I Just Saw a Totally Depressing Commercial re: Health Care

[The Cleaner]

Man sitting at his desk says, "My boss just told me I have to pick up my own health care plan." Commercial goes on to describe some kind of personal health care plan that "starts' as low as $125. Yeah right, that pricing is probably for an eighteen year old. Typically individual plans are prohibitively expensive.

This is all so depressing. What happened to the day when "trustworthy" companies were decent enough to help their employees out by providing full healthcare coverage? And now some are actually DROPPING their health care coverage altogether? That's outrageous!

A system gone awry. We need a national health care plan. Otherwise it'll become a system where only the rich have healthcare.

[MrModerate]

1. Those "decent" companies are going bankrupt . . .

As the insanely out-of-control healthcare system (and particularly the no-value component represented by insurance companies) sucks down more and more money.

This can't go on.

[Quantess]

2. No, it can't go on like this. I'd be interested in what Health pros say.

I would like to know what doctors think of our current health care situation. I would guess that doctors are getting less business, and more deadbeats who don't pay their bills.

[OzarkDem]

16. Doctors thought Medical Malpractice reform would work

Let's face it, health care policy isn't their forte. They will pay for their lack of experience, as the docs and the health care system are going to be the ones who have to shoulder the cost of uncompensated care.

[elehhhhna]

50. Did they? Or were they looking to just avoid suits?

[sandnsea]

18. I guess it'd be better for you if people just died

You have $40,000 for a 3 day hospital stay??

[Quantess]

20. Did you respond to the wrong post or something?

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

23. What choice to those "deadbeats" have?

Don't go to the doctor or die.

[Quantess]

24. Wow, you really are making judgements about me, aren't you?

I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

My intent was to find out how health professionals are impacted by our lousy system. Get a grip.

[sandnsea]

25. You chose the words

"more deadbeats who don't pay their bills." Ain't no judgment about it, it's right there in black and white. They're your words, don't turn your judgmental attitude around on me.

[Quantess]

27. People can't pay their bills. The broken system is to blame.

Sorry you misunderstood my point. Really, really, misunderstood and misjudged me. Sheesh.

[sandnsea]

28. Then don't use words like that

And then act the victim when you get called for using cruel words in the first place. Sheesh indeed.

[Quantess]

30. Deal.

I won't use the word "deadbeat", if you don't post cruel accusations like your post #18, which was completely uncalled for.

[sandnsea]

34. Don't think so

I will never give someone a pass who thoughtlessly slanders whole groups of people and then cries victim when they get called on it. I doubt you're sincerely sorry about it either, since you're more concerned over your hurt feelings than what you said to cause pain.

[Quantess]

37. I'm sorry I offended you.

I thought about this interchange, and was wondering why someone would be so extremely offended at what I wrote. So, I'm thinking this hits close to home for you, so to speak. For you (and many others) it's a really personal issue. And there I was, posting a dispassionate, purely intellectual question. And there you are, maybe in a bad situation because of the horrible health care situation we have in this country, thinking I'm a jerk.

I have no health insurance. I once skipped out on an emergency room bill myself, a few years ago, so I'm not on any high horse. I've had friends who have used a fake name when they went to the ER. This just isn't working. It's a f*ing disaster. People not being able to pay for their medical care is a terrible situation. People are going without proper health care (myself included, at times) because most of us can't afford it. And if it's a dire situation, people will be indebted, maybe for life. The health care crisis is crucial to me, it's crucial to my aging parents, and I worry for myself and my loved ones who have no health coverage.

So, I'm sorry for unintentionally offending you. I'm really not the horrible person you may think I am, and I do not see people who have staggering medical bills as anything but victims who get kicked while they're down.

(damn my colorful word choice!)

Either we can call a truce, or, you can go on thinking I'm a jerk.

[sandnsea]

40. I don't think you're a jerk

I think you said a jerky thing, that's all. I think a deadbeat is someone who intentionally chooses not to pay bills whereas health care bills are so outrageous as to be impossible to pay. Two completely different things. I don't think it's appropriate to ridicule people in that situation, that's all.

[Quantess]

47. Thanks. I know you are probably going through a lot.

I'm just guessing that you or someone close to you is suffering.:grouphug:

The health crisis is one of this country's biggest problems. There is such an extreme disparity between what is possible and what is affordable.

[sandnsea]

49. That's rich, lol

It's my fault that you said something jerky. Wow. It is rare that I see someone go to such length to avoid taking responsibility for what they say. Just really incredible.

