Pickles:"people act like abstinence is not a real choice because it is"

[sabra]

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1078171.php/First_Lady_speaks_of_war

<snip>

She said: 'It is very important to talk about abstinence, especially in countries where girls feel they have to comply with the wishes of men.'

'It sort of irritates me when I hear people act like abstinence is not a real choice because it is, and it is 100 per cent effective.'

Mrs Bush also discussed her attraction to her husband. She said: 'One of the first things I liked about him when I met him was his sense of humour.

'And to be married to someone who can be funny at the dinner table - we had two teenage girls at the dinner table - it was really very nice, he was always able to defuse moments of tension when 13-year-old girls are acting like 13-year-old girls - he's a really wonderful father to our girls.'

[SmokingJacket]

1. Yeah, it's easy for her! nt

[Deja Q]

20. Easy to say. Far more difficult in REAL LIFE. BTW:

Being deprived of sex is one of the three major reasons for problems in the world.

Another is being deprived of money. (the economy is proving that right enough. :( )

The third is not discerning religion from spirituality and spirituality from real life. (or cherrypicking some religious fundamentals while ignoring the rest.)

Still, nobody's perfect.

[gizmo1979]

23. I was going to say if George

is your husband it's real easy.

[genieroze]

52. I was thinking the same thing, lol

[indie_voter]

67. LOL! I was going to say, she should know!! n/t

[mom cat]

73. Looks like I was not the only one with the same idea. If I had to sleep

with George, I'd believe in abstinence too!

[cantstandbush]

107. How many of these "abstinence" fuckers have abstained from anything? n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

2. Last night on Bernie Wards program

this woman called in who said she lived in Africa for a while and it's not that simple as Pickles would like to be. According to her the men come home drunk and rape their wives and they (the women) have to have the children and get all the blame etc. It's not black and white and sex-education is a must have. Education is always the key instead of ignorance.

[Poppyseedman]

18. Being raped by a drunk and abstinence are to different things.

people act like abstinence is not a real choice because it is, and it is 100 per cent effective.'

The statement on it's face value is correct.

You are correct of course that it is far more complex than that, but having consensual sex is a choice as is also saying NO.

I find it strange that that position is so vilified around here.

What's wrong with teaching girls and boys to not have sex?

[latebloomer]

22. What's wrong with it

is that it is totally unrealistic.

Most teenagers, if given the chance, will have sex. And there is nothing wrong with that, it is perfectly natural.

Sure, they should be counseled that they don't have to have sex if they don't want to, or if they are feeling pressured. Parents can tell them that it's better to wait till you're in love, and that they need to trust the person, etc. They can also tell them that if they do choose to have sex,they need to protect themselves.

But the majority of teenagers WILL have sex, one way or the other. You can't base social policy on abstinence. Unless you have some fundamentalist society where the church is making social policy. And I certainly don't want that. Do you?

[EFerrari]

39. Even when the church "makes social policy", it still doesn't

work!

[hfojvt]

57. Are you sure?

Probably my tables will not transfer well, but here are three villages in Deutschland, before 1805 they were ruled by the Catholic church, after 1805 they became part of Protestant Wuerttemberg.

I still think the big jump in illegitimacy was due to a shortage of husbands cause by the Napoleonic wars, but I would like to see some stats for Protestant villages of the time and area.

village of Weigheim

before after

year * births * illegitimate * illegitimate * births * year

1780 22 1 *** 2 19 1820
1781 17 1 *** 3 22 1821
1782 15 2 *** 1 19 1822
1783 11 0 *** 1 14 1823
1784 21 1 *** 7 35 1824
1785 15 2 *** 2 14 1825
1786 16 0 *** 5 20 1826
1787 16 1 *** 2 15 1827
1788 14 2 *** 6 21 1828
1789 19 4 *** 3 21 1829
1790 17 1 *** 5 11 1830
1791 17 1 *** 2 24 1831
1792 16 2 *** 5 19 1832
1793 17 3


village of Durchhausen

before after

year # of births # illegitimate # illegitimate # births year

1780 21 0 *** 4 29 1820
1781 15 0 *** 5 28 1821
1782 28 0 *** 4 23 1822
1783 8 0 *** 1 20 1823
1784 21 0 *** 2 23 1824
1785 17 1 *** 1 19 1825
1786 25 0 *** 3 19 1826
1787 11 0 *** 4 28 1827
1788 21 1 *** 2 19 1828
1789 18 0 *** 5 28 1829
1790 14 2 *** 4 22 1830
1791 20 1
1792 19 1
1793 15 1


Spaichingen (und Hofen)



1787 75 0 *** 3 94 1808
1788 74 1 *** 2 83 1809
1789 76 1 *** 2 81 1810
1790 72 1 *** 2 73 1811
1791 97 1 *** 3 93 1812
1792 81 0 *** 6 88 1813
1793 91 0 *** 3 66 1814
1794 80 1 *** 7 101 1815
1795 82 2 *** 6 82 1816
1796 73 0 *** 2 70 1817

[silverweb]

59. You're kidding, right?

Do you really think some 200-year-old statistics on three little villages in Europe have any relevance whatsoever to the current day?

