So many ultimatums to Democrats, so little time allowed for change.

[madfloridian]

So little honest quoting of what one or the other really said. So much pouncing on the skewed version put out by the press of what one or the other said.

Just the last few days...to paraphrase...here are the demands being made, and these are only a few.

They must filibuster. Opposing is not enough. While I agree it would be nice....I realize it might not happen.

They must come out in public and support Al Gore's speech...when we know they do.

They must impeach. Only they can't impeach. And if you impeach you get Cheney.

They must do primal screams. Well, we all know what happened to a good Democrat who did try that.

They can not under any circumstances say anything in a nice way. I saw Obama and Kerry today and thought they were great. I come here feeling good...and bam they are either being ignored or bashed.

They are to withstand even the toughest questioning on TV and give every answer with the right intonation.

They must never act like terrorism really exists, or speak to our country's needs first over other countries.

They must raise more money. And that must be done even though those who support candidates in 08 and those who want perfection before donating are withholding donations....and they make up over half of DU.

They should walk out of the state of the union. Good idea, but still that won't be enough.

There won't be enough ever. I was really into going after them for a while. Then I realized it was getting overboard. I will criticize the ones on either side who try to pull us to the extremes, but other than that I am on board with our Democrats. I have been proud of how they are speaking out more lately.

There is a time to come together within reason, and make demands within reason. I am making this my time to do that. As I do it I am getting pummeled at other forums, but something surprising is happening.

People like me who were wavering in the netherworld between moderate and very left....are sending me supportive messages. It is a beginning.

[rockymountaindem]

1. K&R

n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

2. Superb post

Recommended. Did you see Kerry's diary on DKos? It was a very positive development and I was glad to see it. Most of the kossacks were honored of the opportunity to share their concerns with a Democratic leader, and he was honored to listen to the voices of the grassroots. This is what we can accomplish if we work together. :)

I am sorry we haven't seen eye to eye in the past, and I hope you understand this post is genuine. You said very well what I have been feeling.

[madfloridian]

3. Thank you.

It is time now to start a movement of getting together.

[WildEyedLiberal]

18. I agree

I support ALL our good, brave Dems who are fighting the Bush regime. I support John Kerry and Howard Dean and Barbara Boxer and John Conyers and Harry Reid and Al Gore and the many other brave souls who put themselves out there every day against the GOP gauntlet to fight for us.

It's time to work together and fix this country. :hug:

[sandnsea]

4. Lacing up my ice skates n/t

[madfloridian]

8. Hell hath frozen.

:7

[WildEyedLiberal]

24. I never thought I'd see the day

But I am happy. I really do want to work with you and every other Democrat who wants our party to succeed. I hope we can move forward from here in unity and support all our brave Dems who fight. :D God knows they need the support.

[cry baby]

5. You make logic sound almost....logical.

I'm with you - our dems are getting better - I think they are hearing our cries.

[madfloridian]

10. They are reading and listening.

And we need to be there for them when they do.

[leftstreet]

6. What reasonable demands would you make?

[madfloridian]

9. Reasonable. Within reason. Within capability.

Within the realm of possibility.

That said, please don't start anything negative. Just for once I would like to have a positive thread. Someone very thoughtfully said tonight here that people come here to dirty this board and keep their own forums pure.

I tend to agree.

[leftstreet]

11. Nothing negative. Just wondered what you'd like to see happen.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

Change from top down to bottom up control for one.

We are working on that. Change in being more honest and open with the people of the party...that is happening as well.

Good things take time.

[leftstreet]

15. More open and honest would be a great start.

Imagine that.

[leftstreet]

7. Dupe

[w13rd0]

12. 20 second attention span...

...we've been bred for it.

Although improvements in technology have made it easier to engineer, execute and grow social change, the "opposition" has just as much or more access to these same tools. That might be why we are so prone to frustration. The friction between these social movements, the drive to push society in this direction or that direction, are becoming quicker and wider. The points of contact seem to be what the media focuses on (controversy-obsessed mainstream media). It's like expanding soap bubbles. And as the bubbles intersect, their combinations become increasingly complex. Many bubbles get wholly sublimated into massive, rapidly expanding bubbles. Groupthink takes over in many populations because it's easier than processing all of the information that has become available.

