Isn't complaining that you lost a promotion to someone who is bilingual

[RB TexLa]

the same as complaining that you lost a promotion to someone who is computer literate?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Pretty much

Bilingual skills are an asset in today's economy.

[Selatius]

2. It's getting to that point in this country

If you want to live in certain parts of the country, you almost have to learn Spanish.

[skooooo]

3. personally I think it would be good...

..for Americans to learn a second language. We've basked in ignorance long enough, and we don't have much to show for it.

[GirlAlex]

8. Who decides though

I chose to become proficient in French, learned some Danish and German, picked up some Spanish and Polish because of where I live.

I'm not going to let another group of people determine what the second language is because they refuse to learn/use English, that is pure unadulterated crap.

[EFerrari]

9. So, how many Hispanics do you know that have "refused" to

learn English?

[GirlAlex]

12. A couple

And I actually witnessed a Polish immigrant making a big stink about how Polish and English were the same thing at the Secretary of State when I got my Driver's Licence...It didn't endear him to people's hearts.

[EFerrari]

15. That's shocking. I hope you're carrying a contact number

for Homeland security so you can turn these traitors in.

[GirlAlex]

18. Securitty walked him out

It's a common courtesy issue - we are under no compulsion to allow boorish ingrates to dictate how things will be.

[EFerrari]

21. Especially if we can't understand a word of their funny talk.

That would be really awkward.

[Beausoir]

43. Snerk.

You so crazy.;-)

[Telly Savalas]

23. I agree.

If some whiner is going to through a hissy-fit because somebody isn't speaking English, we shouldn't have to bend over backwards to cater to her or him.

[rockymountaindem]

53. You Gott-Damn Canadian!

Is that what they tought you at U of T?!?! I'm appaled :)

[Marr]

64. I don't understand- "Polish and English are the same thing"?

They shouldn't even be similar since they're not in the same language group.

[Nikia]

66. Some immigrants don't make an effort to learn English

Yes, I have personally known a few.
I know that some Americans living in other countries don't try to learn to speak the language of that country either.
It doesn't make me hate them. I just think that they are being unwise and limiting their oppurtunties, both economically and socially.

[EFerrari]

74. Language acquisition is a major undertaking for most adults.

I have known many people who refrained from speaking bad English out of a desire not to offend but I have never met anyone who refused to learn English out of a desire to impose their own language on American culture.

/typo

[Cleita]

90. There is half a truth there. All immigrants who have to work

under an English speaking supervisor, know enough of the language to hear it and know what the supervisor is saying, but may not speak it as well and are afraid of saying something in case it comes out the wrong way and creates a misunderstanding.

This is why many people who have English as a second language often want to use a translator so that the precise meaning of what they are saying is understood. It's not because they refuse to learn the language. Most of them are struggling in night school to do so.

[Karenina]

110. There is a difference between

passive and active language. Language acquisition is a fascinating study. American ex-pats are WELL-KNOWN in these parts for their lack of language skills. It's NEVER so simple as "refusing" to learn a language. If one is immersed in a culture that does not include one's mother-tongue, accommodations ARE MADE, recognized or not. Going from one article to THREE is a monumental task for an adult, particularly when a correct sentence cannot be structured without the article. Ya gotta be hard-wired for that shit. That said, LANGUAGE is a living thing.

I used to think Remzi's mom spoke NO GERMAN. She's from a tiny rural village in Turkey. During the World Cup, I watched a game in her living room and was SHOCKED when my ears finally recognized that she spoke a Turkish/German dialect to her friend. She's been here for decades and has gone through her children refusing to speak Turkish to her. Her language has evolved into this mish-mosh of structures and vocabulary that no expert in either language, but anyone well-versed in both could decipher.

Americans tend to be so silly and arrogant about language. ENGLISH IS LINGUA FRANCA on this planet at this point in time, not threatened in any way. But as Carlos says, Englisch, she no one language mon, she many, many language.

[LostinVA]

133. Boy, that poster didn't last long...

[AZBlue]

187. 100's

I run across them almost daily.

[Bucky]

203. Yes, but can you talk to them?

[AZBlue]

232. I could talk to the ones who speak Spanish, since I'm fluent,

but I won't. If they can't be bothered to speak English, I guess they don't need our services that much.

[elehhhhna]

37. Do you live in NYC or Chicago? lmao

BTW, an you cite ANY examples of people who REFUSUE to learn/use English?

[newyawker99]

41. Hi GirlAlex!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[niyad]

61. welcome to DU--you seem to really have an issue with people coming

to this country who don't speak the language. I wonder why that is. as an immigrant myself, I did learn this language, as well as the other three spoken in my home.

What bemuses me is the vast number of "english only" or "english as national language" people who have demonstrated that they cannot speak or write their native tongue proficiently (everyone here remembers the idiot with the "respect are language" sign) you, at least, demonstrate a reasonable proficiency in this language, which is unusual in those presenting these arguments.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Who is refusing to learn English?

Better question - who is offering to teach English to those who don't speak it??

[treestar]

115. It's not really a matter of that

It's a matter of having to or not.

Surely if you move to Holland you have to learn Dutch, to Russia, Russian, to Chile, Spanish.

If you are going to move to the US and you speak something other than Spanish, you have to learn English. But if you know Spanish, the pressure to learn English is not as great.

[Karenina]

118. Errraaa... If an Ami moves to Holland

Learning Dutch would be an advantage, but NOT a necessity. They DO speak English there. Even little kids.

[mcscajun]

125. Unless of course, you plan on staying there...

PRAGUE, April 5, 2006 (RFE/RL) -- Dutch Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk says there are over 600,000 people in her country who don't speak proper Dutch and are mostly unemployed.

Verdonk argues that the Netherlands can no longer afford to welcome immigrants who will not integrate into mainstream society, which is why she has advocated a new restrictive visa system.

Under the new policy, which went into effect last month, would-be immigrants seeking a residency visa will have to pass a "civic-integration examination" before they arrive in the Netherlands. Applicants will have to pass a Dutch-language test administered at the Dutch Embassy in their country of origin. One Dutch analyst says, "it's more a measure of controlling immigration than of promoting integration."

They will also have to take an exam testing their compatibility with Dutch liberal values. The exam includes a movie featuring homosexuals kissing and a scene at a nude beach. The movie emphasizes the point that this is all part of normal life in the Netherlands.

(snip)

The Netherlands is not the only European country that has begun to restrict immigration or citizenship only to people it sees as culturally or economically desirable.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/04/2752a95e-e5f6-4886-a65c-75618628a283.html

[Karenina]

128. There are different standards

for Americans. If you are an AMERICAN granny who has taken up residence with relatives in the Netherlands, this writ has NOTHING to do with you.

[mcscajun]

129. I wouldn't know about that, as I'm not a grandmother.

nor do I have relatives in The Netherlands. Hell, I'm not even a mother.

All I know is I can't move there. (not that it's high on my list, but hell, I can't even think about immigrating to Ireland, 'cause my Irish relations are too far back (you need a parent or grandparent born there to qualify, unless of course, you happen to be independently wealthy or are lucky enough to have a critical skill and get a job offer.)

[roody]

145. United States people move all over the world

and do not learn the languages there. I was just in Panama where they build gated residential developments of houses much bigger that the average Panamanians. I heard many people speaking English.

[MUSTANG_2004]

55. Why the aggressive tone?

I think learning more languages is good too, but I wouldn't say Americans have basked in ignorance and have nothing to show for it.

Go to India where most everyone speaks 2 or 3 languages and see what they have to show for it compared to us.

[Karenina]

210. Methinks your dry humour

has whizzed by too many!!! :rofl:

[skygazer]

80. Years ago, French was required in High School

It was considered the international language and you had to have it to graduate. By the time I got into High School, they'd dropped that requirement (as well as the Latin requirement) and you could choose to take or not take a language if you wanted.

Living in California, I wish I spoke Spanish fluently - I envy those who can converse with others in their native language - like all the people I work with who talk to me in English.

[Selatius]

162. Spanish and French appear to be the most offered in high schools now

Either one is good, but there's more practicality with Spanish for obvious reasons. French is good if you want to incorporate Europe into your life at some point down the road, and I'm afraid that's going to become a bigger fixture in the minds of people if Bush or somebody else goes off the deep end.

[Tesha]

227. It'd be good for lots of 'Murkin Morans to learn a *FIRST* language! (NT)

[treestar]

116. I don't agree with that

But there is a lot of marketing to the Spanish community. Not that they will never learn English. It's not an either/or situation, just marketing to them in a way meant to please them. Corporate America strikes again.

[Deja Q]

161. Precisely.

[Deja Q]

160. Or Indian. And we'd all be the better for it;

I get paranoid when people speak dialets I can't understand. Especially when you catch them staring at you while they're talking.

I know enough Spanish to get by, and given where I live I'm amazed I need to use it. Mind you, I've seen signs of illegal immigrant activity too (never before have I seen a white honky employee go to the back of his truck after parking at Old Junkfood Buffet restaurant, unlock the rear door hatch, lift the door up, and watch as three Spanish men jump out of it. :wtf: It wans't a moving van either; it was a truck for a landscaping company. Again, :wtf: ) Couldn't the men have fit in the passenger cabin rather than the cargo hold?