:crazy:

[EFerrari]

62. I can see how they would because the Church had a very

clear impact on those three villages. It would at least give us a snapshot of that moment, any way.

My own assertion was based on coming from a Central American immigrant family. At the time my family emigrated, the Church was a much more stable, more powerful influence in the daily lives of ordinary people in that country. They did set social policy.

If my family is any indication, abstinence didn't work. :evilgrin:

[silverweb]

95. Snapshots.

Okay, I'll buy the "snapshots of the moment" point of view.

However, larger sample sizes over time are far more valid to get a broader and statistically more accurate picture of the effects of social policy.

[EFerrari]

61. Could you translate that for this letters type?!

It looks really interesting but I don't understand it!

[hfojvt]

70. It is hard to follow

format reasons, the first line is from the village of Weigheim

1780 22 1 *** 2 19 1820

In 1780 there were 22 births, one of which was illegitimate. In 1820 there were 19 births, two of which were illegitimate. Not a huge difference there, but other years show larger differences, and they are consistently significantly higher.

Another observation is that women almost never married in these Catholic villages before the age of 20. In Protestant America in the same time frame most girls were marrying (and having children) before the age of 19.

[EFerrari]

72. Thank you! I'm a 16th/17th Cent. English person so

looking at the data sort of makes my day. :)

One problem I see is, the assumption that social mores would be more strict under Catholic than Protestant influence. Am I wrong that that is an assumption?

Because the early Protestant church argued that Catholics were immoral and corrupt and were even more stringent with their congregations.

[Poppyseedman]

49. You must not have teenage girls.

reality verses progressive sexual talking points never line up. I raised two of them and four boys.

Funny you never mentioned the teenagers should wait until they are prepared to be sexually responsible or maybe even married. :crazy: idea

The exploding teenage pregnancy rates over the last twenty years have nothing to do with relaxed sexual norms??? :shrug:

How many young lives have been forever ruined or substantially changed negatively because they had child{ren} at 14,15,16,17,18 years of age because of the attitude you expressed in your post???

BTW, you don't have to be a fundie to think waiting to enjoy the wonders of sex until you can understand it and handle it correctly. It just makes good policy for the culture and society in general.

Correlation? Substitute the word sex for liquor in your post. Do you think sex potentially is more dangerous than allowing teenagers to drink before they are mature enough to handle it?

[EFerrari]

64. Wow.

Can you please show how "reality verses progressive sexual talking points never line up"?

I'd be fascinated to read any data that supports that.

[Poppyseedman]

79. As a country we had a sexual revolution in the sixties

Are you so sure it was a good thing culturally and for the good of society as a whole where that sexual revolution has brought us to as a society ?

I'm not so sure.

There are many positive aspects of that culturally event as well as many negative aspects. I think as a whole we went over the line because how negatively it has impacted our children from the seventies and eighties.

- Free love isn't free
- Teen pregnancy explosion {expensive socially in terms besides dollars }
- Explosion of STD's (50 % of the population will contract one in their lifetime)
- AIDS has killed millions {Entire countries are effected}
- Abortions in the millions. (however you feel about abortions, one is too many}
- Chlamydia {three million new cases a years in adolescents and young adults}

Those are the "reality" I was talking about.

The left side of the political spectrum has let itself be in denial that many of the policies considered "progressive" have in fact been the driving force behind these trends. We vilify the right which do have some good ideas that work. They don't have the answers by far, but we as progressives need to re-evaluate our positions because the ones we are pushing sure are not working as well as intended.

IMHO

http://www.ashastd.org/index.cfm

[EFerrari]

80. I'd still like to see any hard date that supports your position.

I didn't ask for opinion on "free love". I have my own opinion which I won't inflict on you.

I asked for evidence that abstinence as a public health policy works.

You won't find any. Because it doesn't.

Between the left/right extremes, there are a bunch of kids at risk. We need to set aside our prejudices and our petty political disagreements and do what works to keep kids safe and healthy.

[Poppyseedman]

84. Sexual education was part of the sexual revolution

and we are playing the piper for it.

[EFerrari]

85. Yes! We are being asked to behave responsibly

and make sure our kids are safe instead of being unnecessarily at risk or relegated to ruined lives in shame and illness.

