I like Obama

[erinlough]

I just watched his visit to Kenya and it seemed so good to see anyone in another country WELCOME an American politician. He is charismatic and a good politician. I would like to see him run for president some day.

[babylonsister]

1. He received such an overwhelming welcome; it was nice to see. nt

[spindrifter]

2. This was a brilliant visit.

Senator Obama will bring much to the table--so few of our current pols. are knowledgeable about Africa. I can see him as a Presidential or Vice Presidential candidate or as Secretary of State.

[prairie populist]

57. The only way Hillary can get elected prez is if she taps Obama as her veep

[ComerPerro]

3. I still resent him saying that Dems need to reach out to the religious

[PeaceProgProsp]

11. I'm an atheist and I agree with Obama.

[Greyskye]

15. Do you also...

...agree with this statement of his?

"It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase `under God.'"

As an athiest child I know that I certainly felt oppressed and intimidated by classmates and some teachers who insisted that I recite the Pledge of Allegiance the 'right' way.

Reaching out is one thing. Doing it at the expense of others is quite another.

[PeaceProgProsp]

16. I said "one nation under god" every day of my public school

k-12 education (except for one year when the school district removed it)and look at what it did to me -- I never felt brainwashed, nor did I feel like the pledge itself was brainwashing me to be an obedient American citizen. It was manufactured desire for unneeded consumer goods that took me years to overcome. The pledge was pretty straightforward -- in fact, it probably helped me develop the skepticism that I needed to address much more sophisticated attempts to instill compliance and the desire to consume.

By the way, when I see 'in god we trust' on currency, I don't feel brainwashed either.

[Greyskye]

18. I refused to say words I didn't believe...

... simply for the sake of conforming.

I'm so glad that you felt no such compunction. :sarcasm:

Currency doesn't try and make you feel guilty or sub-human. Not a valid comparison.

[PeaceProgProsp]

19. ...because you're afraid you will start believing them?

There was no punishment for not saying them at my school. And in fact a handful every year didn't because they weren't citizens, generally.

[Greyskye]

22. Nice debate tactic.

NOT.

No, I didn't say them because I was afraid that I would start to believe them. What a ridiculous statement.

I didn't say them because I was brought up to always tell the truth, even in the little things. And for whatever reason, when I was in elementary school back in the early 70's, this was important enough to me that I refused to say the words "Under God". I still said the rest of the pledge - just not those two words, as that seemed to me to be a BIG lie.

Because of this I was singled out by other students (and occasionally teachers) and grilled about my beliefs. In third grade I had to get help from my parents to come up with an answer about what my religion was that wouldn't get me beaten up on the playground (as being as atheist did); and would satisfy some of the more 'Fundy' type teachers. I told people that I was non-denominational. Enough of a truth that it satisfied my sense of honesty, big and official enough sounding to satisfy my classmates, and enough syllables coming from a 3rd grader to stop the teachers in their tracks.

So yeah, I've got a big problem with Obama's statement that no kids ever felt oppressed by saying those two little words. I felt oppressed, and my blood pressure still goes up when I think about the crap I put up with as a kid because of this issue.

[The Magistrate]

43. Then You Have, Sir, Denied Yourself A Valuable Skill

The ability to say things one does not mean without blush or bother is of great use in life, as is the ability blend in in a potentially hostile environment through mimicry of surface behaviors....

"Sincerity is the great thing: when you can fake that, you've got it made."

[Greyskye]

49. You expected me to have that skill when I was 8?

Life is a lot more black and white when you are young. Of course I can do that now; expecting that from a 2nd or 3rd grader is a little harsh, no?

Sheesh, someone else here is trying to channel Senator Frist. :eyes: So much for higher standards from the Moderators.

[The Magistrate]

55. You Would Not Find It Comfortable, Sir, To Swap Childhood Tales With Me

Save for appreciation of the briefness of time in its passage, all human wisdom is in reach of an alert child of seven years age....

"If your mother says she loves you --- check it out."