[Karenina]

202. You would NEVER SURVIVE here!!!

Deutsch, she no one language, mon. SHE MANY, MANY LANGUAGE!! My elderly neighbors had NO CHANCE with my Tante Hilde's Hessisch, any more than my boyfriend (who was born and raised there) did. Language is a NUMERO UNO discussion in the pubs, at the parties and in the workplace, whether it be the various forms of D'Englisch (it varies according to one's native tongue. There are also RULES... i.e. Borrowed Englisch Verben are used in the infinitive ONLY) or the media driven corruptions. The difference here is, we are FASCINATED by it rather than IN FEAR of it and discuss it ad infinitum. I find it all quite FUN!!!

[GirlAlex]

4. Not really

All business, private or public, should be conducted in English and English only otherwise it's confusion.

An excellent analogy is if people/businesses decided to use an alternate currency other than the dollar... it's legal, it's also a really stupid thing to do.

Societies only work if certain basic precepts are adhered to even if they have to be enforced by threat of force.

[Selatius]

5. Money and language aren't the same, though

Even in predominantly Hispanic communities, American dollars are used. Your analogy doesn't hold up.

[EFerrari]

6. That's what we need. Real language pollice!

I'm bilingual. They can come and get me first. :)

[mitchtv]

220. Me next

I have been biting my tongue. but Ya basta pinches huevones

[EFerrari]

223. You made me laugh, mitchtv.

:)

[elehhhhna]

7. Are you suggesting that threat of force should be applied by

the state when citizens speak other than English?

[GirlAlex]

10. No shoes, No shirt, No service

It really is that simple...If I walk into a store without shoes, they can kick me out, refuse to service me. If I make of issue of it, they call the cops and *I* am the one that gets the ticket.

[EFerrari]

11. Yep. Good bye First Amendment. We didn't need that one, anyway. nt

[GirlAlex]

14. First Amendment gives you the right to be rude too

and I will treat the offender accordingly....they get nothing.

[EFerrari]

16. They get nothing? Nothing at all? Nada?

Oops!

[Telly Savalas]

24. "Nada"?

This is a ENGLISH message board, so people should speak ENGLISH here.

The first amendment was written in ENGLISH and therefore only protects free speech in ENGLISH!!!!1111

[EFerrari]

27. Sometimes, I just can't help myself. Maybe it's being raised in

California.


Damn!

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Are you series?

:rofl:

[elehhhhna]

34. No mas, sfexpat. No mercy, either. That's for wimps, sissies, and

the French.


Gosh, get with it.

[skooooo]

100. spoken like a true democrat

(not)

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blonndee]

19. WTF? How does what you said even apply?

And BTW, welcome to DU. Aren't YOU a breath of fresh air. :eyes:

[elehhhhna]

33. Would you make it illegal to do business with tourists? Naturalized

citizens? Multilinguals? Deaf-mutes? Visiting International Dignitaries? Actors? Musicians?

Would you criminalize all such business transactions or throw them a few bones...say, let them patronize Emergency Rooms? Legal services? Pharmacies? Grocery stores? Libraries?

What about Churches? They're conducting Gods business.

Uh oh. It's really not that simple!

Further, your shirt & shoes analogy is not relevent. Retailers CAN kick you out & refuse service, but the operative word here is "CAN". They are not, however, required by law to do so. There's a big, huge, glaring difference between "can" and "must", dont' you think?

I hope you are very young &/or sheltered, GirlAlex. You will find DU both challenging and enlightening on many levels.

Looking forward to your reasoned response ~

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Non English speakers don't wear shoes?

I am not following your argument here. :shrug:

[sandnsea]

32. I took Canadian in Montana

I worked in a hotel about 60 miles from the border, we took Canadian all the time and *gasp* were expected to have the mental capacity to calculate the exchange!!! All for minimum wage, yeeha!

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Even in China? LOL

So it is now stupid to spend Euros?

[ulysses]

95. wtf?

Societies only work if certain basic precepts are adhered to even if they have to be enforced by threat of force.

"Speak English or we shoot you"?

:freak:

[mcscajun]

102. That's about it. Crazy, ain't it? Side note --

Don't you find it "quaint" that this definition of the word "enforce" is considered "obsolete"?
4 obsolete : to effect or gain by force

[ulysses]

106. that is odd...

:headscratch:

[SmokingJacket]

98. Absurd. Business crosses borders these days.

Being bilingual is extremely advantageous to anyone working in practically any field. I wish I was.

[LWolf]

103. I'll be sure to let my employers know that.

Then they can drop all the programs, employees, and law-abiding procedures we use to try to communicate with all the non-English speaking families we are required by law to serve. I'll just tell my non-English speaking students, in English, of course, "We only use English at school. Otherwise it's all confusion." I'm sure that will mean something to them.

:eyes:

[ovidsen]

17. How about higher pay for bilinguial government workers?

That's what's on the table in Hilton Head, South Carolina:

Town to reward Spanish-speaking workers
BY TIM DONNELLY, The Island Packet
Published Thursday, August 17, 2006
Comments (68) Add Comment

Employees at Hilton Head Island's Town Hall soon will have the chance to cushion their paychecks if they learn to speak Spanish -- a sign of the town's increasing need to adapt to the growing Hispanic population.

As part of its efforts to improve relations with the Hispanic community, the town is setting up an incentive program for employees at Town Hall and in the Fire and Rescue Division who can demonstrate the ability to speak, write and understand Spanish. The program, which would add $1,200 in annual salary, could be in place by late fall or early winter, said Nancy Gasen, director of human resources.
http://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/story/6031961p-5295604c.html

As you can see from the comments at this web friendly newspaper site, this proposal is not going unnoticed.

[cynthia]

177. It makes sense

Anyone who has an additional skill to add to the efficient functioning of the workplace deserves a bit extra in pay. In my place of work, we needed a person who was fluent in American Sign Language to work as my assistant. I pushed for and got her a bump in the pay scale to "bilingual assistant" so that she was paid as much as someone who speaks any of the other languages we need.

A skill is a skill. Where's the problem with paying a more-skilled person more?

[TreasonousBastard]

20. Of course! This all comes back to...

the immigration hysteria, but it's much more important than that.

Like it or not, we live in worldwide economy where we will run into someone who doesn't speak our language. In northern NJ it would be conveneent if you spoke Japanese because little outfits like Minolta and Sony are up there and there is a steady stream of Japanese travelling back and forth and they don't all have the time or ability ot learn English. Sony and a few others insist their workers moving over here learn English, but not all companies do, and their families don't always learn.

American and British tourists in Europe can always find English speakers close by, but the German, Frenchman, Italian or Dutchman coming here won't be so lucky.

I remember when AT&T was competing for a contract in Argentina and they sent some hotshot executive down there. Problem was that he didn't know a word of Spanish and his secretary acted as interpreter. Most of the Argentinians spoke English, but were either insulted or bemused by having to speak English to a salesman in their own country. Figured that if AT&T was that atupid in the negotiations, how good could they be running a phone company... Needless to saay, somone else got the contract.

It goes on... Bilingualism isn't about immigration, it's about life in the 21st century.

[GirlAlex]

22. Same thing

Most of the Argentinians spoke English, but were either insulted or bemused by having to speak English to a salesman in their own country. Figured that if AT&T was that stupid in the negotiations, how good could they be running a phone company... Needless to Say, someone else got the contract.

That's exactly the point, only in reverse. If people choose to live and work in the United States, they have to become proficient in English for the same reason.

When in Rome, do as the Romans, not that hard. It's insulting and inconsiderate when people do not adapt the langage/customs of the host country.

[blonndee]

25. Shouldn't we be learning Cherokee and Choctaw

and all the different Native languages (those that still exist), then? It IS THEIR country, after all.

Even speaking Spanish would be more appropriate than English, since the Spanish were certainly here before the English-speaking colonialists joined them.

But so that I don't give your questionable "logic" more credence than it deserves, let me point out 1) that just because someone doesn't speak English doesn't mean they are not attempting to do so, and 2) even if they prefer to converse in their first language, why in the world would YOU consider it insulting and inconsiderate? Do you think that everyone should submit to your own preferences? Are only English-speakers "real" Americans? Do you think the country only belongs to people like you? I for one think a diversity of customs and languages is valuable and something that enriches the American culture. God forbid we become even MORE homogenized than we already are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. BINGO!!

You win. :)

[EFerrari]

77. How in the world am I going to ever learn Southern Paiute or

Ohlone? Good grief! I can't even go back to where I came from -- I'm already there!

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Well Pig Latin is fairly universal

and easy too!!

[guinivere]

144. Damn, you're good.

:applause:

[ret5hd]

26. So, what you are saying is...

That if a company perceives a monetary benefit to themselves to offer (in whatever form) bilingual services...

(for example:
Spanish speaking cashiers at a grocery store
those "Press 1 for English press 2 for Spanish" phone menus
Spanish translations on drive-thru fast-food menus
etc etc etc)

THEY SHOULD JUST STOP IT!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
What are you, some kind of goddamned COMMIE TRAITOR? A business can't do what it wants to make money?
I bet people like yopu would bulldoze San Francisco's China Town too, wouldn't you?

[EFerrari]

28. I'd start with Mission Dolores. It has a Spanish NAME.

Wow. We stand to lose a LOT of places. Like, Nevada and Colorado!

Better get that bulldozer warmed up! This could take WEEKS!

[blonndee]

31. My gosh, how are we New Mexicans going to handle this endeavor?

Now we'll have to rename...oh, about 85% of the towns and at least an equal number of rivers, mountains, and other such sites.