Piper, play louder.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. You've GOTTA be kidding.

You honestly think the 1950s were some kind of fucking halcyon days, when teenagers -properly goaded by fear, a lack of sex education, and a largle ladeling of state mandated school prayer- didn't have sex???

You've been watching a little too much 700 Club, friend.

The "sexual revolution" has been subject to the same kind of far right revisionism as the rest of the progress made as part of the progressive movements of the 1960s- progress that included civil rights for minorities, a dawning of awareness of the rights of gays and lesbians (which had been utterly nonexistent before), a dawning of environmental awareness, and equal rights for women.

What parts, precisely, of the "sexual revolution" do you have a problem with? The idea that what other people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is none of your god-damn business, whether or not they happen to be married? Every few years a bunch of folks run around like their friggin' hair is on fire because 'today's' teens are supposedly all of a sudden having sex. Bullshit. It's been going on since the beginning of time, it went on before the "sexual revolution", and it went on before sex education and contraception were made available in public schools.

How do you explain the HUGE failure rates of these asinine "abstinence only" programs? All they accomplish -along with not teaching kids about contraception- is an increase in STDs and unplanned pregnancies when the inevitable occurs.

"Paying the piper"? How? Because some teens are having sex? They've ALWAYS been having sex. What do you propose, instead? And how do you think "we" should "roll back" this sexual revolution that has your shorts in such a wad?

[Poppyseedman]

113. How do you explain the problems we are

currently having with STD's and all the associated social problems. Sexual education progressive programs simply have not worked as intended.

Interesting that you assume "sexual revolution" has been subject to the same kind of far right revisionism. Friend, the numbers don't lie. You are willing to accept all these social problems without a critical eye. A true believer.

Nowhere did I advocate throwing the baby out with the bath water concerning the other advances made in the progressive movements of the 1960s, but you assume I did.

BTW, I have never seen the 700 club. Your hatred of all things religious is clouding your perspective.

Oh' and of course kids were having sex in the 50's just not all of them with mommies approval.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. my "hatred of all things religious"

Mmmm Hmmmm. And where do you get that?

The 'problems we are currently having' with STDs - how many of those are helped by abstinence programs that -when they fail, as they are statistically likely (80%? 90%?) to do- don't give kids accurate information about contraception and condoms, which prevent STD transmission?

Giving kids HONEST information about contraception and condoms and STDs doesn't amount to 'approval' of their having sex. It's a recognition that many of them will, as they always have.

And I'm really curious as to what, exactly, you're proposing, other than endless amounts of grousing about these fornicating teens that have you so flustered.

[EFerrari]

30. Because there has yet to be an abstinence program

that has actually SUCCEEDED.

These programs put kids at risk of a world of hurt.

That's what's wrong with it. It doesn't work.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. I remember CBS talked about this

and told how 80% of those who made the choice with that ring program ended up breaking their promise. If it's your thing than go for it but you shouldn't be ignorant on the issue either.

[EFerrari]

35. So, that's an 80% failure rate.. Those poor kids.

It's just shameful to keep pushing this program on them and setting them up to feel bad about themselves.

[jmowreader]

102. Remember the "Pledge of Purity"?

Oh my. This one was a hoot. One of the secretaries we had at my last job was a fundamentalist. (Okay, not a GOOD fundamentalist--she made one mean rum cake. With real rum.)

Her fundie church was big into the Pledge of Purity. Check this shit out: parents would put their kids in the car, take them to church (without telling them what was going to happen, naturally), stand them in front of every pastor and minister in the church (and there were a bunch of them--I asked her once how many ministers were in the church and she rattled off thirty names without blinking), plus all of the parents in the congregation, and have them take this oath:

I promise to myself, my future husband/wife, my future children, and to my Creator that I will not engage in sexual activity of any kind before marriage but will keep my thoughts and my body pure as a very special gift for the one I marry.

I recognize and cherish the great blessings I will gain from keeping this promise.

I invite the help of my parents, my family and my friends.

I ask you, Father in Heaven, to strengthen me with your faith, wisdom and love to help me keep this promise.

This is about as sincere as a confession obtained through torture...are you going to look down the barrel of two hundred rabid fundamentalists and say, "umm...no, I can't do this, I like having sex too much"?

So she explained to me how wonderful it was that all the teens in church are pledging not to have sex before marriage...I asked her how many of the kids were sticking to it. "Oh, no one would EVER violate an oath to God!" So me being a mean little bastard, I asked her to ask her daughter how many of the other teens in the congregation (remember, everyone swore this) were having sex. It turned out to be about half of them. Some really were sticking to it--but there are kids who would save themselves until marriage no matter what oaths or rings are stuck in front of them. That's always been the case.

