What kind of restitution should we expect once we prove the 2000 & 2004

[The Backlash Cometh]

elections were stolen?

Once we prove that there was an organized, treasonous manipulation of votes in either or both of the last two presidential elections, what kind of retaliation would you want to see? Here is my list:

(1) Every right-wing organization that was actively involved in stealing the votes should be liquidated, and the money should be given to the DNC.

(2) Every executive decision made by George Bush should be reviewed and if there is any indication that a campaign donor benefited from his decidery, that donor must be ready to give back the booty.

(3) All Bush judges should be re-reviewed once we have a full Democratic control of congress. Especially the Supremes.

(4) If at any time it's shown that the White House was involved in this act of treason, I think we should at least contemplate exile for them, after we confiscate their property.

[liberal N proud]

1. The first thing that needs to happen is to lock up the sob's

From the Christian Coalition to the White House and anyone in Florida, Ohio and any other state that perpetrated these crimes on America.
They should all be tried for treason and dealt with accordingly.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. We'll have to work fast to get anything from the Christian Coalition

because they're having a meltdown.

[ixion]

3. well, I don't think it should be about rewarding the Dems, so I don't

agree with 1), however 2-4 sound like appropriate justice to me.

I also believe, however, that we ought to use this moment, should it ever occur, to open the political process to Greens and Libertarians, as part of the reason this happened was because of the complacency and control implemented by BOTH the repukes and dems.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Libertarians? What makes you think that Libertarianism wasn't

behind a lot of what has happened? People seem to forgot that they're one of the major forces behind "downsized government." They are heavily represented in this Administration and if we forget about them, we'll be throwing out the dog and keeping the fleas.

Libertarians are the greatest co-opters of parties.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. Actually, one correction.

The NEO-CONs are the greatest co-opters of parties.

Hmmm...maybe that's what went wrong in the last six years. Both the neo-cons and libertarians took over.

[ixion]

13. libertarians took over...

:rofl:

As a political force, they have about as much pull as the Greens do.

I think we agree on Neocons, but we differ a bit on our perceptions of libertarians. :-)

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. Absolutely not!

That's what the insiders in the Bush Administration have reported. Libertarians are co-opters of both parties, but they've made greater inroads in the Bush Administration. Dilulio, an early Bush aid, made this observation that Washington had been taken over by various groups, one being the beltway libertarian.

http://www.stopdubya.com/Individual%20Archives/whistleblowers/JohnDilulio.htm

I don't differentiate between small 'l's and big "L"s when it comes to downsizing government. Grover Norquist, is of course, the person he was probably talking about. Here's an article titled, "A troubling influence"

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=11209&p=1

You'll read this about Norquist:

The talk that evening was of the honoree’s tireless efforts to advance his libertarian objective of down-sizing federal, state and local governments by reducing their revenues. He was toasted for organizing nationwide initiatives to memorialize Ronald Reagan, notably with the renaming of the capital’s National Airport after the former President.

And finally, Dick Cheney has been described as Western style Libertarian.

I don't care about whether a person capitalizes the 'l' or not. I care about the effects of the politics and, it's about the same for little l's as for big "L"s. They want to get rid of government regulations, so that eventually, they can profit from the chaos.

[Selatius]

27. Dick Cheney is more akin to a right-authoritarian in my view

If anything, he is in favor of massive government aid to the corporate sector at the expense of other government programs, and he as well as others in the business community would favor government intervention to protect their interests, especially against workers and the poor. One could call it corporate welfare. In addition, they generally favor tight regulation of the lives of people as evidenced by their desire to spy on ordinary Americans. A hardcore right-libertarian would never support subsidies or government intervention in any case, nor would he sit well with Big Brother.

My own politics places me into the moderate libertarian socialist quadrant. I think people should be free to associate and form organizations to defend the collective interest: To set up co-ops and communes and unions. The state's role should either be to encourage that or to get out of the way of that, not suppress or oppress it as it has done in years past. There are some areas I wouldn't mind the state intervening like with universal health care and subsidizing the education of college students, but I don't want pure state socialism where the government runs everything and dominates everything.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. I think ya'll who aren't the me-me Libertarian types need to find another

word to describe what you are, because the word, (L)libertarian is tainted forever. They're greedy, no taxes for the common good, pro-deregulation, pro-chaos, pro free-market regardless of the human toll it causes on the poor.

That's what the 90s and the the 00's have done to the word. Find another word.

[Selatius]

37. Why should we?

Internationally speaking, the word "libertarian" has always been associated with leftism. It is only within the US that it has been used by rightwingers, and the stuff they push is, in my view, nothing more than apologetics for capitalism.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Then I suggest you start cracking and win the semantic war, because

no one knows what you're all about, anymore.

[Selatius]

40. This argument over semantics is beside the point.

Regardless of what you want me to call it or what I want to call it, the fact is libertarian socialism or anarchism or liberal socialism or anarcho-socialism or left-libertarianism or whatever other term can be applied to the idea will remain the same regardless of what window dressing you want to use for it. If you want to get caught up in a debate over what to call it with other lurking socialists here, be my guest, but I find this little encounter rather frustrating because I find it rather useless, especially since the corporate news media was never our realm to begin with, and it never has.