What may be required is a vast piercing needle, that can skewer thru the cluster fuck.

I'm with you. I've become increasingly disenchanted with those that seem to thrive on the points of conflict, more so than the means of accomplishment. There's so much to overcome, and it seems that everyone wants it all to happen today, because they aren't 100% that they'll be able to remember tomorrow, or make it there.

[bvar22]

13. Why can't everyone else....

...UNITE behind me and MY candidate?
Its only reasonable.
We need unity,
and my candidate is obviously better than your candidate.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[autorank]

14. Get the messages...excellent. Time for DEMS to be DEMS

Oops, well time for them to get their asses in gear and oppose this hideous excuse for a judge.

Feinstein, Landrieu, the Nelson twins....they're Democrats for sure but not Democrats I'd be proud to have representing me. In fact, I'd be pretty embarassed.

It's getting old. We've had five years of corruption and national disgrace. What part of that have these socalled "moderate" Democrats missed.

Soon, 39 or so real Democrats will vote against Alito. If there were two more, he'd be stopped. How about that.

If not now, when?

[madfloridian]

16. Then we work to change it, not destroy it.

There isn't anything else out there waiting for us. A bunch of angry folks who don't want Democrats, but who have nothing to offer are not the answer.

[autorank]

17. Winning is the answer. Leaders ask like we're their "servants".

First we correct that, they work for us. We don't have to kiss them on the cheeck and bow before them. They need to do their job.

Second, we take over the party. It's full of insiders who are, well, very good at being insiders.

Then we get real candidates.

Parallel to that, it's time to make the party stop giving away our votes and fight for election integrity. This is such a stunning oversight on the part of "the elders."

Don't they remember how WILDLY AND UNIVERSALLY POPULAR THE VOTING RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS.

The only opponents to that were racists. Who would opposet it today?

A miniority.

They need to speak up and fight, then a vast marjority of people (even those angry at parties) would vote for thlem.

[madfloridian]

19. Some of us ARE trying to take it over and change it.

But people who are not Democrats anyway are making that hard.

They are beginning to fight back, but it seems here that people just demand and demand and never acknowledge when they do something right.

[autorank]

21. Well, people who are not Democrats can't stop you from taking the party ..

back. That's kind of hard to understand. Nobody in the party listens to them.

Now, as to your question, what does our party do right. A lot of things but on the BIG ISSUES, Iraq, the surrender of the Constitution, the Patriot Act, the destruction of the environment, the appointment of judges who hat the American Constitution, etc. etc., real hard core issues, they either fail or do nothing. That's why people here are mad and why people among the masses, our voting block, don't even bother to vote. We don't earn their votes, we can't even get them to think we'd fight for ourselves. They laugh at us often, as weak and timid. I'm ready for change. I'm ready for a party like the one Franklin Deleno Roosevelt ran. Heck, I'd take a Teddy Roosevelt party (he would be one of us today, don't you think?).

[madfloridian]

22. I am mad, also. I just intend to work within to change it.

As to how those who are Democrats can stop us from change? Think about it. Think about all the people who use this forum to advocate not supporting the party. You don't think that makes a difference?

I do.

[autorank]

23. No, they wouldn't support it anyway. I work for people in our party

and I don't demand complete agreement with me before I volunteer. Others have a different point of view. It's the party's duty to reach out the the 50% of the people who don't vote. We got close in 2004, many more voters came out, 65% I think. Kerry was fighting Bush. I believe he won, btw. Now our "fighters" have disappeared and it makes people very angry, probably many who actually worked for someone who fought Bush.

When I go to party meetings I mention how angry people are about things and it is well received. Try it and don't worry about those who are angry. Just look at then as future Democrats;)

[madfloridian]

20. I heard Durbin said 41 or 45.

Did I hear wrong?

I am sorry we seem to disagree on this. I just hope this thread stays positive.

[seabeyond]

25. perfectly said madfloridian. i have literally watched the most amazing

bashing. they must walk out of soua. not that they will the pussy.... spineless, do nothings.... after a week of the dems kicking ass. two days of setting our democrat leaders up for failure and insulting them before they even know there is an expectation out of them.

makes it hard to be a non dem supporting dems because i want bushco out. i have to think this board must not be indicative of the real world

appreciate your post

recommended

[DanCa]

26. You know its like there danged if they do darned if they dont.

I wouldn't blame them one bit for just giving up. What gets me is that so many people blame the dems for what is going on in the country and they didn't even vote for Senator Kerry. It's not right ... just not right.