I think we're starting to shoot ourselves in the feet over the "just say no" thing. We pump up the "say no to drugs" propaganda, and the drug-use rate skyrockets. We pump up the "say no to sex" propaganda with similar results. I think I'm going to start a "say no" to shit we WANT them to do, like reading books and eating healthy. Obviously all the "say no" campaigns are backfiring, so why not set up a scenario where backfire is the result we want?

[Poppyseedman]

51. Actually abstinence program have worked in cases

These programs put kids at risk of a world of hurt.

Please explain to me why teaching abstinence puts kids at risk of being hurt.

I truly don't understand why it's different than telling kids not to do drugs or get drunk?

We don't tell teenagers it's OK to smoke dope only if you are in love with the feeling of being stoned.

[EFerrari]

58. Well, because in the 8 out of 10 cases where it fails,

the kids in question don't have a plan B. :( Then, the "failing" kids have shame on top of everything else. Nothing like a shamed teenager to keep quiet instead of asking for the help they need to avoid pregnancy or STDs. :(

And the urge to sex easily trumps the peer pressure to smoke dope at that age. Oy.

While abstinence may work in "cases" it has been shown to be really very ineffective in groups and as a policy. So, why on earth are we spending millions of dollars to help our kids fail? It just doesn't make sense.

I'm looking at this strictly from a public health perspective and its consequences for kids. It may make Bush's base feel good and justified but we're putting a bunch of kids at risk. :(

[benny05]

74. My parents weren't around much to advise me

I just took it upon myself to wait until I was in college. Wasn't still prepared emotionally, but I also knew I didn't want to be like others in high school who were attractive, dated a lot, but some of them never made it to college.

I always thought Joselyn Elders was OK to tell teens to practice safe sex too, if they felt the need to have sex. Some do--and do the Bill Clinton thing...meaning oral sex, but even then, they have to be cautioned about that too.

I have a nephew who has practiced abstinence so far, and he is a sophomore in college. One of my nieces waited until she got married (after college), and waited 4 years to have a child.

Recreational drugs are different subject altogether.

[William Bloode]

86. How about this.

What if you stay abstinent till marriage to find you are totally incompatibale with your mate sexually?

Never tell kids don't, simply because many will do it just to spite authority. Same way with drugs and alcohol. I don't tell my kids don't. I tell them it's their choice and to make an informed on, not because i say so.

[benny05]

104. I don't make any judgements on teens and what they do

although this thread seems to be about culture.

I don't have kids.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Because when you give kids phony information

as they do with, for example, D.A.R.E. classes... kids aren't going to believe anything you say, EVER.

Teach kids that abstaining until physically and emotionally ready is a good thing, teach kids that abstinence is the only sure way to prevent pregnancy and STDs.. teach kids that, if they are sexually active, this is what can happen and here are the contraceptive options.. THAT is what sex ed should be about.

And- news flash- that's what it IS about, at least until the Abstinence Jihadi Jesus Patrol crowd gets a hold of it.

But don't use MY fucking tax dollars to peddle some thinly-veiled Bible thumper's opinion that everyone should remain abstinent until married otherwise horrible, awful, unspeakable things will happen. Uh, I don't know where YOU live, but 'round these parts, oftentimes 'kids' don't get married until their late twenties or early thirties. What kind of ridiculous charade is anyone playing if they honestly believe those people will -or even should- remain sexless and chaste until then? I'm a parent, as well- and while I would hope my kids would wait until they are emotionally ready to be sexually active, I sure as SHIT wouldn't want them to marry the first person they really, really want to have sex with , at age 20, just because some preacher looking for extra, 'faith based' state funded cash has filled their heads with gobbledygook about how "true love waits".

That's a recipie for unplanned pregnancies, and it's a recipie for bad marrigaes. Would you want to be married to the first person you ever had sex with? Would it have been a successful, workable marriage? Hey, for all I know, you are and it is. But most people I know, if they answered honestly, would say no.

And back to the DARE classes- yeah, they are a waste of time and money, too. In case you haven't noticed, "Just say no" as a dogma to teach kids, doesn't really work. I don't think they should teach kids to smoke pot, but they sure as shit shouldn't teach 'em that smoking a joint is just as bad as shooting heroin, and will cause them to get date raped or have their testicles fall off.

See, once kids figure out that the authority figures are lyin' through their teeth to them, they aren't going to believe anything- and that includes well meaning, honest advice about addiction, drunk driving, and the dangers of STDs.