See ya.

[Quantess]

51. What?

What did I ever do to you?
You're awfully mysterious.

Have I seen you before? I think you're really short & stocky, have long, vividly colorful hair that stands straight up, and you're made of plastic. Your bellybutton is prominent. Usually a stark naked plastic doll with a wide face and bright pink hair.

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. Not being able to pay one's bills in a system that is broke, does

not make one a deadbeat.

[Quantess]

46. read my post #37 (no text)

[InkAddict]

52. Maybe those deadbeats were just told that the boss

just changed his/her mind and wanted you gone yesterday, that your hours were cut in half, that there won't be reviews or raises this year, and that the fully paid HC was now mostly your problem and the copay was going up. Maybe, once upon a time, they were just average good people.

[Quantess]

53. read my post #37 (no text)

[Quantess]

54. Read post #37.

By the way, I'm an ink-addict, too.

[ItNerd4life]

3. No-value component...

in relationship to the insurance companies. I find that thinking very intriguing as I work in the manufacturing arena and Lean concepts. Lean manufacturing relates to value and non-value added pieces of the manufacturing process.

I don't know if the insurance companies are non-value added because how is it different than car, auto, home, and life insurance? Are these types of insurance non-value added?

I really like the way you phrased the 'no-value', it shows a unique and interesting way of thinking.
:toast:

[annabanana]

6. While insurance may not have reached "no" value yet..

The more cherry-picking of clients they are allowed to do... The more "pre-existing condition" clauses their lawyers can fashion... The more lawyers they hire to keep people from collecting on their premiums

... . the closer they get....

This is a criminally under-regulated industry.

[theophilus]

7. I view insurance comps. as worse than "no" value. They are helping

jack up health care costs by paying for unnecessary procedures and twenty dollar tylenol, etc. The goal is affordable health care. The insurance comps. sit in between the sick person and the doctor. They are choosing to insure fewer and fewer people so that affordable health care can be obtained. Premiums are going higher and higher to the detriment of business and potential sick folks. I think all of that insurance infrastructure needs to be yanked out. Doctors and hospitals must decide on reality based prices for treatments, etc. The government must step in to help those who cannot afford high costs. Yes, that will involve a Medicare like infrastructure, I'll admit. But I also believe it can be done efficiently and fairly if we just put our minds to it.


Car insurance and house insurance is getting ridiculous, too. More and more are being refused coverage. The end will be that middle class and below will just have to have simple housing that isn't worth much, if the trend continues. Insurance comps demand too much bottom line because they are too greedy, as is most big corp business in this country now.


The goal is good health care for all that is affordable. In times past you just went to the doctor and paid the bill. The bill wasn't outrageous. If you had to stay in the hospital you could afford it. The situation has become a for profit nightmare. Doctors are suffering. Patients are suffering. Just about everyone is suffering except the Insurance comps and big pharma. I guess hospital CEOs, etc. are doing pretty well, too! Anyway, the value is negative because of greed and cold heartedness.

These things need to be changed for the better or we are not worth a dime, imho.

[MrModerate]

8. No-value because healthcare should not be regarded as . . .

commodified risk. If you're lucky and careful, you may never file an auto, fire, or home-loss claim. You will, however, incur healthcare costs. In fact, if you don't incur SOME healthcare costs (for preventive care) your ultimate healthcare costs will be higher. Or you'll be dead, probably in a rather expensive way. Not to mention the specialized costs associated with children's care, which I can unapologetically call "investments."

Some things shouldn't be left to the market forces to regulate, and healthcare is one of them. Healthcare is more in the nature of "public health" -- traditionally a primary responsibility of governments and not individuals. Insurance companies add no value because they are an impediment to the provision of care, they introduce inefficiency, they extract profits (which is inappropriate in a healthcare context, IMO), and they mask the true cost of providing care.

Additionally, insurance companies have been trending to the dark side for years, as shareholder concerns have increasingly trumped customer concerns to an increasing and depressing extent.

I should also say I'm opposed to for-profit hospitals, for roughly the same reasons.

[ItNerd4life]

21. To the 3 people who answered above, another question.

I love your answers and your thoughts. Thank you! I understand what you are saying how health insurance is different from auto, home, life. I don't like that insurance companies can pick and choose who they are going to cover. I have property in Florida, insurance is now becoming an issue.

