Why do freepers complain about school busses not being used for Katrina?

[JohnnyCougar]

They blame the lack of evacuation on Mayor Nagin for not using that lot of school busses to evacuate. Wasn't there a debunking of that talking point somewhere? Why are FReepers so naive?

[bluestateguy]

1. The buses could have gotten out at most 13,000 people

I do think it is a legitimate criticism, just out of proportion to how important the Freepers made it. In other words, you still would have been left with 85,000 stuck in New Orleans.

[Selatius]

17. I believe it is a somewhat legitimate criticism of Nagin

I don't know why a bussing schedule was not put in place in the event of a Cat 5 storm about to hit land. They knew for years that those levees would not hold beyond a Cat 3 storm, and somebody should have known that not everybody was wealthy enough or even physically able to get evacuate under their own power. It was a failure on several levels of government that ultimately doomed so many innocent people to die, and it's a shame given that this nation's government can do far better than it has done.

[ComerPerro]

21. Yeah, he definately screwed up. But the thing that burns me most

is the fact that Bush pretty much said, "It's not my job, not my problem", and stayed on vacation.

And freepers are ok with this?

[jobycom]

2. They are desparately trying to live on the Nile. nt.

[LiberalAndProud]

3. Because Rush Limbaugh (among others) said so, I imagine.

[LiberalAndProud]

9. Randi Rhode's response to that meme (Sean Hannity)

Submitted by Randi Rhodes on Wed, 2005-09-21 16:57.
Good morning, campers.

So Sean Hannity lied – again. As usual, he was trying to blame everything from Hurricane Katrina on local officials instead of holding his ultra-rightwing federal government accountable for anything. And he said “You would have thought that the 2,000 buses, school buses, that sat in the yards would have been used to help those people that were incapable of getting out on their own, but none of that had happened locally.”

First of all, a small thing: the New Orleans Times-Picayune says the entire school district only had 324 buses. He was only off by 1,676 – unless you figure in the 70 buses that are broken, in which case he’s only off by 1,746. Then again, it’s common sense. There are only around 55,200 school-age kids in the whole Orleans Parish. Your average school bus holds maybe 70, but 2,000 buses means one bus for every 27 kids. And most of them apparently don’t even need a ride to school anyway.

But that lie ignores an even bigger truth: Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said the state WANTED to use school buses, and FEMA turned them down. They insisted on using their own buses – then didn’t get them out there on time.


-more-
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/blogs/randi

[carpetbagger]

4. Because they think buses of black folks would be welcomed.

I guess their history books miss a few chapters.

[leftstreet]

5. Seeing our "government" fail "us" brings out the worst in them.

Pointing their fingers and looking for micro-blame helps soothe the fear that it could happen to them.

[Lasher]

6. There were fewer than 300 working school buses

CLAIM — MAYOR NAGIN LEFT 2,000 SCHOOL BUSES BEHIND IN THE FLOOD: Sean Hannity said, "You would have thought that the 2,000 buses, school buses, that sat in the yards would have been used to help those people that were incapable of getting out on their own, but none of that had happened locally."

FACT — NEW ORLEANS HAD LESS THAN 300 WORKING SCHOOL BUSES: "The district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down."

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/13/katrina-myths-debunked/

On edit: Here is a Snopes writeup http://www.snopes.com/katrina/photos/buses.asp

[sam sarrha]

10. there were about 224 busses and and only about 175 running.. lots were small

busses, there weren't enough drivers, they just had a opportunity to spin shit into propaganda gold.. they have nothing to say good for themselves so they can only lie and fabricate falsehoods

[Skittles]

7. because it is their sad attempt to shift focus of camality George

truly sickening

[AtomicKitten]

8. because they are whiny loser bitches.

And the federal government told Blanco they were sending 5,000 buses to NO.

[radar]

11. Avoiding the truth

School buses are a local gov't property which falls within the mayor's grasp to control; organizing the private owned buses required help from outside the LA boundary and thus, pushing the responsibility into the federal hands.

Since the guy running the national gov't is never at fault, and his lackeys are equally blameless, having been picked by his holiness, someone has to get targeted for the finger-pointing.

[MissMarple]

27. And school buses belong to the school district, not the city.

And Republicans want to obscure the fact that the VAST majority of the New Orleans population were safely evacuated from the city. I'd like to see a good Republican city whose leaders spout the "individual responsibility" and "small government" mantras get every single one of their elderly, infirm, disabled and poor out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Most of those buses in that picture

didn't run. That's what I read right after the hurricane.