And how am I going to order my favorite foods? When I want my red chili cheese enchiladas, will I have to ask for the "wrapped flat corn product stuffed with cheese?" Will my chile rellenos become "breaded and fried cheese-filled long green peppers"? What about chips and...oops. Salsa?

Fuck it, let's just bulldoze all the adobes and the Mexican restaurants, and replace them with rows of identical suburban vanilla houses and McDonald's. Who needs diversity?!? We gotta make everyone the SAME! REAL Americans are white, English-speaking, bougie, SUV-driving, church-attending, painfully straight, property-accumulating, ahistorical consumers. So all those "others" can just love it or leave it! :eyes:

[EFerrari]

40. New Mexico has MEXICO in its name! OMFG!

:rofl:

[AspenRose]

96. Spanish is one of the official languages in New Mexico as well

So much for state's rights :eyes:

[EFerrari]

99. Well, we have to throw out Guadalupe-Hidalgo.

It has two Spanish names! lol

[mitchtv]

231. you mean it hasn't been already thrown in the Rio Grande (Oops)?

along with a few Latinos who objected?

[Telly Savalas]

29. If Chinese restaurants won't serve things like chicken fried steak

and mashed potatoes then they should MOVE BACK TO CHINA!!!!111

[TreasonousBastard]

30. Not entirely the same thing...

A Siemens executive coming here to close a deal would naturally speak English, but some on his staff might not.

The history of immigration here has been one of people moving into neighborhoods of their own people, with full immersion taking several generations. My stepfather's father moved here from Italy and never learned more than a few words of English, but worked hard all his life and raised five kids who are as American as it gets.

Yes, there are some idiots coming in who insist we should cater to their every whim, but that's not the bulk of them. I lived in a very heavily Hispanic city for 10 years, and while many of the older ones were incapable of learning a new language, just about everyone I met had learned, or was learning, English. They were jealous of their Brazilian, Cuban, Argentinian, Columbian, Venezuelan... cultures, but the lines for the ESL courses were enormous. It takes time for them to integrate into the culture here. BTW, the food there was incredibly good, and cheap. I really miss Braziliam barbecue, Cuban roast pork...

The point I'm making is that far too many people seem to think that there is some God-given right for us to isolate ourselves in our language.

[sandnsea]

35. Nonsense

Most arrogant Americans would expect the Argentinian to speak English - "if they want the almighty American dollar, they can bygawd speak American to get it". Don't even pretend that US businessmen haven't expected others to learn English for a long time now, at least until the last ten years or so.

And using your example, well how stupid do we have to be as a country to not give our kids the benefit of Spanish so they can compete in all those foreign countries anyway. Nah, better to keep them stupid and let the upperclasses keep control of all international trade because they LEARN OTHER LANGUAGES.

Fucking stupid goddamn ignorant... :grr:

[GirlAlex]

79. It' really is a global issue.

I formed my opinions about multiculturalism with looking at how multiculturalism worked in other countries as well.

Europeans do know multiple languages - they also tend to be more polite, sure they jest about their neighbors, but they do not act like really bad house guests when they travel there on holiday or migrate for work, they conform and are GRATEFUL for the opportunity.


As opposed to some muslim factions in France for example, demanding that their cultural be given equal billing to French culture. HELLO it's France, it's got a history that goes back a couple thousand years, the French government and people opened their doors to them and this is how they pay them back?????

Immigrants need to understand that the host countries are doing them a favor, their is no right to immigrate, it's a kindness.

When immigrants insist on clinging to their culture and traditions instead of adapting the traditions,customs refusing to adapt/use the language of the host nation they are spitting on that kindness - behaving like bad house guests.

It's all about respect and good manners. If people do not respect other people's kindness and hospitality, they shouldn't be surprised when they are asked to leave.

[skygazer]

82. Okay, so let's get this straight

It's okay for so-called "natives" to learn multiple languages but it's very bad form for immigrants to use their own native language in their new home because it's bad manners.

You learn foreign languages so you can visit other countries and be grateful for the opportunity but it should be against the law to use another language in this country.

I like this one - "When immigrants insist on clinging to their culture and traditions instead of adapting the traditions,customs refusing to adapt/use the language of the host nation they are spitting on that kindness - behaving like bad house guests."

So in other words, all of us who live in the US should not have brought our European cultures and traditions here - we should have adopted those of the host nation - which means we should all be living in various forms of teepees and longhouses and speaking a variety of Native American languages.

Get real - do you really think that if you moved to Morocco, you'd adopt the traditions, customs and culture of Morocco and COMPLETELY ABANDON those you were brought up with? That you'd never use English? That you'd bring your kids up to be completely Moroccan in every way? No, you'd be an American who moved to Morocco and you'd combine your cultural norms with those of Morocco - just as every immigrant who moves to the US does.

[sandnsea]

113. Gosh, I'm a Franco-American

My family was an original settler of the small town of Ste Genevieve Missouri, an historic landmark and one of the few locations in the country with colonial-era French homes and architecture. Our French heritage is celebrated every year with the King's Ball and Jour de Fete. I guess you're going to have to talk to somebody else about host countries and multiculturalism because I never related to the whole WASPy thing anyway.

[Karenina]

114. Your posts read like the musings

of someone who has never really been out of the U.S. for more than a minute... :eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. Yes, I once read an article about a company in Minnesota that

received inquiries about its products from all over the world.

They wrote back to those companies and told them to inquire in English or not at all.

I wonder how many of those clients they kept.

[charlottelouise]

71. A few points to consider

Your analogy here doesn't work.

If I'm negotiating a major contract for telephone service, it's reasonable for me to assume that if the company can't or won't send a sales rep who speaks my language, that there will be other problems down the road. I'd be thinking that AT & T made a habit of not being prepared or that they didn't know my country -- either of those would be the proverbial dealbreaker.

On the other hand, if I'm running, say, an auto parts store in a community with a large immigrant population, I'd have to be pretty dumb to not post bilingual signage or hire some bilingual employees. My business is selling auto parts, not fixing the problems of the world. If my customers want to spend their money with a business that chooses to assist them in the language they are more comfortable with, I'd better learn that language.

Incidentally, learning a new language takes some time and effort. When immigrant workers are putting in 60 hours a week cleaning your toilets or picking the tomatoes on the sandwiches you eat, they just might not have all the time in the world to go to English classes, as hard as it might be for us 'Murricans to understand that.

Finally, a bit of factual information that you might take into account. Historically -- and let's go back to the mid-nineteenth century on this -- first generation immigrants may or may not become completely fluent in English; second generation (born here) are often bilingual; the grandchildren have to learn the language in school.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. GirlAlex, it takes TIME to learn a new language

What are immigrants and visitors supposed to do, walk aroiund mute until they learn English?

And who do you know who is REFUSING to learn English as opposed to having to work 12 hours a day just to survive or being so new to this country that they haven't had time to learn it properly yet?

[elehhhhna]

36. The majority of Dutch people speak some English, as well as

German, and it's not uncommon to meet juveniles who have 4 languages.

It's embarrassing to visit family there.

[FlaGranny]

38. Un huh, maybe we

should just require every American citizen to learn to speak the language of any other person who might be a resident of the United States.

I'm FOR legal immigration. I actually enjoy living in a multicultural society, but where I live people speak French, Finnish, Italian, Tagalog, Spanish, German, Farsi, and a multitude of other languages. It is insane to think that business should be conducted in all those languages or that all those people speaking those languages should have to learn English AND Spanish.

If I should ever move to Cuba, France, or Finland, you can be absolutely certain I would not do so without being able to communicate and do business in Spanish, French, or Finnish. I'm not arrogant enough to beleive they should accommodate me.

[EFerrari]

39. You said "immigration"!

lol

[FlaGranny]

44. ??

A requirement to speak Spanish AND English would make it impossible for a Finn or a Frenchman to be employable.

[EFerrari]

47. A requirement to speak Spanish? The OP was talking about

incentives for bilingualism. Not immigration, nor about a requirement to speak the dreaded Spanish language.

[FlaGranny]

56. What other language

than Spanish would we be talking about? A bit South of where I live, jobs are impossible to find if you can't speak Spanish, and my area is the same. We have a very high population of Haitians and I don't know of any businesses requiring Creole for employment. This area is as culturally diverse as New York City.

I have 2 sons, both professionals, and both of whom learned another language, one German and the other French. Both REFUSED to learn Spanish even though I tried to talk them into it - I guess it was backlash.

Edit: Tower of Babble?

[EFerrari]

58. Down thread, I mentioned that in our area, the biggest demand

is for Spanish, Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin), Korean and Tagalog. And I expect both location and industry would determine what an employer was shopping for. It's too bad your sons refused to learn Spanish. I've made as much as $100 an hour translating and transcribing.

[Karenina]

119. BULLSHIT, Granny!!!

Unlike Americans, Europeans tend to pride themselves on language acquisition. French/Spanish is a relatively easy jump. As for the Finns, there are probably only 4 people still living on this globe today who have REALLY MASTERED that language. Everybody else just fills his/her mouth with marbles and wings it. :rofl:

[GirlAlex]

46. Yeah

What makes it a Democratic issue is that those who advocate for bilingualism here at home forfeit their right to criticize American hegemony overseas.

The average american may not be a rocket scientist but they can pick up on hypocrisy really quick.

[mcscajun]

48. If I like oranges for breakfast I can't criticize prunes in the spaghetti

sauce?

that makes about as much sense as what you just said.

You're certainly making an interesting debut here at DU.