My question: I don't like strictly government run programs, I believe fair-market working in the structure/laws/rules established by the government can create solid programs with the efficiency of the marketplace and the social/economic guidance of the government. My example I like to use is European education. Money is given to the parents and they decide which schools the kids attend. Competition among schools with social/economic guidance of the government. Do you think this is possible with healthcare?

Okay, I lied. Another question as well. Do lawyers have as much a negative impact on healthcare as the insurance companies? According to my M.D., he thinks they do. What are your thoughts?

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread. I believe our current structure sucks, but having relatives in Canada, I have issues with total government control because the government can become corrupted and inefficient as well.

[MrModerate]

41. Not a quick response, but a response . . .

Certainly government programs can be ineffective. No question there. The frightening range of quality in public education -- from best in the world to a complete embarassment -- is proof of that. But for the most part, bad schools (really bad schools, not mediocre ones) come about when the community they serve is dysfunctional. Dysfunctional communities are a larger issue -- albeit one that seems to be getting increasingly out of our control.

I'm not familiar with the European education system you describe (while I've travelled extensively there, education was either provided by the US -- when I was an Air Force brat -- or, for my kids, paid for by my employer), but I can tell you what would happen in the US: a huge wave of wacky and ineffective charter schools would spring up, religious schools would proliferate a hundredfold, and secular, community-building and nation-sustaining public schooling would wither. I have no beef with religious schools, I just don't want to pay tax dollars to support the indoctrination of the community's children into a given faith -- especially at the expense of the public schools.

There are so many school districts that do an excellent job that I don't think we need to turn public education over to the private sector.

With regard to the private sector handling healthcare, I can point to one example -- Kaiser of Northern California, my health care provider for the last 15 years (when I wasn't overseas). A non-profit "true" HMO, Kaiser was able to provide quality care at a reasonable price, while offering its physicians a reasonable salary and workload (all things are relative, of course -- it was still fairly expensive, but not so much so that between my employer and myself the costs were an undue burden); providing care on an urban campus where you could literally walk to every specialist the medical world offers, and yet with a personal physician who actually knew your name and had some interest in the continuity of your care. Also, with substantial buying power, Kaiser was able to twist Big Pharma's arm on drug prices and keep 'em within reason. I never paid more than $10 for any prescription, regardless of what the medication was. Kaiser is not perfect (they recently had a big screwup with their kidney transplant administration that may have cost some people waiting for transplants their lives), but on the whole, a very reliable outfit. Government and the insurance companies have no role. So it can be done.

With regard to lawyers and their impact on healthcare, that's largely a red herring. And -- surprise! surprise! -- much of the deleterious effects attributed to lawyers come in the form of increased INSURANCE costs. Insurance companies use the personal injury lawyer boogieman to justify insanely high malpractice payments, and to scare individual doctors into overtesting and dropping out of certain fields of specialization (such as obstetrics). Sure there are sharks, shysters, and abuse of the system. But nothing compared to the abuse from the insurance companies themselves.

[ItNerd4life]

58. Excellent response, thank you.

I don't like the idea of private schools being funded either, I had brothers who attended them. I like the way you stated your concerns and issues. Thanks again for giving me more to think about.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. You're wrong about European education

Each country is different. But I don't know of any country that has the kind of voucher system that you describe. The overwhelming majority of students in Europe attend state-run schools, usually with a very centralized curriculum. Some countries fund religious-based and other private schools, but if someone has been telling you that all parents in Europe get money to send their kids to any school they please, then they're either lying or seriously misinformed.

As far as doctors are concerned, my brother is one, and lawyers aren't even on his radar. However, he absolutely hates insurance companies and the way they try to wriggle out of paying even routine medical expenses. Did you know that there are companies that devote themselves to processing insurance claims for doctors, because the options are so complicated?

[ItNerd4life]

59. I will investigate further

Yes, I was bad. I should investigate and get a total understanding of how European students and schools are funded.

I know there are companies that go after unpaid claims, but not just to handle the claims themselves. The more complicated things are made, the more they cost. You would think a 'progressive' insurance company would fight this trend and keep costs down. They would attract more business.

Thanks for the well thought out and provocative response.

[OzarkDem]

15. They're not going bankrupt for that reason

and cutting benefits instead of controlling costs and increasing the size of the risk pool isn't the answer, is it?

[MrModerate]

42. Well no -- before they actually go bankrupt . . .

They attempt to control costs by means both good and bad (preventive care, stop smoking programs, lifestyle counseling, high-deductible plans coupled with HCSAs, etc., etc.). . . and then dump their healthcare programs for workers. Which degrades their workforce and makes them less able to compete.