And frankly, I wish more of my tax dollars were going towards treatment for addicts. I think the "drug war" is a sham and a waste of time, although it would certainly be preferable to me to have the $40 Billion a year DEA budget -and all the additional cash we waste incarcerating huge numbers of non-violent drug criminals- go towards education instead of prisons, even if that included ridiculous propaganda that no one believes.

I don't know. Maybe being lectured with a laundry list of all the big, bad evils of the world to avoid worked for you- it sure as hell didn't work for any of the people I grew up with.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. My stance is

that you should encourage abstience and for teens to feel like they don't need sex to be popular or acceptance but if they do make the decision to have sex they should be educated from professionals who know what they are talking about because they will have sex one day. So I would want to be informed about diseases, condoms, etc. Having the information out there does not mean you're against abstience if it's your thing.

[CTyankee]

50. Responsible sex educators, like Planned Parenthood, alwasy

include abstinence in their sex ed programs, but they also include accurate medical information. The problem is with "abstinence only until marriage" education which is what Bush is pushing onto kids. No other point of view is allowed. That is irresponsible.

We now have studies confirming that abstinenece only education is likely to INCREASE the chance of an unplanned pregnancy. Kids don't have the facts or have the confidence to make responsible choices in their lives when they don't have the comprehensive information they need. What happens is that they get caught in the passion of the moment and are not prepared to take precautions.

It is criminal not to give kids the information they need to live their lives.

[Poppyseedman]

55. Do you have a source for that info???

We now have studies confirming that abstinence only education is likely to INCREASE the chance of an unplanned pregnancy.

I have done a lot of reading on the subject and don't ever recall seeing any data that claims that information is correct except for organizations with obvious agendas.

When I actually looked at the data the story was far and away biased. The reported data was made to fit the story line they wanted to be printed.

The INCREASE in the chance of an unplanned pregnancy was correct in certain demographic and age range categories, but not overall. Not even close.

[CTyankee]

88. Why don't you try www.agi-usa.org.

Where was your info re other demographic and age range categories that you reference? The Alan Guttmacher Institute has been an icon of accurate sources of information for reproductive issues for many years and for many health departments across the country. AGI is the gold standard. Where are you getting your data from?

[EFerrari]

66. Exactly. But, what does Bushco care?

It's not his daughters.

[emdee]

76. Not one thing....

unless it is the only plan of action.

Laura said that people were criticizing teaching abstinence. I think people are criticizing the plan that stops at abstinence and goes no further.

And, from the looks of Jenna's party photos, Laura needs a backup plan just like the rest of us!

emdee:party:

[snacker]

3. Excuse me while I PUKE.... n/t

[MissB]

4. I'd have no problems with abstinence if my name was Laura Bush.

[Triana]

5. Too bad Duhbya's Mother didn't practice it (n/t)

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. What was Poppy thinking that night?

[mitchum]

19. "Geez, this guy is a lot better at making oatmeal than he is at sex"

[Submariner]

48. Ooooh! You'll burn in HELL for that one

See ya there:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Triana]

112. He wasn't ...

...and his offspring never has, either.

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. Yeah. Like having two daughters and a juvenile delinquent in the house

Good luck.

[Skittles]

7. she really is one stupid cow

f***ing Stepford bush whore

[Straight Shooter]

9. Laura, please put your brain in at least first gear before starting mouth.

As for the rest of it, I guess Laura is one of those people who is attracted to a sick sense of humor. Re: Karla Faye Tucker, "Please don't kill me," he said in a mocking, simpering voice.

[Servotron]

10. If only Prescott Bush's mother hadn't practiced abstinence......

...we could have been spared the whole bloody fascist lot of them.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

11. sure, she can talk... black widow bitch she is

just kills them off

[Rose Siding]

12. A special gift: She can hear people act.

What's that sound like?

[sabra]

13. good one... :-)

[Moochy]

14. Twins!!!

"moments of tension when 13-year-old girls are acting like 13-year-old girls"

Yeah their binge drinking was problematic even back then... :evilgrin:

[blogslut]

15. Just say no, ladies.

Simple as that! Oh and valium...lots of valium.

[mitchum]

16. Laura, you're familiar with impotence, not abstinence...

too much booze and coke will do that to a guy

[Deja Q]

17. And I thought incest was illegal and immoral... and on a table, no less!

:hurts:

Anything is a choice. Unfortunately, basic urges conflict with such pedantic "rationalization" of choices. This is where "human rights" laws come into play...

Just to make sure I haven't caused any misunderstandings: The contents of the Subject line is meant to be humorous only. O8)

[elehhhhna]

21. Laura's new motto; Just Say No

[Lisa]

24. speaking as someone who actually practices it ...

