Kerry alleges misconduct in 2004 Ohio vote

[kpete]

Kerry alleges misconduct in 2004 Ohio vote
POSTED: 8:21 a.m. EDT, August 29, 2006

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sen. John Kerry didn't contest the results at the time, but now that he's considering another run for the White House, he's alleging election improprieties by the Ohio Republican who oversaw the deciding vote in 2004.

An e-mail from Kerry will be sent to 100,000 Democratic donors Tuesday asking them to support U.S. Rep. Ted Strickland for governor of Ohio. The bulk of the e-mail criticizes Strickland's opponent, GOP Secretary of State Ken Blackwell, for his dual role in 2004 as President Bush's honorary Ohio campaign co-chairman and the state's top election official.

"He used the power of his state office to try to intimidate Ohioans and suppress the Democratic vote," Kerry says in the e-mail, according to a copy provided in advance.

Kerry, D-Massachusetts, conceded the election when he lost Ohio and its 20 electoral votes. A recount requested by minor-party candidates showed Bush won by about 118,000 votes out of 5.5 million cast. But Kerry's e-mail says Blackwell "used his office to abuse our democracy and threaten basic voting rights.

more at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/29/ohio.kerry.ap/index.html

[rusty charly]

1. too late, john

[blm]

2. Too late to warn about election fraud? Would Aug 2002 have been too late

for Gore to warn about election fraud?

Does the Dem party have SO MANY lawmakers directing attention to election fraud that we can attack Kerry for his efforts?

[helderheid]

5. BRAVO blm!! Too late for 2004 but NOT for 2006, 2008, ...

[EFerrari]

58. You're right. I think that a lot of people who worked hard

are still upset.

Can't blame them. Maybe we can take that upset and put it to work securing our vote.

[robinlynne]

64. you are so VERY right! We need all dems to speak up!

[rrasile]

71. To late

He was the one that quit. The vote count and voting machines are not new issues. Hell Debolt is an Ohio company and most of us Buckeyes know that Timken was the start up people for Debold and we all know who the Timken people support.
There's a quote we have around here and it from a Debolt agent promising ten thousand votes if their machine is used in their board of elections.
Blackwell campaign spokesman Carlo LoParo said "People will say anything for money," But I say that Blackwell owning stock in Debolt and buying their machines was a conflict of interest.

[blm]

76. And if Gore warned of election fraud in 2002 it would've been too late?

Kerry wasn't controlling the Dem party and its infrstructure from 2001-2004. That is when the election was lost to electronic voting machines. If people in Ohio KNEW about the machines and didn't raise holy hell about it long before the 2004 election with your Dem party infrastructure there, then THAT lost the election BEFORE Nov.

[Imagevision]

166. Kerry & Gore too late... need new blood!

Feingold or something...

[blm]

173. That new blood has a 13yr record of quietly sitting on the sidelines, even

as other Dems were sticking their necks out and taking the hits.

[wisteria]

7. he has brought up these allegations before, along with other Dem's.

It is to late for what? To get a good Dem elected as Governor in Ohio and to draw further attention towards voter issues. I think it isn't to late for either of these things.
And, as for Senator Kerry running in 08, why don't you save your opinion and vote for then. He has as much right to run as anyone else and more reason to do so.

[bigluckyfeet]

84. Take a Walk Kerry,and bring Hillary With You

Once around is enough.

[LittleClarkie]

92. This isn't a new statement

He said it before in an MLK speech, and got ridiculed for that because apparently some here thought he was politicking.

He's still involved in a suit in Ohio, as far as I know.

Doesn't sound too late to me.

[Benfea]

177. Agreed.

He promised he would fight any improprieties tooth and nail. After going back on that promise, I find no reason to ever support him again. He lost his one chance to be president.

[ThomWV]

3. 2 Years Too Later

[blm]

4. Would Aug2002 have been too late for Gore to warn Dems on election fraud?

.

[helderheid]

6. you're missing "for 2004". Not for 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, etc., etc.

[wisteria]

9. You haven't be paying attention, yet you feel you have a right to

comment on what you know nothing about? Senator Kerry has brought up the very voting issues he writes about in his latest e-mail years ago.This information isn't new.

[PATRICK]

8. All judgments about Kerry aside

read that first snide sentence in the AP report carefully. Read it again. That is an interpretation, an attack and a definite tone of sneer. Then it continues to show how Bush "won" and FINALLY includes a snippet.

Then the issue is reexamined by all those unsuccessful challenges and Blackwell gets the last word in his defense, a much longer citation than that granted to Kerry(who pulled his punches in an attempt to avoid this very predictable kind of media riposte.

Posting the Kerry story via this source is like trying to scrape the barf out of your pet's bowl. I would hope it can become more habitual to put the context of the post clearly in the light of this slanted, predictable and flamebait media reaction and not the factual story it spins toward the gutter. We might as well report what the freepers are saying or Rush says about the Kerry message because at least it would clear what agitating role the spin is playing.

We are always playing off the presentation of the MSM and forgetting it is not an impartial observer or fair commentator. That is why it is absolutely essential to stake out real news sources and channels(which don't exist for the mainstream yet) in all the main media. You can't get around its destructive monopoly of the national forum.

[EFerrari]

35. You're so right. Authorized Propoganda is connected

to ES&S.

No degrees of separation. And I don't think people really get how cosy the situation is.

[blm]

98. Apparently not - they're sucked into mocking Kerry as the article intended

Which is a HUGE part of the ooverall problem that even so many here just don't get.

[ProSense]

99. Kerry obviously struck a nerve!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2007712&mesg_id=2007712

[ProSense]

100. Kerry obviously struck a nerve!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2007712&mesg_id=2007712

[redqueen]

57. However, combined with posts like yours - great material for LTTEs!

Thanks.

[femmedem]

122. You're so right.

That first sentence stunned me with its bias. It insinsuates something really nasty about Kerry's motives, thereby directing the reader to discount anything he says.

Sometimes when my local paper prints AP stories like that, I e-mail the editors and lay out the bias paragraph by paragraph. I don't know if it does any good, but I hope so.

[Greyhound]

10. and that's why we can't give him another chance to throw an election.

If we let another politiwhore get the next nomination, we are lost. This country needs a fired-up, charismatic, take-no-prisoners, populist that will take her/his case directly to the people every time the "establishment" tries to pull their extortion bullshit to preserve the status quo.

[Kashka-Kat]

13. agreed. he can and should play a powerful role tho in cleaning up the

disaster that is American elections.... hope he can do that. Politicians aren't known for putting their egos & ambitions second to working for the good of the country... but maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Greyhound]

20. I would encourage him to follow Al Gore's lead.

Citizen Gore is vastly superior to politician Gore in every way.

What ever happened to Ted Turner's philanthropic challenge? I know he has made all the payments he committed to, even when his net worth took a huge hit after the 2001 meltdown.

[blm]

25. I heard Gore repeatedly warned Dems about election fraud in 2001 and 2002

but people wanted him to go away that it was too late.

[karynnj]

28. I honestly don't remember that - but I take you at your word

I do remember his speaking against the war. It sounds as though the media had a vested interest in this issue not getting out in both post 2000 and post 2004. I wonder how much I would know of Kerry's many comments on it without his email, web site and DU.

[blm]

56. Actually, he didn't - I was making a point that election fraud was OFF the

radar for Democrats as a party, and the issue was LED and discussed by NO Dems.

Yet there is one person taking all the MISPLACED BLAME from those too lazyminded to assign accountability in any realistic way.

[Greyhound]

49. Then where was he while hundreds of thousands of citizens were in the

street, all across the country, to protest the coup? Where was his support? We were out there, where was he? Oh yes, I remember now, he was too busy telling us that it was over and there was nothing to be done. He was presiding over the Senate as Representative after Representative tried to get one lousy Senator sign the vote challenge.

[mongo]

54. Exactly!

[MH1]

104. Hundreds of thousands?

in the street? to protest an election? In America?

When? Where's the news stories, the photos?

I realize you are talking about Gore in 2000....but I don't remember hundreds of thousands protesting the election.

[Greyhound]

150. No you wouldn't, because there was NO COVERAGE at all.

We were out in the streets in FL and DC and NYC and other major city across the country.

And your statement/question irrefutably demonstrates the effectiveness of corporate control over the media, or perhaps the incuriousness of the amerikan sheeple, either way, they didn't report it, so it didn't happen. Really scary :scared:.

There were a few local pieces that mostly mocked us, and because we were spread out across he country, they just "forgot" to mention that similar events were taking place elsewhere. When the protests were mentioned at all, it was presented as "the local hippie/LW fanatics/nut-bars are at it again".

[blm]

23. Who is that?

And show me that person's record of achievement to help convince me that they're for real.

[Greyhound]

52. I don't know. Who was Huey Long before he took up the cry and

thereby forced FDR and his fellow do-nothings to take action?

S/he is out there, probably not running for office, because s/he can't break through the bullshit turf war in the local Democratic Party.

[blm]

60. So work against the Dem with the BEST record of any lawmaker in office

in his efforts to expose government corruption.

That's a brilliant tactic.

[Greyhound]

63. Who's working against him? As far as I know the voters in Massachusetts

think he is a fine Senator. I don't live there so my opinion is meaningless. All I'm saying is that he had a chance to be a leader, and instead he chose to be a politiwhore. Now it's time for the next one to try.

[blm]

69. HAHA - you don't accrue the record exposing govt corruption that Kerry has

by being a politiwhore.