THEN they go bankrupt.

OK, sure, that's both a simplification and an exaggeration, but far from untrue.

The problem is larger than individual companies -- even giants -- can handle. They can't significantly hold down healthcare costs, but they can reduce (actually reduce the rate of increase of) what they're willing to pay into the system.

Costs driven by an aging population, expensive new technology, longer lifespans, insurance company greed and inefficiency, and drug company greed and market manipulation are issues that need the help of the federal government to solve.

[BigMcLargehuge]

4. They just effectively dropped mine by "re-formulating" the

Employer percentage -

Net result -

August cost of Health Insurance for the McLargehuge Family -

$235 per pay period (paid every two weeks) - total $470 per month.

MD/DD visit co-pay - $20

September cost of Health Insurance for McLargehuge Family -

$385 per pay period (paid every two weeks) - total $770 per month

MD/DD visit co-pay - $60

Net result -

McLargehuge Family has cancelled Health Insurance.

[acmejack]

10. I hope you are ok.

What can you do? Stay safe McLargeHuge family. Man this is so screwed up. The only way I have any is from the VA, well I got medicare too now cause I am all the way disabled now. You guys are young I hope?

I realize this is how it is but even so it sucks so bad. It just has never been this way in my lifetime. Jobs came with health care at least anything other than a construction job and even good construction jobs, union ones had that, too. This bullshit and it past time to fix it. This only going on because people like Frist and their insurance buddies are getting fat off of us!

[BigMcLargehuge]

12. We have tried to enroll the kids in the NH Healthy Choice Plan

but it takes 45 days to review the application, and the kids need to be continuously uninsured for 6 months for eligibility.

[Momgonepostal]

32. We went that route

Initially, we didn't feel like we could just let the kids be uninsured, but my husband later lost his job and therefore the health coverage, so after a few months, we enrolled the kids in CA's version of that same program. It was the wisest financial decision we ever made. We've been on it for just under 3 years and during that time my kids, who used to rarely get sick, have had some health issues come up that would have cost a fortune if we'd had to pay for it out of pocket. Between new glasses, dental care, asthma, three ER visits, and one helicopter transport to a children's hospital 100 miles away, we probably would have been billed at least $50K for these past few years.

Some private companies also offer their own version of a lower cost plan for children. You may want to check around if something like that is available in your area, if you have not already. Kaiser Permanente is one.

Good luck, you guys! :grouphug:

[OzarkDem]

13. No!

Try to hang onto it, any way you can. You never know what will happen.

[BigMcLargehuge]

35. 770 bucks is over a third of my monthly income

and with $60 co-pay, I might as well pay the whole thing and put the money in savings.

[sandnsea]

19. Well gosh

Just "choose" to spend that $300 on health insurance instead of oh, say, food - you make your "choices" doncha know.

I was just told that by a friggin' state social worker a couple of days ago. :eyes:

[Not_Giving_Up]

5. My favorite is the one that says

"If you don't have health insurance, stop neglecting your family"...then it goes on about their discount plan (not insurance) that will enable you to go to the doctor at a discounted price.

So, if you're not insured, you are horrible for neglecting your family! No sympathy for people who can't AFFORD insurance (or their crappy discount plan), or whose employers don't offer it.

[gatorboy]

9. My favorite is the one where the Republicans in office,

Tell me they can't afford universal healthcare for my family.

Then I wonder, "Who's paying for you and your family's healthcare, Mr. Republican congressman?"

Oh, yeah....I AM!!! :mad:

[Cleita]

11. Before I got Medicare I had one of those put out by Blue Cross.

My deductible was $3,000 that only covered 80% of what they approved covered made sure I never made a claim. Basically I paid for my own medical care and the insurance premium too. I only kept it to get in the door of a hospital if I needed to.

However, the way the deductible worked was this way. If my office visit was $100, they approved maybe $60 and 80% of that sixty dollars or $48 was applied to my deductible even though I was out of pocket responsible for the $100.

Also, the $125 a month premium was only the first year and then my premium rapidly rose each following year.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. I just had to raise my deductible to $5,000 because the

cost of the monthly premiums was rising to unaffordable levels. (An acquaintance did the same thing at the same time for the same reason.)

And get this, even after I pay $5,000 out of pocket, the company STILL covers only 80%.

With these insane deductibles and premiums, the insurance companies are actually DISCOURAGING people from getting preventive and diagnostic care.

