How can you convince a pro-lifer to vote for a pro-choice Democrat?

[sonroadera]

I have a family member who is NOT a right wing freak, and she is growing more and more disappointed with Bush and the GOP. She is on the fence on our November race for governor but the only problem is she feels guilty about voting for pro-choice Democrats. What information could I give her to win her over? She isn't ever going to be an enthusiastic pro-choicer, but I think I can convince her that in the grand scheme of things, Republicans don't "support life." She is disgusted by the Republican love of War. She thinks that Republican policies make life much harder for the poor. I feel very close to winning her over for 06 and 08, and any information would be much appreciated.

If there is an older helpful thread about this, it would be nice if you could provide a link.

Thanks,
SON

[lonestarnot]

1. How can she be a prolifer and support a war that KILLS innocent

people every day, one that was based on lies?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. With All Due Respect, The OP Seemed To Make It Clear That She Does Not

support the war.

[dsc]

7. That poster will be only the first not to actually read the post

Mention pro life and many people won't read a damn word after that.

[lonestarnot]

23. I was referring to her friend, sorry I wasn't clear and the friend

apparently does not like bushitler's war either, however to cast a vote for a repiglican, you cast a vote for war. So what the hell is she besides a one issuer. Tired of these people ruining the country with ignorance.

[RB TexLa]

2. ask her if she wants there to be less abortions or if she just wants

a law against it. Then show her the abortion rates under Bush and Clinton.

[sonroadera]

9. Where can I get that info?

That is the kind of stuff I am looking for.

[moc]

17. Let me look for a link. I have a data book from the CDC that has these

sorts of data.

Be right back.

[moc]

22. Okay, here's the link to the induced abortion chapter

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/Products&Pubs/DatatoAction/pdf/rhow6.pdf

The other place to look is on the NCHS website: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/

[sonroadera]

26. Thank you very much!

:toast:

[moc]

31. My pleasure!

:toast:

[Susang]

41. This is the recognized authority on that kind of information

http://www.guttmacher.org/index.html

All sorts of interesting data on that website.

[blm]

3. GOP pols don't care about pro-life ISSUE, they care about pro-life VOTES

If they had the will to change the law they would have done so by now - they have had total control of government for years now. Instead they peck at it every now and then for show, and then secretly get their daughters, wives and girlfriends abortions as needed.

[Wonk]

5. Pro-choice doesn't mean forcing her to have an abortion against her will.

Or anyone else, for that matter.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Bad Argument That's Sure To Not Win Her Over.

We aren't going to get people over to our side by talking to them as if they are stupid. This woman obviously knows that no one is going to force her to have one, but just simply has reservations about the choice concept itself. Not because she thinks that one could be forced on her, but because she views the fetus as a life that shouldn't be able to be discarded so easily in her opinion. If we are to convince pro-lifers to vote for those who are pro-choice, we will have to forge much more thoughtful arguments than "Pro-choice doesn't mean forcing her to have an abortion against her will.". Just my take.

[Wonk]

20. I think anyone who would decide how to vote based only on that single

issue IS stupid, and authoritarian to boot. Not a good combination, in my books.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. You're Entitled, But The OP's Asking For Help For The Friend, Not Disdain.

My point was that regardless of personal feelings, the advice on what to say to the friend was poor. Any chance we have to convert someone who is on our side should be taken seriously and the advice given more thoughtful. If we treated everyone who voted for or was on the fence with voting for a republican with contempt, we'd never win an election ever again...

[dsc]

6. Whatever you do don't invite her to this forum

A few positive things to do

1) Ask her what progress they have made on abortion in the five years they had total control. The answer is not too much. Abortion rates are stagnant after nearly half a decade of steady declines.

2) work the war angle. We have had over 3000 deaths in the war and that is not counting Iraqi deaths.

Good luck.

[rusty charly]

8. Pro-Choice supports people who do not want abortions.

Choice means you live by your values, I live by mine.

Anti-Choice means everyone lives by their values. Just like the Taliban.

