"The sacred site of 9/11"???? John King just called

[Skidmore]

the site of the WTC this in a lead to a story about Nagin's trip to NYC and his apology.

I'm just fed up with this crap. First, are all sites where large numbers of people have died over the centuries in this world considered "sacred"? I don't think so. A lot of people died there and it was a huge tragedy. It does not make that site "sacred" though. Certainly, by that standard, NO is "sacred" ground too.

Second, Nagin should never have apologized for trying to give voice to his frustration about the rebuilding of NO

[ginnyinWI]

1. Sacred--according to Webster's

Sacred--adj.
1.set apart, esp. for the service or worship of God or a diety
2.hallowed by religious association
3.having a religious, not profane character
4.to be held in reverence
5.inviolate

The only one that remotely works is #5, but it's a hard sell. I would not say #4, because it would mean we were holding a killing site in reverence.

[Junkdrawer]

2. You need a hell of a lot of faith to believe the govt's 9/11 story...

so the site MUST be sacred...

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. Remember Lincoln's speech at Gettysburg?

We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.

If NO puts up a memorial to her dead, that would be a sacred site as well.

I understand the politics of your objection - but from this NYer ... stick it where the sun don't shine.

[uppityperson]

4. people who were killed in an attack are not "heros", are victims.

that is one of my gripes about this also. Yes, heroic acts may have been done, but you do not become a "hero" by being murdered, you are a victim though.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

9. They were heros, definetely heros.

Some people do heroic actions and they are heros. Some people just get killed because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, they are victims. Not sure why you write "again" asking me to stuff my "criticism" up my ass.

[Fredda Weinberg]

23. The OP was the first offense - yours just dittoed

The WTC site means something to those who lost loved ones - and to the rest of us who watched, the scene of noble and yes, heroic efforts on the part of our first responders. If a reporter calls it a sacred site ... yeah, even to a secularist like me, it resounds.

If those who had died had been just the occupants, you may have been right - they were victims. But 343 firefighters and paramedics lost their lives that day, along with 60 NYPD and Port Authority officers. They weren't just doing their job ... their job *is* to face the danger on our behalf.

So forget politics for a moment, if you can, and try to respect their sacrifice.

[Skidmore]

25. The OP says

"horse hockey pucks."

By your logic, everytime a firefighter dies going into rescue someone in a burning house, then that site becomes "holy ground." Honoring heroism in the line of duty is very much different than canonizing someone and sanctifying ground. They died doing their jobs, and the potential for that sacrifice is part of the job of a first responder.


And furthermore, the OP could care less if you are offended.

[Fredda Weinberg]

35. Sometimes, the people they save don't deserve it

Maybe it's the difference between losing a member of your family - and a catastrophe that wipes out hundreds at a time. Yeah, it's something like that.

Of course, the first responders were "doing their jobs" ... but they're also a tight-knit group that suffers each loss. There's bunting right now draped over headquarters for two who gave their lives last week.

If you still had a shred of humanity, you'd realize why the lost of hundreds has a greater impact. But as you said, you couldn't care less.

[Skidmore]

43. That's not what I said.

As for my humanity and the suffering I've seen and known in my life, you cannot speak because you really don't know the first thing about it. My commentary is on a nation too uneasy with its own mortality, too quick to label any death or sacrifice as heroic or sacred rather than recognize it as part of the human condition, and too quick to assume that their individual pain is so unique that, by definition, greater than that someone else's experiences. Everyone experiences loss and death, and at times, it is seems beyond comprehension. However, it is not beyond the human condition and it is not uniquely the individuals. It is collectively human in whatever form it comes.

Are the losses of "hundreds" in NYC really any more tragic than the loss of those in New Orleans, Darfur, Rwanda, or any other areas of the world where great numbers of people died senselessly in catastrophic events as victims and in rescue attempts?

[Fredda Weinberg]

44. You didn't post, "They died doing their jobs ...

... and the potential for that sacrifice is part of the job of a first responder."

Oh wait ... you did.

I'll agree with you that "heroism" is overdone - but to quote Schopenhauer, "That experience, therefore, must be the metaphysical ground of ethics and consist simply in this: that one individual should recognize in another, himself in his own true being."
"The Foundation of Morality"

Does that make first responders, the ones who are willing to run into a burning building to save our asses, more moral than the rest of us? Maybe ... maybe not. But by anyone's definition, they are heroic for the ultimate sacrifice they're willing to make. There are easier ways to make a living - I assure you.

And yes, there is a difference between those who suffer and die as a result of accident or natural catastrophe - and those who deliberately risk or sacrifice their lives for their fellow human being or a meaningful cause. And just as Gettysburg is hallowed ground, so is our hole in the ground.