[OzarkDem]

27. They must stop apologizing to R's when they expose their corruption

Sorry, but Harry Reid's ridiculous and unwarranted apology for pointing out Repub Senators corruptions was too much to take.

[ComerPerro]

28. Thank you for this post

[ProSense]

29. It's symptomatic of two syndromes:

the "you suck...please save me" syndrome working in tandem with the "you suck...why can't someone appear out of thin air and save me" syndrome.

I say if the Democrats aren't good enough for these people, there are alternatives, just stop dumping on the party that's working their butts off to counter the Republican agenda.

The Democrats do something good (all year starting with killing Bush's SS scheme) and it's never good enough; it's always "good start, but not good enough." They speak out, and it's always "well they should do that more often."

But in truth, these people are just naysayers; otherwise they would spend more time building up a leader (of their choice) than dumping on the party in general. In fact, who are the leaders that they think are better than the Democratic leaders?



edited for typos

[G_j]

30. I have a problem with terms like "extremes" and " within reason"

because the situation is so extreme and beyond reason right now.

For example, working "within reason" we have been cursed with the approval of people like Ashecroft and Gonzales, the most extreme and dangerous folks one could possibly imagine. Now we are saddled with these types of people which just cements the situation even further, making change even more difficult. SCOTUS appointments work to do the same.
The "reasonable" approach has made it that much HARDER to turn things around.

[madfloridian]

33. I have a problem with "extreme." I believe in "reasonable."

There has not been a lot of "reasonable" around here lately. There have been demands beyond the capability of a party out of power.

There have been calls to withhold support from the party struggling to change to become the party that belongs to the people.

People get upset over skewed newspaper articles. One example, is the Fightin Dem Patrick Murphy. A reporter had a 10 or more minute interview with him on Iraq and getting out of there. Just think, he took 10 minutes of his time. The newspaper used one sentence.

I know that because I took time to call his campaign. I heard back personally from him with an offer to call me. It was very gracious.

We disagree on Iraq most likely, but he was so badly skewed in the quoting. There is too much attacking and not enough supporting. There is not enough taking time to find out the facts.

I believe in fighting back, but some of the stuff going on here is overwrought.

[MoonRiver]

36. But what you don't seem to understand, is that we are saying

the (Dem) Party is out of power BECAUSE of it's milk toast "reasonable" accommodations to this dangerous administration. In return for our sensible and reasonable behavior, we have received cutthroat Repuke attacks, which ignore our "reasonableness", and instead, accuse us of partisan power plays when we dare to even whisper dissent against their fascist terror tactics. But because we are so "reasonable" we rarely retaliate in kind, much less attempt to set the record straight regarding what we really said and did. "Reasonable" within the current political environment just causes us to lose, and is destroying the country.

All my life, until 5 years ago, I have been a moderate Democrat. I no longer call myself that because I believe this country needs real progressive activists. We need fire and brimstone Democratic leaders who demand that American citizens be treated fairly and who defend the Constitution. "Reasonable" just doesn't cut it anymore, imho.

[madfloridian]

37. Then you don't understand what I am saying.

There is a difference between activists who work to change things for the betterment of the party and those who don't want a party at all.

Most of us here read and post at many forums. Some alarm me in the utter naivete exhibited. They are actually calling for anarchy, a system of nothingness, rather than trying to work to fix what we have.

You don't seem to understand what I am saying. I am flat out saying that a lot of people here are trying to hurt the Democratic Party by spreading misinfo and urging lack of support.

It would be nice to have a thread that does not become ugly.

[MoonRiver]

38. Well, I can tell you that I am not one who is trying to hurt the Dem Party

But I do know that the old policy of "reasonableness" has gotten us nowhere and endangered the welfare of our country. I'm not trying to be ugly, just realistic here.

[yurbud]

48. I agree. I was galvanized after 9/11 and was shocked to see I had no one

representing my interests, or saying what was plainly true about what was going on.

That reasonable tack arguably was appropriate for Clinton in the 90s, but today we need a blunter approach, throwing down the gauntlet to the right.