[stepnw1f]

10. Give the Number of Deaths under GOP Control Versus Dem Control

Facts are facts... if one states that they are "Pro-Life, then they should never vote Republican. Look at the illegal war Bush lied America into... for oil. Unfortunately, these idiots really believe the GOP is anti-abortion when in fact, it's just a political ploy to state they are against abortion to sucker these "pro-lifers" into voting for the GOP.

[Vinca]

12. Pro-choice means choosing to keep the government out of

your uterus. Many who are pro-choice are also pro-life. Republicans push "abstinence only" and in the real world, that ends up with more pregnancies and more abortions. They've got to stop demonizing Democrats over this. Tell her we're not a bunch of hair-brained killers running around the countryside with suction machines.

[sonroadera]

18. The abstinence angle is one I haven't thought of

I know it is unrealistic and leaves our children underinformed, but do you have any proof that it actually increases unwanted pregnances?

[Vinca]

27. No - just remembering when I was a horny teenager.

Lack of birth control wasn't a barrier to sex.

[buddhamama]

13. humanity

assuming they have any. save a life by voting Democratic; their social policies due far more to benefit children than bogus 'sanctity of life' Republicans.

[Armstead]

14. "You don;t have to destroy the US to advance your opposition to abortion"

That's what I'd say.

It is possible to support a pro-life position and even lobby against abortion rights in ways other than voting based on that one issue.

It's a mistake to support a politician who agrees with you on that issue, but is destroying the United States in other ways from the economy to the quality of life to basic survival of the species.

Even if you are opposed to another politician's position on abortion, you can still vote for them because of the rest of the issues, and also continue to do otthr things to fight abortion, through education, protests and counseling services.

If the US goes down the tubes and becomes unlivable in otehr ways because the wrong crowd is elected, the issue of abortion will be irrelevant anyway.

[moc]

15. Does she want to be "pro-life" or "pro-birth"?

I am a Catholic, and I have very many pro-life friends. Some are one issue voters who vote repub because of the anti-abortion issue, but most of them, definitely the more thoughtful and spiritual ones, vote Democratic because they see "pro-life" as being defined more broadly than by the legality of abortion.

"Pro-life" means you don't support the death penalty either.

"Pro-life" means you support services to enhance the health and well-being of mothers and children, both during pregnancy and after birth, including, but not limited to: expansions of Medicaid and WIC, supporting universal health care, and supporting a living wage. Supporting health in its broadest definition is the only way to be truly "pro-life".

Making abortion illegal won't reduce its incidence. We know from cross-national comparisons that countries with the most lenient abortion laws have the lowest abortion rates. Those with the most restrictive (like the US) have the highest abortion rates. So, if the goal is to reduce the incidence of abortion, we need to look at the most effective means. Part is expanding safety nets as described above, since financial constraints is one of the most commonly cited reasons for terminating a pregnancy. The other is to expand access to family planning information and resources.

"Pro-life" means valuing all life equally, regardless of color, creed, etc. So, pre-emptive wars that kill 100s of thousands are abhorrent if one is truly pro-life.

[agates]

16. Talk about reducing the need for abortions

Most pro-choice candidates also have a record of supporting actions that will cut the number of abortions. Access to contraception, quality sex education and progressive policies that help the economically disadvantaged will result in fewer women feeling the need to choose abortion. Clinton's "safe, legal, and rare" approach can resonate with a reasonable pro-lifer.

[serryjw]

19. She sounds like a smart woman that can be reached.

The target was never ROE but rather Griswold. They want all of us to be 'barefoot & pregnant' and send us back to the kitchen. Good article, Part 1 & 2

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/4/12/0128/86898
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/12/215218/131

[Jacobin]

21. Most 'pro lifers'

Feel that way when it applies to other people's situations. When an unfortunate pregnancy happens to a very young girl in their family, or when there is a pregnancy of a family member caused by rape, I find that these 'pro-lifers' turn on a dime...on a dime. I've received calls from some of these people asking where a 'clinic is'. I have witnessed three situations like this from Fox Watching, EXtreme RW Bushbots and if the circumstances weren't so sad, it would have been very very funny.

If she wants the government to tell women who are pregnant that they must carry their embryos to term regardless of the circumstances, tell her that it was never that way in this country until relatively recently. Maybe some books about this country in the 1700s and 1800s and what women did to terminate pregnancies? Does all this new found concern for embryos really have a rational basis, and especially for a woman?

