Need Plan B? He's not gonna sell it.

[n2doc]

Wednesday, August 30, 2006
Need Plan B? He's not selling
New FDA rule not changing morals of pharmacists

By CLAUDIA ROWE
P-I REPORTER

In the mind of pharmacist Jim Ramseth, there is a moral hierarchy when it comes to preventing pregnancy: Selling condoms and birth control pills is OK. But the emergency contraception known as Plan B is not, and Ramseth refuses to provide it. In recent months, the genial 65-year-old owner of Covington Pharmacy has fought hard for the right to make professional choices guided by such personal views. And while his stand on the morning-after pill may be a minority opinion in Washington -- where more than 2,000 women get Plan B directly from their pharmacists each month -- many of Ramseth's colleagues agree that they should not be forced to provide medication with which they have moral or ethical objections.

"Everybody draws their own lines," Ramseth said. "And if a person's purpose is to kill a fertilized egg, then I disagree with that. Regardless of where the practitioner draws that line, they should have the right." Plan B, essentially a high dose of the same ingredient in regular birth control pills, works by preventing ovulation and may stop fertilization or implantation of a fertilized egg. If a woman is already pregnant, the drug has no effect. But to Ramseth it still veers too close to abortion.Like similar bodies in Texas and New York, the Washington state Board of Pharmacy initially supported pharmacists' right to decline providing certain drugs based on personal belief but after receiving thousands of outraged calls and e-mails, decided to revisit the issue at its meeting Thursday.

On Tuesday, Gov. Chris Gregoire threw her weight into the mix by proposing a compromise that would allow druggists to avoid filling prescriptions as long as customers were able to get medication from someone else at the same pharmacy.
more:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/283106_planb30.html

[Ian David]

1. Will he sell cigarettes to pregnant women? n/t

[ComerPerro]

2. most certainly

[Fierce]

3. If selling Plan B is part of your job, and you don't want to sell Plan B,

then maybe you're doing the wrong job. I would have liked to have become a Marine for a variety of reasons, but I have this little hangup about war, so I didn't.

[Ian David]

9. The Christian Universities are training a whole generation of pharmacists

This is intentional.

They want to put their own people into place and infiltrate the medical establishment to impose their will upon us.

[ComerPerro]

4. I think this should be encouraged.

No pharmacist should have to dispense medication that he thinks is morally wrong, or provide medicine to anyone he thinks is immoral.

For example, I would be all for pharmacists refusing insulin and heart medication to Republicans.

After all, they live an immoral lifestyle and make immoral decisions. They shouldn't be rewarded for those decisions, and the pharamacist shouldn't be forced to encourage their lifestyle.

[TahitiNut]

25. Absolutely. And people in business should be able to choose

... WHO they do business with - and be able to refuse to do business with people whose religions are opposed to their own. Thus, a Christian should be able to refuse to sell medicines to Jews, and vice versa. Yep. That's the way "it should be."

Excuse me for a minute ...
:puke:
OK ... all better now.

[ComerPerro]

27. exactly.

[Nobody]

52. In that case....

The vegetarian wait staff working at your local steak house would be perfectly justified in refusing to bring meat to the table. Or the member of the Church of Latterday Saints would be justified in refusing to serve alcohol to anyone though the establishment sells it.

Why should pharmaists have all the fun?

[Warpy]

5. He'd find his plate glass window

etched with "MEN ONLY" if I lived in that town.

Any pharmacist who refuses to DO HIS JOB needs to have his license pulled no matter what reasoning he uses.

It's as simple as that. Either do your job or find another line of work.

[insanerepubs]

17. Why

Would you destroy a persons property just because you disagree with them? If you don't like your neighbor are you going to "key" their car?

[Warpy]

31. No, it's a warning to half the population

that the man inside will refuse to do his job to provide them health care.

Think of it as a "beware of dog."

[OldSiouxWarrior]

6. It's over-the-counter. Doesn't need a pharmacist.

Same as buying aspirin. Even if it is a behind-the-counter medication (To prevent shoplifting), the clerk at the cash register can get it off the shelf.

This story is a tempest in a teapot.

[Warpy]

8. Uh, who do you think orders all the OTC medications

in most stores? It's not the perfume counter person.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

11. Does the guy own the place, or is he an employee?

If he owns the place, then a woman (Or guy buying it for a woman)will simply go elsewhere.

