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Ugnmoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 10:31 PM
Original message
Must Read - The real reason for a war with Iran
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/petrov/2006/0120.html

A little long - but something we all need to know and understand. It ain't about oil its about oil dollars.

The Iranian government has recently proposed to open in March 2006 an Iranian Oil Bourse that will be based on an euro-based oil-trading mechanism that naturally implies payment for oil in Euro. In economic terms, this represents a much greater threat to the hegemony of the dollar than Saddam’s, because it will allow anyone willing either to buy or to sell oil for Euro to transact on the exchange, thus circumventing the U.S. dollar altogether. If so, then it is likely that much of the world will eagerly adopt this euro-denominated oil system:

The Europeans will not have to buy and hold dollars in order to secure their payment for oil, but would instead use with their own currency.
The Chinese and the Japanese will be especially eager to adopt the new exchange. It will allow them to drastically lower their enormous dollar reserves and diversify them with Euros. One portion of their dollars they will still want to hold onto; another portion of their dollar holdings they may decide to dump outright; a third portion of their hoards they will decide to use up for future payments without replenishing their dollar holdings, but building up instead their euro reserves.
The Russians have economic interest in adopting the Euro – the bulk of their trade is with European countries, with oil-exporting countries, with China, and with Japan. Adoption of the Euro will immediately take care of the first two blocs, and will over time facilitate trade with China and Japan. Also, Russians seemingly detest holding depreciating dollars, for they have recently found a new religion with gold: their central bank is diversifying out of dollars and accumulating gold. Russians have also revived their nationalism; if embracing the Euro will stab the Americans, they will gladly do it and smugly watch the Americans bleed.
The Arab oil-exporting countries will eagerly adopt the Euro as a means of diversification against rising mountains of depreciating dollars. Just like the Russians, their trade is mostly with European countries, and therefore will prefer the European currency both for its stability and for avoiding currency risk.
Only the British will find themselves between a rock and a hard place. They have had a strategic partnership with the U.S. forever, but have also had their natural pull from Europe. So far, they have had many reasons to stick with the winner. However, when they see their century-old partner falling, will they firmly stand behind him or will they deliver the coup de grace? Still, we should not forget that currently the two leading oil exchanges are the New York’s NYMEX and the London’s International Petroleum Exchange (IPE), even though both of them are effectively owned by Americans. It seems more likely that the British will have to go down with the sinking ship, for otherwise they will be shooting themselves in the foot by hurting their own London IPE interests. It is here noteworthy that for all the rhetoric about the reasons for the surviving British Pound, the British most likely did not adopt the Euro namely because the Americans must have pressured them not to: otherwise the London IPE would have had to switch to Euros, thus mortally wounding the dollar and their strategic partner.

At any rate, no matter what the British decide, should the Iranian Oil Bourse gain momentum and accelerate, the interests that matter—those of Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Russians, and Arabs—will eagerly adopt the Euro, thus sealing the fate of the dollar. Americans cannot allow this to happen, and if necessary, will use a vast array of strategies to halt or hobble the exchange’s operations:

Sabotaging the Exchange—this could be a computer virus, network, communications, or server attack, various server security breaches, or a 9-11-type attack on main and backup facilities.
Coup d’état—this is by far the best long-term strategy available to the Americans.
Negotiating Acceptable Terms & Limitations—this is another excellent solution to the Americans. Of course, a government coup is clearly the preferred strategy, for it will ensure that the exchange does not operate at all and does not threaten American interests. However, if an attempted sabotage or coup d’etat fail, then negotiation is clearly the second-best available option.
Joint U.N. War Resolution—this will be, no doubt, hard to secure given the interests of all other members of the Security Council. Recent rhetoric about Iranians developing nuclear weapons undoubtedly serves to prepare this course of action.
Unilateral Nuclear Strike—this is a terrible strategic choice for all the reasons associated with the next strategy, the Unilateral Total War. The American will likely use Israel to do their dirty nuclear job.
Unilateral Total War—this is obviously the worst strategic choice. First, the U.S. military resources have been already depleted with two wars. Secondly, the Americans will alienate other powerful nations. Third, major reserve countries may decide to quietly retaliate by dumping their own mountains of dollars, thus preventing the U.S. from further financing its militant ambitions. Finally, Iran has strategic alliances with other powerful nations that may trigger their involvement in war; Iran reputedly has such alliance with China, India, and Russia, known as the Shanghai Cooperative Group, a.k.a. Shanghai Coop.
Whatever the strategic choice, from a purely economic point of view, should the Iranian Oil Bourse gain momentum, it will be eagerly embraced by major economic powers and will precipitate the demise of the dollar