The fact that we're still here and haven't gone extinct is a testament to the strength of the idea to endure through government oppression or capitalist tyranny.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. Words evolve and your definition has jumped the

shark. Your word, "libertarian," has been co-opted. Whatever you think it meant at one time, there is a new generation who know it a la Grover Norquist. And that's who they will associate you with. That's all I'm saying. Don't have the time and patience when someone wants to mince words and claim that it's a leftie word. If it is, then your kind of libertarian has been silent for too long.

[ixion]

12. Hmmm... most of the libertarian newsletters I'm getting disparage BushCo

rather than supporting it. Sure they're for smaller government (I'm for smaller government, too), but I don't see where they would be represented amongst the neocons, who are distinctly anti-libertarian, and not small government. Neocons are Big Government folks, even though they claim not to be, and anyone, no matter what political stripe, who buys into the whole 'freedom on the march' thing is a sucker by any definition, IMO.

Just my two cents. :hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Don't fall for it!

They're evolving with the times. Look at Lou Dobbs. The man was viciously pro free market until he saw the negative impacts of his beliefs. Outsourcing and open borders would be two things that would happen in a Libertarian state and Lou Dobbs is now vehemently opposed to both. Saying that they're really little l's instead of big "L"s is a ruse. They still believe in the same things. Read the post I wrote to the other guy.

And the reason our country is in distress is because we're being hit with a one two punch. You have the L(l)ibertarians downsizing all the social programs, while the money is going to the Neo-con's military purpose. And of course, who is happy as a lark? Dick Cheney. Son of a bitch is not only getting his welfare money while he's in office, but he's sure to have happy friends in the petrol business after he leaves.

[acmejack]

6. Rather see a parliamentary system implemented

Give the people a true voice. The tired old electoral college definitely must go! A popular vote has to be used.

[Surya Gayatri]

7. Hear! hear!

The Electoral College is a completely non-democratic anachronism left over from the early Constitutional struggles.

No modern democratic state worthy of the name would allow such a skewered system in the 21st century. During the early days of the formation of the nation it may have been excusable, but no longer. SG

[Hubert Flottz]

8. It should be made easy to remove FIRE government employees

who can't or won't do the job. Anyone caught tampering with the votes should get the death penalty. Zero tolerance for government crooks! Drug test and lie detector test every politician and TV hack!

[xchrom]

9. jail -- both the politicos who dreamed up this junta

and -- if they can be tied to it -- the corporate financiers.

[Bobbieo]

10. Make certain it never happens again! How ?

That will be the tasks of reasonable, sane people. Do they eixst?

[xchrom]

14. if the democratic party manages to regain control of both houses

it would be a supreme mistake for them not to investigate the criminality of the republick party.

one would HOPE that they would have learned from their lack of aggressiveness investigating iran/contra -- and not dogging the reagan admin into infamy.

[Tyler Durden]

11. For that sort of treason? HANGING.

And I don't mean the "gallows" type...I suggest being hoisted to the yardarm of the USS Constitution in Boston Harbor.

[Crankie Avalon]

15. You are optimistic to "expect" any restitution, at all...

...more than anything, these last 6 years seem to have proved that members of this country's hereditary elite can get away with just about anything in America.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. It's time to get angry and stay angry.

Be ready to fight back when the Republicans start telling us to get over it. I'm going to be barking like a rabid dog if it happens to me.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. Thank you for the new addition to my vocabulary

Decidery

Love it! :thumbsup:

[shadowknows69]

17. I'd be happy with all the guilty parties in prision

for a long long time. Bush's name stricken from the records as ever having been our President would be a nice touch too.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Time to draw a line in the sand.

There are things a president can do, and what presidents can't do. And right now, between Clinton and Bush, we have a crime of proportion. How can we impeach one for lying about a blow job? Clinton showed that he didn't know where the private sector interests stopped and the public service started when he brought Monica Lewinsky to her knews; Bush shows that he doesn't know where the private sector interests stops and the public service starts by bringing our country to its knees. It's time for justice to bring things back into proportion.

[JVS]

18. NONE

[Peace Patriot]

19. Jail is useless. Confiscate their money and their property--we're

looking at a $10 TRILLION deficit (and that's just the part we know about)--and put them to useful employment, like emptying bedpans in Veterans' hospitals. $5.50 an hour. Make them live on that. No free meals in jail!

Exile has a wonderful, Biblical sound to it. But they'd just go mess up some other peoples' country. They've already done enough of that. No, I think we have to keep our S.O.B.'s here, and I think we should have a national video camera broadcasting their work at the Vet's Hospitals to all and sundry, for as long as they live.

I can think of about 10 people who should get this punishment (after we've tried them, of course--or maybe before; we might want to make up special rules and a special status for these jewels--i.e., enemy combatant). For the rest (including collusive Dems): "truth and reconciliation." If they confess their crimes, they get only half their money and property confiscated; and no jail (or community service); but they are banned from public office. No truth, we throw the book at them. (But still no jail--I don't believe in it.)