If he is an employee, then another person gets it.

Since it is OTC, one may see supermarkets carrying it, and convenience stores. After all, they carry condoms.

[n2doc]

22. He's the owner n/t

[Warpy]

32. What makes you think a lot of people in this country

have "somewhere else" to go?

People who live in small towns and rural areas are pretty well trapped by the distance and the price of gas.

Bottom line: do your job or find another line of work. Any pharmacist who refuses a legal prescription or an OTC medication like Plan B needs to lose his license, period.

[niyad]

57. I believe the ruling said it was to be carried at pharmacies only., and

quite frankly, since this person doesn't even seem to understand the basics of plan-b, his license ought to be yanked for sheer ignorance.

[Fierce]

10. It is if you're older than 18.

17-year-olds can buy aspirin, but not Plan B.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

12. Age is irrelevant to the discussion of the pharmacist.

And it will be a very rare 17 yr old that doesn't have a trusted 18+ yr old friend. Nor is the pharmacist needed for that. The cash register clerk will check ID, just like with cigs and beer.

[Ignacio Upton]

33. The age mark should be 17, if there has to be one

17 year olds are old enough to enter college if they are on the younger side of their grade. They may also be in relationships with 18 year olds who many only be a couple of MONTHS older than them.
But will somebody PLEASE tell this person that emergency contraception is NOT abortion?!?!?
http://www.go2planb.com/ForConsumers/Index.aspx
Plan B doesn't even WORK if you are pregnant? If the religious right wants to crack down on the number of abortions, then they should be championing this. Of course, that would conflict with what they feel is their divine right to meddle in our bedrooms.

[Fierce]

41. Age may be irrelevant to the discussion of the pharmacist,

but I was responding to your statement that it's an over the counter medication. It is if you're older than 18.

And yay for the 17-year-olds with trusted older friends. Too bad for those who don't have them, I guess.

[depakid]

47. Not in Washington State

There's no age limit- for the simple reason that there's NO rational or scientific basis for an age limit.

Plan B is safe and effective for all women of reporductive age.

As to other states, teens are the very population that has the greatest need for emergency contraception- and the least ability to get a prescription filled.

[Fierce]

48. I didn't realize that about Washington State.

Thanks for the clarification, and good for them. I totally agree with you about teens needing E.C.

[iamjoy]

29. Not Completely OTC

It's available without a prescription, which we often refer to as "over the counter" - however, it is my understanding that it will be stored behind the pharmacy counter with other prescription drugs & pharmacists are supposed to verify the age of the person purchasing it. So, it isn't going to be next to the condoms and other "family planning" items.

I hope we can reach some sort of compromise on this.

[Crowdance]

7. His customers need education about his anti-choice views

As do the customers of other anti-choice pharmacists. I won't patronize a pharmacy that doesn't recognize my human rights. I'm thinking what's needed are organized information squads that can hand out flyers and discuss the facts about Plan B to customers as they enter a store like this one. These squads could actually do the work of surveying a store's pharmacists to determine whether they'll distribute the drug. We could post the results on the Web so that customers can check a pharmacy before patronizing to determine whether they're one that respects its customers--or not.

Does this idea have legs?

[WhiteTara]

13. I wonder if he refuses to sell Viagra

prolly not.

[Dora]

21. Good question.

Perhaps someone could call them to ask?

[Mr. Blonde]

14. It's his pharmacy

He can sell whatever he wants there. It would be much different if he were an employee and not the owner.

[TahitiNut]

16. I disagree. He operates under a PUBLIC business license

... which is granted by the public IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST. Absolutely nobody forces him to go into business or into the drug business specifically. As long as he's granted a public license, he's obliged to operate consistent with the public interests.

A business license is an entitlement, not a right. The very same argument as you've ASSerted ("it's HIS business .... he has a 'right'") was ASSerted by 'old south' business owners in refusing to serve "colored" people. It's as ethically bankrupt now as it was then.


Here's a clue for you - If someone is granted a 'right' only if it can be bought (i.e. OWNERSHIP) then it's NOT a 'right' - it's an entitlement. Entitlements are creations of government, backed by armed force; they are NOT 'rights.' The idea that someone can only exercise a 'right' if one can BUY it is at the root of the corruption in the reich-wing.