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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R- the Iranian Oil Bourse could be the first nail in the coffin...
...of our economy, period. I take this much more seriously because this would really have an immediate effect on us, economically. Immediately...

PB
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That's right...And made really serious by our outsourcing of
vast percentages of everything from manufacturing to software engineering abroad. US doesn't have nearly as much to offer if our currency becomes devalued.
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Ugnmoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. This story is under the radar
But needs to get out. Americans need to know the dangers we face and why these Neocon fascist warmongers are not afraid of preemptive attacks on sovereign states.
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spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interestingly, today's Guardian
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 10:43 PM by spindrifter
reports that Iran is pulling its investments out of Europe right now, possibly "fearing" U.N. sanctions. http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1691730,00.html
That does not really comport too well with the euro-based bourse. Similarly, the Iranians are playing stop and go traffic with oil supplies to Turkey, where they are expecting some massively cold weather. Iran is fostering a lot of unpredictability. Of course, the lure, regardless of predictability, is the oil prize.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. That was the same reason we invaded Iraq.
Saddam was about to start trading oil for Euros too.

I've been terribly worried about the fallout impeachment and removal of this administration will have because once the threat of these despots is gone, the other countries will happily pull the rug out from under our economy.

But I still worry more about what will happen with this administration in power.

Military state, here we come.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yep! You're right. After we invaded they switched back to the dollar!n/t
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 11:01 PM by Poll_Blind
PB
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. I'm not sure they ever got the chance to execute
contracts in Euros... what with sanctions and all.

The danger was that at the lifting of those sanctions contracts were lined up with... yep... France and Germany for Billions of Euros.

We couldn't allow that... we'd have to stop consuming like Americans then.

I think it will be hysterical (in the maniacal sense) when Iraq's Shiite majority sides right along with Iran and votes to trade in Euros... what are we really going to do about it?

I hate this administration, I hate the fact that Americans are too plug ignorant to realize the hole they are Wal-Marting and driving their SUVs into.

If we had listened to Carter 30 years ago, we'd be an unassailable fortress of wealth and technology.
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Ugnmoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Right on Dr D.
Edited on Fri Jan-20-06 11:44 PM by Ugnmoose
We have a failed policy for 30 years and dug ourselves into a no win position. We have run out of chips to bargain with, and our foreign policy is an abomination. We have alienated the world and attempted to bully and intimidate our way. I think the piper is about to get paid and it is going to be an attack on the dollar via the conversion of petrodollars to euros. The reason we didn't become energy independent when Carter told us we needed to do it is simple that the oil interests in this country, specifically the Bush Cartel would not let it happen. They have made literal fortunes off of oil and the illegal conversion of profits from it to their various nefarious activities.
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. The UN had already approved Iraq's plan
to switch from oil dollars, even with the sanctions still in place.

That's when I knew there would be a war. Not because I am so smart about that but because I had a friend in Europe who was.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. ?
How do you know this? Isn't it possible other countries will be thrilled w/impeachment, and ready for Diplomacy again.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That's not how the game is played...
Sure there will be diplomacy, but while our economy suffers the EU and China will be bolstered. China will become an economic superpower.
The United States will suffer major setbacks.
The EU will strengthen it's alliances and the next thing you know we'll be a proud supporter of the UN.

The opportunity to trim back America's imperial potential won't be passed up just because we pruned a Bush.
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Correction
Saddam was already selling oil for Euros when Iraq was attacked. He made the switch in November 2000.

http://www.rferl.org/features/2000/11/01112000160846.asp

This is why the PNAC had to steal the election to protect their financial interests.