I'm still in awe at the power of propaganda

[roseBudd]

24. Point out the reality of criminalized abortion. Ask her what the legal

ramifications should be and who she thinks should go to jail. Ask her what steps the government should take to catch abortion law breakers. Then direct her to this article on abortion in latin america.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html?ex=1302235200&en=d855d80018cd6c56&ei=5088&partner=rssuserland

In this new movement toward criminalization, El Salvador is in the vanguard. The array of exceptions that tend to exist even in countries where abortion is circumscribed — rape, incest, fetal malformation, life of the mother — don't apply in El Salvador. They were rejected in the late 1990's, in a period after the country's long civil war ended. The country's penal system was revamped and its constitution was amended. Abortion is now absolutely forbidden in every possible circumstance. No exceptions.

There are other countries in the world that, like El Salvador, completely ban abortion, including Malta, Chile and Colombia. El Salvador, however, has not only a total ban on abortion but also an active law-enforcement apparatus — the police, investigators, medical spies, forensic vagina inspectors and a special division of the prosecutor's office responsible for Crimes Against Minors and Women, a unit charged with capturing, trying and incarcerating an unusual kind of criminal.

snip

Today, Article 1 of El Salvador's constitution declares that the prime directive of government is to protect life from the "very moment of conception." The penal code detailing the Crimes Against the Life of Human Beings in the First Stages of Development provides stiff penalties: the abortion provider, whether a medical doctor or a back-alley practitioner, faces 6 to 12 years in prison. The woman herself can get 2 to 8 years. Anyone who helps her can get 2 to 5 years. Additionally, judges have ruled that if the fetus was viable, a charge of aggravated homicide can be brought, and the penalty for the woman can be 30 to 50 years in prison.

snip

To begin with, when a woman might face jail time for an abortion, she's less likely to discuss her pregnancy at all. According to a study on attempted suicide and teen pregnancy published last year by academics at the University of El Salvador, some girls who poison their wombs with agricultural pesticide (its efficacy being a Salvadoran urban legend) would rather report the cause of their resulting hospital visit as "attempted suicide," which is not as felonious a crime nor as socially unbearable as abortion. "They don't want to be interviewed about abortion," Irma Elizabeth Asencio, one of the study's authors, explained to me. "They know they have committed a crime."

[thereismore]

25. You can't. They will vote for a 3rd party - like the Constitutional party.

[Warpy]

28. A government that thinks it has the right to forbid abortion

can later think it has the right to force it, like they do in China.

That should do it.

Mention Pat Robertson and how he's all in favor of the abortions they do in China against a woman's will, when she really wants her baby. Remind her that these men really don't care what she thinks, they'll do what's expedient.

Tell her that trusting women is always better than trusting politicians.

[sonroadera]

30. That is another angle I haven't thought of

If the government has control of your womb, they may have different plans for it down the road.

[Warpy]

35. Mao was pro birth

and abortion was practically unheard of. His pro natalist policies are the main reason the country is so overpopulated now and why such Draconian birth control had to be instituted for their survival.

[iamjoy]

29. Respect, Respect, Respect

there are lots of tactics you could take, but first and foremost RESPECT her Pro-Life view and do not try to change it or get into the seemingly hostile rhetoric that so often dominates the debate over reproductive rights.

I like to say "Pro-Criminilization" and "Anti-Criminilization." We can both claim the "Pro-Life" label, we all want to see the number of abortions reduced, the question is, do you think the government needs to do it or are there other ways.

Is your family member strictly anti-abortion, or is she opposed to birth control, too? If she beieves in birth control but that once a "life" is created, that's it, you can point out how many in the "Pro-Life" crowd oppose access to measures that would prevent pregnancy in the first place, the kind that so often end tragically. And that the Democratic candidate wishes to reduce the number of abortions by focusing on the cause. If on the other hand, she is anti-birth control, it is harder.

If you are bold, and know she is tolerant and open, you can point out how the Republicans have used this abortion policy to divide the country, get people to vote for them and then claim a mandate for ALL of their policies, emphasizing the Republican policies she hates. Do it nicely, politely, but get that point across. If she votes Republican, regardless of the reason, they will take it as a vote of approval on the War, on regressive tax policies, on cuts in nutrition programs for children and babies, etc. Acknowledge that it isn't fair, but that's how Republicans will take it. Is abortion that important to her that she is willing to give them that vote of confidence?