[Mr. Blonde]

36. But how many have to be involved before it is officially the

public interest? If he were operating in a red state where we can assume that most people are against Plan B can we say he is then operating in the public interest? Safe to say most there would not want it available because they think that is what is best for their comunity?

Are we also to require private attorneys to defend anyone who can pay their fees? Seems that is much the same, they are also licensed by the state. But they can object on moral grounds.

[readmoreoften]

38. You're applying community moral standards to a woman's body.

Should a woman not be able to get an abortion because the community she lives in is anti-choice? If you think so, then you are against Roe v. Wade.

If a young girl goes to this pharmacist to get Plan B after she's been raped, you think the community gets a say in how she handles the situation?

[Mr. Blonde]

40. Moral standards aren't much different from public interest

from how I see it. Community morals are how a society feels it is best to operate and best serve the public interest.

Just like I feel a woman should be able to get an abortion, I feel that someone who doesn't agree with something shouldn't be forced into doing that. Especially when there are others in the same line of work who don't have those moral objections, or, at the very least, work for someone who doesn't have those moral objections.

[TahitiNut]

42. Does that mean he could carry it but only sell it to victims of rape?

How about incest? That's what your argument implies. I doubt there're many products in his pharmacy/store that can't be used for some "immoral purpose" and he apparently admits carrying products that can be used to accomplish the same purpose, except that they require a prescription.

The large majority of attorneys and law firms do "pro bono" work and their professional ethics and "officer of the court" roles actually require it if called for in order to actually realize the "right to an attorney" where and when otherwise unavailable. That's precisely the situation here - whether a pharmacist should be required, as a condition of their license, to ensure that people have access to the drugs they need - either by provindg them directly or by identifying a reasonable alternative source.

[Nobody]

53. And how would he know?

And what rape victim or victim of incest should be required to share this extremely personal information with someone who does not have the need to know.

[TahitiNut]

56. Exactly.

:shrug:

[FlippyDoo]

51. Actually you're not really correct

in your opinion of the business license. A business license is the issuing government body's way of getting their cut. It is not really a public interest. It is more like a tax. In a lot of cities/counties the cost of a business license is based upon either yearly income or number of employees.

His PROFESSIONAL license could be considered as being issued "in the public interest"; however, the governing body probably doesn't care so much about what he's not selling as they do about whether or not what he IS selling is being sold within acceptable legal and health boundaries.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

15. Soon Convenience Stores will carry it. It's Over-The-Counter.

You don't need a perscription to get the stuff. C-stores will see a market in having it available at 2AM when most drug stores are closed.

This guy will have no effect at all, except on himself. He will pat himself on the back, and women that need it will get it at supermarkets and C-stores.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. from what I have heard

the law will prohibit it from being sold in C-Stores and the like...will have to be in a pharmacy...

sP

[nosillies]

30. You are correct.

It will only be sold in businesses with a pharmacy. No convenience stores, and only in grocery stores or markets that also have a pharmacy -- not in stores without.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. He can't be forced to sell it

and I can't be forced to shop there. It's the beauty of capitalism.

[depakid]

46. Actually, he can

He's a member of a regulated health care profession- and state law requires that he dispense drugs that serve the needs of his local population.

Ethically- and maybe legally- he can no more withold plan B than a scientologist can withold psychiatric medications.

[Lars39]

19. If his expertise is so out of date that he is unclear

that a fertilized egg doesn't mean jack without implantation, he needs to lose his license or be mandated to refresh his knowledge periodically. Of course, the real purpose is to redefine abortion, so he thinks his religious beliefs trump my right to my medicine.
There should be zero compromise on this issue.

[Dora]

20. Crappy opinion, but it's his right: he owns the store.

If he were an employee, then it would be a different matter entirely.

If he is not required by law to make this available, then the choice to sell or not sell this legal-and-helpful-to-women-and-families-everywhere-medication is his.

It's not a choice I agree with, but it's not my choice to make. I encourage citizens in that community to support a pharmacy more aligned with their personal values.

