. 100% spot-on. Thank you.

[aikoaiko]

18. ....and action can (not always, but can) get you those things.

Of course, luck and opportunity are involved in all things in life --- heck even in the act of a fertilized egg is part luck and opportunity.

You talked about people (emotionally nice or not) at least being actively apart of the process of life. The OP didn't.

Opportunities may come to one because of hard work, luck, heredity, etc., but one must take advantage of the opportunity too. Success is usually more than luck and an opportunity, but some action as well.

and thats the way it is.

[Irreverend IX]

20. If you're emotionally "a bastard"...

You'll probably make more enemies than friends, and when one of the people you've screwed is in a position to take revenge they'll coldly cut you down. Bullying your way to the top only works as a strategy if it's intermixed with sycophantic simpering at the appropriate times and you know when it's safe to violate others and when it isn't. Mercilessly bulldozing your opposition may seem effective to the sneering frat-boy consciousness, but if you knock down the wrong person you're in for a world of hurt, and it's not always apparent who the wrong person is. That old lady who left your office in tears might be the mom of a police lieutenant. That's not to say that unethical behavior isn't implicitly condoned in the professional world, but success, whatever your moral code, takes a lot more thought and finesse than "bastard" behavior allows.

[Irreverend IX]

21. If you're emotionally "a bastard"...

You'll probably make more enemies than friends, and when one of the people you've screwed is in a position to take revenge they'll coldly cut you down. Bullying your way to the top only works as a strategy if it's intermixed with sycophantic simpering at the appropriate times and you know when it's safe to violate others and when it isn't. Mercilessly bulldozing your opposition may seem effective to the sneering frat-boy consciousness, but if you knock down the wrong person you're in for a world of hurt, and it's not always apparent who the wrong person is. That old lady who left your office in tears might be the mom of a police lieutenant. That's not to say that unethical behavior isn't implicitly condoned in the professional world, but success, whatever your moral code, takes a lot more thought and finesse than "bastard" behavior allows.

[Deja Q]

12. I don't see people.

I WORK with people.

We all have our positive and negative traits. We are not pro-active and capable in everything. That's where the idea of "community" came into play; people are supposed to help each other. Even the Bible talks badly of people who are greedy and don't help others. Why not coyly insult them instead of me? I'd fathom their responses would be far more colorful...

[Ilsa]

9. Was that before or after it was tossed in a dumpster? nt

[Deja Q]

14. Define "dumpster".

Do you really think I am talking of the stem cell debate?

[Jo March]

11. Brillant and to the point! K & R!! nt

[MysteryToMyself]

17. You got proof of that?

Call me a realist. I don't believe that embryo said a word!

Did you get a recording? :eyes:

[MysteryToMyself]

22. I was just kidding, I knew exactly where you were coming from

in the beginning post. A baby should be born into a world that gives them a fighting chance at living a good, decent life.

My take on it is that an embryo or a fetus is the potential for life. It is loaded with dna. What we need to do is figure out, for those who want to know, is at what stage "potential for life" becomes "life".

To simplify it, a chicken egg is not a chicken, but it has the potential to be a chicken. When does a fertilized chicken egg become a chicken?

I googled "Baby development pictures" and found out interesting things. For several weeks there is no way to tell the difference between a mouse embryo and a human embryo. There is no brain waves in an unborn until 6 months.

You can be a Democrat without having an abortion. The right to choose is really leaving it up to each female to decide. There are worse things than having an abortion. For example sending young men to wars without the right equipment and sending our soldiers to unnecessary wars.

The republicans will never outlaw abortion, because then they couldn't trot abortion out and thump the Democrats over the head with it during election time. A lot of republican women have abortions. They hide it like a cat hides it's crap, but hey, who are we to judge. The bible says, "Thou shall not judge."

The thing I don't like about the attitude in congress and the senate is that young mothers should work even if they are still living in poverty while working. They insist mothers leave their tiny babies and children to work, causing them to leave the defenseless babies with God knows what kind of day care. Sometimes it is with people that don't care about them and even abuse them mentally, physically or sexually. (Thanks, Bill & DLC Democrats.)

It galls me when I see our representatives setting on their arses, saying, "Welfare didn't work." It worked better than we the people supporting the men in suits on Capitol hill that don't listen to us but listen to lobbyists. The "white house capitol hill crowd" don't work...they set around visiting and thinking up what else they can do for the corporations, even giving them corporate welfare.

We don't have capitalism in this country. We have communism in reverse. I call it ComCapitalism. Instead of the poor getting more from the rich, under this "gang of thieves administration" we have the rich taking from the middle class and the poor. They use the elderly's surplus Social Security savings to pay expenses, while giving tax cuts to the rich. They give earned income refunded on their taxes to the underpaid worker, instead of making the corporations pay higher wages. They give handouts to the airlines and the oil companies and funneled our excess Medicare to the insurance and pharmacies with no bid charges, putting it on the verge of bankruptcy. Workers have paid a lot of money into Medicare so they would have reasonable health care when they retire. Instead, we are told to expect $300,000 medical out of pocket costs, even with all the Medicare insurance.

Instead of raising standards in other countries for the average person, these "leaders" are lowering our standard of living to the worst in other countries.

We need better day care and we need better wages for women who work. We need the Bushites and the DLC enablers, to quit trying to beat us out of Social Security and we need our own medicare insurance, pooled from our medicare payments and we need to get off the "profit from the elderly" gig. We, the middle class and poor, need a lot more of everything than we are getting, especially fiscal fairness.