[Greyskye]

56. Non sequitur alert, non sequitur alert!

:eyes:

[The Magistrate]

58. Is That Some Sort Of Car Alarm, Sir?

Something to prick up the ears on a late night street?

"It's like fudge, only made of pigs!"

[Greyskye]

59. Exactly, sir.

This time you pegged it.

[Protagoras]

27. I attended school with a sweet girl who was a JW

and her faith prohibited her taking the pledge. As a result I watched many of the other sweet little children turn on her like rabid dogs. She was pushed and ridiculed and attacked...not just by the children but also by the teachers who at a minimum smirked or stared at her and at worse told her she was wrong or to turn around.

I was too young at the time to understand at all but I remember her crying. Her name was Rachel. She was a real person and the casual christian assumptions we all made did in fact have a negative impact on her...and there was no reason for it.

Did saying the pledge hurt me personally? No, mostly because as a child mindlessly parotting it I never even paid attention to the words. But I saw very young that the mindset behind it could indeed have a negative effect when used by blindly nationalistic bigots.

That's an aside to the OP though.

I like what Obama is doing this week. But I think he's becoming the same sort of cynical politician that Hillary has become...doing what they do for votes, and not so much because they have true belief in the right or wrong of their positions.

[Greyskye]

31. Thank you for your input

It amazes me that people not affected by something can be so blind to how that same thing can affect others.
Thanks again. :toast:

[PeaceProgProsp]

42. That classroom has problems much larger than the pledge

and it's not clear that not saying "one nation under god" was going to solve them.

[Protagoras]

44. If you think that classroom was unusual

or that things like the pledge aren't used to single out children then you are very much mistaken.

Yep that classroom and thousands like it have many problems. But don't kid yourself about how divisive such things can be.

[PeaceProgProsp]

45. If someone said, every time we talked about race in the classroom

the black kids got picked on, so we shouldn't talk about race, would you agree with that?

The problem with a classroom like that isn't that race was discussed.

[Protagoras]

46. Sorry erinlough for letting this get so far off track

Raise the topic somewhere else and perhaps we'll discuss it further.

As for Obama lets hope he now follows up on what appears to be a pretty good week abroad.

[ceile]

33. I got picked on too.

Not physically, but I was ostracised for many years because I wouldn't say the pledge. I also don't stand for it when others say it. I get funny looks for that.

[SmokingJacket]

47. As an atheist who hates the pledge, I agree with him.

I'd rather kids NOT have to recite that dumb thing, but all it is, as far as I'm concerned, is a dumb thing.

It was a minor annoyance. NOT even close to oppression.

[Greyskye]

50. One comment

I'm very glad that this didn't cause you problems when you were in school.

Please be aware that this is not the case for all children.

[SmokingJacket]

54. We have other, freaking huge, problems lately.

Seriously, I'm with you -- I would vote to keep the pledge out of schools (the WHOLE damn thing) in a minute.

I lived for a while in very Mormon Idaho as a child. I was frequently asked what church I go to, why don't I go to church, and why my family was so weird. I was told drinking my Pepsi was a sin, and lots more stuff.

Later I lived in a fundamentalist area. I was going to go to HELL for not going to church. (I remember saying to one of my little friends who told me that: "If I don't believe in God, why should I believe what you're saying?" Smart aleck!)

In school we sang HYMNS!

Now... that stuff all borders on "oppression." (Not the same league as black children sitting in the back of the bus, of course.)

And mumbling "Under God" made me feel slightly weird, but I remember thinking, Heck, it's all over the money, so, whatever, it must be basically meaningless. Minor stuff, man!

Hardly a reason to throw Mr. Obama out with the bath water.

[Perky]

53. Get over it.....He is right.

Simply because you do not prosribe to a set or religious ideals does not mean that those of us who do not deserve to have our voice heard.

It was an entirely appropriate comment.

[hedgehog]

4. He and his wife were publicly tested for AIDS

Bravo for leading by example! Actions speak louder than words, now I'm convinced this guy is worth watching!