Since everyone else in the senate and congress has lesser records on working against govt. corruption, then WHO isn't a politiwhore to you who should be the next person to "try"?

[Greyhound]

73. Hmmm, seems to me that he was a Senator in 2000 when the

Representatives were literally begging for one single Senator to sign the challenge of an obviously fraudulent election.

Yes, a real stand up guy. :eyes:

Again, I think as long as the people of Massachusetts keep sending him back, he's fine with me, but he has proved himself to be unwilling to put it on the line when it really matters.

[blm]

75. When it really mattered means different times to different people.

And since NO ONE IN CONGRESS has ever put themselves ON THE LINE WHEN IT MATTERED more than John Kerry has over the last 35 yrs, then who is more deserving to you based on your criteria?

[Greyhound]

77. Since you have apparently forgotten what was written five lines up,

I'll repeat myself, I don't know who, but that's not the issue is it? It is not Kerry, and that seems to upset you greatly. He had his chance, he blew it, and to paraphrase the man himself, "get over it".

I do believe that a fraudulent national election qualifies as one of those times that really matters, another would be when unabashed fascists are appointed to the highest court, but what do I know?

BTW, why do you discount all of those Representatives that did indeed put their careers on the line to bring the challenge in the first place? Are they not members of Congress?

[blm]

80. There still isn't a one who's put his ass on the line more than Kerry has.

And I do not discount what they've done - I just know it doesn't add up - simple math - list the REAL battles.

What upsets me is when people mischaracterize what happened, what legal recourse was at hand, and where the responsibility for accurate elections really lies - within the Dem party infrstructure which a CANDIDATE needs to trust just as much as a VOTER needs to trust - what is the Dem party infrastructure going to do to secure our votes and to counter the four years of maneuvers the RNC works on between elections?

Blame Kerry - take the focus off where the election was actually lost - the FOUR YEAR effort by the RNC to suppress and purge Dem voters and control the machines' input and output - so how did the DNC do as a counter to the RNC?

[Greyhound]

85. "Laws grind the poor, and rich men rule the law" - Oliver Goldsmith

"A brave man struggling in the storms of fate,
And greatly falling with a falling state.
While Cato gives his little senate laws,
What bosom beats not in his country’s cause?"
- Alexander Pope

When the law is inadequate, or is twisted as to pervert its intent, it is the duty of citizens to stand up and demand change.

I don't blame Kerry alone, but as I said, he had his chance to stand up and he remained silent. Why should I or anyone believe he will behave differently now?

And why wouldn't Kerry sign the challenge?

[blm]

88. Because Gore asked them not to do it - Gore was not in the position to

declare whether or not he would run again, but if he WERE To run, he wanted to do so without the bad press that would rain down upon him if that fight remained in the news.

If Kerry had ignored Gore's wishes, he would have been accused of grandstanding for 2004 or that he did so to HURT any future candidacy for Gore.

You act like it's easy for heros in this corporate news environment.

[Greyhound]

151. No, it's never easy to be a hero, that's why we have so few.

A hero is the person that does what is right, though it costs him everything.

"If Kerry had ignored Gore's wishes, he would have been accused of grandstanding for 2004 or that he did so to HURT any future candidacy for Gore." This is not the action of a hero, it is the action of a politician.

One Senator is all it would have taken to alter the course of history. The resulting manipulation would have eliminated *'s chance to do all the crap he and the rest of the cabal have done, as it would have exposed them as the criminals they are, even if they had retained the office in the end. He would have been politically emasculated, unable to force anything through, and would have shown that the Democrats were principled enough to stand up to them.

Think about all the crap that followed in the next two years, and how that might have been different if the perception of the Democratic Party as spineless, ineffective, hacks was proved wrong. Retained the majority in the Senate? Narrowed the majority in the House? SCOTUS appointments? Anti-poor laws, etc?

[blm]

153. Completely untrue - one senator could have done it but all that would have

occurred is Al Gore would be forced to condemn what that senator did publicly and distance himself from what was done and Clinton would come out and say that it's wrong for any Dem senator to treat the process in a partisan way like the GOP did to him. That's the reality of the political environment of that time. That was the nature of both Gore and Clinton at the time.

That would have changed history, alright. But not necessarily for the better. And Kerry had a decade filled with accusations of being a conspiracy theory nut because of his investigations, shouldn't other Dems be held to some standard where THEY step up and give Kerry a break now and then from always having to be the "one" leading on most issues?

On almost every issue he has been the one to step up, and yet no one else gets slammed harder when they don't.

[Greyhound]

156. You're just wrong. If he, or any Senator, had signed on to the challenge

it would have forced the issue. It would have exposed most of what the media was ignoring (remember that it was Palast writing for a British paper that exposed the LIES about the "recount"?) and forced the issue front and center. It would have crippled * the lessor's administration from the beginning, even if they had been able to retain office and changed the tone and likely the outcome of the 2002 fraud.

The point is that it would have made a great deal of difference and none of us know what would have resulted, but it couldn't have been worse. That is why it is absolutely vital that we do what is right, regardless of the potential cost, every time.

We are living in a banana republic, quickly becoming a full-fledged police state, as a direct result of the failure of the Democratic Party to stand up, yet again.

[blm]

160. I agree it would've prolonged the issue - but to WHAT POINT? To the point

that Gore would have publicly requested the matter be dropped and to the point that Clinton would have LED all of DC in saying the country had to move on.

[Greyhound]

162. As I said, it would've forced their hand and utterly crippled his

administration from day one.

In addition, it would have dramatically improved the Democratic Party's image with the majority of sheep, for they want a candidate to stand for something with no equivocation. Most of them, rightly or wrongly, perceive the Democratic Party as having no firm beliefs and being willing to sell out and change their positions at the first sign of resistance.

They carried out a coup de tat and our side doesn't see it as that big a deal? :wtf:

[blm]

165. In what mediaworld do you think that is what would have gone down?

Most people in this country in Jan 2001 would get behind Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Poppy Bush and Bob Dole all urging the country to unite behind Bush2.

In YOUR world with the group of people you talk with, people like me, we concern ourselves with details of issues that few in this country even know exist.

Right now, it's a much more general view of what's going on that has brought more to realize Bush's incompetence, and for that it took an unreal hat trick of 2005 to open their eyes - first the attack on Social Security, then Schiavo, then Katrina. Unspinnable policies and events.

[Greyhound]

170. You're right about the media, that's why the resolution, or whatever

it is called, was so vitally important. It is an official action taken by Congress and therefore, cannot be ignored, it must be dealt with. It may well be that it would have resulted in upholding the SCOTUS non-ruling, but it would have exposed their under-handed dealing for those people you are talking about and would have cost them a many favors and promises and started them off in a much weakened condition.

No matter what the result, it would have changed what happened after and for the better.

Edited: This conversation, while very enjoyable, has strayed far from the OP.
It seems to have boiled down to, you give him a pass for his inaction, I do not. Let's just hope things work for the better in the future.

:toast:

[DWilliamsamh]

93. I like Kerry well enough but you go to far......

when you say the candidate must be able to trust the party - it was not the party's fault that Kerry decided to go home with his tail, and our rights between his legs.

The Democratic party raised millions of dollars and had hundreds of lawyers at the ready for what they anticipated may be a necessary challenge after what happened in 2000. In 2004 all Kerry had to do was say the word and those ready resources would have been brought to bear. If he had only decided at the time that the rights of voters to a free and fair election were worth his being called a "sore loser" by the barking crazy right wing at Faux, CNN, NBC, ABC and CBS, we might not be still talking about the continuing problems in the electoral mechanisms of Ohio and a dozen other states that continue to this day.

If the candidate does not have the stomach for a little name calling from the other side, there is little his party can do to help him or his supporters. In a very real way Kerry abandoned the national Democratic party and every voter who pulled a lever, punched a card, pushed a button or touched a screen in an effort to end the reign of Bush the II, and the rest of the Bush crime family.

Don't get me wrong in a choice between Kerry (a real Democrat with a somewhat weak spine) and Hillary Clinton, with her pandering attitude toward the theocrats, xenophobes, cheap-labor capitalists and false patriots in the Republican party, I'd vote for Kerry in a heart beat. But that doesn't mean he isn't deserving of criticism.

After all we are Democrats and Liberals. We don't scream "disloyal" when someone criticizes one of our own. That's the territory of "conservatives."

[blm]

94. The team of election lawyers said there was no legal case to continue, and

the Dem party was NOT going to back him up on a contest that had no legal evidence to continue.

The wrangling that went through the night wasn't because Kerry WANTED to quit - it was election lawyers and specialists saying there was no way to continue LEGALLY.

[DWilliamsamh]

117. I am not going to dignify that specious remark (n/t)

[karynnj]

108. Kerry was one of the few publicly supporting Gore's fight

when Gore was fighting. When Gore conceded he supposedly signaled that he didn't want a Senate fight.

[Greyhound]

152. So what? What Gore wanted or didn't want is irrelevant, they carried

out a coup! This is/was a much bigger issue than whether Al Gore could call himself Mr. President or not. They stole the fucking election! Obviously and blatantly, in front of the whole world! This is an unprecedented national crisis and our "leaders" went along with it. We now live in a country were the citizens have no rights, were the ruling class is free to loot whatever the hell they want with no fear of any consequences whatsoever.

Look, obviously this whole clusterfuck is not Kerry's fault alone, but he played a part in it and consistently made the wrong decisions at every turn, and we should not reward that profound lack of judgment with giving him a chance to make those kinds of mistakes as the most powerful person on the planet.