One way of doing this would be to put Dick Cheney's name on any anti-corruption bill so the GOP would be on the defensive about why it shouldn't be there.

We could also put some daylight between the Dems and GOP on trade agreements and probably reel back in some rust belt Reagan Democrats--but of course that would piss off the corporate suits, so we can't do that.

[G_j]

47. nothing unreasonable about demanding a filibuster

or that leaders use the word "impeach" (& most citizen impeachment efforts include Cheney)

I offer a quote from Martin Luther King:

"We are now faced with the fact, my friends, that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history, there is such a thing as being too late. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Life often leaves us standing bare, naked, and dejected with a lost opportunity. The tide in the affairs of men does not remain at flood -- it ebbs. We may cry out desperately for time to pause in her passage, but time is adamant to every plea and rushes on. Over the bleached bones and jumbled residues of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic words, "Too late." There is an invisible book of life that faithfully records our vigilance or our neglect. Omar Khayyam is right: "The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on."

[MoonRiver]

50. Wow! Beautiful quotation!

Truth is timeless. I just pray we heed MLK's advice.

[G_j]

52. Link:

it is from MLK's "Beyond Vietnam" speech, you can listen to, or read it here: (highly recommended!)

BEYOND VIETNAM
April 4, 1967, Riverside Church, NYC

ttp://www.aavw.org/special_features/speeches_speech_king01.html

[madfloridian]

51. You are distorting what I posted. Please read it again.

I think you probably just glanced. I did not disapprove of those things.

When you start arguing, be sure you have read the post.

[G_j]

53. I read it

here are the two issues I responded to:

"They must filibuster. Opposing is not enough. While I agree it would be nice....I realize it might not happen."

-demanding a filibuster is not unreasonable


"They must impeach. Only they can't impeach. And if you impeach you get Cheney."

-they certainly can strongly express that impeachment is in order, even it doesn't happen.

[madfloridian]

54. You misread it.

Read it again, please. Please quit misinterpreting what I said. You put all kinds of connotations into your remarks that I did not say or imply.

[G_j]

56. then maybe you could be more clear

you state: "There is a time to come together within reason, and make demands within reason." and offer examples, two of which I responded to. The implication seemed to be that the examples you gave were not within reason.
I am not trying to misrepresent you, perhaps you didn't represent yourself as well as you could have.

[madfloridian]

57. I have been very clear.

You choose not to understand. I am not going to argue anymore when I posted nothing ugly or divisive.

[G_j]

59. and neither have I

.. said anything ugly.

I took the the time to reread your post three times and respectfully conveyed what I thought about it.

Is this arguing? I don't know. When you post something you can expect people to discuss it and maybe possibly disagree.
I haven't been disrespectful and I have no agenda to misinterpret your words.
:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. It's time to end "politics as usual" and speak out.

Politicians don't lead. They follow. The call for the "extremists" to shut up is as old as the Tories telling Sam Adams to shut up.

The politicians (allegedly) work for us. We (allegedly) tell them what to do. It's called democracy.

[ProSense]

34. There is a difference between speaking out

and shouting at what one considers a brick wall. Frankly, some of the criticism are not calls for change, they are just screams of disgust. Can a person who has tremendous support and truly believes he/she is doing the right thing, be inspired to change because others are hurling insults (not constructive criticism) his/her way? Wouldn't it be more productive to find leaders/followers who share a similar perspective and speak out to them, work on getting them in a position to impact change?

Bush is a good example, it's one thing to insult him, it's another thing to point out his mistakes and offer solutions in the hopes that others will come to share these perspectives, and another thing entirely to support those who aim to change the equation so that Bush can no longer continue pursuing failed policies; that means changing the equation in Congress. If only the first action is undertaken (hurling insults), then that's not speaking out in the name of democracy; that's screaming at a brick wall.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. The guys in 1776 ran into that problem.

They tried "reason" and "solutions" - didn't work well. The brick wall didn't crumble.

It's the system itself that I'm disgusted with and want to change. Throwing marshmallows at a brick wall has zero effect. The Dems supposedly represent us. So far, their "solutions" have been watered down to "not as bad" CYA responses to pressure from the left. Which is perfectly understandable from their point of view that risking their precious seats by pissing off the bosses that finance them is "unreasonable". So, we are stuck with the likes of Dumbya and a timid set of politicians more worried about their place at the trough than actually opposing him forcefully.