A poster above referred to Kaiser-Permanente. I had them in Oregon for ten years, and they were great, even if their prices rose sharply in the last year. Once you paid your premium, there was NO deductible, NO excluded conditions, $20 co-pay for an office visit, and $25 each for all tests.

Unfortunately, they don't operate in Minnesota. :-(

[Cleita]

45. Exactly. It's really out and out scamming. I hate insurance

of any kind but especially health insurance because it's so wrong to make a business out of what is a basic human need.

[OzarkDem]

14. Pricing most Americans out of the market for basic health insurance

The push is on to gut state and federal insurance regulations that protect consumers.

IMHO, the GOP and insurance companies are going to artificially inflate the cost of most health insurance plans, using that as a justification to gut consumer protections, leaving those who aren't in the highest income brackets to pay for insurance that covers little, if anything.

Wal-Mart insurance.

[CBHagman]

26. The administration is bad-mouthing employer plans.

It's not getting enough media coverage, but one of the ugliest aspects of the Bush administration is the extent to which it is gunning for employer-provided plans (HMOs, PPOs) and encouraging HSAs (health savings accounts).

Bush's economic adviser Allan Hubbard has actually stated that people who are in employer-provided plans think their health care is free and therefore are in danger of overusing it. He compared it to providing free groceries and noted that if you provided free groceries, people would be picking up lobster and steak and other luxury items.

I am in a PPO through my job and know what I spend yearly on the premiums. Believe me, Allan Hubbard, it's not "free." And health insurance is my air and water, not my steak and lobster.

I have heard a number of administration figures speak about health care in this fashion. What the Bush administration primarily advocates for reducing health care costs is the following:

1. Allowing small businesses to band together to get into health care plans.
2. Pushing health savings accounts (which have a high deductible and still require a premium).
3. Putting a cap on settlements in malpractice lawsuits. Bush uses the term "junk lawsuits" most of the time.

The problem with getting any kind of universal health insurance system in this country is that there are so many powerful interests arrayed against anyone who proposes changes. Moreover, it's easy to engage in demagoguery on this particular issue (If I only had a nickel for everyone I've talked to who gets nervous about the notion of "socialized medicine" or invokes horror stories of waiting periods for treatment). Some people simply fear change.

But I don't believe any of the Bush proposals will deal with the long-term issues, let alone keep prices down.

[Iris]

17. Think that's depressing? I was doing research after a friend was diagnose

d with cancer. In an article written for nurses who care for cancer patients, treatment options were discussed. There was a sentence like, "Of course, treatment options vary according to factors such as age, relative health of the individual, insurance contraints, and stage of the disease."

fortunately, my friend is young and has excellent insurance. (If there's anything fortunate about being diagnosed with cancer)

[meldroc]

22. I'm currently one of the lucky bastards

in that my employer's awesome and provides great insurance plans for us, and I'm only paying about $20/mo for myself, and that's to upgrade from the regular plan to the deluxe plan.

But when I was unemployed for three years ending almost two years ago, I was uninsured the entire time. That's not a good feeling knowing you're one health hiccup or ER trip away from bankruptcy.

So now, I'm a flaming fucking pinko socialist commie when it comes to health care issues. I don't care how it's done, and I'll be more than happy to support a single payer system, but we've got to make sure every single person in this country, rich or poor, can get decent health care and not worry about how they're going to pay for it, or have bloodsucking collectors or lawyers breathing down their neck demanding $80,000 by next Tuesday.

[Cleita]

29. Not only that, it's a good move for the health care providers too.

If it's done like in other countries, they can bargain with the govt. for their fees every year that are satisfactory to them. As it is now Medicare and other programs can set the fees without any input from the medical community. Then they don't have to worry about getting paid, like doctors and others do now when they are at times refused payment by the insurer or when the patient can't pay because of reversal of family fortunes, often because of a result of the disease.

[Ino]

31. I had an individual plan with United Healthcare

After raising my premium three times in one year (to the tune of $120 a month more), they announced they were dropping all individual plans. Tough luck!

[Momgonepostal]

33. You know what I don't get?

People who are against the idea of a national health plan say we can't do it because it's too expensive.

Private companies are increasingly either dropping their plans or passing on higher insurance costs to the employee, because it's too expensive.

If the the government of the US, one of the richest countries in the world and US companies, which are some of the wealthiest ompanies in the world can't afford to pay for health insurance, how does anyone expect the people to be able to shell out all that money? Regular people can't afford to pay premiums that are as much or more than their rent or mortgage. Ridiculous!

