The Osama bin Laden I know - Peter Bergen on CSPAN2 NOW

[Viva_La_Revolution]

The Osama bin Laden I Know: An Oral History of al Qaeda's Leader
Peter Bergen

In his latest book, "The Osama bin Laden I Know," Peter Bergen publishes first-hand accounts by bin Laden's family members and close friends to document bin Laden's transformation from a shy teenager into the commander of one the largest terrorist groups in the world. Mr. Bergen shares some of the accounts described in his book and answers questions from audience members. This event was hosted by Politics & Prose in Washington, DC.

Peter Bergen, a fellow at the New America Foundation and an adjunct professor at the School of Advanced International Studies at John Hopkins University, is the author of "Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Bin Laden." He is a terrorism analyst for CNN and has written for the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic and Rolling Stone. For more information, visit www.peterbergen.com .

Publisher: Free Press 1230 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10020



On Saturday, January 21 at 6:00 pm and Sunday, January 22 at 10:00 pm

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. nobody?

:crickets:

[H2O Man]

2. I think it is

fascinating. Thanks for letting us know it's on. It has very valuable information on the formation of al Qaeda.

[H2O Man]

3. PS: Nominated n/t

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. Thanks. I thought I was the only one that cared!

Book TV Schedule January 21-23
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x199787#200041
Great programs this weekend! Peter Bergen, John Perkins, George Lakoff and more.

[H2O Man]

6. He raises issues

that force both democrats and republicans to re-think some of their previously held beliefs on Usama bin Laden, and hence the state of affairs in the USA since 2001.

[tnlefty]

18. Could you possibly provide more details on this line of thought?

I didn't get to see this and I'm curious about the previously held beliefs.

[H2O Man]

22. Okay.

Many republicans have been invested in the myth that Usama bin Laden is an insane boogieman who hates us for our freedoms, and that he is on the radical fringes of Islam. In fact, he is a fairly rational, thoughtful, fundie-prude who believes he is justified in using extreme violence to protect the Muslim world from western aggression and Jewish influences. While he is more extreme in his faith than most, he has a wide-spread degree of respect because of his ability to put the modern circumstances in historical perspective; to quote his scriptures; to motivate relatively well-educated people; and the guts to challenge the great satan.

Democrats have also mistaken who he really is, and what he represents in terms of a potential threat to this country. Again, I respect that everyone has the right to their opinion. I have good friends who believe very differently than me; I used the example of a friend with a PhD who is convinced that bin Laden is a CIA product controlled by Bush. Yet, as I note in other places on this thread, that is not true. If one considers -- not accepts because H2O Man says so, but considers and does the appropriate research -- that he is not CIA, how would this impact one's beliefs about things like 9-11 and/or the recent tape of him speaking? Again, people should come to their own conclusions, but there are distinct advantages to being able to find new ways of viewing information.

[rodeodance]

7. been listening ==

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. Second the vote..... nt.

[EFerrari]

8. Here! I was seeing Doug off to a gig. Listening now. n/t

[rodeodance]

9. interesting excerpt here--obl name alquida alquida cause WE called it

that. but berger says not true.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/18/13810/7770

.......In some circles it has become fashionable to suggest that bin Laden has not been especially significant to the global jihadist movement, or that al Qaeda has always, in reality, been only a loose knit collection of like-minded Islamist militant groups, or even that al Qaeda is an organization that was fabricated by US law enforcement. The fullest exposition of this point of view was made in 2004 in the three-hour BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares," directed by Adam Curtis, which argued that "Beyond his small group, bin Laden had no formal organization, until the Americans invented one for him."

Curtis claims that al Qaeda was first "invented" in 2001 when US prosecutors put four men involved in the 1998 plot to blow up two US embassies in east Africa on trial in New York. During the trial they drew heavily on the testimony of former bin Laden aide Jamal al-Fadl, who Curtis explains spun a story about the Saudi militant that would make it easier for US prosecutors to target bin Laden using conspiracy laws that had previously put Mafia bosses behind bars. Curtis says: "The picture al-Fadl drew for the Americans of bin Laden was of an all-powerful figure at the head of a large terrorist network that had an organized network of control. He also said that bin Laden had given this network a name, al Qaeda. But there was no organization. These were militants who mostly planned their own operations and looked to bin Laden for funding and assistance. He was not their commander. There is also no evidence that bin Laden used the term 'al Qaeda' to refer to the name of a group until after 11th September, when he realized that this was the term the Americans had given it."