[karynnj]

29. Who do you propose as that mythical savior?

First of all, "another politiwhore"??? What are you talking about - bout AL Gore and John Kerry were among the most decent men who have ever run for President. Both had records that showed their integrity over decades of public life. It doesn't fit Mondale or Dukkakis either - the only one it could fairly describe is Clinton - who won. Kerry, by the way did not 'throw" the election. He did a pretty good job under impossible circumstances.

None of the 2004 challangers were even close to Kerry in 2004, I doubt any improved enough to become this perfect candidate. Hillary? I don't thik she is a populist, charismatic and she is as establishment as you can get. I assume that you are ruling out Gore and Kerry) None of the governors mentioned seem the least bit charismatic. Bayh? usually described as bland. Kerry is likely far more charismatic than any of these people.

[Greyhound]

59. I'm sure both Gore and Kerry are exceptionally decent men.

The problem is that they have both been/were in office for too long, became too comfortable wading in the sewer, and couldn't see the forest for the trees. They also failed to do what they knew was right and instead chose to listen to the incompetent hacks that ran their campaigns.

Gore is a much better man out of office than he ever was in. We're still waiting to see what Kerry is.

[blm]

82. Kerry never waded in the sewer and if you read the congressional record,

or perused the National Security Archives, you would know that.

Why do you think that Kerry was ostracized by the DC establishment for so many years?

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicasista]

87. No she believes in spreading the truth and refuting lies about Dems

I think we need to focus on 06 and stop making this about 2008. The average voters will decide that.



Why don't you target the Dems that are still silent on this issue rather than throwing stones at the one that is on our side?

[blm]

89. I'm an anti-corruption, open government Democrat - so that makes me

a John Kerry supporter.

Most of us who have keyed on the REAL PROBLEMS in governance that are just steeped in corruption have a very favorable view of Kerry. We trust that he will open the books on BushInc when he takes office. And you can bet that BushInc believes the same. Which is WHY they had to rig the machines and suppress the votes at every turn.

Why do YOU trash him BLINDLY so much? Did you have an account at BCCI?

[MH1]

105. Wow, that's an insulting post. Just wow. nt

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

141. Let's IGNORE Kerry's actual record of service so we can feel superior to

him. That's what many people do here, and if they didn't I would have no need to be vigilant in countering the attacks on him.

The problem with your conclusion is that you don't factor in that the REASON I work to COUNTER the lies constantly used against Kerry is because they ARE LIES.

I have never lied about Kerry or his record and I don't use LIES against other Democrats - many here do, yet I become your target - what does that say about YOU?

Kerry WON his matchups and it seems to me that the ACTUAL reason he is not president today is because of a Dem party infrastructure that had been in collapse since 1996 and was too weak to assure that the votes for Democratic nominees would be secured in 2000, 2002, and 2004.

What Democrats were in charge and oversaw the infrastructure during that timeframe?

If Kerry was to blame in 2004, then he must have been at fault in 2000 and 2002, as well.

[PresidentWar]

155. How about we just recognize that Too Late John is unproductive

to the cause of reforming the Democratic party into a serious party of opposition to the neofascists?

Oh, nice job on getting my posts removed by the way. It's too bad that some amongst us are so allergic to any sort of criticism. Criticism can help hone reform and make for needed change. It's a good thing.

[blm]

174. I'd say that determination was made by someone else. Everyone knows I can

take hits directed at me personally with the best of them my callouses are thick. But how typical that you would ASSUME.

You still cannot even NAME one lawmaker who has effected this nation's REAL history more positively than Kerry has or opposed BushInc and the corruption in government more than John Kerry has, and he was doing it LONG BEFORE many on DU even noticed.


So - if Kerry is too late, then what does that say about all the others?

[PresidentWar]

185. Changing the subject won't help you, blm

The conversation was about Too Late John's actions at the time, and his effectiveness now. So let's stay focused.

What hasn't changed: Too Late John decided not to pursue the election fraud charges when it would have counted. Too Late John has not shown that he's an effective candidate to challenge the hold on power by the Rethugs.

Let's keep this about Too Late John. Not about "others who didnt do as much".

[blm]

191. You whined, I replied. Your PREMISE is crap. AFTER the vote is too late

and why you can't grasp what every machine fraud expert has been saying for the last 3yrs is a mystery.

YOU blame Kerry for not having any legal evidence to continue in court.

You blame Kerry because the machines were not secured beforehand, a job that needed to be done by every COUNTY election board member as part of the Dem party infrastructure guided by the DNC.

Machines need securing BEFORE and DURING the vote because AFTER is too late with rigged machines set up for one time use.

The Democratic team of election lawyers told Kerry there was no legal case they could make to continue. YOU blame Kerry for not continuing in a court case without any legal evidence - something that could never have happened.

[PresidentWar]

196. Nice ad hom, but lets look at the facts instead....

Too Late John had a very good case to press on voter fraud.

He decided not to. And threw in the towel.

Too Late John had a chance to stand up to the IWR and say no to Bush's lies and transparent personal push for war.

He decided not to. Along with the other scared Democrats in Congress.

Now, wanna tell me again how this was all the fault of the Democratic Leadership?

[blm]

201. You want a civics course in how elections work and who is responsible for

overseeing the security of the them in every county?

The RNC did their job of suppressing Dem votes and gaining control of the input and output of the voting machines - how did the DNC do in countering those tactics for 4yrs? Funny how you believe that the nominee known for all of 6months is suddenly charged with MICRO-managing every detail including the security of the vote which has traditionally been a job of the Democratic party INFRSTRUCTURE - an infrstructure that had been weakened and in some crucial states COLLAPSED. And any Dem candidate running in 2000, 2002, and the Dem primaries in 2003 and 4 could tell you exactly how weak they found it.

[blm]

207. I've read some more of your posts - you attack ALOT of Dems.

And I am quite sure you know the difference between the Dem leadership and my refernces to the Dem party infrastructure that has been in a collapsed state since 1996.

[petgoat]

154. Before the election the Kerry campaign acknowledged the

problem with the millions of spoiled ballots, half of them black votes,
and promised that this year would be different.

His round-heeled concession was a slap in the face to all the voters
who stood out for hours in the cold November rain. His actions said
black voters don't matter. I bet some of his 2004 voters will never
vote again.

[Greyhound]

159. Just listening to Gore Vidal on the Randi show and he said it too.

The re:puke:s carried out a coup de tat and the Democrats let them get away with it.

[samsingh]

11. shouldn't he have contested in 2004 when the rest of us were

begging him to?

[edwardsfeingold08]

14. Agreed. He had the spotlight in 2004.

And he conceded without protesting the vote. Now, he addressed the issue with an e-mail. I'm glad he's dealing with the issue. I think all politicians should get their heads out of their asses about voting problems. But, an e-mail in 2006 isn't going to get much public attention. If he refused to concede in 2004 because of the Ohio problems, he could have electrified half the country that had no desire to have Bush in office. It may have hurt him politically, but more people would certainly have been aware of the Ohio issue and overall voting problems that way.

[City Lights]

17. Welcome to DU, edwardsfeingold08!

:hi:

[samsingh]

19. he had the lawyers ready. it was very disappointing

when he conceded while so many questions remained.

makes you think of a tin-hat (conspiracy)

[blm]

209. There'd be no mystery if people would comprehend what they choose not to.

If Kerry had ANY legal evidence to continue he would have.

The Dem party team of election lawyers - THE SAME TEAM WHO TOLD GORE HE HAD LEGAL RECOURSE TO CONTINUE - told Kerry that there was NO legal evidnece in hand to take to court to continue a contest of the election.

The CONSPIRACY was laid out in Jan 2001, and the RNC operatives worked every day for four years to pull off massive Dem voter suppression, purged voter rolls, and gained control of the input and output of electronic voting machines.

How did the DNC do in countering those tactics? How did the Democratic party's team of election lawyers and experts do in keeping up with the GOPs legal maneuvers?

Amazing that so many of you believe that only the nominee has responsibilities for every aspect of a national campaign. Kerry WON - he fulfilled that responsibility, but, the Democratic party INFRASTRUCTURE was beaten to a pulp for four years and could not lay the foundation to hold that victory up.

[Greyhound]

65. Welcome indeed.

I think you've answered the question nicely with this "...he could have electrified half the country that had no desire to have Bush in office. It may have hurt him politically..."

Keep up the good fight, we have a very long way to go. :kick: :patriot:

[blm]

78. With NO LEGAL EVIDENCE to continue the contest in court.

Funny how that one thing can be such a huge obstacle in actual court.

[PurityOfEssence]

12. It's like the old joke about why I couldn't be a comedian...

TIMING.

(It's hard to do this one in print; the way it works is like this: A: Why didn't I make it as a comedian? B: I don't kn... A: (cutting off) TIMING!

John Kerry blew it by not fighting back at the ads of his ancient senate testimony, blew it by not fighting back against the blatant lies of the swifties, blew it by not taking the fight to the Republicans and accusing them of selfishness that had nothing to do with national security and blew it in countless other ways. Besides all that, it's a TV world, and he just doesn't get the concept of being lively and engaging, although his quip in one of the debates about how people hadn't seen his "Kerry gone Wild" video yet shows the guy's got a lot of what it takes.

He's this generation's Adlai Stevenson and he shouldn't run. Too much baggage accompanies him, and being a New Englander is no help either.

[edwardsfeingold08]

15. That's harsh.

Buy, sadly, I totally agree with you.