Point out that Democrats are more open minded. Republicans after 12 years of power are drunk with it, and don't think they have to pay attention to anyone. If Democrats get back in control, they will be more open, at least at first, and maybe we can find some compromises on the issues that divide us. Republicans won't, especially if we keep returning them to power - they see no need to compromise or listen to voices of dissent.

Does she agree with the draconian laws in South Dakota, or think they went too far. We will see more of this if Republicans keep control.

Point out all the positive attributes about the Democratic gubernatorial candidate. You could also point out that the state legislature is unlikely to change *that* much, to downplay the importance of a governor's position on abortion.

Good luck.

[Epiphany4z]

32. there are other

ways to effect the number of abortions done. Making them illegal wont stop them ...You can vote for a pro choice person...while doing some thing to help say ....unwed mothers...donating time, baby items, books on health and baby care, working for places that help women who choose to keep there babies...jeeze just offer baby sitting services so a woman can finish school, or job training. I vote for people I do not agree on everything with. Remind her pro choice is not pro abortion. Most people want abortions to be rare...Nobody is out there cheer leading yeah!!! can't wait to get me one them thare abortions!!!

Do women choose abortion because they are Democrats? Nooooooooo they choose them for other reasons..often economic reason, or because they feel there is no place to go for help. you will never stop all abortions not even if they are illegal but you can always lend helping hand.

[Jed Dilligan]

33. Scripture

I can't do it but someone here probably can. I think there's plenty of scripture saying that human government is fundamentally corrupt and is not the instrument to bring about God's will.

Outlawing abortion doesn't stop abortion; it leads to illegal abortion. Ditto with drugs, gambling, etc.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. Talk about birth control

Point out that, to hold a consistent pro-life position, your goal ought to be "minimise number of abortions" rather than "ban abortions".

Point out that voting for Republicans on a federal level probably won't help much to establish legal restrictions on abortions unless another federal chief justice dies or retires, which doesn't look likely in the short term, (either Roe vs Wade will stand, and abortion will remain legal, or it won't, and it will go to the states).

Point out that statewide legal restrictions wouldn't actually reduce the number of abortions much - they would make it harder and more expensive and more traumatic to get one, but that wouldn't stop most people who want one.

Point out that what *will* reduce the number of abortions is effective sex education and widely-available birth control - something that Democrats consistently support and Republicans usually oppose.

So if she wants to reduce the number of abortions taking place per year (as opposed to making it harder to get one) then voting Democrat is the logical approach.

As always, the thing that will work is to concentrate on reducing the demand, not the supply.

[Onlooker]

36. Talk to her about health care and child care

The liberal way to fight abortion is to heavily promote contraception and make sure a pregnant woman and her child gets proper health care, that the mother has paid time off as necessary before and after the birth, that there are social services to help the mother, and if she chooses to give up the child, that the child is properly cared for. These steps would reduce the number of abortions, and are far more sensible and compassionate than the Republican way.

[devilgrrl]

37. Tell them that "antichoice" republicans have done NOTHING to stop abortion

eom

[petersjo02]

38. Couple issues I think about

1) How can one be "pro-life" and yet support the war in Iraq that has killed 10s of thousands of innocent people when the war itself is based on nothing but lies. Since when is it okay for the U.S. to start a war by agression and then occupy a country? It seems to me that the majority of elected officials who still strongly support this war and aren't working to end it are Republicans. Hypocrisy.

2) How can one be truly "pro-life" and still support the death penalty? GWBush, especially, really seemed to take great pleasure refusing appeals and sending people to their death? Life in prison without parole keeps the offender out of society forever, is cheaper than the death penalty, and does not perpetuate the violence. No one who claims to be Christian can truly be pro-life and still support the death penalty. Last time I checked, the 10 commandments, that evangelicals fight so hard to have posted in public places, still include "Thou shalt not kill." I see no exception in that statement that says "except state-sponsored killing." Seems to me that the majority of politicians who continue to support the death penalty, even in the face of evidence that innocent people have died by execution and that this penalty does not deter criminals from murdering people, are Republicans. Hypocrisy.