Rightwing groups will wither and die as soon as Diebold/ES&S's voting stealing capability is removed from our election system. They've never been anything more than about 20%--nutcases we've always had with us, since Cromwell's days--plus maybe 15% mixed multi-billionaires, billionaires, multi-millionaires, etc. I don't think the right has ever had more than about 35%.

Set reasonable but firm limits on corporate monopoly and profit, and dismantle any corporation over those limits, and seize their assets for the public good. Enough is enough!

Bust the military budget down by 90%, to a true defensive posture. No more pre-emptive wars! If you can't defend our nation's capitol--and can't even defend the Pentagon--then your usefulness to the American people is over.

Yes, rescind all Bush appointments. I was thinking back to 2004 (egregiously non-transparent and invalid election). But I wouldn't oppose a clean slate.

Barring that, pack the court. (Yes, it's legal--and we can do anything we goddamned need to do, to protect the interests of the American people. We're the sovereigns here!) Other ideas: given them term limits, or make them electable; or, sick a special prosecutor on them to spy on their every hunting party. All fed judges are impeachable.

28th Amendment: Ban all private money in political campaigns. Provide a % of the fed budget for candidate access to the voters. Reclaim some of our public airwaves for political debate. (See above: dismantle all corporate news monopolies--not just limits--total ban.) Banning the money has to be made equal to the 1st Amendment--as the law of the land. We all know that money should not = free speech. But that's how they play it. So we just eliminate that right. No right to gain advantage in free speech with money.

CURTAIL THE PRESIDENT! We've got to put shackles on him/her. We don't want to prevent an FDR. We do want to prevent another Geo. Bush. How about this? For the next 50 years, you can only run for president if you make under $50,000 a year. Ha! Now, this would prevent a noblesse oblige rich guy like FDR from becoming president. But these are different times. I like it. One more thing: Permanent Special Prosecutor, from a pool of defense lawyers who have a strong record of serving the poor. His/her job: to prevent the president from breaking certain laws, starting civil rights laws. Spec Prosecutor would have the right to submit articles of impeachment directly to the House as a privileged resolution--actually, I believe Grand Juries have this right already, under Jefferson's Rules for Congress--or to the Supreme Court (which would be permitted to impeach by unanimous vote, and try, or convey trial to the Senate), and some third alternative (perhaps a random, rotating state supreme court.)

I'm having fun here.

Ranked voting (can't think of the other name for it): If you've got a Bush, a Gore and a Nader running for Prez--if you vote for Nader and Nader gets eliminated, your vote goes to the candidate of your choice (presumably Gore). Instant run-off! That's the other name. Ergo: your vote isn't wasted, and Gore has to form a coalition with Nader, rather than getting pulled way over to the right to make up the lost leftist votes with rightwing votes. Boy, would THAT open things up! Instant run-off voting for Prez and Congress. (And goodbye, Electoral College--yes!)

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. All very good and well thought out. Thanks.

I yield to your greater wisdom.

[mod mom]

29. What about the Hague? It is not just the American people who have been

swindled by these thugs. What about the 100,000+ foreigners who have died due to the immoral and self serving policies of these despicable creatures. The justice needs to be for all people.

[Selatius]

20. PUNISH the crooks and then DISSOLVE the US as a nation

I believe the US as a nation should be dissolved. It's clear the regions of this country no longer agree on very many things both political and cultural. A house divided cannot stand. I recommend a peaceful, orderly dissolution of the Republic. Let the regions of the country decide how their new governments should appear. It could be a parliament or a semi-democracy or whatever or a carbon-copy of the current government structure; it's up to the people of these different regions to decide for themselves.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. Unfortunately, I see this happening.

It's what Republicans wanted in the early 90s when they couldn't have it their way. I wonder how they feel about it now.

[Initech]

28. I think we've got this whole thing wrong here.

If the Dems are going to any sort of damage to the republican controlled House, Senate, White House, and Supreme Court, we need to take back the media first. The media has been under republican control since de-regulation in 1996. That's why they were able to go after Clinton so easily and why all the bad shit surrounding the Bush administration has been buried on page A36 after the advertisements for department store lingerie sales.

Repeat - If we want to take back the White House, we have to take back the media first. That should be our goal.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Oh, I live for the day that Chris Matthew's home in Nantuckett goes

into foreclosure...

[Initech]

34. Or how about Limbaugh selling his private jet?

[BlueCentrist]

32. sounds good to me.

Every decision ever made by the W.H. since 2000 should be reviewed.

[Dora]

33. Revocation of corporate charters

Diebold, Choicepoint, and any other corporate entity involved with election fraud should experience the revocation of their corporate charters. If it's possible, I believe that members of their BODs and exective power structures should have restraining orders put into force that forbid them from associating with or doing business with any other persons involved.

[Chemical Bill]

35. What I want...

is all laws and government regulations brought back to their status as of November 2000. I want all appointees to be removed, including from the SCOTUS. I want all traces of *'s government wiped out (except for the impossibility of bringing back the dead in Iraq).

I expect nothing of the sort to happen.

Bill

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. I think we're about to see what happens when government totally

loses its credibility.

[Protagoras]

39. Prison terms

then the rollback of all their assaults on our nations laws.