Or, as another "shouter" once put it:

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country.."

[madfloridian]

55. Well, the extremists on the right will win this time....

if we don't work together on this.

[LoZoccolo]

32. People who graze on the Internet...

...(and I make a distinction between them and those who use the Internet), and don't get involved, probably are more likely to sit around making demands of other people as a means of "activism", while lacking the sort of involvement which would give them a realistic perspective.

Good call. :thumbsup:

[yurbud]

45. part of being realistic is getting pols to say and do things that will

rally the troops and give others a sense of what our core values are so they will want to join.

Dems aren't getting a fair shake from the press, but in debates and campaign commercials, where they have their chance to deliver their message unfiltered and unedited, many err on the side of being inoffensive and bland, which may not piss anyone off, but it sure as hell won't make them get out of bed and go vote.

Cracking down on the culture of corruption is a successful theme, they need to repeat it ad nauseum and build on that success.

Even if Dems were saying the right things on many issues and being ignored by the press, their votes during the Bush years show they sided with them on many of the issues that mattered most.

[onenote]

35. thumbs up

thanks

onenote

[blm]

39. Welcome to the left where we work TOWARDS our goals and not AGAINST them.

madfloridian, this is one of your best unifying posts to date. Glad to be in the trenches WITH YOU.

Salute.

Now, if we can get the Carville gang to stop the dividing, too, we'll be in a much more unified position as a party.

[madfloridian]

40. Did you notice the name of the Carville/Begala book?

Wonder where they got it? They need to get off the stage, those two.

[AZBlue]

41. Excellent post! K&R

[yurbud]

42. problem with terrorism is honesty about causes

If you want to kill every member of al Qaeda, go ahead.

If you want to bomb the two countries that gave them the most support, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, be my guest.

But at the same time, you have to be honest about the causes that make it possible for groups like that to recruit. The biggest cause is our support of dictators that sell out their own people to our oil companies and our overthrowing democratic governments when they don't bow low enough or grovel loudly enough.

It is painful to say that because I would prefer to believe that we have been spreading democracy around the world since WWII, but it is simply not true.

Terrorism is being used as an excuse to do things that will create more terrorism.

The British ambassador to Uzbekistan said it bluntly:

the wellspring of the whole policy {war on terror} of the United States was the ruthless pursuit of sectional oil and gas interests

http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/2006/01/riveting-brit-ambassador-to-our-ally.html

[yurbud]

43. when they do something worth cheerleading, I'll put on my skirt and

wave the pom poms.

We can't wait for them to do the right thing though. They have dropped the ball too many times, or worse, passed it to the other side.

[madfloridian]

44. Maybe you are just not paying attention.

.

[yurbud]

46. please give us a list of things Dems in Congress have done as a group

in the last five years that we should be proud of--and don't include guys like Conyers or Murtha who go out on a limb and are usually disavowed by the party leadership and left twisting in the wind alone.

[madfloridian]

49. yurbud....please don't turn this into something ugly.

I did not write it as such, and I did not attack anyone.

[yurbud]

61. I didn't mean that to be ugly--actually I was looking for hope

I would prefer that you were right and we just have to wait and see what happens, but I need some actual evidence of collective will and action on the part of congressional democrats, not the mavericks going out on a limb.

It may be that's part of a strategy to rotate those who draw fire and get ideas into circulation without giving the GOP cause to see it as a concerted effort or have one leader to draw a bead on, but that is the most optimistic interpretation, and trying to force a pattern and design on what is probably the ad hoc intermittent effort it appears to be.

[yurbud]

62. failing to provide the evidence to back up your optimism is ugly.

[madfloridian]

63. You are turning this into something it wasn't.

I set forth opinions. I have no intention of trying to continue to convince you of anything.

I intend to work with our Democratic Party. What do you offer? What group do you have that is capable of working to change things?

What do you offer me except anger and frustration? I have that also, but I think helping to fix the party is the best way.

[yurbud]

70. you set forth a list of complaints others have made and a call for support

for Dems. I am simply asking for actions that give us cause for optimism.

Otherwise, this looks like another one of those DLC blind cheerleading posts.