[uppityperson]

33. Some are heros, some are just dead

as I have said, several times, just because you are killed in a manner does not make you a hero. It makes you dead. If you engage in heroic acts, as many did, as many do, yes, then they are heros. I think perhaps you have not read my other responses such as the one you are responding to, in which I state "They were heros, definetely heros. Some people do heroic actions and they are heros."

[Skidmore]

34. Ooops, uppity, sorry. I responded to the wrong post. I was

responding to *23, I thought. Apologies.

[Skidmore]

10. That's a tad over the top and fraught with

hyperbole.

That is not what was being said.

[Marr]

11. Do you seriously think people here don't consider

the firefighters who ran into the buildings to be heroes?

[Fredda Weinberg]

20. Tell it to uppityperson ... I responded to that post n/t

[uppityperson]

22. I think you must have missed my response above, #9

They were heros, definetely heros.

Some people do heroic actions and they are heros. Some people just get killed because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, they are victims.

[Fredda Weinberg]

24. And the site of their selfless sacrifice is sanctified

Let the media call it holy ground - because if we are going to live in a civilized society, we have to value this behavior.

[uppityperson]

31. I am not sure what your gripe is with me. I value heroic behavior

Of course heros should get notice, should be valued. My complaint is that everyone dies, and whether by illness, accident, murder, terrorism, etc, no everyone who dies is a hero only because they died. Heroic acts make heros and those heros should be valued and appreciated and thanked. Not sure what your gripe is with this, or why you make rude suggestions to me.

[Fredda Weinberg]

36. I have no feelings toward you - it was your post that gave offence

Again, thousands of innocent victims died that day ... and considering the site sacred, even to this atheist, is proper and respectful.

[uppityperson]

39. Ah, not offended by me but my post.?"stick it where the sun don't shine."

Was that for my post or for me, since I am the one who wrote it?

We agree that victims died, and heroes died. My comment was that dying does not make you heroic in and of itself. That is all. Please quit being offensive.

[CJCRANE]

47. Ok, so it's sacred...

but what did those people die for?

According to the offical story two Saudi pilots knocked down those buildings, with money transferred from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Pakistan. Their so-called figurehad, bin Laden is still a free man, and residing in Pakistan.

So, what was there sacrifice for and why are American troops dying in Iraq? (a country which had nothing to do with 9/11).

[Fredda Weinberg]

49. Can we leave politics out of this for once? It's a mass gravesite

I don't know about you, but when I'm in a cemetary, I try to walk between the graves, not on them. Of course, it doesn't matter to the dead, but the respect I show their final resting place is a reflection of the consideration I try to demonstrate to the living.

Maybe it's just me ... but I understand the feelings of the victims' families. Yeah, I'd like a more convenient transit hub, but somehow, that got worked out. And they had nothing to do with the delays in rebuilding - the insurance companies can be blamed for that.

[CJCRANE]

51. Plenty of the families want to know what happened too...

if you remember, it was because of the victim's families that the 9/11 commission was set up.

If you don't know what happened then how do you know what you're commemorating?

[CJCRANE]

52. If you have no interest in why they died...

that to me is much worse disrespect.

[alarimer]

32. You sound like Rumsfeld

I guess we better not say anything about 9/11.

[Fredda Weinberg]

37. Ah, flame-bait ... from an anonymous source, no less

I've done more than my share for progressive causes - do an Internet search if you're curious.

[C_U_L8R]

5. I live a block away

and there's nothing sacred about it.
5 Years later, It's still a hole in the ground
thanks to these republican clowns.

The only thing the pit memorializes
is the fact that the republicans
have screwed the pooch so bad
on this war against Al Qaeda and
Osama is laughing at them.

You've heard of a Bronx cheer?
Well here's a Battery Park Razzberry..
Spit... Phooey.

[bpcmxr]

16. Amen from a neighbor

225 Rector Place

[C_U_L8R]

18. cheers neighbor

:beer:

[KharmaTrain]

53. That's A Nice Looking Fence They've Got There

When I was in Manhattan last April, I did the "Pilgrimage" on the Subway from Midtown to Wall Street...it was a waste of time. I'd rather see a hole in the ground...at least there would be something that would remind me of what occured on the site. Instead it was like any other construction site...nothing to really see other than some small plaques. And in a way, I'm glad it's that way.

Is this sacred ground? More New Yorkers would consider Yankee Stadium to be sacred ground.

Cheers...

[Ignacio Upton]

6. Unfortunately, the uber-memorialists will disagree with you

A group of memorial activists and 9/11 families have made all sorts of ridiculous demands for how the site should be preserved. For example, in addition to their desire not to have the footprints of the towers built on, they wanted NOTHING in the way of major underground infarstructure to impede on those footprints. For example, they tried to stop the Port Authority from modifying the tracks to their PATH station (those tracks were there BEFORE 9/11!) And whenever they don't get their way, they complain to the media or file of lawsuit to stop construction.
While I am with the family activists 100% on issues like the 9/11 Commission and compensation for rescue workers afflicted with health problems, this small, vocal group is part of the reason why nothing is getting done over there (in addition to, of course, the collective egos of Pataki, Silverstein, Bloomberg, David Childs, and Daniel Libeskind.)