[wisteria]

21. You are wrong on all accounts. Also, Stevenson's circumstances

were different. Gee, read some background before making accusations that can be easily refuted with a click onto Google.

[PurityOfEssence]

27. Please cite specifics

I was being kind and mild here. What are the issues you raise? I'm happy to go down the list point by point, and I think Kerry was too timid. When dealing with attack dogs, one must fight on their terms. The Republicans were fighting a knife-fight in a seedy bar, whereas Kerry was playing chess.

If you impugn my awareness of the election, then cite your cases, otherwise you're just playing to the cheap seats. I'm well aware of the time line and dynamics of the '03-'04 primary fight and the '04 election. For you to slag someone who disagrees with sweeping dismissal is no better than the standard conservative dismissal of others.

Where am I wrong? What doesn't fit that can be found through Google? Don't hide behind the dudgeon of superiority; state your case.

Kerry didn't fight back. The recent history of American campaigning is one of negative advertising. He didn't hit the selfish asshole Republicans, didn't respond to their negative attacks and played into their hands by trying to want a "stronger America".

I'll answer your accusations if you can actually rise to the occasion of stating them.

[TayTay]

31. What the hell are you talking about?

What are your instances of playing chess? When Kerry wiped the floor with Bush during the debates and called him out on foreign and domestic policy. (Ahm, what part of Kerry is right that is coming up even now, have you not heard?)

Now, let me get this straight. You have made a subjective argument backed up with opinion then you challenged a person who disagreed to take down your subjective arguments that are based on your opinion and for which you have submitted no facts or proof.

Ah, then, in an act of hubris, you ask for proof for the allegations you made. Ah, sorry, but that dog don't hunt.

[blm]

24. And the Democrat who has the greatest control of media and can depend

on that media to air all their counterattacks is................who?

[Harry Monroe]

34. Totally agree...

...fairly or unfairly, he's already "damaged goods". We need a populist Southern candidate in the mold of Bill Clinton. John Edwards anyone??

[karynnj]

44. Kerry is not damaged goods

he nearly won. None of the lies were true. Edwards is a one term Senator with baggage of his own. He was far weaker in the debates than Kerry was. The media tried to push him as an alternative to Kerry in the primaries and it went nowhere.

Clinton had a far easier election to win than Kerry did. Bush1's approval rating was at least 10 points lower than his sons's and there was a third party candidate mainly trashing Bush. Better yet, Perot pulled out and gave a looney reason for it - many of his followers then went to Clinton and didn't return when Perot re-entered. Foreign policy was low priority at that point.

[PegDAC]

106. How about Wes Clark? n/t

[politicasista]

111. Don't fall for the poster's bait n/t

[smartvoter]

16. This pisses me off.

This means he knew and he did nothing. Now, matters are worse with the same type of shenanigans happening all over the country because they got away with it in Ohio (and elsewhere, I know, but they broke their own rules on the recounts in Ohio, for crying out loud).

[wisteria]

22. No, it means that he did all he could with the proof he had in front of

him at the time. It means he filed and made charges in court briefs of disenfranchisement and deliberate voter intimidation. Senator Kerry has mentioned all of this before. It is nothing new to those who have followed intensely the voter problems in Ohio and also the wonderful Senator Kerry. You want to get pissed off and do something? Send a donation and speak out about voting issues to the media.

[karynnj]

39. The problem is the article which implies that Kerry is saying he won

Ohio - he didn't say that. Kerry is saying what he has said since the election. There was voter suppression. The RFKjr article is interesting in that it says that reasonable estimates of the votes lost to suppresion show that it could have made the difference. The problem is that these are votes not cast - you can't get them through a recount. Nothing in the electoral college process could deal with this type of problem.

What would lawyers sue for? Anything short of a new election wouldn't help. I can't imagine how you could have a suit, appeal it as needed and set up and have a second election (which might not even be legal)all before Jan 6 - That's only 2 months. These problems need to be eliminated before the election happens - and they are a disgrace. (Note: rather than a second election, the liklihood is that it would be determined by the Rep Ohio legislature.)

At any rate, Here's the letter- which is mischarcterized by the AP story:

Dear Karen,

Almost two years ago today, Ted Strickland and I stood together on a stage in Steubenville, Ohio and I heard Ted tell the crowd about the damage the Bush presidency and the Taft governorship had done to the state -- the unemployment, the jobs shipped overseas, and corruption at the top.

As I write to you today, Ted Strickland is offering Ohio a better choice in a campaign that our entire country is watching.

The choice couldn't be clearer.

On one side is Ted Strickland -- a good man admired by Democrats and Republicans alike. On the other side is his Republican opponent, Ken Blackwell, who has used his office to abuse our democracy and threaten basic voting rights.

Support Strickland. Beat Blackwell. Donate Now.

This isn't just rhetoric. In 2004, while serving as a co-chair of George W. Bush's 2004 Presidential campaign in Ohio, Secretary of State Blackwell oversaw the state's 2004 election. He used the power of his state office to try to intimidate Ohioans and suppress the Democratic vote. Is he ashamed of what he did? No -- he's emboldened by it.

Since 2004, he has twisted the election process even more, adding new voting regulations that have created confusion and controversy. His legacy as Secretary of State? Putting partisanship ahead of the electorate's fundamental right to vote. That's not just a reason not to promote him as Governor; it demands a grassroots mission to stop Ken Blackwell from getting a further grip on power in Ohio.

That is why I am asking you to act right now to help Ted Strickland wage an all-out effort in this tough race. It is a contest in which every member of the johnkerry.com community has a stake.

Support Strickland. Beat Blackwell. Donate Now.

In Congress, Ted has been an outstanding advocate for working men and women, children's health care, and veterans' rights. He has worked to bring good jobs to Ohio by fostering investments in technology, energy production, and economic development. And, while fighting to give our troops the equipment they need, Ted has been a steadfast opponent of the war in Iraq.

Ted knows the world beyond Washington -- he was a minister, a professor and a psychologist before he went to Congress.

Support Strickland. Beat Blackwell. Donate Now.

The Republicans who run Washington, DC know Ted is serious and have called in all their big guns to campaign against him. They know how important this race is for their future -- they think they need to win it to remain in power. Let's not let them have their way.

Sincerely,

John Kerry

[mod mom]

18. Perhaps Sen Kerry could go into the Af Am neighborhoods that were

disenfranchised in Ohio in '04 and discuss this. There are several influential pastors who WERE in Kerry's camp and have come out in support of blackwell. Someone from Dem leadership, besides Af American's needs to get into these communities and hear them out.

[EFerrari]

36. I just don't understand what's the matter with Kerry, with so many

people.

Unless at a national level, we're in so much worse shape than I ever imagined.

[karynnj]

42. What people are you talking about? Kerry has a Senate staff like other

Senators and I assume he has staff on his PACs.

[EFerrari]

46. I'm talking about a leadership that hasn't addressed the

problem of election fraud when they know their success depends upon elections.

I'm talking about John Kerry walking away from an election that was so rotten even *I* noticed.

I'm talking about the routine disenfranchise of people of color and poor people that the political class never seems to address although the mendacious ones, like my Senator WarProfits Dianne, has time for bullshit like flag burning legislation.

Those people.

[karynnj]

107. He didn't walk away - he didn't have proof to fight it

He has since then been speaking out and trying to get states to look at their practices and fix them. He is involved in all the federal legislation on it. Do you seriously believe that Kerry would have had either the Democratic party (where Clinton already had visions of Hillary 08 dancing before his eyes) or the media behind him?

There was absolutely no chance he would win - this way he's at least in a strong position to push change - and I don't see many others even trying. It is actually MORE provable that Gore won - that every one gives him a pass makes this seem just a Kerry vendetta. He's spoken about this far more than Gore has.

[EFerrari]

124. I'm not going to criticize John Kerry for speaking out. I'm glad he did.

And you know, we don't have to prove fraud. We have to expect transparency. Where there is no transparency, there is no franchise.

[politicasista]

121. Agree n/t

[Poiuyt]

26. "We promised"

I listened to John in the other room, arguing into a speakerphone that we could not concede until the votes were counted. "We promised," he said. "We told these people that if they stood in line and fought for their right to vote, we would fight to have them counted. We promised."

Elizabeth Edwards from her book "Saving Graces: Finding Solace and Strength From Friends and Strangers"

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3134

[karynnj]

38. This was November 3rd

When Kerry conceded he made a point of saying that all the votes would be counted. There were too few not yet counted at that point to swing the state to Kerry. If by a miracle, more ballots were found and Kerry won Ohio - the concession could and would have been rescinded - like Gore did in 2000.

In every election, other than 2000, the losing candidate concedes before the last vote is counted. In 2000, we learned that, at least in FL, militrary ballots can come in and be counted as much as a week after the election is over. Yet candidates routinely concede on the night of the concession.

Note that this says "the votes be counted" NOT "we will challange the disenfranchisement or voter suppression." Note that in the last 18 months, Edwards has said nothing about any election problems, while Kerry has on at least 10 occasions spoken out - and been ridiculed by the media and the RW each time. Once Kerry spoke on this, you can't say that it was Edwards deferring to Kerry. It was likely that it was not in his interest to push this issue as it could hurt him and he would face the treatment Kerry has been given.

I will consider it opportunistic if he or Hillary don't speak out soon, but jump on if it becomes an important issue.

[Spiffarino]

30. I vote "too late John", as well.

We could have saved a lot of lives if JK had challenged the Evil Empire from the get-go.