[saltpoint]

5. Obama's star is bright & in the ascent.

[Surya Gayatri]

6. He definitely has the human touch

and the gift of connecting with people. Needs more experience & maturing,

but he could become a real contender. SG

[Greyskye]

7. I *USED* to like Obama

Until I ran across this quote in a news article:

"It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase `under God.'"

I immediately wrote Obama a letter recounting my own experiences in school, in which students and occasionally teachers attempted to pressure and embarrass me into saying the "approved" words. It's been 2 months now, and not even a form letter reply.

The way I feel right now, I wouldn't support Obama for dogcatcher.

[Surya Gayatri]

24. Most likely somebody on his staff

screwed up rather than Obama himself--somebody didn't pass it on. SG

[Greyskye]

25. That sounds...

...like the type of excuse the current (mis)administration uses. I've had enough of that to last a couple lifetimes.

Whatever happened to "The buck stops here"?

[rinsd]

26. The way I feel right now, I wouldn't support Obama for dogcatcher.

Well then you are myopic and should seek help if childhood bad memories still plague you so much that one quote by a man doing alot of good causes you to release such venom against him.

[Greyskye]

30. Thanks Dr. for your diagnosis.

:sarcasm:

Are you channeling Senator Frist?

[rinsd]

32. You decided to share.

You are the one raging about a single quote.

Something tells me your strident atheism wasn't what the kids teased you about.

[Greyskye]

34. You're really a piece of work

My point was that if Obama has the mindset that this sort of thing doesn't make any difference to children, then he (and evidently you) are the myopic ones. He made a public statement in which he stated that it was his opinion that the religious words in the Pledge didn't affect kids. I provided a first person example of how it did. Two other folks in this thread have also given examples of this.

I would like to know that no other kids would have to put up with this. If I was a Republican, I would be asking why you hate children so much. Thankfully, I would never stoop so low. :evilgrin:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. I Think He's One Of The Best We've Had. He Has A Heck Of A Career

ahead of him.

He is an extremely intelligent, reasonable and logical person who comes off as completely trustworthy and honorable. I may not agree with every little thing he's said or done, but overall he is top notch.

[eccles12]

9. I really think the job of President of the US is beneath him. Bush

has, in my opinion, so degraded the office only another buffoon would want it...and yes, that includes Hillary. With Bush winning or stealing the last two elections, the integrity and stature of the office is irreparable. The next President will be the leader of the most hated nation on earth and a mockery of a democracy or a republic.

[sandnsea]

10. I have two views on it

On the one hand, it was very good and smart politically, I can hardly criticize anybody making a sincere effort to help the African people. On the other, he hasn't gone to see his grandmother in two years which really bothers me, as a grandmother. And he took her gifts of sugar and salt and such, wtf?? I don't know his family situation, but he doesn't seem too connected to them and that does make me wonder about his depth of character a bit.

[liberalpragmatist]

13. Well, his father and him were not close

His father left the family when he was very young and returned to Kenya where he became a government economist. Obama grew up with his mother, his mother's parents, and his Indonesian step-father in Hawaii, then Jakarta, then Hawaii again. He only saw his father twice afterwards before his father died.

Moreover, his grandmother lives in a very small village and speaks no English, only Luo. She nevertheless came to Chicago two years ago to see him inaugurated.

Read his autobiography Dreams of My Father which is really a fantastic book. It's genuinely well-written, unlike most politicians' books, and since he wrote in when he was just fresh out of Law School it is genuinely his writing.

[sandnsea]

21. But he's 45 now

So he makes his choices as to his family relations at this point in his life. It just seems like once every 2 years is a bit on the thin side is all, since it would seem he could afford more and it sure isn't a time issue since Congress is on vacation every other week it seems. It's not a big deal to me, just surprised me when I read how little he sees his grandmother is all.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MikeyJones]

14. The problem with Obama.....

even though he's a good man is that he has no appeal with non-progessives and little influence outside of the Chicago area -- his main base of support. Not to mention he's still a political novice as can be seen from his often stuttering, unsure declarations of solidarity with other congressional Dems and that one mean letter he got from John McCain that revealed that he had little skills at handling the Senate game.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Is he too "divisive"? Too "polarizing" maybe?