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Well get a load of that.
That explains a lot.
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. If you haven't already done so
please check out the link in my sig line....it connects a multitude of "dots".
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Thanks.
I've been over the timeline ad-nauseum, I just didn't know about Iraq already getting approval to trade in Euros.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. True dat
werd.

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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Decades Ago They Wouldn't Listen
We could have had so many other alternatives to OIL.

Methanol, Ethanol, electric, you name it. But no, it had to be OIL, profits, money.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. You ever Wonder...
... where those top 1-5 percents have their money vested?
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ding! n/t
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Ugnmoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. This will be the Fed's likely respsonse
Bernake will flood the market with dollars thus depreciating the holdings of foreign investors - primarily central banks. This will result in hyperinflation in U.S. The central banks will be forced to keep pace by inflating their currency. The net result will be a global economic fiasco. The foreigners see this one coming which is why the Chinese recently announced that they are going to diversify their new reserves away from dollars. It is also why we have been seeing a steady rise in gold prices. The gold cartel no longer has enough reserve clout to totally control the market.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. This is why they are going to hide the M3 starting in March.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-20-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. Maybe why Blair went along with Bush
is because of this reason. Bush probably promised Blair something (military or some type of job I've heard possibilities) and that's why he knowingly went along with the plans.
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. same idea here with some interesting historical background
http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html

The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse

by Krassimir Petrov

A nation-state taxes its own citizens, while an empire taxes other nation-states. The history of empires, from Greek and Roman, to Ottoman and British, teaches that the economic foundation of every single empire is the taxation of other nations. The imperial ability to tax has always rested on a better and stronger economy, and as a consequence, a better and stronger military. One part of the subject taxes went to improve the living standards of the empire; the other part went to strengthen the military dominance necessary to enforce the collection of those taxes.

Historically, taxing the subject state has been in various forms—usually gold and silver, where those were considered money, but also slaves, soldiers, crops, cattle, or other agricultural and natural resources, whatever economic goods the empire demanded and the subject-state could deliver. Historically, imperial taxation has always been direct: the subject state handed over the economic goods directly to the empire.

For the first time in history, in the twentieth century, America was able to tax the world indirectly, through inflation. It did not enforce the direct payment of taxes like all of its predecessor empires did, but distributed instead its own fiat currency, the U.S. Dollar, to other nations in exchange for goods with the intended consequence of inflating and devaluing those dollars and paying back later each dollar with less economic goods—the difference capturing the U.S. imperial tax. Here is how this happened.

More at link above...
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I am reading this right now....btw thanks very helpful
I need a little help understanding this part...if you wouldn't mind interpreting it:

The collapsing dollar will dramatically accelerate U.S. inflation and will pressure upward U.S. long-term interest rates. At this point, the Fed will find itself between Scylla and Charybdis—between deflation and hyperinflation—it will be forced fast either to take its “classical medicine” by deflating, whereby it raises interest rates, thus inducing a major economic depression, a collapse in real estate, and an implosion in bond, stock, and derivative markets, with a total financial collapse, or alternatively, to take the Weimar way out by inflating, whereby it pegs the long-bond yield, raises the Helicopters and drowns the financial system in liquidity, bailing out numerous LTCMs and hyperinflating the economy.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Scylla and Charybdis
As the dollar's value falls on world markets it will impact us in three major areas: interest rates, import prices, and oil.

* Because of our enormous budget deficits, we must attract foreign investors to buy our treasury bonds. The only way to attract these investors is to increase the rate of return on them --by increasing interest rates. This will cause the interest rates on all kinds of loans to go up: home loans, car loans, credit cards, business loans, etc. This increases the costs to businesses which they will pass on to the consumer leading to more inflation.

* A declining dollar will cause the price of imported goods to increase. For example, think of a Japanese firm that sells widgets in the United States. Say they make a 5% profit on each item. If the dollar falls in value 10%, then they are now losing money on each unit sold to the US. The only way to break even is by increasing the price of the item by 10%. This will leader to greater inflation in the price of imported consumer goods.

* All oil sold on world markets currently must be bought using US dollars. A declining dollar makes this oil cheaper for foreigners and more expensive for Americans. Oil companies, which are mostly American, will see their profits shrink so they will act to increase the price of oil to offset the dollar's decline. This will lead to skyrocketing oil prices in the US and anger our trading partners. Because oil is such a critical component of most sectors of our economy, the inflationary effects will increase the prices of EVERYTHING bought and sold in the US.