I worked hard for Kerry and believed him when he said he'd make sure every vote was counted. One can argue that he didn't really betray that promise, but he didn't fight when we needed him. My support for him now is lukewarm at best. I'd rather have a candidate like Feingold, Clark, or John Edwards. At least there's a chance they'll speak out the next time the rightwing thugs steal another election.

[karynnj]

41. So, have Feingold or Edwards spoken out as much as Kerry

on this issue. I know Clark has recently done a podcast on it. Why does only Kerry have the reponsibility to speak out on this - even though the backlash for doing it is much worse for him than anyone else. Why not hold other Democrats to task for this. Bill Clinton has the biggest megaphone - why is he silent?

[flpoljunkie]

50. Yes, why was Bill Clinton silent in 2004, and why does he remain silent?

Remember what Avi Rubin, professor, computer science at Johns Hopkins, wrote in an op-ed right before the election in 2004..."THE FOUNDATION OF OUR DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE!"

http://www.avirubin.com/vote/op-ed.html

Even if, on Wednesday, this election appears to have been a success, there will be no way of knowing for sure whether the will of the people was accomplished.

And even if there is no problem Tuesday, that does not imply that the election was secure - only that no one chose that day to exploit the insecurity. If an apparent success in November leads to greater adoption of fully electronic voting in the future, then subsequent elections will be even more vulnerable, providing increased incentive to attackers and, at the same time, more avenues for attack.

For voters to have confidence in the election process, it should be as transparent as possible. When technology that is inherently opaque is used in elections, peoples' confidence in the process will be justifiably shaken.

There are ways in which DREs provide an apparent advantage over butterfly ballots and hanging chads. But there are other ways in which these systems, implemented without voter-approved paper ballots that allow meaningful recounts, are potentially much worse.

Our goal should be voting technology that is beyond reproach. That goal may never be fully attainable, but we must do better than this. The foundation of our democracy is at stake, and thus, ultimately, so is our freedom.

[Spiffarino]

67. WTF has Clinton got to do with any of this?

Jeez, it's starting to sound like RW talking points in here

And no, I am NOT suggesting this is a freep. I'm merely holding my nose at the "blame Clinton" air biscuits floating around in here. Clinton may be a bigshot in the party, but he's not in power and he isn't running for anything. Blaming Clinton for not speaking out is like blaming the Clown for a bad Jack-In-The-Box burger.

[karynnj]

110. When I mentioned Clinton, it was because he had the biggest voice

in the party and because he and his allies tried to quickly strip Kerry of any claim to be a party leader as soon as he lost - indecently fast - and to immediately crown Hillary as a leader.

Everyone here is expecting Kerry to do things he absolutely couldn't do. Then there are the idiotic comments that he didn't contest it because people would call him names. This is a man who challanged Nixon - and was called every bad name in the book by the Nixon gang OR the radical left who wanted him to endorse things he disagreed with. He stayed exactly where he thought right - and to this day is hated by some on both sides. He was ostracized by his party when he continued to fight BCCI - likely setting back OBL! He really doesn't seem that thin skinned.

[LibraLiz1973]

127. Bill Clinton works for Clinton... Hillary Clinton

And I really don't think they wanted to sling mud at the Bushes because she knew then that she plans to run herself someday. A knock down drag out with Bushco would have damaged her with some Repugs that she imagines may vote for her so standing up and speaking out was a no go.

[blm]

143. Actually there is SOUND REASON to bring Clinton into it - He oversaw the

DNC and guided it throughout the period it was collapsing from 1996 through the 2004 election. Terry McAuliffe was his surrogate.

Why was the Dem party infrastructure ALLOWED to collapse in crucial states like Ohio?

Every Dem candidate running in 2003 and 2004 will tell you they found weak party infrastructures in every crucial swing state or red state they campaigned in.

Let's not see the forest fire that was burning while we chop down that Kerry tree.

[flpoljunkie]

178. Thanks for responding, blm. Excellent points, as usual!

[ManWroteTheBible]

131. It's all politics...

Bill is the consumate politician and is gearing up for the possibility of his own return to the WH as the First-husband. Is Hillary's blaring silence on this issue a sign of opportunism? Probably. But she and the "Big Dawg" are the only sure-fire winning political team we have. I don't like the fact that Hill & Bill are silent on this issue - and other issues. I've heard the Hillary-haters on the left side of the aisle. But should Hillary win the nomination, who is everyone here going to vote for? The Nader-type candidate? That's a Republican vote as far as I'm concerned. I'm voting for whoever wins the nomination for OUR party. I lost a lot of faith in Kerry, but should he win the nomination again, he'll have my vote. In fact, there are only 2 "Democrats" that I would never vote for: Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller. Hill & Bill are political strategists. The Clintons are going to do what it takes, even if it means playing footsie with Republicans and the media - and when the chips are down, they'll fight. That's my opinion. Bill didn't cut & run during the bullshit impeachment shenanigans and if there's evidence of voter fraud and Hillary's in the race, I'm putting my money on our last duly elected President and the Senator from New York.

[Spiffarino]

62. You solidly missed the point

By winning the nomination and running for President, Kerry effectively became the leader of the Democratic Party. The onus was on him - and him alone - to do what he implied he would do and make sure the vote wasn't stolen again. He failed completely.

Whether they shouted "Fraud!" from rooftops or fired a cannon, none of the others mentioned could have done anything about it. Kerry alone was in a position to question the validity of the election and demand justice. He promised a fight. Instead he conceded.

[ProSense]

68. That's nonsense!

The Democratic candidate is not responsible for the nation's election infrastructure. That control is at the state government level and state party officials and the DNC have more impact than the candidates. They are running for office. The notion that "none of the others mentioned could have done anything about it," but Kerry could have is a cop out. They all had the ability to do what Kerry did, but they didn't. Many of them remained silent!

[blm]

181. He needed ELECTION LAWYERS to question the validity and none

of them believed in machine fraud at the time and the they said there was no legal evidence to continue in a court.

The same team of election experts who told Gore he had a case to continue told Kerry there wasn't one.

So, explain to us all how Kerry could have questioned the validity of the election when the team of election law experts the Dem party has relied on for years were saying they had no legal evidence to take to a court?

[depakid]

32. A day late and a dollar short

Pretty much sums up his whole campaign.

[Nebulous Abstraction]

33. Gee John, thanks for the heads up on that whole election fraud

thing - I came to the same conclusion on election night. I mean...people don't really stand in line for 10 hours to re-elect retarded Presidents...do they?

[karynnj]

40. Kerry came to the same conclusion then too

The problem is that that voter suppression was done legally. There is no law in Ohio on number of machines. Additionally, a report on machine allocation supposedly went to all the bipartisan county ellection boards. This effectively means the Democrats should have known.

[DUBYASCREWEDUS]

37. I know

a lot of you who are not from Ohio are upset with Kerry for not standing up and fighting two years ago. I, too, was beyond comfort when he threw in the towel. But now that is behind us. We must stop "Taft"well at all costs. This man is as evil as they come. Trust me - as a life long resident of the great State of Ohio, Blackwell has his sites on a prize far more endearing than the Governor's mansion - he sees Senator - and then White House in his future. And he is just the "religious" right wing nut to do it. Right now he is hiding behind a group called "Common Sense Ohio". They have been bombarding the Ohio airwaves claiming they are not for any candidate but then proceed to slam Strickland in any manner possible. Blackwell is a thief and although he is currently 25 points behind Strickland it would not surprise me in the least if miraculously pulls out a victory in November. Also, watch out for the DeWine/Sherrod Brown race. Right now Brown (D-Ohio) is leading DeWine for Senator but the race is close and the Diebold State of Ohio anything is possible. We must put our feelings about Kerry behind us and unite to get rid of the evil that is choking our country. I can't get Sinclair Lewis' words out of my head: "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." No truer words were ever spoken especially as relates to Blackwell. Please keep your eyes on Ohio. Demand accountability this November and settle for nothing less.

[politicasista]

43. We need ALL dems on this issue.

I didn't like the concession either, but at least he is speaking out on this. He can't do it (expose the fraud) all by himself.

[BlueCentrist]

45. and this is what important right now.

I agree about Kerry being a disapontment in regards to the 04 election fraud but right now he is saying something.He is working to get the message out.How can anyone fault him for that?Atleast somebody is saying something about this issue.

And if you truly belive the election was stolen then you believe him to have won the Presidency so that counters all the criticism of he didn't "fight hard enough" against Rove and the swiftBoaters etc.If he actually won the Presidency then all this criticism of him is a moot point.

[politicasista]

47. He made mistakes, but he is learning from them

I think people also underestimate the power of the corporate media too.

[LibraLiz1973]

128. Good that he learned from them- now he can apply that knowledge to a new

candidate.

I for one will never vote for him again, and I know literally dozens of others who feel the same way.
I genuinely dont believe he has a shot in hell- I hope he is not foolish enough to waste $$ and time on another run

[ladym55]

135. Right!!

You are right on!! This isn't about what Kerry did or didn't do in 2004. This is about Ohio right now. This is about an incredibly corrupt election in a state that can't afford another Republican administration. The city of Cleveland is the POOREST in the nation, Cincinnati is eighth. The candidate for governor is also the CHIEF ELECTIONS OFFICER. No conflict of interest, there! The state itself is in denial. The local papers sneered when the RFK report broke.

Kerry is supporting Ted Strickland. He wants people to pay attention in 2006. That's the issue, not 2008. It is scary here in Ohio.