All of these assertions are nonsense. There is overwhelming evidence that al Qaeda was founded in 1988 by bin Laden and a small group of like-minded militants, and that the group would eventually mushroom into the secretive, disciplined, global organization dominated by bin Laden that implemented the 9/11 attacks. That evidence can be found in the documents in this chapter, which were recovered in Bosnia in 2002, and can also be found in the interviews throughout this book.

What follows are excerpts of a key document: The minutes of the first meeting about the establishment of al Qaeda on August 11, 1988. This document outlines the discussion between bin Laden, referred to as the "the Sheikh," and Abu Rida, or Mohamed Loay Bayazid, to discuss the formation of a "new military group," which would include "al Qaeda (the base)." Abu Rida refers to a disagreement with Abdullah Azzam, with whom bin Laden had founded the Mektab al Khidmat (Services Office).

[H2O Man]

10. Very important information.

Thanks.

[EFerrari]

11. My view is probably very unpopular.

I believe Peter believes the narrative he is following.

And more and more, I believe that narrative was laid down for good people like him to discover. :(

[H2O Man]

12. There cannot be

"very unpopular" views among friends. We should have as many different opinions as we have people participating in the discussion. We should respect differences in interpreting the same general set of facts.

That said, he followed records from a wide range of sources over a significant period of time. I am not aware of anything from, for example, the days that Usama bin Laden was fighting in Afghanistan that contradicts what he has wrote.

[EFerrari]

13. How does he explain UBL's CIA connections

(as reported, anyway) and then the complete underestimation of his influence? Let alone, the way he pops up like bank charges when Bush needs support?

I sincerely hope I'm just being paranoid, but the timing, the convenience of his intrusions into our national dialogue seem to contradict that.

:(

[H2O Man]

14. It is interesting

to note that Bergen as well as Gore Vidal have noted that Usama bin Laden has no documented CIA connections. While he certainly fought in Afghanistan against the Soviets, and that was the largest, most successful CIA operation ever, there are no records that indicate that bin Laden had any direct connection to the Agency. Keep in mind that in 13 years, literally hundreds - even thousands - of Americans ("...uniformed military personnel, intelligence officers, analysts, logisticians, military trainers, medics, geographers, imagery analysts, demolition experts, mule skinners, communication specialists, and cartographers..." from Michael Scheuers' Imperial Hubris, page 28) kept substantial records at the time, and a huge, huge amount is available to the public, if one cares to research.

Usama bin Laden was recruited by a Saudi intelligence officer, Prince Turki, who had an association with the Muslim Brotherhood. Usama was from the Wahhabist branch of Islam, and not prone to being a puppet of any foreign, non-Muslim force.

There are, of course, hundreds of articles authored since the mid-1990s that claim Usama had connections to the CIA. None have any evidence from the Afghanistan experience. They speculate, in my opinion based upon confusing CIA support of substantial Islamic forces involved in the war against the Soviet Union. Having associations with common allies does not equate with a direct relationship, however.

[EFerrari]

15. That's a very important point.

I have been asuming that he was a CIA creation all this time. Time to revisit that assumption carefully.

[orwell]

19. Paging Tim Osman...

...as long as we're speculating...

http://www.orlingrabbe.com/binladin_timosman.htm

There is no doubt that the Bush Crime family is deeply connected to the bin Ladens. It does not seem that far fetched that "black sheep" Osama could be an intelligence operative. It is more far fetched that it is pure coincidence that the family of the world's most wanted man is so chummy with the family who "gave us" two Presidents of the United States.

It is documented that agents were taken off bin Laden's trail prior to 9/11 as soon as Bush took office, that bin Laden's "capture" has been botched many times, the latest being Tora Bora, that the bin Ladens in the US were whisked away when nobody in the country could fly, that bin Laden money man James Bath was the early partner in Bushies oil patch fiascos, that bin Laden "tapes" appear every time el Bushbo is in political hot water, that the most sophisticated global intelligence operation the world has ever known just can't find him.

All coincidence?