[TahitiNut]

13. It's the "Blame the Victim"mentality ... the favored refuge of the greedy

First, the evacuation plan didn't call for the use of school buses. School buses don't have restroom facilities, air conditioning, and have far less road worthiness than commercial transit buses.
Second, FEMA promised highway transit buses with restroom facilities, and didn't deliver. There weren't enough drivers for one thing.
Lastly, where were they to go? The Mayor of New Orleans doesn NOT have the jurisdiction to arrange for shelter outside of his jurisdiction. That's a logistics problem FEMA is supposed to handle - and didn't.

[Lasher]

14. Here, throw this back at them

Oct 20, 2005
By: LA Times

Chertoff Says FEMA's Lack of Planning to Blame

The Federal Emergency Management Agency's lack of planning, not the failures of state and local officials, was to blame for much of what went wrong with the government's response to Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told member of Congress today.

The assessment by the most senior administration official to answer legislators' questions since the hurricane struck in late August contrasted sharply with testimony offered earlier by former FEMA Director Michael Brown. Brown had blamed the "dysfunction" of Louisiana state and local officials for the problems that hobbled the relief effort.

"From my own experience, I don't endorse those views," Chertoff said.

He told lawmakers that he found the governors and mayors of the region to be responsive as the crisis unfolded.

http://www.dscc.org/news/latest/20051020_chertoff/

Chertoff admitted that FEMA, and not local officials, was to blame. Maybe you should ask your freeper friends why they can't do the same.

[Igel]

25. Much = all ?

The perils of deductive fallacies, revealed.

At best you've shown Chertoff and FEMA might be to blame, maybe even are probably to blame, and that's without putting Chertoff's comments in a political context.

[Lasher]

28. I invoked a legitimate appeal to authority

As such, my main argument was not fallacious, since Chertoff is a legitimate authority on the subject, as Brown's former supervisor, and is seen by most reasonable people as qualified to make the claim that I supplied. His testimony is even more compelling when you consider he would likely have motives to assert that the opposite is true.

There are those who wish to blame local officials, the victims themselves, and anyone else besides Federal government entities for all failures associated with the Katrina disaster. In this they seek to conceal the Bush administration's remarkable incompetence and irresponsibility. I believe I have helped to make that a difficult position for them to defend, which was my goal.

I admit my statement at the bottom was unfortunate, since I did imply that local officials were to blame for nothing. I don't believe this to be so, BTW, but I do believe FEMA and other Federal government entities deserve most of the blame. Regardless, I am guilty of the deductive fallacy - and probably also a false dilemma.

But we all have opportunities for improvement. As I have shown, my humble contribution makes a more effective argument than the 'at best, might, and maybe' assessment that you have offered.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnnyCougar]

16. This is for sure true? The busses weren't publicly owned?

If it is, this is the perfect thing to throw back at him.

[TheBaldyMan]

18. they would have been blockaded by Gretna's finest

it turns out that 1000's could have walked out over a dry route but were prevented by white police who didn't want a bunch of niggers rioting, murdering and looting when they crossed the bridge into the white suburb of Gretna.

The Socialist Worker newspaper in UK broke the story originally, the latest updated version can be found at this link:

How Katrina unleashed a storm of racism

edited for typos

[zbdent]

19. If Nagin had used the buses

freepers would be crying about the waste of taxpayers' money for use of people who could have found their way out on their own dime . . .

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

20. Plus, there are 2 bus issues

This issue, about evacuation BEFORE Katrina and there's also the issue of evacuation AFTER Katrina. See this thread.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2384217

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Pots calling the kettle black

Yeah, they screwed up. They ALL screwed up. It was a massive failure of govenment all around.

[bunkerbuster1]

23. State and local! State and local! Braaak!

Want to have some fun? See how often Freeper LTEs, even today, use the term "state and local officials" to describe those who are/were to blame for the Katrina disaster.

This has been a Rethug talking point pretty much since the days of "heckuva job."

Remember, it's all about what the STATEANDLOCAL people did; the feds were blameless.

And in order for this to work you have to continue to feed people myths, like that it would've been simple to have evacuated 100,000 people who DID NOT WANT TO LEAVE.

[Igel]

26. The debate's fairly ridiculous.

Nagin: first line of defense. But since he's black and nominally dem, he's not to be considered a line of defense at all. Turned down buses? Blameless. Didn't actually make sure the planning board had an evacuation plan under the last revision? Blameless. Why? Previous planning boards had no plan, so how could he? NOLA signed off on the evacuation and emergency plan.