:eyes:

[GirlAlex]

57. Bad Americans

The European, and probably the rest of the world, bitch about American tourists/expats is that they are loud, obnoxious and crude,demanding that the natives bend over back wards to accommodate them.

we have people from other countries coming over here and acting the exact same way.

If it's wrong for Americans to do it overseas, why is it ok for people of different cultures to do the same thing here?

You have no argument.

[mcscajun]

60. Oh, I certainly do. You are conflating tourism with immigration

and American hegemony with linguistic hegemony; they are entirely different animals.

Certainly, any country that has American expats has the same argument as this country against permanent residents who never learn the language and expect Everyone to learn theirs. American hegemony has nothing to do with either tourism or immigration. This has nothing to do with American hegemony, which is the projection of US power abroad, not the actions of individual travelers. It's not even linguistic hegemony, which is what your specious arguments are implying, as the native speakers themselves aren't "forcing" anyone to learn their language from a position of power, your perception of victimhood notwithstanding. If the marketplace puts a value on bilingualism, as it always has, that's not any kind of hegemony either, that's simply market forces.

Most tourists to this country DO speak some English; many speak it better than our own native speakers. :) Most American tourists worldwide speak little or none of the languages of the countries they visit. In whichever direction, those who speak more than just their own language are going to have an easier time, more opportunities, greater advantages, and will be perceived in more open and friendly fashion by those in the host/new country. Nothing new about that, either.

Multilingualism is nothing new in the business world, here or abroad. I'm probably quite a bit older than you, and can recall Employment advertisements in NYC in the 60s and 70s that already paid a premium for bilingualism, and in many positions, it was a requirement. Bilingualism isn't a fad, a passing effect of globalism, or a side-effect of immigration.

Your argument is isolationist, bordering on racist, plain and simple.

(Edited to fix typos.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. Right, when I was thinking about what to do after grad school, I saw

ads in the New York Times for bilingual personnel in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, French, and Portuguese, as well as Spanish. This was in the early 1980s.

If the job requires heavy contact with Latino immigrants, then Spanish language ability is a reasonable requirement, just as knowledge of music is a reasonable requirement for a record store employee or knowledge of power tools is a reasonable requirement for an employee in a hardware store.

[Richard Steele]

62. So them ferriners is FORCIN Merkin folks to talk that funny furrin talk?

Is that what you're saying?

It seems that's what you're saying.

QUOTE:
"...demanding that the natives bend over
backwards to accommodate them.

We have people from other countries coming
over here and acting the exact same way."

Yup, that's what you're saying.

[EFerrari]

63. The phrase is "Ugly American". n/t

[EFerrari]

49. That's right! American hegemony has to be DEMOCRATICALLY

imposed at home AND abroad!

[alarimer]

59. What??

That makes no sense.

Learning another language, whether it is used in business or for fun, simply makes a person a better person, more well-rounded, more cultured, less ignorant of other cultures. Americans are (by and large) none of those things. We are mostly ignorant hayseeds who demand other culture (when we visit them) cater to US, which is one of the reasons people hate us. The primary reason is Bush,of course.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. It is hypocritical to want to communicate with people?

Huh?

[High Plains]

92. Wrong. I can do both and not be a hypocrite.

[TheFriedPiper]

105. If they could pick up on hypocrisy, Bush wouldn't be president

And there would be no Republicans in office at all.

Don't you agree? (hehehehe)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. In practice, smart businesses DO have staff speaking multiple languages

as do non-profits.

When I worked on Dennis Kucininch's campaign in the Twin Cities, I was pleased to see that they had campaign literature in Vietnamese and Somali, not because the voters couldn't speak English (you can't become a U.S. citizen without learning basic English) but because information penetrates one's brain more easily in one's native language.

My local YWCA recently changed its policy on guests, and in deference to the ethnic make-up of its patrons, issued the notices in Spanish, Hmong, and Somali.

[Karenina]

120. Errraaa... Granny...

As a granny, (over 50?) I can assure you that you would have NO CHANCE of really mastering Finnish, even if you are well-grounded in related languages and made it a 24/7 pursuit. I can also assure you that if you lived in their midst, made an effort, however small, YOU would surely be accommodated. The Finns DO speak English. Have you ever lived anywhere outside the U.S.??? WHAT is the likelihood of you EVER living ANYWHERE that your mother-tongue is not dominant? NIL??? Just wondering. :shrug:

[mainer]

201. What about for TOURISM? Nothing to do with immigration.

It's definitely a help in the tourist industry to speak any number of foreign languages. Here in Maine, we often encounter tourists who only speak French. And considering how many Japanese show up in NYC, don't you think it'd help to have Japanese-speaking wait staff at a sushi bar? How can you automatically jump to the conclusion that this is all about catering to immigrants?

In Europe, bilingualism is very much a part of meeting the tourist's needs.

My flight attendant sister-in-law is required to speak four languages -- because she has to be able to communicate in an emergency.

[Karenina]

42. There is NO DOWN SIDE

to learning other languages, just as there is NO DOWN SIDE to learning computer languages, music, sign language, horse-whispering. THERE IS NO DOWN SIDE TO LEARNING TO COMMUNICATE.

[mcscajun]

51. Damn straight! A few years ago, I learned American Sign Language

Communication is the most important skill -- without that, you can learn no others.

[AZBlue]

190. Exactly!

I think fluency in a second language should be required for HS or college graduation.

[WinkyDink]

45. Not in the least. Computer literacy is pretty much a mainstay of American

education; the teaching of Spanish is not (and please; "bilingual" most certainly does not include French or German).

When Spanish becomes a mandatory subject, I'll agree with the OP.

And I happen to love Spanish! Took a couple years in h.s.; managed to get through Spain a decade later on them.

NOT THE POINT!!

[EFerrari]

54. "Bilingual" where we live means Spanish, Chinese or Korean.

Tagalog as well. Those are the language that are most in demand and it's probable that this will vary depending on location. So, I do agree with the OP insofar as a language is a skill and a very specialized one that takes years to develop.

[WinkyDink]

101. And where, pray, ought someone to study Korean or Tagalog?

[EFerrari]

104. Where we learn all our languages, at home and/ or at school.

:shrug:

[niyad]

138. hate to tell you this, but "bilingual" simply means fluent in TWO language

it says NOTHING about WHICH two languages.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

139. But it's usually referring to English and Spanish.

How many job postings do you see with "Bilingual -- English and French" or "English and German"? Spanish is the second-most common spoken language in this country, far more than German or French.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

180. I've seen ads for "Bilingual, English and Russian" in Portland and

"Bilingual, English and Hmong" or "English and Somali" in the Twin Cities.

[EFerrari]

185. Most of the demand in San Francisco right now is for English/

Mandarin.

But, the dreaded Spanish speaker can find work, too. :scared:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

197. And how often do you see those nationwide?

Is there a substantial Hmong population in Florida? California? New York? Spanish is the scond most common language here, so "bilingual" usually refers to Spanish and English.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

199. There is a substantial Hmong population in parts of California,

because they cluster in the areas where their clan chiefs settle, and in Portland, there are lots of Koreans, Russians, and Romanians. You can see programs in all three languages on Portland public access cable.

Spanish is the most widespread foreign language, but others are common in different parts of the country.

[LeftyMom]

221. There are a lot of Hmong people here

The local governments, law enforcement agencies and non-profits have made a real effort to hire Hmong and English bilingual people with understanding of Hmong culture, because they were really not having thier needs met and the younger generation was becoming a real problem for the cops and schools with no way to communicate to the older generation what they were up to. Doing so has helped both by giving a path into professional careers for the second generation kids and by creating understanding and communication between the cultural leadership and the leadership of the larger community.

[mcscajun]

50. The marketplace is about skills, plain and simple. Always has been

always will be.

The nature of the required skillset for any job is always changing due to technology and marketplace conditions. Like it or not, computer literacy and biligualism are the highest skill set of the 21st Century.

This isn't about immigration, it's about the marketplace. If you want to stay monolingual, no one's going to force you to become bilingual, trilingual, or otherwise. If you don't want to learn Microsoft Office, become a Powerpoint wizard, learn webmaster skills, database programming, or Java, no one's going to force you to do those things, either. Your opportunities, and your salary, will be measured accordingly. Your choice.

[im10ashus]

52. Yes.

If being bilingual and computer literate are a part of the job.

[Hav]

67. .

I don't understand why this resulted into a long discussion about immigration, foreigners or other cultures. Everyone knows that speaking more than one language is a plus. That's the case for most jobs.
I am not only thinking about Americans approaching you who might not speak English very well but also having business relations with companies in other countries. In that case, if speaking their language is not a plus, then I don't know what is.

[mcscajun]

73. Fear. Confusion. Hidden Agendas.

Some just equate bilingualism with a threat to their supposed sacred way of life.

Some didn't quite get the point of the OP.

Some have axes to grind or missions to accomplish.

[Nikia]

75. If being bilingual is a useful part of the job

For example, I have worked in the food manufacturing industry. There are a higher percentage of workers who speak primarily than in many other industries, especially here in Wisconsin. In a plant where over 20% of the workers speak Spanish are not fluent in English, it would make sense to prefer bilingual supervisers over those who are not.
Speaking multiple languages is a skill for some jobs. In some jobs, it is not. Even if someone would be hired favoably for bilingualsim when it isn't an important skill for theat job, it wouldn't be the first time that someone was preferably hired for having certain skills that didn't necessarily pertain to the job.