[Fredda Weinberg]

28. You realize, of course, the insurance companies

haven't paid a dime yet?

Would you care if someone paved over your mother's grave?

[treestar]

7. I hate that kind of attitude toward 911

Making it into a holiday, too. "Patriot Day." The days we celebrate should be positive, July 4, Sept. 17 (Constitution Day) not wallowing in victimhood. Let's not take it that far.

Geez, Aushwitz would be "sacred" too. People need to get a grip.

[dipsydoodle]

15. AS far as I'm aware

Aushwitz was left pretty much "as is" as a memorial. Maybe all memorial sites should be left "as is" too. I think at best the Twin Tower site should just be left as a park. It seems however the usual coprporate greed that will decide otherwise.

[Fredda Weinberg]

30. You realize, of course, there's a memorial at Aushwitz

http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/start/index.php

And the 27th of Nissan is Holocaust Remembrance Day. I remember my father's entire family - and nearly everyone on my mother's side too.

Get a grip? I could respond to that, but it would violate DU rules.

[SoCalDem]

12. The letters are right.. just arranged incorrectly..

should be "scared" ..This admin insists that we remain scared...

[Sydnie]

13. If that were the case, all of Europe would be a sacred site

from one battle or another.

[Fredda Weinberg]

27. You think there are no war monuments in Europe?

A very partial list - from WW I:

Jonchery - Monument to War's 1st casualty, Cpl. Peugeot

"Old Armand"
Cemetery and Memorial

Battle of the Windmill Memorial at Montreux-Jeune

1st Division Monument at Vignuelles

Mont Sec US Memorial

US Cemetery at Thiacourt

Faubourg Pave National Cemetery

Andre Maginot Monument

Wounded Lion Monument marking German high water mark

Memorial Museum

Voie Sacree Monument

Site of Lost Battalion at Charlevaux Mill

Sgt. York Monument - Chatel Chehery

Cheppy - Missouri Monument

Pennsylvania Memorial
In Vicinity: Crown Prince's Dugout

Montfaucon US Monument

Romagne-en-Argonne US Cemetery

British Memorial To Missing
Cathedral

US 28th Division Monument at Fismes

Gallieni Monument

Battle of the Marne Monument; 1 mile n. of Meaux

Retreat from Mons Memorial at La Ferte S. Jourarre

[Sydnie]

41. I didn't say there weren't any monuments

I said it would all have to be looked at as a "sacred place". Big difference. :eyes:

[libnnc]

14. It's not a "sacred" site--it's a CRIME SCENE

A crime scene that has never been properly investigated.

And alas, all the evidence is gone. Forever.

Ground Zero is a CRIME SCENE

[H2O Man]

17. Sacred Ground.

Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman also called it "sacred ground." It is one of those concepts that makes perfect sense to some, and doesn't to others. The same applies to NO.

I agree with you fully on Nagin.

[WinkyDink]

19. Lincoln used the term "hallowed".

[Silent3]

21. I wish they'd simply rebuild the site just like it was...

...with some structural modifications to make the buildings stronger. The best damn memorial I can think of is to rebuild the site almost exactly as it was. Maybe make the twin towers one story taller (111 stories instead of a 110) as a symbolic gesture.

[gatorboy]

26. That would make Iraq REALLLLY sacred!

We should probably leave then....

[Junkdrawer]

38. But if we don't make it even MORE sacred, then the sacredness...

goes away. Or at least I think that's what the sacred decider said...

[mitchum]

29. Well, the anniversary wallow is coming up in 10 days

[Blue_In_AK]

40. I'm just wondering why we don't commemorate the day

that the Oklahoma City federal building was blown up. Also a "sacred day," I would assume. (But not nearly so politically useful.)

[kitty1]

42. NO should also have some kind of monument erected...

for the people who perished waiting for help that never came.
To die at the hands of your own government is an unbelievable tragedy in itself.

[Philosoraptor]

45. Ask the Navajo about sacred sites

[Philosoraptor]

46. Holy sites can often be death traps, look at the middle east.

[Skidmore]

48. Amen.

[REP]

50. The House I Grew Up In Was on a Civil War Battlefield

All the houses in a part of Kansas City are built on the site of the Battle of Westport. The house I grew up in was undoubtedly built on ground that had been drenched in the blood of war dead. Just because people died there - horribly, in great numbers - does that make that land "sacred ground"? If simply being a place where people died, most land would be 'sacred sites' and covered with teddy bears and candles, not houses and businesses.

I cannot tell you how deeply the events of 9/11/01 disturbed me; I can't even stand to talk about it. But calling the site 'sacred' is at best maudlin.