I do not support Democrats because I like words that start with D or donkeys, or think the Kennedy White House was Camelot reborn. I support them when they support ideas that benefit the broad middle class and working class who don't have a voice in our system.

Tell me what the Democratic leadership is doing on those issues of war and peace, trade agreements, health care, and getting jobs that will support a family.

It is not insulting in any way to ask that.

And if you can't give that, you are no better than the GOP shills.

[madfloridian]

73. You just called me a GOP shill and a DLC cheerleader. Unbelievable.

I have a history here at DU of using the words of the DLC against them. I have been one of their major opponents.

It is so easy for you to call me a GOP shill. All you have to do is say the words, you don't have to back them up at all.

All the things you ask for are all over the board today.

Now I can add another to the list of names I have been called this week for trying to defend the party.

1. Good German (that was truly painful and undeserved)

2. GOP shill

3. DLC cheerleader

There were others since I have tried to point out that many on the left were using this board to hurt the party and not work within it. I guess I will be called a Republican next. You think?

What do you offer in place of the party?

[yurbud]

79. "as bad as GOP shill" If you have made the points elsewhere, why is it

so hard to list a couple here?

I want to agree with you, but not blindly.

[seaglass]

58. Great post MF.

Maybe some will remember 2 short months ago when Harry Reid was a hero for shutting down the Senate - now he's a coward for apologizing for the memo.

Well, which is it - hero or coward?

I just can't see the world like that.

[shance]

64. Good intentions are not enough in crisis times Floridian.....

Do you happen to remember where good intentions lead?

Nobody more than I do wants to be supportive of our leaders. I have been extremely supportive financially, emotionally and in any capacity our leaders have asked for. We continue to hear the words and actions continue to be absent.

Words are not enough. Words have never been enough. Thats the reality of life.

There are certainly those like Conyers and Kennedy who have put themselves out there on the line. Where are the other Democratic leaders to support their courageous actions?

They are conspicuously absent or on the sidelines.

How much support are those who are ignoring the need for an Alito filibuster giving this country and their constituents?

If Alito is appointed, do you fully understand what that means for ALL Americans?

Do you have any idea what that will mean for our power as individuals, for our power as property owners, for our power when we become ill, for our power as students, as the elderly, as those facing bankruptcy, as those trying to keep their property in New Orleans, for the wildlife whose refuge is being threatened and extinguished every day? Of course I haven't even gotten to the subject of perpetual war.

There will be NO change Floridian, except negative change until our leaders say no to the extremism that is ruining our country in every sacred way imaginable.

I believe many Americans are stepping up to the plate. As far as leadership goes, there are far too many leaders talking the talk but they are not walking. They continue to ask us for money and yet they are not standing up to the most unqualified candidate we have seen since Bork, (or Thomas).

Due to their lack of leadership, they continue to make us more and more vulnerable to the powers that be. They even are making themselves more vulnerable.

Is it too much to ask that our leaders protect our country from fascism? Have you noticed the direction we have taken in the past five years? What positive change have you witnessed? Our environment and planet are being further plundered and pillaged and that's just for starters.

Good intentions are paving a platinum road to hell.

When there is no opposition against a steamrolling faction, there will be nothing but pain and suffering for everyone who is a recipient of such neglect and abuse.

Right now, there is little if any opposition or leadership coming from Washington. How much longer do we wait?

Until its too late? Because of such a lack of opposition by our leaders, one wonders if it may already be too late.

[madfloridian]

66. I do fight. What do you offer in place of the Democratic Party?

I keep asking people that, but they don't have anything to offer but anger. I have anger, but I am using it to do what I can to fix it.

There is no other organization. If we don't vote for them in the general election....we have nothing. The GOP gets it back.

What do you offer? What structure? What organization?

[shance]

69. What Democratic party Floridian? Im still looking for it.

And I'm a person who has been very active in the party. We need some vital opposition and we need it now.

Wheres the opposition? Right now, we have essentially a one party system.

Of course there are certainly a few good (or great) Democratic leaders, however they cannot do it alone in Washington. The Democrats have the public's support, they even have support from Americans who are Republican. Perhaps we will be pleasantly surprised with the Alito nomination, and one can only pray they will do the right thing over something so blatantly obvious like the Supreme Court nomination.

However, the silence is louder than the necessary outcry of what needs to be happening to oppose the policies and the abuse by this Administration.