[1932]

81. The more you know, the more valuable your labor.

[mcscajun]

83. Aren't you happy some actually get the Point of your OP?

Seriously.

[EFerrari]

84. I was just thinking that we normally call the practice and transmission

of language and culture ---- civilization!

And that's one reason why Republicans are ruining this country. They're not only authoritarian and anti-democratic, they can't recognize a civilizing gesture to save their lives.

[Karenina]

91. Learning another language

is FUN!!! It can also be grueling, as has been my experience with Deutsch, BUT IT'S ALWAYS JUST. SUCH. FUN. I mangle Deutsch REGULARLY. However MOST long-standing ex-pats here are strictly passive and my efforts are appreciated as we Amis DO have a "ruf"(rep). Language learning opens up whole new vistas of understanding! When one understands how a language is structured, it gives incredible insight into the mentality of those with whom one wishes to communicate. A BOND is established. I remember the day I realized my "mute button" no longer functioned as well, I was suddenly a party to all the ambient conversation on the Tram. It was like the gate to the castle was lowered across the moat. Visiting the U.S. a decade ago I was EXHAUSTED not being able to tune out the chatter as I'd been able to in my Heimat...

[EFerrari]

93. It's so much fun! I noticed in college that those semesters when

I was taking a language and a hard science that my writing got much better. Grammars and metaphors. :)

[Cleita]

89. I would say it is unless neither the language nor the computer

skills are necessary for the job. For instance, if you lost a job digging trenches to someone who was bi-lingual or has computer skills, then I would complain, unless it was necessary to communicate in the other language or maybe the equipment used to dig was computerized.

[johnaries]

94. "I can't believe it! They hired someone more qualified than me!"

"How DARE they?"
And aren't these usually the same people who are against "entitlements"?
A meritocracy! What a novel concept!

[EFerrari]

97. Apparently, authoritarians are afraid of being bossed around.

:)

[FILAM23]

107. Bilingual is great

I wish I was better at foreign languages then I am
My wife speaks Bicol (One of the Philippine dialects), Tagalog (Filipino), and English.
She also reads and writes all 3 (however her English spelling leaves something
to be desired) So if you lose yourjob to someone who is bilingual then I guess
they were better qualified.
On a related topic I beleve all forms related to govt services should be in English only

[EFerrari]

109. That is discriminatory against citizens whose English is limited.

When was the last time *you* were forced to learn a new language?

[FILAM23]

111. Considering

being able to read, write and understand English
is a requirement to getting citizenship I find your
argument void. And the last time I was forced to
learn another language was when I lived in Japan,
either that or I had an interpertor

[EFerrari]

117. Being proficient and being fluent are not the same thing

so no, my argument is not "void". It's lovely to see how easily the rights of others are disposed of.

[blonndee]

121. Besides, most gov't forms are difficult even if you ARE fluent and

a native speaker!

I swear, I think sometimes people don't even TRY to put themselves in another's shoes.

[FILAM23]

233. Bullshit

Every govt form I've ever filled out (and there have been many)
are very straight forward and easy to understand with anything
above a 6th grade reading level.

[blonndee]

235. Well, aren't you quite the know it all.

Charming, charming.

I guess you've never had to look up tax codes and complex instructions when you've filed your income tax forms each year. I guess you probably can afford to pay someone to do that.

[Karenina]

124. "Forced?"

What I DON'T GET is that you did not embrace the opportunity with GLEE!!! WHAT IS THAT??? (BTW, it's "interpreter" :evilgrin: )

My kids grew up in the "Anime Age" and both decided they DIDN'T NEED someone standing between them and the info they wanted. I felt so proud (and at the same time stupid) when we met a colleague of mine and the 3 of them jabbered on incessently in Japanese and I sat there clueless. I've been to Japan and learned enough to be entertaining, but was totally left behind in the dust in that moment. What I did notice was my oldest had the body language DOWN! (My colleauge asked me later, "WHERE THE HELL DID HE GET THAT???") My youngest NOT AT ALL, but he has made great strides since studying advanced math and computer science IN JAPAN.

Please explain to dumb me why developing the skills to engage is SUCH a burden. :shrug:

[pitohui]

182. "please explain to dumb me," do you know what it is to be literally dumb?

the reverse snobbism of the "please explain to dumb (i think you meant stupid, not dumb, since presumably you are able to speak in SOME language) me" disturbs me

if you are, in fact, literally dumb, then it seems to me that your own experiences would answer your question, i was mute for many years and let's just say that it wasn't because i could have just changed my mind and started chatting away

but in case you truly do want an answer to your question -- yes it is almost impossible for many people to learn a new language after a certain age, brain development favors the learning of language in the young -- once everyone knew this and made allowances

but by all means let's throw away all the good and talented people who number in the millions who can't learn a language well as an adult, why should anybody have a job who isn't exposed to an elite education and all kinds of special experiences when young? :sarcasm:

[PresidentWar]

108. God forbid we hold bilingualism as a virtue....

What's next? Multilevel thought? Then the terrorists will surely win.

[Karenina]

112. Multilingualism IS a virtue!!!

Let me be the first to say it!!! :evilgrin:

[PresidentWar]

122. Bingo. So why is it frowned on in the USA?

By the time I was in my late 20's I spoke five languages fluently. When I graduated high school, all that was required was so many credits of one foreign language. Pathetic.

Since cultural supremacy and xenophobia are at the root of the problems we are having with the rest of the planet right now, we need to make it a requirement of graduation that a student has FLUENCY in at least one language besides their native one. Not 3 credits of basic French. FLUENCY.

[Karenina]

132. I so TOTALLY agree!!!

Would that FLUENCY in Spanish were required in Florida, Texas, California u.s.w. The kiddies, in their interaction, would be letting everyone know where the fuck-ups are. As things stand Amurikkkans see "Spanish" (Puerto Rican, Cuban, Mexican) as an INFERIOR form of communication.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

123. No.

It's much easier to learn the basics of computer operation than it is to learn an entirely new language.

Besides, a majority of jobs entail at least some computer experience, while far less require proficiency in a second language.

[Karenina]

126. HALLO!!!

Internet LINGUA FRANCA ist ENGLISCH!!!

"while far fewer require..."

[Starbucks Anarchist]

127. Well, pardon the fuck out of me for making a minor mistake.

:eyes:

[Karenina]

130. Oh c'mon, SA!!!

I'm just being a grammar-nazi wench! :hug: But PLEASE do, if you would be so kind, address my other point as it is more important. HOW did it make YOU FEEL being suddenly in a monolinguist minority? Did you feel overwhelmed? Frightened? Out to sea? How did you FEEL about acquiring the skills that gain you more access?

Language acquisition for adults is a VERY SPECIAL thing. Children assign no values as their identification is more fluid. For us "older folks" it's so much more than just learning words...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

131. I've never been in a monolinguist minority for an extended period of time.

But the OP mentioned bilingualism -- specifically, the need for Americans to be bilingual rather than non-English-speaking newcomers to be bilingual. As far as that situation is concerned, how do you reconcile wanting the growing non-English-speaking population to not speak English while also chiding American citizens to become proficient in the newcomers' language? Why is it a one-way street when determining who should be bilingual?

Just as it is difficult for non-English speakers to learn English, it must be at least equally difficult for Americans to learn the non-English speakers' native language, correct?

[Karenina]

136. I really want to engage you, SA

and just want to know if you've ever had the opportunity to learn and USE a language other than English. It has EVERYTHING to do with attitudes about multilingualism. Can you read music? Can you sign using just letters?

It's not about ME wanting newcomers in the U.S. to get a free pass, they DON'T really get one anyway, nor do they expect one for the most part. I don't live in the U.S. anymore, speak another language or two and most EVERYONE I know is at the VERY LEAST bi-lingual. What I notice on these language threads is Americans being OUTRAGED, OUTRAGED I SAY, at the notion, the very suggesion that it would benefit EVERYONE if they were a bit more open, linguistically speaking. ;-)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

137. I am engaging you.

I also know a fair amount of Spanish. In addition, my parents are Indian immigrants who speak three languages, so, yes, I am surrounded by multilingualism.

I have absolutely no objection to people speaking foreign languages amongst themselves or even in private businesses if the proprietor is more at ease with that. Hell, I live in Queens, where every language on Earth is heard.

What I do have an objection to is demanding Americans become bilingual while not expecting non-English speakers to do the same. Yes, it is difficult for non-English speaking adults to learn English -- just as it is also difficult for Americans to learn the language of these newcomers. My parents were fortunate in that they were taught English at an early age, but many immigrants are not so fortunate. However, it does these new immigrants a disservice if they are catered to in their native language instead of immersing themselves in the native language of English -- a language that will expand their opportunities tenfold.

[Karenina]

140. English language skills

are a feather in anyone's cap GLOBALLY. The school systems here realize that and children begin instruction at an early age. The younger they are, the easier it is. Many businesses offer their employees the perk of language instruction as multilingualism is seen as an ADVANTAGE.

What confuses me is the hostility and anger expressed by Americans whenever these language threads pop up, as they do with regularity. No one "wants" non-English speakers to NOT speak English. Even the terms are somewhat prejudicial:

need for Americans rather than newcomers
chiding Americans / one-way street, catering to newcomers
demanding (that) Americans / not expecting newcomers

The OP, as I understand it, suggested that bilingualism is a skill, a qualification and an advantage for AMERICANS. That concept has yet to be embraced and gets all mushed up in heated discussions about "THEM". :shrug:

[EFerrari]

141. Not to mention the fact that English is not any more "native" to

this continent than Spanish is, and hasn't been around as long.