[neuvocat]

48. Uh oh.

Maybe its election-year politics and maybe it isn't. Either way though this is gonna hurt Duh-bya.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

61. Wow! That's a lot of

"fucks" on the issue. Are you planning on motivating people to the polls with this:

"What the fuck do we tell all these non-political people who already think that their vote doesn't count in 2008? Go stand in line for another 4 hours to have your vote not be counted?"


Who do you support? Please share your thoughts here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2005985&mesg_id=2005985

[Raffi Ella]

66. I understand your rage

Believe me I do.I feel the same way but I am not going to bite my nose off to spite my face.Raging at Kerry for speaking up about this issue now isn't going to change or help anything.

Indeed,if you care at all about election fraud THAT is what you would focus on not Kerry.

[redqueen]

53. To all y'all who are taking this as an opportunity to bash kerry ...

please consider that you're really not helping anything? Maybe it's just more important to you to vent, right now... I don't know.

Have you considered that perhaps what's important is moving forward and making what progress we can with all the help we can get?

But no... ignore me... y'all go ahead and keep throwing stones at people on our side for not being perfect. I guess that's considered helpful in some alternate universe somewhere, anyway.

*disgusted*

[politicasista]

55. It's ok

Don't let them get to you. :hi:

[mongo]

70. Hey Redqueen

in 2004 I registered dozens of people who "don't vote" because "it doesn't matter". What do I tell them now?

I was a volunteer for election protection.org on election day in Columbus at a polling place where it was half (mostly black) apartment dwellers and the other half rich white folk from the subburb of Bexley. The Bexley people were in and out in 15 mins while the other line grew to 2 hours long (because 2 out of there 4 machines were "broken").

In addition, in order to "speed up the process", poll workers went into that line and crossed off peoples names once they were in line. So, 20 mins in line your name was crossed off and if you couldn't stand there and wait for an hour and a half more (because you had to go to work) -- your name was already crossed off and you couldn't come back to vote later.

Sorry, you have no idea the after election despair and depression so many of us felt. Forgive me if I am bitter.

[MH1]

115. You tell them it mattered, it still matters, and it always will matter.

Too many people struggled too hard to get them a half decent opportunity to cast their vote (fraught with b.s. hurdles as it still is), for them to just give up. If someone says "it doesn't matter" because their candidate didn't win, then their candidates will never, ever win. And to decide to stop voting because your guy didn't win is just plain quitting.

Next, you find whoever you need to find and figure out what you need to do to make sure that there are enough machines allocated per precinct next time.

You find out what friggin' crazy law allowed poll workers to "cross peoples names off once they were in line" and then not let them vote if they had to step out of the line and come back. Gee, in PA people have to SIGN the book and no friggin' way do they do it until they get to the table inside the poll. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you find that the poll workers doing what you claim were violating the law. If they weren't, then the law needs to be changed.

Maybe, you could become a poll worker yourself. Then you would have official standing to challenge the shenanigans.

Don't think I'm just talking out my ass. I did it. You can too.

[karynnj]

119. Wouldn't the head of the Ohio Democratic Party be a far better

recipient of this anger? Or the head of the DNC? The Ohio party should have been on top of things before election day. If they weren't going to be they should have gone to the DNC and obtained help. Kerry was running a Presidential campaign. Making multiple appearances every day. Talking to reporters everywhere. It was NEVER the job of the Presidential candidate to look at reports and see that machines were reasonably allocated.

I understand the despair and I'm sure KERRY who spent 2 years working to be President did as well. The party - aspecially in Ohio let him and all of us down. When things broke down and votes were suppressed - they were not cast - there was NO way in the time allowed that Kerry could prove he received more votes cast - no one has yet proved that.

The only thing to do now is to try to fix things - which is what Dean (and Kerry) are trying to do.

[redqueen]

147. You tell them that you NEVER GIVE UP, that's what.

Did KERRY cause all those problems? Do you think he, alone, can fix them?

You tell them to get their asses in gear and take their bitterness to the OH elections board, the local elections board, etc. You tell them to change that depression into anger (after this long, it should be easy to do), and use that anger-fueled energy to shake some shit up, that's what!

I know stuff was majorly screwed up there and in many other places in '04. Hell I'm in TX... trust me I know about screwed up elections... but what can you do but just keep trying... and try HARDER?

I just hate this infighting is all. I'll slam a DLC'er all day long if they're taking sides with corporatists, don't get me wrong. But this "too late kerry" shit just drives me right up a wall. If even lowly, slimy, corporate whore DLCer comes down on the right side of the issue, I'll call them and thank them, not tell them "well you're not perfect so feck off"... hell I'll even call and thank GOPranos if they do the right thing (rare I know but it *does* happen sometimes).

Sorry to go off... this just... this really gets to me... especially now... Nov 7 is approaching FAST.

WE NEED UNITY!

STRAIGHT FUCKIN TICKET, I DON'T CARE WHO'S ON THAT FUCKIN BALLOT!

[mongo]

149. I hear you too

And hell yeah I'm angry.

And everyone around that isn't a kool-aid drinker knows in their heart that the 04 election was fixed. No one trusts the new machines.

I've never been a big player in local politics. Because of my profession it is better for me to mostly work from the sidelines. But I really haven't done enough yet this year. I guess that I need a kick in the butt.

[redqueen]

161. The hour is getting late, indeed...

perhaps just having some flyers around for your customers might help a bit? :D

I wouldn't think they'd be offended... or they shouldn't be... and if they are they're stupidheads.

The first thing the Justice dept did after idiothead took office was go after porn, after all.

[mongo]

175. Yeah but you wouldn't believe

how many customers I pissed off with my big Kerry sign in the front window. Had a few say they'd never shop here again - but of course at least 2 of them are coming in again.

[redqueen]

176. I always forget how freaking stupid they are.

Perhaps you might remind them of the bush adm's efforts regarding their chosen indulgences. :7

[PresidentWar]

72. Good Ol' John, late to the party as always

If its not the war, it's election fraud in Ohio 2004. John just can't seem to grasp the idea of seizing the moment. I hope that we Democrats can find a candidate sometime, for the presidency, that DOES grasp the idea.

[ginnyinWI]

74. Why bother to slam him then, if he's so irrelevant?

I think he still is, and that's why he continues to draw fire from people.

[PresidentWar]

113. Because we need better.

We deserve better. I am sick to fucking death of Democrats who cannot formulate a resolute and unyielding opposition to wrongdoing.

[blm]

90. What Democrats HAVE been leading the party on election fraud issue?

And what Democrats have always led the way on so MANY issues?

[PresidentWar]

129. Before or AFTER it was even relevent and needed?

It's not a particularly helpful idea to contest your execution from the grave.

[blm]

146. Did the GOPs steal the election on Nov 2, or did they work at it for 4yrs?

Many of you pointing the blame at Kerry when the fact is that it is the Dem party infrastructure that did not do its job effectively.

You blame Kerry for not doing Terry McAuliffe's job.

[PresidentWar]

157. Did Too Late John fight election fraud WHEN it happened

or years afterward, when he detected things were going against the GOP warmongers and he saw it as an easier ride?

[blm]

168. Kerry's been speaking out about election fraud since Jan2005 when more

facts started coming to light. He's even brought up the problem with the machines on the Senate floor - and so far, he's the ONLY senator who has.

Care to explain why someone who purports to be an active Democrat doesn't even KNOW what's been said by whom on an issue you think you know?

There is no fighting machine fraud AFTER the vote as a rigged machine would be set-up for onetime use- the machines need to be secured BEFORE and that was the Dem party infrastructure that should have been on that for ALL candidates on the ballot.

[PresidentWar]

186. Did Too Late John fight election fraud WHEN it happened, blm?

How come you won't answer this simple question?

[blm]

187. WHEN it happened was the duty of the Dem party infrastructure. Democratic

voters ELECTED and hired them to make election security decisions for the voters and ALL the Democratic candidates. There is no way any candidate is going to oversee those duties in every county of every state.

Kerry DID his job and won every match p he had with Bush - he campaigned better, drafted better policies, gave better speeches and rallies and won all 3 debates DECISIVELY.

How did the DNC do in its matchup with the RNC?

How did the left media do matched against the RW message machine?

How well did the Dem party infrastructure perform?

Any voting machine fraud expert will tell you that AFTER the vote is too late. Any rigged machine would be set for onetime use and erased with no traces of what happened.

That's why securing the machines is an action to be taken BEFORE and during the actual voting.

Funny, how those who expend the most outrage in blaming Kerry never even bothered to learn about what they claim to be oputraged over in the first place.

The hardest workers on the machine fraud issue don't direct blame on Kerry because they know the problem is part of the entire election infrastructure and not any candidate.

[PresidentWar]

195. Ahh, so help Too Late John duck the blame!

And you wanted this guy to be President and Commander in Chief?

[blm]

206. You see facts as something to avoid. You are NOT a machine fraud expert

and you are not an information security expert but you want to believe that THEY are all wrong about the evidence to be had in the machines after the vote because it fits a storyline that you stick to no matter what - - that's usually the tactic of someone who has a motive. Like the way Colson led a team of operatives planting stories about Kerry throughout the media for Nixon.

[LittleClarkie]

79. Nice spin, assholes

He's said this before, about the suppression I mean. Too bad you weren't paying attention.

[savemefromdumbya]

200. yes

[LSK]

81. as I heard Mark Crispin Miller say a few weeks ago...

Kerry knows in his brain that it was stolen, but his heart cant own up to the fact that this could happen in America.

Basically hes been having an internal battle over coming to terms with what happened to him.