I strongly believe that abstinence is only one of many different options -- and I am determined that people should have access to as many options as possible, regardless of their circumstances. Just because I've led a solitary existence for almost all of my nearly-40 years doesn't mean that I want to impose the same situation on anybody else -- regardless of sexual orientation. (And for the record, almost all the people who've sneered and called me "abnormal" have been right-wingers.)

Hey, you said it yourself, Laura -- it's "A" choice, not "THE" choice (despite what your husband and his supporters are trying to foist on us).

And now, I suppose that Laura is going to get all high and mighty with me because I've actually had fewer serious relationships than she's had. (Unless she was fibbing about that guy in high school, mentioned in her biography.) So I wonder ... since I got through my teens without having sex, will Laura and Co. be keen to follow my suggestions? Oh, right -- I'm one of those awful liberals, so of course that doesn't count.


p.s. growing up, I actually had better access to sex education than most of my classmates -- sex ed classes were still being introduced into the schools in my area, in the 1970s -- and my mom was a public health nurse, so I knew quite a bit about the human reproductive process early on. (More than the kid next door, who was firmly convinced that "if you want to have a boy baby, you marry a boy".)

[SmokingJacket]

56. I think excellent sex education lets kids make good choices.

I had one of those good 80's sex educations, condom on the banana and all. They didn't tell us WHAT TO DO, because telling teenagers what to do in a sanctimonious way just makes them do the opposite. My classes told me exactly what it was all about, no preaching. And I decided I wanted to wait. The mystery was removed, and I made an intellectual decision that a) I didn't want to get pregnant, because I wanted neither a baby nor an abortion, b) I didn't want a sexually transmitted disease, and c) I wanted it to be with someone really, really great.

"Abstinence education" doesn't work because it's an attempt to preach to kids -- it's an imposition of a belief system rather than an education. Giving them accurate and honest information is the only way to go.

[Lisa]

97. yes, demystification sure helps ...

I know there's a stage where pre-teen girls giggle and speculate about what men's penises look like ... but because Mom would be reviewing stuff for work, there would be a urology text on our coffee table at home, with life-sized full-color photos of the aforementioned organ.

What I still remember after all these years is the plastic model of a birth canal, with the baby's head entering it. I would look at it and think, yikes! That's gotta hurt! I was about 7 or 8 at the time -- Mom carefully explained to me that "down there" does stretch, plus there are exercises you can do, and painkillers which help. She added that if a mommy is very young, and not really prepared, having a baby can make you rather sore, so it's best for you and the baby if you wait until you're a grown-up before you try. I now realize that at the time, she was teaching pre-natal classes to a lot of teenage moms, and I guess she was hoping that I wouldn't be among them. And then Dad (a truant officer) added that almost every day he talked to moms who couldn't go to school anymore because they needed to stay home with the baby. They didn't even have time to hang out with their friends, and often they had to work really terrible jobs because the daddy didn't stay around to help. (I remember my coats and mittens would disappear as soon as I outgrew them, because Dad was giving them to those families he was visiting.)

So when my friends were talking about how great it would be to have babies of our own, I said that I didn't want to think about that until I was really old (like about 20!), because then I would know what to do and it wouldn't hurt. Plus I wouldn't have to worry about going to school, and getting a job, and looking after the baby all at the same time.

p.s. Some of those friends did end up getting pregnant ... ignorance about sex and human relationships, plus having a not-so-secret desire for a "cute little baby", are a pretty disasterous combination.

[hobbit709]

25. Too bad she didn't

teach it to her daughters-especially Jenna.

[Kurovski]

26. So, Laura is of a sudden going "feminist"?

On another note, is it just me, or have her English skills diminished somewhat in the past five years?

And finally, "Defusing tense moments..." Yeah, we've all noticed that George is a real GENIUS when it comes to that sort of thing. And overall, the laugh-riot in Iraq is really just too much.

[rodeodance]

27. well, Laura--you REALLY irritate me---not just 'sorta"

[rodeodance]

28. the language of 'choice' is buzzword talk

[salin]

29. if snarky, cruel cutdowns are "funny"

I sorta think its a sad image to think of his mean humour being tossed around to denigrate the 13 year olds in order to "defuse" the 13 year olds.

[Lisa]

38. remember "the whining pool"!

Good point about the mean edge to his "humor". My family is pretty smart-assed, with a low tolerance for anyone who expects ego-stroking, but we NEVER say disrespectful things about each other in front of complete strangers -- let alone reporters who will spread it across the entire country.