Americans have this fantasy that theirs is the only "real" culture.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

149. You missed my point.

The OP put bilingualism on par with computer literacy in terms of necessary job skills. My point was that non-English speaking newcomers (I don't know what's prejudicial about that) are not asked to become proficient in English when these requirements of bilingualism appear -- they are being catered to, and at the same time, are also becoming trapped in their own linguistic prison.

As I said before, people are free to speak whatever languages they wish, but they should not be shocked when everyone doesn't want to (or can't) address them in their native tongue. And as far as being advantageous to Americans, of course bilingualism is an advantage, but it is not a realistically achievable goal for many adults -- you can't claim Americans should broaden their horizons and learn a new language without also requiring the same of those not yet proficient in English.

When an employer requests a bilingual applicant, he's generally doing so because he's serving a community that doesn't know English, this despite the fact that they live in America. Note that I am not referring to large corporations that do business around the world -- I am strictly limiting it to within this country.

And again, bilingualism and computer literacy are not even remotely comparable, particularly considering that many jobs in today's marketplace require at least basic computer skills and the fact that such skills are easier to learn than an entirely new language.

[EFerrari]

151. You are out of touch.

1. Spanish speaking immigrants are not in the least "catered to". That's a laughable misconception. The Hispanic market, on the other hand, is -- as it should be.

2. There is no "requirement" for bilingualism for "Americans". Please, at least be accurate.

3. Bilingualism by your own reasoning is a much harder skill to acquire than computer literacy and therefore should be even more rewarded by employers who serve a multililngual market.

Jeesus.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

153. Oh, really?

1. Spanish speaking immigrants are not in the least "catered to". That's a laughable misconception. The Hispanic market, on the other hand, is -- as it should be.

When bilingualism (usually meaning English and Spanish) is present or required, I would say Spanish-speaking immigrants are one of the groups catered to.

2. There is no "requirement" for bilingualism for "Americans". Please, at least be accurate.

I was referring to certain job requirements, just like the one the OP posted.

3. Bilingualism by your own reasoning is a much harder skill to acquire than computer literacy and therefore should be even more rewarded by employers who serve a multililngual market.

Yes, it is a harder skill, but if everyone who lived in this country spoke English, then there would be far less of a need for bilingualism.

[EFerrari]

155. You are conflating a number of issues.

1. Immigrants are not catered to. On the contrary, they are exploited en mass. The Hispanic market, on the other hand, is marketed to. There is a difference while it may not be plain to *you*.

2. The OP listed no job "requirement"; it considered incentives for bilingualism.

3. Everyone who has lived in this country has NEVER all spoken English. And it looks like provincialism in this regard isn't the trend of the future.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

159. Clarification:

1) Spanish-speaking immigrants are exploited economically and in other ways, but when more and more companies conduct their businesses in Spanish, the immigrants are, in a de facto manner, being catered to, linguistically speaking.

2) The OP listed a hypothetical situation wherein bilingualism, as a skill, was put on par with computer literacy in terms of difficulty. He/she was referring to jobs that require bilingualism, and the OP chose to equate bilingualism and computer skills. I was addressing the hypothetical situation.

3) Like I said in a previous post, my parents are immigrants who speak several languages, including English. I never advocated speaking only English in private situations, only that English is the de facto American language and is the easiest way to communicate in this country.

[EFerrari]

163. Immigrants are not catered to. The Hispanic market is catered to

just as one would try to sell to any market.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

166. Linguistically speaking, they are catered to.

[EFerrari]

173. Who are "they"? "Those people"?

:eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

196. No, Spanish-speaking immigrants.

Don't even try to play the race card on me.

[EFerrari]

200. I don't have to. Your position is those "Spanish speaking" people

are too damn lazy to learn English. That they are "catered to".

Well, that "catering" is THE LAW in all the tracts we got from Mexico.

[Karenina]

204. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

206. See post #195.

[PresidentWar]

176. OK, now I can't let this pass...

Catered to? Do you mean like what, having certain social services translated into multiple languages? Explain.

I have been an ESL teacher for over ten years now, and I can hardly find an instance even here in conservative Utah where a lingual minority is "being catered to".

[EFerrari]

178. The poster apparently has a problem with protecting the civil rights

of all Americans.

[PresidentWar]

179. Be careful of some so called "liberals"

...for they can harbor some very deeply embedded prejudices. I was shocked recently, with the immigration hoo-haw, over how many of my local comrades had a nasty deep seated distrust and dislike of "them li'l brown people".

[EFerrari]

184. The Thuggery has been drumming up hatred across the board.

It's contagious. We're going to be infected unless we look out for each other. That simple, imho.

[Karenina]

198. And identifies deeply

with the dominant culture. Wonder if he "passes?" :evilgrin:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

205. I don't need a lecture on race from you.

And, no, I don't "pass."

[Karenina]

213. No one is "lecturing" you, dear

At least not at the moment. WHY so defensive??? :shrug: It's quite obvious you have no problem in labeling "them" and assigning your own values to what you perceive as "THEIR" manifestations. Perhaps you "pass" on other levels than physical. Oh, you Amis are JUST. SO. COMPLICATED. :evilgrin:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

215. When you imply I identify with the "dominant" culture.

Then you wonder aloud whether I "pass" or not. Then you imply I'm racist against Spanish-speaking people, this despite the fact that I speak some Spanish and live around many Spanish-speaking people. Seems like you're basically calling me a racist, so pardon me for being defensive.

And like I said before, learning English will only help people in this country, and there are many new immigrants who do make a sincere effort, for which I salute them. But being stuck in a linguistic prison when the majority of the country's inhabitants speak another language does nobody any good.

[PresidentWar]

217. Multilingualism helps EVERYONE involved.

You're not getting that part yet. It's been proven that people who learn one or more languages even into adulthood, are more educated, aware, culturally sensitive and physically able to learn and retain more knowledge than those who do not.

I'd love for you to explain how that is a bad thing.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

234. I never said it was.

Perhaps you read my earlier posts about how I speak some Spanish and come from a multilingual family. It seems like you're the one not getting it. What I had a problem with was the OP comparing knowing a foreign language with basic computer skills, a poor analogy at best given the entirely different learning curves of both skills.

I also complained about certain things made available in a foreign language but in a non-educational setting -- so your ESL duties are not what I was referring to. If I didn't explicitly mention that caveat, then I will apologize for that only. The problem I have is that in certain situations, bilingualism -- when necessitated by some people not proficient in English -- creeps into the job market into jobs that previously didn't require such skills. Since illegal immigration is a part of this, given the fact that many illegal immigrants don't speak English, it will only create new communication problems for everyone involved. It is incumbent upon anyone arriving in this country (legally and illegally) to learn the language, or at the very least, make a sincere effort.

Of course, I know some posters will now paint me (again) as a racist and ignorant person, despite all evidence to the contrary and despite the fact that everyone's lives will be enriched by speaking English in this country. If people wish to learn other languages, fantastic. Just make sure English is one of them, or else you won't get very far.

[Karenina]

240. You cling to the assumption

that native Spanish-speakers "refuse" or don't "make a sincere effort" to learn English. That repeated false claim and other verbal cues do tend to raise red flags and the question, "Dude, WHAT are you ON about? Computer skills and language skills are BOTH SKILLS. BOTH are MARKETABLE!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

241. No, I was referring to some that don't.

And it can include speakers of any foreign language -- it just so happens that the largest number comes from Spanish-speaking immigrants because it's the second-most common language spoken here.

Computer skills and language skills are BOTH SKILLS. BOTH are MARKETABLE!

For the love of Christ, I've said I agree that language proficiency is a skill -- I DON'T agree that it is comparable to computer literacy because they have entirely different learning curves. That was my entire problem with the OP's assumption and the first thing I posted in response to him.

:eyes:

[Karenina]

242. I MUST be missing something...

Now it's "some" (most of whom are Spanish speakers) who "don't learn" English. How large is this group of "some"? WHY is it so problematic to accommodate those working to acquire language proficiency? You seem to believe (correct me if I'm mistaken) that if "they" are "catered to" they'll never learn. I'm insisting THAT is a false assumption.

The learning curve for language proficiency IS much steeper and anyone who possesses BOTH skills has increased his/her value in the marketplace.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

243. Okay.

I am referring to non-educational settings with large immigrant populations who don't speak English, these populations being predominately Spanish-speaking, and in particular, the encroachment of said languages in areas where there were not any previously -- i.e., certain JOBS, which is what the OP was referring to.

The jobs with these new language requirements serve customers/communities that lack English proficiency, and therefore, communicating in their language only serves to hold them back instead of pulling them up.

Yes, I am all for ESL-type situations, and anyone who makes a sincere effort to learn English is just fine by me. But in terms of business situations, communicating with them only in their native language -- which is what these bilingual jobs entail since it's asking for English speaking job applicants to be bilingual and not those who don't speak English -- is doing everybody a disservice. Non-English speakers won't learn English this way, and English speakers will be at a disadvantage if foreign language speakers insist on communicating only in their native tongue.

Certainly, some people will need all necessary information in their native tongue at least temporarily -- where I am concerned is how much of a crutch such a situation will be. If everything is available in their native tongue, how many will make an effort to learn English? I'm slightly optimistic that many will at least make an effort -- all I'm asking for, BTW, because languages are difficult -- but I don't know about the rest.