To me, that is the reality and what I continue to observe. Yes, change takes time. Change also takes courage and the willingness to do what is right despite our fears.

[madfloridian]

74. Did you just say "what Democratic party?"

I find it hard to believe that.

Are you aware that even if they filibuster, Alito still goes through?

I do support a filibuster.

[madfloridian]

68. I support a filibuster. Where did you see I did not?

But I am not going to leave the party if they don't. Sorry, but I am not.

[Dr Fate]

65. Yes, it appears that we are out of step with Congress. n/t

n/t

[madfloridian]

67. Cryptic. It's late, I'm not very sharp tonight.

Not sure I get your meaning.

[Dr Fate]

71. We tell our DEMs in congress what to do, not the other way around.

Your post reads as if the problem is with an unreasonable base rather than those in power who could do somthing.

I don think too many of us are asking for all those absolutes the way you present them.

[yurbud]

72. Point by point on your list

They must filibuster. Opposing is not enough. While I agree it would be nice....I realize it might not happen.

Realizing it might not happen is not the same as accepting that lack of action from our elected representatives.

Opposing is at least an improvement though. If the Democrats did a party line vote, I would give them at least a B- on the Alito nomination.

They must come out in public and support Al Gore's speech...when we know they do.

We don't know that at all and in fact it's likely that some don't, ironically especially Gore's old running mate, Joe Lieberman.

A fatal flaw of Democrats compared to Republicans is a failure to state the obvious. They fail to state the core values and main points and skip right to the minutia, or worse, just mouth platitudes and hope we'll stop paying attention.

It would be enough if a congressman or senator said Al is right. They don't even have to repeat what he said, just acknowledge that it's true.

You have to speak like your audience just got off the boat from Mars.

The GOP hits their core economic points so often, I've got them memorized even though I don't agree with them:

• cut taxes (on wealthy and corporations)
  
  
• privatize everything
  
  
• deregulate everything
  
  
• spend more on defense then go kill people and steal their shit.
  
  I could not as easily summarize the Democratic economic platform, and Dems need to not only boil it down to points that simple but actually pursue those as policy goals, so the public knows what they will get when they vote for a Democrat.
  
  If you have clearly stated goals and pursue them, it's going to be harder for the media to distort who you are and what you are doing, and if you stand for nothing, you are a blank canvas for them to draw their caricatures on.
  
  
  They must impeach. Only they can't impeach. And if you impeach you get Cheney.
  
  
  On impeachment, we realize it can't be done right now, but why should that stop the Democrats from saying the president has committed offenses that rise to the level of impeachment?
  
  Will the GOP Congress do it? No. But if the Democrats say it, the public agrees (which they do) and the GOP doesn't do it, they look like the rubberstamping stepford wives that they are, and will get all the more of a drubbing at the polls as a result.
  
  Also, many of us are noticing that Democrats are waiting for the "right time" to have a position on issues like the war or impeachment, meaning when the polls are aligned or they are pretty sure Bush won't retaliate. That approach rightly earns nothing but contempt here while those who stick out their necks, especially on a regular basis like John Conyers, earn our respect.
  
  I don't even know if Conyers is otherwise liberal or moderate, but he says what the rest of us are thinking and asks the right questions while supposed leaders like Hillary are aping the GOP talking points.
  
  
  They must do primal screams. Well, we all know what happened to a good Democrat who did try that.
  
  
  Who is asking for a scream? We just want our elected officials to tell the truth and not apologize when the GOP bitches about it.
  
  Also, if fear of media bashing you paralyzes you and keeps you from acting, you've lost before you started.
  
  
  They can not under any circumstances say anything in a nice way. I saw Obama and Kerry today and thought they were great. I come here feeling good...and bam they are either being ignored or bashed.
  
  They are to withstand even the toughest questioning on TV and give every answer with the right intonation.
  
  
  They can say "Thanks for having me on the show" nicely, and they can smile and laugh when they talk as long as they don't back up Bush's lies or apologize after they inadvertently tell the truth themselves.
  
  I read transcripts of that Kerry appearance and was impressed. It would be nice if he could consistently be that tough and clear. I have a suspicion that Kerry's intentions are good and that he is doing the right things behind the scenes, but hope is not the same thing as evidence.
  