:rofl:

I love GOP code...

And the way people just make shit up, trying to create momentum enough for a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just like with Clinton.

[MikeyJones]

37. No, it's not that he's too polarizing......

it's just, and not sounding rude, but he's not ready for the senate yet. That's big boy's school. He should have ran for the house first and then worked his way up because he obviously doesn't know how to play the Washington game very good.

Obama's a good state senator. He knows how to play the game in Illinois. But Washington is not Springfield or Chicago -- it's a very different ballgame and very international.

The guy just doesn't have the experience necessary to make an effective NATIONAL senator.

Barack's a good man and a good state senator and maybe like a good congressman or lt. governor or something like that but he's not Washington material. He's too clean for it. He's not a U.S. senator. Not trying to offend the man but he doesn't have the gall and the meanness to smash bastards like "The Hammer(or "The Enforcer")" Tom Delay) or Dennis Hastert who use an iron fist to smash all opposition to their corporate agenda. The guy needs to go back to Chicago and run for lt. governor and serve the people of Illinois. He does a lot better there than in Washington. We need another John Kerry or Russ Feingold in his place. Somebody who can bust balls and kick ass.

[PeaceProgProsp]

20. He won all over the state, and is better known outside his

state than virtually all Dem senators except Clinton, Kennedy and Kerry.

[MikeyJones]

38. Not really

Hardly nobody knows him where I live in Florida and definitely nobody knew him in my old state of Mississippi. And in Mississippi I'm talking about the black dems I knew. I had never even heard of him before he spoke at the convention. I think party bigwigs just wanted a new posterboy so they pushed him up as it and he didn't know what to do so he just made a few speeches. Give him time, if he survives I'm sure eventually he'll be a good senator.

[BlooInBloo]

39. The truth doesn't matter to this one... It's clear from what s/he...

... sees as ideal Senators what s/he is after.

[immoderate]

23. I don't see it.

I haven't seen any speech by Obama that impressed me. I am not aware of any legislative action of his that deserves merit. He seems to play it safe.

--IMM

[rinsd]

29. His convention speech was good.

"I am not aware of any legislative action of his that deserves merit."

He's a first term junior Senator.

[immoderate]

35. Fair enough. And he gets the benefit of the doubt.

I, for one, wasn't especially roused by his convention speech. Thought it was OK. Maybe I'm a victim of the hype and set my expectations too high. I'd vote for him though, if there wasn't a non-DLC type running against him.

--IMM

[rinsd]

36. He does have high expectations

And I too expect to see great things from him.

But at this point I am willing to wait and see.

[immoderate]

40. I'm watching.

Yes. Let's see what he does.

--IMM

[springhill]

28. I don't care for him at all.

[erinlough]

41. This was interesting...

I usually just read posts, don't often speak. I posted this because I was feeling it at the time and I have enjoyed reading most of the responses. Is it me or does it seem like the smallest thing polarizes us? If you read my post I just said it was nice to see an American politician welcomed and that he is charismatic and it would be good to run for President some day.

Nothin' polarizing there. Will we all come together on a candidate when we need to? Or, will we tear each other apart and lose. I don't know, but I do know already who I will be voting for...the Democratic candidate, whoever he or she is. And, I do know why....because the Democratic Party, even though I may not agree with EVERYTHING they do, stands more for my beliefs than anyone else.

[AtomicKitten]

48. It was lovely to see Obama welcomed in Kenya

Obama has a very bright future in the Democratic Party. He is a charismatic speaker with the wow factor of Bill Clinton.

Some here at DU are hypercritical of Democrats, more so than Republicans. No worries though. Most of us here will come together when it counts at the ballot box. :)

[Greyskye]

52. True enough

If Obama eventually wins the Democratic nomination for President, I would support him.

Until then, I will be looking for and supporting candidates who I feel are better. Personally, I thought Obama's convention speech was brilliant. I've just been terribly disappointed by him since then.

[Mass]

51. Obama's father was from Kenya. I am sure it creates a link.

This said, he is charismatic, you are right.