When's the last time we've ever heard Bush spontaneously going off on how beautiful, accomplished, caring, etc., his girls are? With that kind of attitude at home, no wonder they aren't devoted to schoolwork and public service. They probably tried to please their folks at first, but round-the-clock snarkiness would have taken care of that, for sure. They likely suppressed their hurt and resentment, and lived for the day when they could move out.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bush became downright jealous, when they did do well at something -- wouldn't want Laura giving them her attention instead of focusing on him, would he!

[salin]

42. window to his attitude

paraphrasing his statement to a reporter: I've been to war, and I've had twins; given the choice I would rather go to war.

I think you are on point per his likely jealousy.

[seabeyond]

31. was she a virgin when she married george? reporters owes us

this question. the reason why us adults do see abstinence as a choice is because we did not see it as a real choice when we were young. shit i was 32 before i got married. a 32 yr old virgin? i dont think so. get married at 18 so i am not a 32 yr old virgin, waiting until i found a man i wanted to marry? i dont think so. i would have been a divorced family by......

are her daughters virgins? i dont think so

a reason we go beyond the easy to say, impossible to do, abstinence is a real choice

[Yupster]

37. Are her daughters virgins?

I've wondered about kids of presidents, not just Bush's but anyones.

It's got to be pretty difficult dating when you have secret service guys around you. Does a sixteen year old tell the secret service guys to hang back awhile while we go parking?

I also wonder if they are afraid that if they have affairs it will end up in the newspapers.

I wouldn't be surprised if kids of presidents miss out on a lot of stuff regular kids do.

[seabeyond]

47. well our barbara and jenna arent. havent you seen some of the

pictures? looking like they are having way more fun than i, even with secret service adn cameras, lol

[Gemini Cat]

34. This is PUKE Stupid.

STFU Laura.

[sproutster]

36. Yea Laura, let's hear it for the evil date rape victims!! It's all their

fault

[benburch]

40. "Dime Bag" Laura Bush spread herself around!

Obviously it was not HER choice.

[William Bloode]

87. That was my first thought.

My very first though was i am quite sure she did not stay abstinent till marriage, nor her hubby either.

[Diane R]

41. I'm certain the twins practice absinence.

Being proper Christian young ladies, and all.

[undeterred]

43. It is a choice. People do have control over their sexuality.

But were Laura and George abstinent before they married each other? Are they faithful to each other now or is someone sneaking into the White House to gratify George? Did they raise their daughters to wait until marriage for sex? Did the Bushes make a choice when they were young adults to be abstinent until marriage?

Because if they didn't, then they sure as hell don't have a right to tell other people that they should make it.

[AnnieBW]

44. Abstinence is NOT A Choice!

At least for women in 3rd World countries. What happens to a woman in Africa when she says "no" to a man who wants to have sex with her? Usually, they laugh right before she's raped.

How about preaching abstinence to the MEN?

[undeterred]

54. Wow... where did you get your view of

3rd world men and women? Its pretty extreme.

[EFerrari]

77. Maybe. But in some countries, women are property

just as goats and land are. And often valued less than goats or land. :(

[TahitiNut]

45. So, the ONLY reason women fuck is "to comply with the wishes of men"???

Well, I'm sure as hell glad I'm not a woman, then. (Maybe Laura was merely speaking for herself.)

[notadmblnd]

46. Nope, I've been abstinate for 3 years

and it's not by choice. My sister kids me and says I couldn't get laid if I carried around a mattress ana box of condoms. At my age, there just is not a pool of eligable Mr. right nows.

[SammyWinstonJack]

53. Just say NO!

What an airhead! Oh yeah, and I'll bet Drunky McCokehead was home for dinner, sober even. :rofl:

[dogday]

60. Quick! someone grab her medication....

she is having an independent thought and we can't have that.....

[Libby2]

63. She doesn't have a damned clue.

I'm sure she is winning friends and influencing people, just like Karen Hughes.

[DemExpat]

65. I want to puke whenever she opens her mouth....

:puke: :argh: :puke:

DemEx

[EFerrari]

69. She reminds me of a bot they had at the entrance to our beach

amusement park, "Laughing Sal". Sal had a very creepy laugh and most kids grabbed their parents' hands when they had to walk by her:



:scared:

[SPKrazy]

68. Wonder If Jenna and Barbara Practice Abstinence?

My guess is a big NO

but I don't know

[TahitiNut]

75. Maybe it's like 'piano practice' ... an hour each day?

:evilgrin:

[rman]

71. sure it a real choice - for clergy

as for the rest of us, it's so unnatural.

And we know about *'s sense of humor...

www.musicforamerica.org/bushjoke

[laylah]

78. Without having read

her drivel, she and her ilk want abstinence to be the ONLY option. Of course, I am sure she has "forgotten" how she f*cked like a bunny when SHE was a teenager! :puke: Jenn

[Carni]

81. In this case Laura Bush is right

What's that vulgar saying? (I wouldn't blank him with someone else's blank)

Anyway if I were Laura I too would DEFINITELY choose abstinence!