[sandnsea]

36. Can't raise public salaries

because what has to be paid for health insurance is so expensive. Where are our local and state tax dollars going? Health insurance, that's where.

[Cleita]

38. If they checked their facts then they would know that most

countries, like Canada, who have national health care are able to deliver the same health care for approximately for half the cost of what our health care costs here in the USA. The reduced administrative costs and cutting off the profit margins make this possible. Also, they are able to cover all their citizens not just the lucky ones who are fortunate enough to have health care.

[Quantess]

55. As though prison is cheap for taxpayers.

Damn Libs think every person should have health care.

[Recursion]

48. Well, if you think about it...

...refusing to have a national health care system is one of the simplest ways to solve the social security crisis...

:sarcasm:

[NMMNG]

56. That's what the Rethugs want

A nation where only the rich have healthcare, and education, and decent homes, and healthy food to eat, etc.

Because to them the rich are the only people who deserve these things.

[Nobody]

57. Health care is NOT a luxury

If we could sell it to the rick like this maybe we could have our national health care that isn't tied to insurance plans.

Healthy workers are productive workers and they don't make you sick along with them.

Imagine that you are a deserving millionaire. You run out of something and have to run to the local 24-hour grocery store. You are standing in line and your cashier, who has no health insurance and low pay and no sick days has strep throat. Next thing you know, after cashier has handled money you handled, breathed on you, spoke to you, touched your hands while handing you the money (as they are often trained to do), you wake up three days later with a horrifically painful sore throat. Guess what you now get to see the doctor for.

Not realistic enough for you? Suppose you are a deserving millionaire. You send your personal assistant to get the whatever it was that you ran out of. This person encounters the same sick employee. Your personal assistant gets sick, spreads it through the servant quarters. Now servants in the 1800s never got more than a half day every other week. You're more generous than that and give them sick time to use whenever. You no longer have a personal assistant to do your shopping for you and you wander into the local retailer which has the same no insurance, no sick time policy. And low wages to boot so the employee can't stay home and avoid spreading it around. You catch the flu not long after that. You might even get strep throat on top of it because remember your personal assistant? That person ran out of sick time and really shouldn't be coming back to work for you.

Do we as a society really want mini-epidemics spreading through our households that could easily be prevented by the simple expedient of making it reasonable for an employee who works with the public to stay home when sick? How about making it possible AND ENCOURAGING sick people to stay home? Strep throat, which I used as my example doesn't go away on its own. You DO need to see a doctor. You DO need meds.

Insurance companies are notorious for refusing to cover relatively inexpensive preventative care. I know people who were diagnosed with cysts that were going to bloom into full blown ovarian cancer. (by the way ovarian cancer is almost always deadly) It was detected early enough that the cysts weren't malignant yet. It cost 100% out of pocket to remove the cysts. But the same insurance company would have paid for the chemotherapy later when the cysts would have become cancerous and spread.

How much money would it have cost the employers if even one of them had waited due to not being willing to go into hock? The lost time from being sick from the chemo. (Chemo is very hard on the body). The lost productivity due to not being at full strength. The cost of finding and training a replacement.

[gulfcoastliberal]

60. DuPont dropped is pension system effective 1/07, so have Boeing, Lockheed,

etc even as they make huge profits. This includes eliminating retiree health care for all hired after 1/07. Even DuPont employees already in the defined benfit plan will get dramatic cuts after 1/07.

So it all boils down to this:

401k: here's your piggy bank, good luck living off it when you retire.

Retirees (and active employees: see Whole Foods) health "savings plans": Here's your piggy bank for medical care, good luck living your life off it.

What people don't seem to grasp is there is no "free market" in health care. If you need it, you're a captive audience. "Shopping around" for cheaper health care to spend your "health savings account" on is a sick joke.

Funny how the executives get to keep defined benefit and cadillac coverage health plans.

I worked at a Toyota dealership just long enough to get health insurance, then I quit. Costs $350/mo for my cobra single coverage. And I just got a new card - copays up $5 (to $25) for office visits, up $25 (to $75) for urgent care, and up another $25 for ER ($125). My drug copays went up at least $5 per tier.

So I have to see the doctor once a month because I get a schedule 2 drug - DEA doesn't allow refills. So that's another $60 per month - $25 for the office visit, $35 for the rx.

Thanks Harry & Louise! Although I do partially fault Hillary for making everything so secretive when she was working on the single payer plan.