Blanco: second line of defense. State evacuation plan went to pieces. Not responsible for things beyond her borders? True, in part, but Baton Rouge and Shrevesport had capabilities she didn't use, and they're *within* her borders. Then again, you wait until 11 or so hours before the drop-dead hour and your options are limited. We may defend her claims to be fully in charge, but when it comes to things going wrong, she has absolutely no responsibility in the matter. Let's call it "radical consistency." In any event, her plan was screwed. LA signed off on it.

FEMA: third line of defense, when local and state agencies fail. Primary role before disaster: advising on the production of an emergency plan, not revising the plan to suit authorities in DC that don't know what the facts on the ground are. Primary role in a disaster: supporting local/state folk with materiel and manpower, as required. For FEMA to send in people on their own and decide what supplies are needed where, deliver and distribute them on their own, and make all the decisions for evacuation, is to usurp control: it's what DUers wanted, it seems. FEMA may usurp control formally: But DU, by and large, didn't want that. FEMA must have no control lest they get political points for it, or even worse, dems get political anti-points, and yet FEMA must be held responsible as though they had been formally and fully in control.

It's not about saving people with some DUers and repubs, it's about political basketball. Nagin got many things right; Blanco got many things right; even FEMA didn't get everything wrong. But dems must be perfect, else they're unmitigated evil, and we can't have that: so their faults must be denied. Repubs must be completely wrong at all times, else they're not unmitigated evil: so their faults must be exaggerated. If you flip the partisan polarity, you flip the argumentation.

You know, I've really taken a liking to the word "truthiness." Not to what it entails for American discourse, but it's so fricking a propos in so many situations.

[stepnw1f]

24. Because FEMA Told Them To WAIT!!!

FEMA's buses: subcontractor farmed it out; massive confusion; Landstar to blame?


Remember http://katrinacoverage.com/2005/09/19/blanco-where-were-the-500-fema-promised-buses.html">"Blanco: where were the 500 FEMA-promised buses?" Well, http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0509230350sep23,1,1064399.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true">"Offer of buses fell between the cracks" has the shocking details.

A Florida trucking logistics company called Landstar Express America had a contract with FEMA that was worth up to $100 million per year to provide buses for evacuation purposes.

On Sunday, Aug. 28, Landstar apparently contacted a company called Carey Limousine asking them about the availability of buses.

Landstar found Carey by looking at their website.


http://katrinacoverage.com/2005/09/24/femas-buses-subcontractor-farmed-it-out-massive-confusion-landstar-to-blame.html">read more...

[Octafish]

29. FEMA Busses run by GOP connected scuzzbuckets.

Why Didn't the Buses Come?

Bush-Linked Florida Company and the Katrina Evacuation Fiasco

By TIM SHORROCK
Counterpunch
January 21 / 22, 2006
Memphis.

The U.S. Department of Transportation may hold the key to one of the biggest unanswered questions from Hurricane Katrina:

Why did it take nearly a week for the Federal Emergency Management Agency to mobilize private buses to evacuate thousands of city residents desperately seeking rescue from the horrific conditions in the Superdome, the Convention Center and the open tarmac of Interstate 10?

Clues to that mystery will come in the form of an audit into a FEMA contract for hurricane evacuation services awarded in 2002 to the Federal Aviation Administration. An initial report on the audit, which was quietly opened last October by the DOT's Office of Inspector General, is nearing completion and will be released to the public soon, a DOT official told Reconstruction Watch.

So far, the IG's office suspects that that the FAA "did not verify that the services were performed," said David Barnes, a public affairs officer in the Office of Inspector General. As a result, the IG "has raised questions about the FAA's internal controls."

The audit is also focused on Landstar Express America Inc. A trucking and logistics company based in Jacksonville, Fla., Landstar is a politically well-connected corporation that's risen to the top of the U.S. transportation industry without actually owning any trucks. Chairman Jeffrey Crowe served until recently as head of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and last April Florida Gov. Jeb Bush appointed him to his Advisory Council on Base Realignment and Closure.

SNIP...

Landstar, however, has not been reticent to talk about its profits from the contract. Last October, the company disclosed that $129.8 million of the $676 million it earned in revenue during the third quarter of 2005 was directly attributable to its "disaster relief" contract with "the United States Department of Transportation/Federal Aviation Administration."

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/shorrock01212006.html