[karynnj]

114. That is conjecture

It is more likely that Kerry's brain, heart and gut have the same position, but he understands that the past can't be changed - and the important thing is to fight as hard as he can going forward. If you look at the schedule he has kept since he lost and the number of issues he is fighting on - it's clear he's putting every ounce he has towards making the future better.

I don't understand why he gets far less sympathy than Gore on this. His is the harder case to prove - and it is unlikely not provable. (MCM, by the way, proves his point not by induction or deduction, but by intimidation. He lines up the arguments, than simply say "therefore, the election was stolen". That is not a valid way to prove anything.

[blm]

184. If that's it, then I feel safer that SOMEONE woke up & smelled the fascism

finally. I have to believe he's sharing what he knows with Kennedy, Durbin and others.

[ProSense]

83. Anyone care to comment?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2005985&mesg_id=2005985

[DWilliamsamh]

91. Ever hear of too little too late?

I applaud his and everyone else's efforts to do something to make sure we fix the broken electoral process in this country. There is truly no more important system in need of fixing. Everything else is useless if we don't have free, fair and open elections. But.....

Where was his concern for the rights of voters when he could have really DONE something about it? Instead he made the political calculation that he didn't want to look like a sore loser? Seems to me the guts he showed in Vietnam receded into memory as he got older until his balls shriveled up to the size of Jose Canseco's.

No John, you have risen to the level you are most suited to I'm afraid. He's a great senator with a brilliant mind I think, but he proved he is not presidential material especially in the times we face. We need a leader in the White House. A leader doesn't shrink from tough tasks. To be sure whoever the next President is will have the MOSt difficult task; cleaning up the mess left by the Bush crime family. God help us all if we americans again elect an empty suit.

[blm]

102. Tell me about the battles that brave others have taken on through

their years of public service. Surely you must have some who have relentlessly shown their toughness in mind, especially on election fraud issues.

[DWilliamsamh]

112. I was waiting for that question...

I'm not sure why you are soooo focused on defending Kerry - especially from people who like him but disagreed with his specific actions in 2004 but.....

John Conyers?
Barney Frank?
Bernie Sanders?

All of whom have at least as good a record of consistently fighting for the rights of the people against the corporate interests and the modern Republican party and their coalition of theocrats, cheap-labor capitalists, racists and xenophobes.

Too be sure the folks I mentioned are not mentioned by the mainstream of the DLC Democrats and unfortunately the American people are just too in the thrall of the corporate media whores to ever consider them for the Presidency - but I think they are MORE than adequate answers to your question. Especially John Conyers.

[blm]

145. I would say they are very good, but still behind in the REALLY STICK YOUR

NECK OUT Dept. where the battles taken on were serious works that effected the history books to the degree that Kerry's battles did. You are also not factoring in that the corporate media has never really focused on destroying any of these lawmakers to the degree that both Gore and Kerry were focused on in a negative way.

Both Gore and Kerry won despite being piled on more negatively and more FALSELY by the corpmedia than any presidential candidates in recent history.

That speaks well of both their campaigns and their future performances with all the pitfalls in the corpmedia and election fraud identified beforehand.

[Botany]

95. A little late w/ the barn door John.

[politicasista]

97. Why don't you target Dems that are silent

rather than throwing stones at someone trying to bring it in the open?

[Botany]

101. I live in Columbus, OH

and I worked my ass off for Kerry .... and I know that he was given the data
about many cases of "election irregularities" in Ohio in Nov & Dec of '04 .....
if he wanted to be a leader then was the time .... now it is meaningless.

I stood on the Ohio State Campus on Oct 29 2004 and felt great when Bruce
Springsteen sang "No Retreat, No Surrender" with Kerry beside him .... i thought
I saw a fighter .... I was dead wrong.

[blm]

103. Would you say the same if Gore repeatedly warned of election fraud c2002?

.

[DWilliamsamh]

118. No... because Gore actually faught until the Supremes stepped in.

[ProSense]

123. Not exactly how it happened!

Election Day, 10 p.m.
Networks retract projection that Gore wins Florida; state reverts to too close to call.

Nov. 8, 2:20 a.m.

Gore calls Bush to concede after networks report the governor leads by 50,000 votes in Florida. Networks project Bush to be the winner in Florida.

Nov. 8, 3:30 a.m.
Gore calls Bush back to retract his concession, after receiving reports that the vote difference in Florida is less than 1,000. Networks retract projection that Bush wins Florida; state reverts to too close to call.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/c2k/amazing_race/timeline.html

So Gore, even though he was up by 500,000 popular votes, conceded with 50,000 votes shy of winning the electoral college. He retracted the concession when he realized it was only 1,000 votes.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/c2k/amazing_race/timeline.html

That's a big difference between being down 3 million in the popular vote with a 137,000 votes to make up for an electoral college win.

[DWilliamsamh]

125. But Kerry had the reports of irregularities.

Reports where literally POURING in about screwy process and "malfunctions" in the Ohio election (and others). He never spent one DAY trying to find out if there was anything that could be proved. He simply made a political calculation that it was better for HIM (read: his future political career and possibly another presidential bid) not to suffer the Cries of the right wing that he was a sore loser.

Again, I don't hate the guy and in fact, might even vote for him if he was the best choice I had among Democrats, but he screwed up. He screwed the party and MOST importantly he screwed the people, in the name of future self preservation.

[ProSense]

126. That's not accurate!

I worked as a Green volunteer . . .

on the recount here in Ohio and you're right, Kerry's team was here all the way. In one of the counties I witnessed in, his witnesses worked late into the night with our coordinator and uncovered false numbers that led to the revelation that every ballot in the county had been recounted w/o witnesses between the certified vote and the official recount itself.

< snip >

by ponderer on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:14:12 PM EDT

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/4/23/115230/700/26#c26

Today, Kerry-Edwards filed a document in support of that statement. Most significant, Kerry-Edwards also filed today a separate document in support of our motion for hearing with two critical attachments: 1) a declaration from Kerry-Edwards attorney Don McTigue regarding a survey he conducted of Kerry-Edwards county recount coordinators; 2) a summary chart of the results of that survey (which highlight the inconsistent standards applied during the recount).

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/24/183243/756

http://www.truthout.org/pdf/cobbbadnariktransfertatement22305.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmctiguedecl22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmotionforhearing22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardssummarychart22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardstransferstatement22405.pdf

"In his first high-profile address since conceding the presidential election, Senator John F. Kerry used Boston's annual Martin Luther King Jr. memorial breakfast yesterday to decry what he called the suppression of thousands of would-be voters last November.

"Thousands of people were suppressed in their efforts to vote. Voting machines were distributed in uneven ways," the former Democratic nominee told an enthusiastic audience of 1,200 at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center in South Boston."

"In Democratic districts, it took people four, five, 11 hours to vote, while Republicans through in 10 minutes. Same voting machines, same process, our America," Kerry said.

Snip...

In an e-mail message he sent to his supporters on the day before Congress certified the election results earlier this month, Kerry cited "widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials, and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote" in the battleground state of Ohio.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/18/kerry_alleges_voters_were_suppressed?mode=PF

August 31, 2005

Kerry and Edwards to Stay in Recount Case!!! Trial to Start in August 2006

Don McTigue, attorney for John Kerry and John Edwards, appeared in federal court in Toledo, before Judge Carr, on August 30th, and told the Court that Kerry and Edwards intend to remain in the case.

Judge Carr set an August 22, 2006 trial date.

Additionally he consolidated the two recount cases, Rios v. Blackwell and Yost v. Cobb & Badnarik. He gave the plaintiffs until September 15th to file amended pleadings (plaintiff's counsel had requested an opportunity to streamline their claims).

Judge Carr set a discovery cut-off of May 1, 2006, and ruled that any summary judgment motions must be made by May 15, 2006.

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/08/kerry-and-edwards-to-stay-in-recount.html

http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/122105SenatorKerry.mp3

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/bits/2006_0517_kerry.mp3

[DWilliamsamh]

134. Thanks.... I appreciate the citations.... I concede the point

Apparently I was wrong about the continuing engagement of Senator Kerry in trying to get the process fixed.... However, the fact remains he did not sick the waiting Democratic dogs (in terms of money and lawyers) on the corruption that was apparent in the Ohio election in a timely manner - when the election itself could have been reasonably challenged.. It blunts my anger at him but the anger remains - if in a less burning form.

[nam78_two]

96. Give them hell Senator-give them hell! /nt

[Selteri]

109. WAy too late John, you lost your presidency and showed you

would rather support your frat brother than serve the nation. From me to you John - Sod off! We don't need your kind for leadership!

[PresidentWar]

116. BRAVO.

n/t

[zulchzulu]

130. Change your bong water, dude...

If it's half as cloudy as your screed, I'd suggest giving the old tube a wash.

[Selteri]

180. When he had the opportunity to get elected the first time he proved

that while he may have at one point had something, he is tired and unwilling to be a real fighter. Soory, I voted for him last election and instead of being a fighter he simpered. Rather than facing attacks he allowed chickenhawks to pain him as a coward.

While I agree with much of what John Kerry may be saying he has proven to me that when the chips are down he hesitates. Sorry, I've had one prsident too many who hesitated. That was on 9-11 and I want him fired with that being on the top of the list of why.

Thank you for displaying your Republican choice to attack my choice of free speach for disagreement rather that bringing up an intellectual argument, please, you can blame the other medicines I have in my cocktail. I have stage 4 metasticized appendiceal carcanoma - AKA Cancer - I face my challenges every day and I keep going in spite of them. If I quit like Kerry did I'd have let myself be turned into an invalid. I want a leader who has enough backbone to fight back and a real leader who knows how to make America a strong dynamic and benevolent country, not an empire to be feared.