Currently the US trade and budget deficits require us to attract $2 BILLION PER DAY of foreign capital to keep the economy afloat. If countries no longer need the dollar to buy oil on world markets, they will have less incentive to want to accumulate and hold dollars. If the piles of US dollars (usually t-notes) sitting in their bank vaults begin declining in value every day, they will want to dump this bad investment in exchange for something else that earns money. This will push the dollar to decline even more rapidly.

Without this source of deficit funding, we could choose to just print more money to make up the difference --leading to hyperinflation. The only other option is to jack up interest rates to a point where the dollar can still provide a decent return on investment. As fewer people borrow money to buy things, and businesses borrow less (less money to improve and grow their business) the consequence will be less money in circulation (deflation) and a severe economic recession. The US will no longer be able to maintain huge deficits and will forced to compete fairly on world markets. The standard of living in this country is bound to fall substantially while this correction takes place.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. I agree. Here are some older posts with links to add to this discussion:
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
18. So, the wheels may indeed come off
Our economy as a car. If the car comes skidding to a stop and the wheels keep on going down the road... who're we gonna call? AAA?

No doubt, though, if the U.S. Dollar loses it's standing as the world's reserve currency--and there's increasingly less and less reason for other nations to continue subsidizing us by choosing the Dollar, so that if an option becomes available, such as the Euro with which to buy their Oil... they'll do it. It's just common sense and self-interest. We're in trouble and it's going to get much worse before it gets better (if it ever gets much better from that point).

Imagine, the dollar's worth very little. That would have the small benefit that our exports will be cheap/attractive to other countries (if only we had much in the way of products for exports--beyond produce from mega-corporate farms). Alas, as for everything we would want to buy as consumers--which is almost exclusively manufactured elsewhere and therefore is imported, the prices will go up drastically. Many dollars would be needed to buy anything from economies that align with the Euro... Well, we'll suddenly learn to make do with what we've got. Our "lifestyles" will take an amazingly large hit... That'll be the least of it. We'll be faced with massive unemployment along with a economic depression.

There's hope though, after some generations, other nation's will be enjoying high-wages and consumptive lifestyles... and multi-national corporations might then begin shifting their manufacturing jobs back to the U.S., to take advantage of our third-world incomes. Of course, that will be at a time when all of today's third-world economies are competing with us (on an almost equal footing?). Then too, by then we'll be facing real shortages worldwide for Energy...

Sounds like a good idea to begin investing in the Euro or perhaps Gold, but that too would add to our economic woes (albeit relatively insignificantly on the individual basis). Of course, Gold will be more expensive since a long list of other nations will be joining us in our hard times and people everywhere will be seeking to put their wealth into anything they think will hold value.

Troubled times though may be opportune times for cults like Christian Fundamentalists. What will the Wealthy with a capital W do? Stay and enjoy the greatest gap between haves and have nots to ever afflict America, or move (along with the headquarters of their favorite mult-national corporation) to another country whose economy hasn't failed? We should get them to stay awhile, while explaining how much we appreciate all their hard work sucking the life out of our economy and sending our manufacturing capacity overseas and, amazingly, taking credit for it's "success".

Don't worry, when the future comes, it won't be the future anymore.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I made that switch in 2004
Sounds like a good idea to begin investing in the Euro or perhaps Gold, but that too would add to our economic woes (albeit relatively insignificantly on the individual basis).
..................
We're lucky -our pension plan is in the UK and after we lost about 10% due to some scandal or the other in 2002, our union demanded that we control our portfolios.

The entire Middle East mess has always been about oil and dollars.
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Ugnmoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. kick
:kick:
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Heewack Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-21-06 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. So the obvious question would be...
Edited on Sat Jan-21-06 05:55 PM by Heewack
Why are the EU nations on the U.S. side against Iran?

If switching to the Euro as their trading currency for oil was such a bad thing for the U.S., then it would have to be a good thing for the EU, no?

One nation with less than 5% of the world daily output of oil exports is harldy reason for war.

This reasoning doesn't add up.
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