I am not calling for any "English only" legislation, but rather insisting that everybody be at least fairly proficient in English, which will make everything easier, and most certainly for them.

Hope that clears it up. I've been responding to multiple posters in several different sub-threads, so sorry if I got a few wires crossed. :D

[Bridget Burke]

244. I agree that learning a language as an adult has a different....

"Learning Curve" than picking up computer skills.

Therefore, learning a new language is a more valuable skill.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

246. Yes, it is a more valuable skill.

But comparing foreign-language fluency as a necessary job skill, which many Americans DON'T have, with basic computer literacy, which many Americans DO have, is silly at best. The OP was making a comparison between the two when no real comparison exists by saying complaining about losing your job to a bilingual person is the same as losing your job to someone who is computer literate.

[Bridget Burke]

247. The OP discussed losing a "promotion"---not a "job"

Reading Comprehension can also be useful.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

248. My mistake, but the general principle is still there.

And lay off the attitude, please. :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

249. Losing a promotion is significantly different from losing a job.

And I prefer my attitude to yours.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

Excuse me?

Where did I advocate legally enshrining discrimination? I simply stated that English is the de facto language in this country and that it would make everyone's lives easier if we all spoke English -- in addition to whatever other languages people choose to speak.

Don't try to make this an "anti-brown people" thread. It's insulting to everyone.

[EFerrari]

224. You're right. I feel pretty insulted. Let's withdraw Spanish language

support on ------- let's see ------ BALLOTS! So all those new Hispanic voters that vote with US can have just a little more trouble voting.

Sounds like a plan to me.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

208. Excuse me?

Where did I advocate legally enshrining discrimination? I simply stated that English is the de facto language in this country and that it would make everyone's lives easier if we all spoke English -- in addition to whatever other languages people choose to speak.

Don't try to make this an "anti-brown people" thread. It's insulting to everyone.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

195. I'll put it this way.

If I go to a foreign non-English speaking country and have concepts and ideas explained to me in English, then I would be "catered to" in that respect. See what I mean?

[Karenina]

207. When I renewed my "Erlaubnis" (permission)

I was asked if I could read the form in Deutsch, (X) YES, as I gazed upon EVERY QUESTION translated into (sometimes leaving much to be desired) Englisch.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

209. How long have you been living there?

If you have been there for a very substantial amount of time, you shouldn't have to use the English translation, correct?

[Karenina]

211. No, I didn't need it.

It was just a fascinating experience to see the bureaucratic attempts at translation. What warmed my heart was the "INCLUSION." I NEVER speak Englisch to Federal Employees. I have been known to make snarky replies in D'Englisch on forms much to their amusement.

[PresidentWar]

218. Unless you are prepared for language immersion

Which most are not, you're in for a hell of a bad time. Instead, I propose a multilinguistic paradigm in all situations. You learn theirs, they learn yours. It benefits everyone.

[Karenina]

212. DUDE!

You are really confused!!!

You equate "bilingualism" ONLY with Spanish/English and assign the value of "NOT WILLING" to THOSE others while defending the resistance of the world's "superpower" to INCLUDE "those" whose lives have been disupted by the dominant culture with whom you are so eager to identify...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

214. God forbid I consider myself an American.

And bilingualism -- for the most part -- refers to Spanish and English. Since Spanish is the second most common language in the U.S., the numbers would tend to lead to bilingualism generally meaning English and Spanish.

I have great respect for anyone who wants to improve their lives by learning English. If they require assistance, I would be more than happy to help them in any manner I could.

[PresidentWar]

219. Oh, nice rhetorical cop out.

But it misses the mark. I prefer to think of an America in which the people speak more than one language. As I've stated before, that people will be more educated, aware, culturally sensitive and able to learn and retain more knowledge than otherwise.

Its what they call a win win.

[Karenina]

238. Bingo!!!

:toast:

[PresidentWar]

143. You're cleeeeear off in left field

I don't think she was advocating that non English speakers never learn the English, at all. She is noting, and well so, that American society does not push the virtues of multilinguism and I agree with her. Americans in general are the most language challenged people on the planet. And this doesnt need to be so. Learning a foreign language is not only good for our general international relations and cultural sensitivity to the rest of the planet, but its been proven that learning a second language has all sorts of benefits to the individual, from enhanced education to a strengthening of brain functions such as memory and capacity to learn.

It's a good thing all the way around.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

150. Actually, I'm not.

I just don't see the point in Americans learning a new language when the people we are trying to accommodate are not learning (for whatever reason) English. The only reason bilingualism/multilingualism is becoming a requirement for some jobs is because of new immigrants who are non-proficient in English.

If you were referring to a global economy, many foreign companies will conduct their business in English because it's the universal language, so that is clearly not the reason for bilingual requirements in the job market.

I actually believe Americans should be taught a second language in school, but that is not what the OP was referring to. He/she was referring to bilingualism as a professional advantage -- an advantage lost to many Americans and one that is pushed only because of newcomers who are not English-proficient.

[PresidentWar]

154. Yeah, you are

You are adbvocating the continued lingual dumbing down of our populace, based on some weird notion that the rest of the world has to learn the language of the Empire. I think that is one of the most damaging and outrageous postulations I've seen anywhere.

Multilingualism, or at least bilingualism, should be a job requirement as often as possible in this country. It benefits the person, it uplifts and enlightens society, it creates an awareness and sensitivity to world issues, and it shows the world that we want to be partners instead of xenophobic militarists telling them how to run their affairs. It's a winner all the way around.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

157. Did you even read my post?

I actually believe Americans should be taught a second language in school, but that is not what the OP was referring to. He/she was referring to bilingualism as a professional advantage -- an advantage lost to many Americans and one that is pushed only because of newcomers who are not English-proficient.

How can I be advocating the lingual dumbing down of our populace while also advocating learning a second language? I object to us having to learn a second language simply because some people refuse to (or can't) learn to speak English. I do advocate learning a second language as a matter of general knowledge, but that is something that must start at an early age -- current jobs that require a bilingual requirement adversely affect adults who only speak English.

And the rest of the world doesn't have to learn the language of the "Empire." But if they are living here, then they damn well should -- if not for the rest of us, then certainly for themselves. If you had read my previous posts, you would see that I come from a multilingual family, so don't even try to paint me as xenophobic.

[PresidentWar]

165. Yes, did you?

When you snub the need for bilingualism/multilingualism in the professional quarter, you ARE advocating the dumbing down of America. It doesn't all begin and end when we leave HighSchool for chrissakes.

Try reading a little slower, and typing a little less. It may help.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

168. Again, you misunderstood.

I'm snubbing the idea that, for adults, learning a new language is not as simple as learning basic computer skills, which is what the OP hinted at.

[PresidentWar]

171. Ah, ok. Thank you for the clarification.

for some reason that didn't come through in several of your previous posts, at least to me.

[EFerrari]

175. And you would be so simply wrong. n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

194. Where am I wrong?

If non-English speakers would have difficulty learning English, wouldn't English speakers have an equally difficult time learning their language?

[PresidentWar]

216. It's about a two way street that ends up benefitting both

You see a "problem" in which newcomers to the USA cannot or will not learn English.

I see an OPPORTUNITY to get more Americans to become bilingual/multilingual while making it easier and more attractive for non-English speakers to learn.

See the wide gulf between our philosophies here?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

134. I'm not sure I get what point the multilingualism bashers on this thread

are trying to make.

As far as I can see, speaking multiple languages can only be a good thing. I think almost everyone can agree on that.

And not being able to speak the primary language of the country you live in is a bad thing. I think almost everyone can agree on THAT.

If an American business can operate/speak in a foreign language, as long as they can operate/speak in English as well, as far as I can see it can only help the business by expanding their potential market, and does not exclude anyone except xenophobes who feel "uncomfortable" or angry in a racist way when they hear a language they don't understand being spoken.

Are the multilingualist bashers suggesting that U.S. federal or state laws be changed to FORBID businesses doing business or speaking foreign languages on their premises? What would be the reason or basis for such a law?

Personally I think it's smart for businesses and their employees to speak multiple language. It fosters understanding and communication and opens up new sources of business and contacts. I was just recently in Hawaii where a huge portion of the tourism is from Japan. I honestly don't understand why ANYONE who would work in the tourism industry in Hawaii would not want to immediately learn Japanese as a second language. It's not just a question of whether you'd want to, it just seems smart from a business standpoint and would make you more competitive with other businesses. You'd be better able to communicate with your customers and give them a better experience, and they'd give good word of mouth to your business. It's just a business reality. If the same proportion of tourists as come from Japan came from China or Mexico 10 years from now then the smart move would be to learn Mandarin or Spanish, etc.

England and then the U.S. were the most influential global powers recently, hence English's place as the international language of business, science etc. But in 50 or 100 years it could be different. Power and money govern this, there's no higher principle involved, really.

[SoCalDem]

135. Blame the school system we have..

In school systems all over the world, children learn other languages besides their native language. Our school system is hopelessly rooted in the 1950's. They use the belief system that prevailed then, and think that nothing's changed except the way kids dress.

The facts are what they are.. This country has LARGE pockets of people (all over the country) who do NOT speak english. These people use services, buy stuff, and live their lives, just as we all do. It is not unreasonable for a company that wants their business, or is charged with serving that community, to expect employees on staff who can communicate with them.

If a company announced that effective (specific date here) , all employees were to start speaking a different language or be fired...well that would be different, but if a company wants to hire/promote someone who CAN speak (insert language here), I see nothing wrong with it..