[TahitiNut]

28. Bullshit.

Do you think he also has the 'right' to refuse service to "colored"??? Same ethically bankrupt argument.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2011715&mesg_id=2012004

[Dora]

34. I read through the thread after I posted.

And while I appreciate your opinion and I've agreed with many of your posts that I've seen, I do disagree with you here. Your vehemence is noted.

The Plan B contraceptive is not a drug typically required for survival - like insulin, or antibiotics, etc. If this pharmacist was refusing to sell a drug that would mean the difference between life and death, then my opinion would be different.

Of course, there will always be an exceptional circumstance to illustrate the life/death relevance of this drug, and I would not disagree with the importance of those exceptions (rape, incest, carriers of genetically-determined life-threatening disorders). Nonetheless, as the private owner of his own pharmacy, he has the right to determine what he will/will not carry for sale in his pharmacy. Those who need this drug will be obligated to find another pharmacy that will sell it to them. I'm certain that many pharmacies will.

As I said in my first response to the OP, I don't agree with his choice.

You can tell me my opinion is bullshit, but the only thing that will change is my opinion of you.

[Mike Daniels]

35. He's refusing to carry one particular product.

He's not refusing to let people into his store.

Your comparison is crap.

[Nickster]

23. Just another step down that slippery slope. The sentence that struck

me was about Plan B being too close to abortion for his liking....how long until condoms are too close to abortion for his liking? Then what's the next step from there?

[TahitiNut]

26. I'd be willing to bet that if Jim Ramseth were a gun dealer ...

... he'd ASSert that same "moral hierarchy" and he'd NEVER sell a gun to someone who might later kill anyone with it. (He could tell by their skin color or whether they were Muslims.) Yep. Gotta love that "moral hierarchy."

[noonwitch]

37. His business/his choice

Really, how much longer is the guy who owns the little neighborhood pharmacy going to last, anyways? With CVS/Walgreens/Rite Aid/ popping up on every corner, it won't be long until he either retires or is forced out of business.

[cgrindley]

39. Forcing someone to sell a product is fascist

If he can be forced to sell a product in his store, then what's to stop coke from forcing schools to sell their products? I'm all for Plan B's availability, but essentially giving a corporation even more rights is hateful.

[sandnsea]

43. Blastocyst worship has got to end

It's just a friggin' clump of microscopic cells. If we don't worship the egg and we don't worship the sperm, there is no reason to enter into blastocyst worship nano-seconds later. We don't mourn every menstruation which could carry a blastocyst. The problem these fundienuts have is the audacity of a woman making a choice, superceding "God's will", particularly locking man out of that choice. There's nothing more to it and I wish people would stop buying into the notion that there's a moral debate over blastocysts at all.

[boolean]

44. PLAN B IS A LARGER DOSE OF THE BIRTH CONTROL PILL!!!!!

How in the fuck is this guy even a pharmacist? He has no problem selling birth control pills, which are simply lower doses of what Plan B is!

God! Why does the media report this garbage? His entire position is hypocritical and stupid. At least if he was also against condoms and other methods of birth control he'd be consistent.

[boolean]

45. My favorite quote:

"I know almost everyone who comes in here, and most of my regular customers are not going to ask for Plan B because they don't want to admit that they need it," he said. "They'd be embarrassed."

OMG!!! I had SEX last night!

[Lars39]

49. I wonder how many prescriptions he fills for viagra, though.

[lies and propaganda]

50. i love how pharmacists prescribe Vicodin, Valium, Soma, etc

as if people dont down a bottle of wine to get hammered with them. But whose concern is taht,, pssst.

[Fountain79]

54. I have to agree with some here....

It's his store and it's his money then yes it's his right to sell or not sell something. I don't agree with why he is doing it but it does come down to personal choice on account of the owner. You can't force a restaurant to serve a certain food item and you can't force a store to sell a certain item, not by government intervention anyway. I would organize a boycott of a pharmacy if I felt I disagreed with their practice and force them to reconsider. It's amazing how businesses will reconsider when their bottom line is threatened.

[never_get_over_it]

55. If he won't sell this than he shouldn't be allowed to sell any

other medicine take his fucking license away from him....

[NMMNG]

58. He demands the right to make professional choices guided by personal views

Does that mean that I can refuse to provide services to Fundamentalist Christians and Neocons?

What's good for the pharmacists is good for me, right?