[Rosemary2205]

82. Abstinence isn't always a choice

Some women in the world have the freedom to say no, but there are too many women in this world that don't get that choice.

[Carni]

91. Oh geez- give me a break

Ever hear of sarcasm?

I said in HER case she is making the right choice.

You know like as in who would have sex with George W?

It was said in jest obviously and I think abstinence is an asinine concept.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. So, as millions of my tax $$$ are blown for "Abstinence until marriage"

programs, I'd like to ask Pickles how those two unmarried twentysomething daughters of her are doing, you know, abstaining.

And we'll have to ASSUME they're not using the birth control pill- you know, the one that the Republican Platform states should be criminalized.

[dogday]

89. It works for her and George ..........except

for that one night she got drunk....

[Berserker]

90. I love that sense of humour angle

some women always say. If it were true then why the hell is carrot top still single?

[B Calm]

92. Counting our votes is a choice too!

[uppityperson]

93. Abstinance is a choice, until you get raped.

[B Calm]

94. We were RAPED in the last two Presidential elections, what did

the rapists tell us? Get over it!!

[DanCa]

96. Pickles always supports our troops.

Rumour has it she's been very , very good to the core.

[benny05]

99. If DanCA u are the same Person on OAC B

It's nice to know that you blog here, but you are a Wes Clark supporter. This may be why some of us have been puzzled by your opinions on the OAC blog.

I'm not puttin' you down because of your support of Wes Clark; however for conservative/moderate views and because I am a moderate progressive, it is my view you have posted more than enough contrary content for many of us One America Committee bloggers to be chewing on. My hope is that you will admit to the rest of us that you are a Clarkie. Clarkies will appreciate it, and we on OAC will know why you are not congruent in our views. It's OK, just as JRE would say, "Tell us the Truth" or respond to: "The truth of the matter is...(and finish the sentence)."
Benny

[DanCa]

100. Benny I have not blogged anywhere else in quite some time.

In fact for nearly over a year since I got rid of America Online and lost my old passwords. Besides I dont know what y ou mean by contary, I am just being myself. I dont care what other people think of me or if I fit in the mold of what it must mean to back a certain candidate. . And yes I am a clark supporter. I think he's truly a great and compassionate man who deserves the presidency. Have a great weekend Danny.
Oh btw the answer to your question is no, if the post are current I am not him. I really haven't been blogging anywhere but DU. Except for harpplayers and parkinsons boards.

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. I think you have the wrong guy here. Dan is here all the time

and if he says you're wrong, you're wrong. It's not the same guy. Does the guy on your board post about Parkinson at all? That's a something we here at DU know about Dan because he posts about it all the time. Do you know where your Dan from your board is from? I know where OUR Dan is from. Post where your guy is from and I'll tell you if it's him or not.

He said it's not him posting on your board and I believe him.

[benny05]

103. Often people with same handles and

Post other places. There are few of us who post in many places, not just here. I didn't accuse otherwise when he said so. I apologize sincerely to DanCa as now that something is mentioned something unique about DanCa, I recognize now he is from Illinois, and not the same guy who posts very "freeper-like" on OAC blog. Please, incognito, I admire your kinship with him, but to be truthful, I have found that DanCa's positions on the Illinois forum have been pretty darn good.

Thanks,
Benny

[DanCa]

109. Benny it's okay theres 80000 plus on DU accidents happen

were good no harm no foul. I was more worried that someone was going around impersonating me. I am glad that this is all cleared up. It's all good really.

[3waygeek]

98. Well I've been abstinent for almost 20 years...

but it's not by choice. At least, not by my choice :-(

[dchill]

105. Guess what, Pickles...

It didn't work for me. I had to vote - I just couldn't abstain. "...Funny at the dinner table" - you mean they think horrible manners and vomiting are funny, right?

[qanda]

106. Does anyone here still believe she is off-limits?

[robbedvoter]

108. Agree, Pickles. If W would be the last man on Earth, I'd just say NO

We need to have some genetic standards when deciding whether to propagate the species or not.. You apparently didn't, so, who the F* are you to preach?

[ikojo]

114. Have her daughters chosen abstinence?

Somehow I seriously doubt either of them are virgins. Why this emphasis on virginity anyway? It also seems like the pressure is on the girl to abstain whereas guys are free to do as they wish. If guys are "sowing their wild oats" as my mom used to say, with whom are they sowing these oats if girls are supposed to remain virginal? Surely it's not other guys, why that would give Jerry Fallwell and other Bush advisors heart attacks!