If the job ad says "Chinese/arabic/spanish/japanese-speaker needed for....." then that's who they want.. If you cannot speak that language, that job is not available to you.. it's just that simple.. just as an ad for a nuclear physicist would not be available to a high school drop-out..

Not every job is available to just anyone who applies..

[EFerrari]

142. Where is the OP?

:shrug:

[guinivere]

147. Ran off to learn French and Spanish, I expect.

[EFerrari]

148. lol

:)

[RB TexLa]

167. You've done a fine job here

:toast:

I actually did have to run off when I posted this, but have watched it since.

Wouldn't begin to know where to reply to all this now.

[EFerrari]

174. Caramba.

:)

[InkAddict]

146. Who cares what language you speak it in,

Spanish or hexidecimal, as long as you spout the same BS as me - GWB*

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism - Thomas Jefferson.

Give me liberty or give me death - Patrick Henry.

At what point will it be necessary to take back that right by force????? Or do we just not want the responsibility of the consequences that that would entail and create?

When is working together co-dependency or encouraging/enabling the indivdualism necessary for creating the chaos of anarchy to clear the air of greed and corruption? What do the good and infinitely knowledgeable citizens of Iraq, Christian or Islamic, have to teach us about this?

[mainer]

152. Imagine the reaction to this question in Holland --

The land where every young person is tri-lingual or even quadri-lingual! No one in Europe doubts that being multi-lingual is a necessary job skill.

It's as if Americans are too stupid or lazy to even try to keep up with the rest of the world.

[EFerrari]

156. Nativism on steriods -- even by people who are first generation!

:wtf:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

170. My British husband had to learn three languages in school

It's not "as if" Americans were too stupid or lazy, we ARE too stupid and/or lazy.

[EFerrari]

226. I had to pass tests in three languages as well but believe me,

those tests were nothing to write home about.

It's sad that there is so much nativism in this country. We miss out on so much that is cool or amusing or interesting. Our world becomes sadly flattened. :(

[Deja Q]

158. What?

I know people who got further in their careers by NOT being computer literate... which is a pity, what with it being in IT and all, but what do I know? It's who you know, not what you know.

Please don't use apple vs orange comparisons; it makes no sense.

If the guy who speaks one language yet does the job better can't get promoted because the other guy does it so-so yet speaks more than one language, it only adds to the belief nobody should do a damn thing unless they can say it in 50 languages.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. It's exactly the same. HOWEVER...

... corporate USA hasn't been illegally importing 12 million geeks to surrepetitiously replace all the technophobes in the workforce.

Bilingualism (bilinguality? bilingualness? smartitude? I dunno, I have a hard enough time with english ;) ) like computer literacy is a virtue and should be encouraged - among our legal workforce.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

172. Nope, they just outsource all those tech jobs.

And give them to foreigners who speak English.

[PresidentWar]

169. I dont need 2 lern no other layngwij. I'm a murkan.

Excuse me while I go hurl.

[Momgonepostal]

181. Sorta...

I agree that knowledge of Spanish can be an asset in the job market.

But it's not just a matter or learning Spanish. My husband was a Spanish major, has lived in Spanish speaking countries, a summer in Spain, another in Mexico, 2 years in Argentina, and been turned down for bilingual jobs in favor for native Spanish speakers, because they speak, well, like natives. Achieving that kind of fluency takes quite a bit more than taking a class here and there. I think it's a lot easier to become computer literate than it is to become literate and fluent in another language.

[pitohui]

183. the two don't even compare in degrees of difficulty--you are right

it's a lot easier to become computer literate than it is to become literate and fluent in another language.

the reality is that most adults cannot learn another language well, if they didn't learn it as small children, the chance is forever lost

the same is not true of computer literacy, it's a different part of the brain

when we talk about making jobs only available to the bilingual, what we are really talking about is creating another excuse for age discrimination, as if they don't have enough -- it used to be don't trust anyone over 30, now it's don't employ anyone over 40, it is most disheartening

[Swamp Rat]

186. 001111 1 00001011 1111001001 0010101

mas o menos

:D

[EFerrari]

188. lol

[AZBlue]

189. It depends on what the position is and why they need to be bilingual.

If the need is there because the area is populated by immigrants who don't want to learn English, then no, we shouldn't cater to them just because they want to buy a movie ticket or a coke and won't learn enough to order them. Anyone who relocates anywhere (I don't care where they come from or where they are moving to) needs to learn the language of their new country. It's absolutely stupid not to do so.

However if the job is assisting such immigrants with their move, helping them find a program to learn English, working with overseas clients, etc. then the need for bilingual skills is as obvious as a data entry position requiring computer skills.

[EFerrari]

191. The Mexicans are coming!

:rofl:

[AZBlue]

192. I didn't mention Mexicans. You did. Shame on you.

In part I was thinking of myself - I'm planning to move to Italy in about 10 years and have just started to learn Italian. It would be stupid not to - I'm going to live there, I should learn the language.

:rofl::rofl:

[EFerrari]

193. You bet I did! No shame here at all.

[salin]

222. hehe, except the business owners probably are more concerned

about making money, than about making "a point" (aka 'learn the language if you come here!') - to the movie theater owner, the ability to sell product due to bilingualism = an additional skill of that particular employee (or prospective employee).

[EFerrari]

225. Why don't people understand that there is a huge Hispanic MARKET

in this country and one way to appeal to them is via Spanish? It doesn't seem that tough to me?

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

228. Yes, and even after they've learned basic English, they're still going to

be more comfortable in their native language, able to understand more sophisticated concepts, and more likely to understand the content on an emotional level.

By the way, a couple of years ago, I read about a new magazine directed at young adults of Latino ancestry. The magazine was in English, because there is evidently a large population of twentysomethings and thirtysomethings who still identify culturally with Mexico or Puerto Rico or Cuba or wherever, but who are more comfortable reading English than reading Spanish.

Two factors will work against a Quebec-like separatist movement of Hispanics: The strong pull of the mainstream American commercial culture, and hormones. I say hormones, because every first-generation immigrant group wants its children to marry someone of the same ethnic group. But a sizable percentage of the born-in-America generation fall in love with and marry people from outside the group, to the dismay of their parents. That is already happening with the born-in-America generation of Latinos, has been happening for generations, in fact.

The daughter of a family friend is married to a Mexican immigrant, and since she is Anglo, their children are being raised in English.

I don't worry about immigrants assimilating. They do. I predict that in two generations, you will see very few Muslim women wearing the hijab, just as today, you see very few Jewish women who cover their heads in public. I predict that in two generations, most Americans with Spanish surnames will not speak Spanish at home, just as most Americans with German surnames today (Germans being the mass immigrant wave of the nineteenth century, complete with bilingual public schools and their own neighborhoods, churches and businesses) don't speak German at all, much less at home.

[EFerrari]

230. There is no Quebec-like movement among Hispanics.

Or, at least, not yet.

Geezus. I have an advanced degree in English and when marketers deploy my first language, I pay attention. It's attractive. How is that rocket science?

And I believe you're right. Most of my first generation cousins are fluent but they are struggling to help their kids remain fluent in Spanish.

I don't even want to argue these points any more because it's just plain stupid. No one who has the resources "refuses" to learn a langueage when learning that language would make life easier.

That's just crap.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

229. Yes, and even after they've learned basic English, they're still going to

be more comfortable in their native language, able to understand more sophisticated concepts, and more likely to understand the content on an emotional level.

By the way, a couple of years ago, I read about a new magazine directed at young adults of Latino ancestry. The magazine was in English, because there is evidently a large population of twentysomethings and thirtysomethings who still identify culturally with Mexico or Puerto Rico or Cuba or wherever, but who are more comfortable reading English than reading Spanish.

Two factors will work against a Quebec-like separatist movement of Hispanics: The strong pull of the mainstream American commercial culture, and hormones. I say hormones, because every first-generation immigrant group wants its children to marry someone of the same ethnic group. But a sizable percentage of the born-in-America generation fall in love with and marry people from outside the group, to the dismay of their parents. That is already happening with the born-in-America generation of Latinos, has been happening for generations, in fact.

The daughter of a family friend is married to a Mexican immigrant, and since she is Anglo, their children are being raised in English.

I don't worry about immigrants assimilating. They do. I predict that in two generations, you will see very few Muslim women wearing the hijab, just as today, you see very few Jewish women who cover their heads in public. I predict that in two generations, most Americans with Spanish surnames will not speak Spanish at home, just as most Americans with German surnames today (Germans being the mass immigrant wave of the nineteenth century, complete with bilingual public schools and their own neighborhoods, churches and businesses) don't speak German at all, much less at home.

[EFerrari]

236. The main feature that works against a separtist movement is

that most Latino cultures are inclusive and flexible. It would simply be impolite and "una falta de respeto". Which is also why the idea that Hispanics refuse to learn English is silly on its face. If saying "no" to a stranger is considered impolite, can you imagine the magnitude of infraction saying "no" to that stranger's language or mispronouncing that language is?

lol

[Karenina]

237. Latino cultures are inclusive and flexible.

'Murika sho could use a bit mo' o dat, eh? :yourock:

[EFerrari]

239. Sometimes we don't know what's good for us, eh?

:hi:

[Bridget Burke]

245. And smart businesses "cater to" potential customers....

Someone who knows enough English to "get along" might still need help when filling out a credit application. Or shopping for appliances.