  
  
  
  They must never act like terrorism really exists, or speak to our country's needs first over other countries.
  
  
  What's ironic about the way you put that is putting ourselves first causes terrorism. But of course we aren't putting America first, we are putting corporate interests like big oil first, and not only screwing people in other countries, but screwing people in our own country as well.
  
  Part of fighting terrorism must be making it harder for terrorist groups to recruit by giving the Middle East back to the people who live there, and not by killing half of them.
  
  Terrorism is being used as an excuse to steal. You know that because you are smart enough to put a sentence together. If enough Democrats say it loud enough, the public will eventually get it, just as they eventually got that the war was based on lies and Bush's social security reform was neither security nor reform, and was actually anti-social.
  
  When Dems try to sound tough by aping the GOP talking points on terrorism as the Joes (Lieberman and Biden) do, it has the opposite effect: the sound like feckless, triangulating cowards trying to skim off some retarded voters from the GOP (or simply trying to avoid a beating from the republican thugs running things).
  
  
  
  They must raise more money. And that must be done even though those who support candidates in 08 and those who want perfection before donating are withholding donations....and they make up over half of DU.
  
  
  Perfection? No. But opposing wars and tax cuts that benefit a very few at the expense of the rest of us up to and including the cost of our lives? Yes.
  
  If a Democrat can't clearly stand for at least that much, they stand for nothing and never will except replacing Tom Delay at the corporate trough.
  
  I don't know who is saying they should raise more money--I'm not. I'd rather have public financing or barring that, as much as possible from small donations so are candidates aren't beholden to any big money interests if elected.
  
  
  They should walk out of the state of the union. Good idea, but still that won't be enough.
  
  
  I would applaud them if they did, but for the second half, what exactly should we do, go to sleep after they do one thing right?
  
  Decades of growing inattention and apathy brought us the Bush administration. It is unlikely that inattention would have a better effect on the Democrats.

[madfloridian]

75. What do you offer in the place of the Democratic Party? Rhetoric?

That is what I want to know. What structure, what organization do you present that has a hope of countering the GOP machine?

[yurbud]

76. Since you started thread, I'm still waiting for you to provide ANY IDEAS

that they have stood up for as a group.

I'm disturbed that you are following the DLC line that structure, organization, and corporate money is all that matters and you act like I'm stabbing you with a hot poker when I ask for the ideas they have stood for and therefore will stand for in the future.

Incidentally since you started this, the committee voted on Alito along party lines which is at least an improvement, and I give them credit for that.

[yurbud]

77. I want a party that acts like they believe your signature line

"when you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[KoKo]

78. It's the DINO Dems. That's the issue with many of us.

They run things here in my state and they are in bed with the Repugs. They are rubber stamps and don't listen to the people trying to infuse new life in the party. People who don't see the Democratic Party as Repug lite.

We just had a very bad day here with Election Reform...and we aren't getting the Democratic support we need. People have given up tremendous hours of volunteer time to go to meetings and push to keep the DRE Machines out, we got a bill....the bill is going to be gutted, the DRE Machines will be in...and all that time and effort and money we spent out of our pockets had little or no support from our State Dems. Only a few were willing to stand up and even they had to do it "softly."

National Dem party refuses to call attention to the Voting fraud. Perhaps afraid that people wont turn out a the polls if they know their vote doesn't count. Yet...if they turn out and their vote still doesn't count what does that do?

Only John Conyers and the Black Caucus has supported us. Where are the rest?

[madfloridian]

80. I just realized that I had been called a DLC apologist 3 times today.

Or similar words. That is just so funny to me since I have written many posts about them, using their own words to criticize them. I have been said to be a few choice other things as well...so I guess there is a risk now in defending the Democratic Party here now.

I will just go figure the irony of that one.

Anyway, here are a few of the ones I posted, very fair, not attacking, using their own tactics. Yet today I am called a good German, and a DC shrill.

Third Way and New Republic.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2010996

Third Way (they are making a move this week with a whole new website.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2007203

The DLC is trying to set the DNC agenda, pushing us out of the way.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1975621

Just thought it was interesting how things are changing. Me...from moderate to lefty and back to moderate since 2002. Because the others are only offering things like "fuck the Democrats" "kick their asses out", and things like that.

I have been a big fighter here, so this is so strange today.