Good luck.

Edited to add another thought: If Republicans are really prolife in opposing abortion, why aren't they working harder to be sure that women of childbearing age have access to affordable birth control, including plan B? The hypocrisy as I see it is that these very people who want to end abortion also are working to eliminate access to birth control and programs to educate women about how to avoid unwanted pregnancy. How prolife is a message that devalues women to the status of mere baby incubators because a woman may have been raped, or her birth control failed (happened to me) or hormones got the best of her one night? No man or political party should be allowed to make decisions regarding such matters that affect my or any other woman's body.

[zalinda]

39. Pro-choice actually means keeping the

government out of your womb. If you give the government the rights to your womb then it can tell you that you must have a child, or that you can't have a child. It also can prosecute a woman who has a miscarriage for murder. A woman who smokes or drinks, or does anything that might be "considered" dangerous could end up in prison for life, if a district attorney would want to prosecute for endangerment.

zalinda

[gollygee]

40. If it's a religious thing

my sister is a born-again christian and a democrat. She says that the bible doesn't really talk much if at all about abortion, and talks very little about homosexuality, but talks a LOT about helping the poor, making sure the poor have food, shelter, medicine, etc.

SO as a fundamentalist christian she said the obvious choice is to vote for Democratic candidates. She even convinced her pastor to vote for Kerry over Bush last election with that argument. He gave a sermon about how being a christian doesn't mean being a republican.

[never_get_over_it]

42. Please stop referring to them as pro-life

they are not - maybe your family member is but the group as a whole IS NOT - for the most partn they support the invasion of Iraq, are pro death penalty - are most likely against social programs to help the poor that ultimately help the babies - how many of them have adopted an unwanted child

Call them pro-birth because that is all they give a shit about - or at least anti-choice.

I am SO SICK OF THIS BEING AN ISSUE...when there is so much wrong with this country....it is beyond laughable - that anyone would support these freaks that maintain they are pro-life when their policies have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people....

[alfredo]

43. If they were really against abortion, they would have made it

illegal a long time ago. Their real focus is the right to privacy. Roe Vs Wade affirmed the right to privacy. To get people excited about Roe Vs Wade, the authoritarian right pretended to be "pro life."

Since those early days they found that they can just privatize the theft of privacy to get around the implicit right to privacy. Roe Vs Wade became less important.

Now all pro life is to them is a way to energize their base.

Pro choice aims to reduce abortions without the coercive force of law. Education, birth control, and access to good health care works well to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

[Ravenseye]

45. Tell her why many people are pro-choice

Most people aren't pro-choice because we think it should be used as a form of birth control. I don't know anyone who doesn't think abortions shouldn't be rare...too....many...negatives...

You know what I mean though.

Does she think that a doctor should let a pregnant woman die from complications rather than abort a baby, if that's the woman's wish? Does she think that a woman should be forced to carry to term an anencephalic baby who she knows will die within hours or at most days after birth? Does she think that a 15 year old girl should be forced to carry to term a child concieved by her rape? What if the rape was by a relative or even her father?

These things are horrific, yet they happen. Most "pro-life" candidates wouldn't allow abortions in any of those cases. That's one reason many people are pro-choice or ok with pro-choice candidates. It's about protecting those people.

Also you can approach it from the privacy angle. Anti-abortion laws essentially are forcing the government into the room with your doctor and you. Laws establishing that could be used to let the government become fully cognizant of all of your health data. If your family member has any desire for privacy and keeping the government out of her life, that's another way to approach it.

Lastly, I'd hit her up with the fact that laws have never prevented abortions. People will get back alley abortions like before, or have their boyfriend hit them repeatedly in the stomach with a baseball bat, or overdose, or do other things which will hurt people worse than any abortion statistics we currently have.

If she's concerned about needless abortions, then she should be pro-choice but work towards effective sex eduction (ie non-abstinence education) to prevent pregnancies in the first place. She should also help support adoption initiatives.

She just shouldn't vote based on abortion as it'll just make things worse if she gets what she 'wants'.