Please go back to your simple snipes and easy answers though, it is much easier to throw out a generic easy insult that demeans me as a human being without any actual investigation into the reasons behind a statement. It's much easier to live in a world where you don't have to think.

[PresidentWar]

197. Great post. Spot on.

[McCamy Taylor]

120. Never too late to bring public attention to electrion fraud happening NOW.

[PresidentWar]

132. Sure, but don't expect people to....

be placing gold leaf laurels on Too Late Kerry's head, because had he been so gung ho about this issue back in the election, we wouldnt have been socked with four more years of the Bush nightmare. And on that note, I never saw someone throw in the towel so fast as he did. Not to be donning a tin foil beanie, but it was almost TOO weird.

[zulchzulu]

133. Read what John Conyers said about Kerry's efforts...

"Fighting for Every Voter"

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me. As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes...

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

- John Conyers

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000213.htm

[PresidentWar]

138. With all due respect to Conyers,

Who is one of the FEW Democrats taking a serious line against the Bush farce and holding these creeps' feet to the fire, Too Late John simply cannot be brought into this issue without some serious scrutiny by those who would have wanted him to be a vanguard for this in a more timely manner. I'm sorry but he can't duck this. I applaud his speaking out on it, but you can't expect such a person to receive nothing but accolades in light of the fact that his staunch, decisive and unrelenting action on eldection fraud during 2004 may well have saved us from two more years of this fascist bullshit.

Call it tough love. I demand better of my Democrats.

[vcotts]

139. Actually, Kerry took the longest time to concede in any recent election...

....other than '04. And, as someone pointed out above, Gore conceded and then retracted it. Furthermore, Kerry was well aware that the concession is purely manners. If the vote were to be recounted and he had won, the electoral college would have elected him, concession or no.

All the rage here is from expecting Kerry to be Superman. Even the presidential candidate of a party has only so much power. Someone suggested Kerry go after this because he had money and lawyers. I'm not sure what money was legal for him to spend. I do think he realised (it's not like he hasn't been watching this cabal for decades) that the GOP had found ways to suppress voting - which is significantly different than changing vote counts. There is no way to count suppressed votes and change an election. You can file charges and force change in future elections, which is exactly what he did.

The fact that none of the legal actions have been won so far should tell you that " in light of the fact that his staunch, decisive and unrelenting action on eldection fraud during 2004 may well have saved us from two more years of this fascist bullshit" is wishful thinking that could not have come true.

Just because Kerry is more intelligent in his language and doesn't resort to typical macho talk, doesn't make him less effective. It makes him more effective - in the long run.



Ginny in CO

[PresidentWar]

158. LOL, that's some consolation!

It doesn't change the fact that in the end he and other powerful Democrats folded like plastic chairs to the war drum bangers.

[zulchzulu]

164. Welcome to DU!

Nice comments as well... it's as though some people think Kerry should have turned into Godzilla and stomped down to the White House and picked it up, shaking Bush out of the Oval Office and then demanding (with a premordial scream) that the election was stolen...

[zulchzulu]

163. Perhaps Kerry should have transformed into friggin' Godzilla on Nov. 3

Actually, Kerry did win...but being that there wasn't sufficient evidence at the time to prove it without taking months of scrutiny, he had to make a decision.

Kerry and the campaign did actively persue election fraud in 2004. Perhaps you don't remember the hundreds of lawyers and other staff that were trying to find conclusive evidence at the time. I personally met several people who were there before the election to investigate any discrepencies...

It's easy to hiss about the outcome, but it's better to see what has been done since.

[undeterred]

136. IF ONLY JOHN KERRY HUNG OUT AT DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND!

He would have figured it out a lot sooner. :cry:

[laundry_queen]

140. If I'm not mistaken...

some of his family did during the 2004 election.

[blm]

144. He's been saying most of this since Jan2005 and has been adding details as

he learns them. Like he did on the senate floor earlier this summer.

[lonestarnot]

142. Well it's about damn time!

[GusConsultore]

148. Ohio Voting

Kerry's a bit late, but better late than never, I guess. Hopefully it will influence Blackwell's bid for re-election. He is really the new Katherine Harris -- this time with all the Christian ministers coming out to support him, saying it's their duty. Guess he's also getting ready to destroy the 2004 ballots! http://www.miserywatch.com/2006/08/medias_finest.html Good reads

[FighttheFuture]

167. Rip Van Kerry just woke up, eh? Talk about day late, dollar short!

[blm]

182. He's been saying this since Jan 2005 - many times - even on senate floor

The media ignored it every time he brought it up.

[FighttheFuture]

189. BFD! When he had the chance, on $election night, to stand up, he

caved like a cheap house of cards. Ran away! Edwards did not agree! Kerry did not want to push and expose their bullshit. fuck him.

I'm glad he's speaking out in his own, somewhat, inconsequential way. That's all I'll give him, and, frankly, it's the least he can do. He has a very long way to go before I would consider giveing him my vote. Alas, for JK, it it further than Nov, 2008.

[blm]

194. Where did you get that FAIRY TALE? It was the Dem team of ELECTION LAWYERS

who were telling Kerry and Edwards there was no legal evidence to continue in court.

The FAIRY TALE going around that Edwards and Kerry were fighting about it is HOOEY. Kerry and Edwards were BOTH hashing out all the avenues to take with the Demo party team of ELECTION LAWYERS> If they had anything at all they would have run with it - these same team of election lawyers advised Gore that he had a legal case to make and the math behind him - they told Kerry there was no case they could make without some legal evidence to take to a court.

Let's continue using YOUR fairy tale about Edwards - if Edwards believed they had a case and believed that the machines were rigged and should be fought, then WHY hasn't he used his free time to get deeper into the issue of electronic voting machine fraud?

[PresidentWar]

198. Hup - see?? PASS THE BUCK...

I don't let Bushhole get away with that shit....I would expect better of my Democratic candidate.

[blm]

203. HAHAH - by your standard, Bush ran a great campaign, and beat Kerry in

every matchup they had.

By your standard, Bush did it all and didn't have a ruthless, thieving RNC that had worked for FOUR YEARS on their vote suppression, purged voter rolls, and gaining control of the voting machines.

Bush also defended himself admirably when a hostile media tried to smear his record.

Get real - Bush didn't even have to lift a finger when the AWOL documents popped up. He had the media do it all for him.

How did the DNC do? How did the left media do up against the RW machine?

Oh no - - it was ALL Bush and his brilliant debating and accomplished record.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[magellan]

172. You blew it in three posts

FYI, that's no record. But it's nice to see you made use of the spell-checker. Now be a good republick and go back to playing with yourself to videos of Mann Coulter inciting the deaths of fellow Americans, a pasttime I hear all 33% of Bush**'s little neo-fascists are enjoying while he dismantles US democracy.

[bling bling]

171. Why in the world should Kerry pursue this any farther?

If people don't want to support him on this?

What ARE our goals? Sheesh. Do you people want to GET what you want or would rather not get it and just WHINE about NOT getting it (because you couldn't get what you wanted the WAY you wanted to).

-------------

Re-enactment:

Us: Democracy is at stake! Voter fraud taking place. Dem's where are you????

Kerry: Gets voter fraud allegations exposed on CNN prior to the 2006 elections.

Us: Uh, screw you, dude. Thanks but no thanks man. You were toooooo slow. Don't do us any favors. Fuck it. They'll steal THIS election too, and you can thank yourself in part for that. Serves you right Kerry for not acting earlier when you should have (yeah....like another stolen election ONLY affects Kerry, it doesn't affect US at all. What's that saying about cutting off the nose to spite your face).

But whatever. Sometimes I think we'd rather bask in our self-righteousness and point out how much everybody else sucks while we push them away than ever actually get anywhere or get anything we want. So in that sense I guess we DO get what we want. Nothing at all.

[blm]

183. Best post of the day - too many check their common sense at the door.

.

[demo dutch]

179. Too Little too late!

[CollegeDUer]

188. Kerry is the BEST at doing the right thing too late

He has made it a fine art.

[FighttheFuture]

190. Well put!!!

[blm]

193. If you believe that, PROVE IT - use the congressional record.

.

[blm]

192. Prove it. Use his record and prove what you claim. I say you're no student

of history.

[PresidentWar]

199. It's unreal to watch anyone defend THAT characteristic of John

isnt it.

[blm]

204. Yeah - only people who have READ the congressional record defend Kerry.

And we like to mock the folks who think the documents collected at the National Security Archives are a good read.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

208. National Security Archives

?????????????? Is that where Condi's office was?

[blm]

210. Not a chance - the BFEE loathes the very existence of the NSA. It's a

collection of every government document that has ever been made public - it's at GWU.

[savemefromdumbya]

202. but wait a minute, the general public don't know anytihg about this fraud

we knew about it but the general population don't. John please enlighten them.

[ChiciB1]

205. I Want To Post Here... But I Think It Needs To Be Brief So As Not. To

sound useless. However, I will say that I had waited for years & years for Kerry to run, I supported him with all my heart and probably still do. But given the atmosphere of Politics today, I can neither denounce him nor can I say Bravo!

America has been Ass-wiped by corruption!!! It can't ALL be blamed on Kerry/Edwards, but we need to fight the fight Kerry didn't. But I think I actually do UNDERSTAND how they got squeezed!!!

Pink Floyd... The Song... MONEY! That about sums it up for me!!