[H2O Man]

20. Without question

the Bush family has strong connections to the bin Laden family. I would not think that increases the probability that Usama is an intelligence operative that is connected to the Bush family. I'm not sure if there is any coincidence in the Bush family, with its connections to the oil industry, would have connections to many, if not most, of the other powerful oil families that it does business with.

Your points about the lack of intensity with which the Bush administration are extremely important, and are absolutely worthy of our most serious consideration. Each one is of the same amount of significance if one believes as you do, or as I do. In each case, we share a very similar view of the Bush administration and their failure to provide for the safety of this country, to have any respect for the Constitution, or for the innocent victims of their violence.

No coincidence there.

[EVDebs]

25. Domestic vs. Intnl Surveillance and OBL

Total Surveillance
http://www.motherjones.com/interview/2005/12/albrecht.h ...

Coupling this insidious technology with purposely erroneous background checks

Who is checking the background checkers?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p13s02-wmgn.html

They've offshored, outsourced, and privatized TIA (to Global Information Group Ltd. in the Bahamas). Now all they have to do is fire you for being 'of the wrong political party' and put false information in your background data...and voila ! You've just created the most insidious terror project INSIDE the US.

A recent link by Sen Kerry obliquely refers to this. I wish the Senator would just plainly state, as Walter Cronkite did in Oct 2004 on Larry King, that Karl Rove is doling out OBL tapes !

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Our NSA is either covering mightily for an incompetent administration or is holding back essential information and allowing OBL & Co. to continue in operation, much as a Ted Shackley 'Third Option' operation would allow for. In the meantime, domestic surveillance violating 300 million US citizens' 1st and 4th Amendment rights are being rubberstamped to allow this charade to continue.

When Wal-Mart can track underwear I just bought with RFIDs and they can't track med equipment for the 6' Saudi with health problems, as Sen Kerry alluded to, you know something's rotten in Denmark.

But remember, OBL has a kidney dialysis problem. If the NSA et al couldn't have tracked THAT equipment into the Afgan/Pakistan remote mountains, HOUSTON, we have a problem. The then Carlyle Group-owned Le Figaro noted that the CIA had a meeting with OBL in July 2001 in Dubai...For what it's worth H2OMan.

[Grateful for Hope]

17. I think I get what you are saying

and, I think I agree.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

16. Now watching the Bernard Lewis Interview. Amazing info

Hopefully it will replay, or they will post the video on CSPANs site.

Don't forget - Confessions of an Economic Hitman is on at 9pm Eastern/6pm Pacific

[H2O Man]

21. It looks like on Sunday

they will be having another bin Laden show on. I'm not sure what one it is, but hopefully I can wrestle the remote from my young daughters.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

23. Embracing the Infidel looks good

Embracing the Infidel: Stories of Muslim Migrants on the Journey West
Make the girls watch- it's E.du.ca.tion.al. :P Well, unless they are too young.

This one however, looks like it's worth missing
Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World
John Hagee - sounds like a nutjob.

[H2O Man]

24. Sounds like good programs

are coming up in the next few days.

My daughters watch some news with me every day. They are 8 and 11. The 11-year old is reading Joe Conason's "Big Lies" now. It is fun for me to listen to her and her friends talk about politics and social issues. Kids care about the world around them, and even the kids from republican households say their parents are having doubts about this administration.

[EVDebs]

26. More of the Left Behind eschatology

Read the sources of that pre-Tribulation-rapture eschatology, along with the Muslim mahdi--who sounds much like an 'antichrist'.

The Catholic Origins of Futurism, Preterism
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

shows the role of CounterReformation Jesuits in creating the Left Behind novels, and Bush's base, end-times beliefs. These beliefs merge into much of OBL's anti-Greater Israel rantings:

see http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/greater-israel.htm
especially at the bottom with 'Forcing God's Hand' book mentioned !

OBL deftly merges these Muslim and Arab fears, just as Bush plays upon US terror fears.

[Celebration]

27. Tora Bora?

Any take on why we allowed him to escape? This one fact is damning.

[dchill]

29. "We" needed him...

He's Bush's poster boy for the War On Terra. No Osama, no War. No war, no "traitors" (Democrats) to oppose it. Therefore, Osama gets protected.

[raysr]

28. Hey Bergen

Does OBL really work for Rove?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

30. REPEATING NOW

KICK!

[H2O Man]

31. I'm watching

it again.